.38-40 boolit movement in tubular magazine?

[8683jb]

Howdy all. I'm thinking about loading some .38-40's for my '73 Winchester and am planning to use smokeless powder this time. The rifle is in excellent condition and was built in 1888. I was considering a light load using 7.5 gr. of Unique powder with a 176 gr. cast boolit. The boolits were cast in a Lyman mould no. 401043. In order to make the maximum OAL of the cartridge, I have to seat the boolit on the ogive rather than in the crimping groove. That'd be OK for black powder since the case would be full enough to make a slightly compressed load which would prevent the boolits in the cartridges in the tube magazine from moving back into the case under recoil. But with a tiny amount of smokeless powder, there's a lot of empty space in there and nothing to support the base of the boolit. But maybe with such a light load it wouldn't matter? Is this particular boolit going to have any movement problems with this load of smokeless powder? Thanks for any help or advice!

[cwtebay]

Following this

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[fcvan]

I would love a carbine, it isn't in the stars, sigh. I do own the Ruger OM 38-40/40 S&W with a 4 5/8" barrel. I bought it new but it sat on the shelf for many years. So long in fact, that the cylinder had dust bunnies in it. Store owner said she bought a set of three, mine, a 44 sp/44 mag, and a 45Colt/45 ACP. A friend actually got the 44. I later got a 45 Colt, but no second cylinder.

Anyway, she said it never really got looked at because of the odd caliber, and then said she'd go get the box with the second cylinder. Score! I picked it up for the listed price on the tag, same as when she got it, $200 less than they went for that day. She honored it. The day I got it out of jail, I rushed to the range and popped off a bow of 40 S&W. Ordered dies and brass, prefer 38-40 loaded with 7 gr of Unique under the Lee 401-175, which for me weighs 180.

Although I don't have to worry about set back I always concern myself with crimps jump. With the light load I did not experience crimp jump, even though they were not crimped. The comment about set back being prevented by BP loads has been mentioned before. A crimp groove design might bring piece of mind but just works the brass more. Good luck!

[Walks]

I load for .44-40 using an old Lyman die set from the 1960's. I don't think the modern made die sets size the brass down far enough. I use the #42798 bullet, the "big brother" to your #40043. The expander in my old die set is smaller then the one in the RCBS Cowboy set I in got in 1997 or my older set from 1987. So is the Hornady die set I bought in 2009. I crimp over the ogive, a tight bullet pull is what will stop setback in the case, not crimp. Get someone to turn down an expander a couple thousands for you.
The Lee FCD is NOT an Answer. Try and find an old Lyman die set in the Black box. I know of one Cowboy Shooter that only neck-sized his .38-40 brass in a .40S&W carbide die. I was just told about it, I have not seen it done. If you're confused by my method, please ask Outpost75 for help. He may have ways i don't know.

[cwtebay]

I load for .44-40 using an old Lyman die set from the 1960's. I don't think the modern made die sets size the brass down far enough. I use the #42798 bullet, the "big brother" to your #40043. The expander in my old die set is smaller then the one in the RCBS Cowboy set I in got in 1997 or my older set from 1987. So is the Hornady die set I bought in 2009. I crimp over the ogive, a tight bullet pull is what will stop setback in the case, not crimp. Get someone to turn down an expander a couple thousands for you.
The Lee FCD is NOT an Answer. Try and find an old Lyman die set in the Black box. I know of one Cowboy Shooter that only neck-sized his .38-40 brass in a .40S&W carbide die. I was just told about it, I have not seen it done. If you're confused by my method, please ask Outpost75 for help. He may have ways i don't know.This is why I wanted to follow this.
I don't understand why the Lee FCD isn't effective here?
And also you mentioned crimping over the ogive, is the picture here what you mean?
Apologies for my hijacking this thread (and my ignorance!)https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210114/2ada0d7801e80eca458b9d9b8a67cc1f.jpg

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[Winger Ed.]

Would it be practical to shorten the brass until roll crimping at the case mouth could catch the groove?
Or if it would still feed & function with a longer OAL by enough to use the crimp groove.

In a handful of range brass one time I found several .41Mag cases about a full 1/8th inch shorter than the spec.
I always wondered if some one had cut them down for a special purpose or similar problem to yours.

[Wayne Smith]

Bullet setback in tubular magazines is not a function of recoil so much as it is a function of spring pressure. You are right to be concerned. Your choices appear to be three - 1) trim your brass as mentioned above, or 2) get a different mold, or 3) load with the Holy Black. The same problem appears in the 44-40, the traditional boolit design has no crimp groove because it was not needed with black powder.

[onelight]

What Wayne said , when you operate the lever the spring forces the weight of all the rounds in the magazine down on the bullet of the one at the bottom trying to push it back in the case.

[8683jb]

Thank you guys for all the good information and suggestions. I hadn't considered the magazine spring forces. I can turn the expander die if neccesary, but the boolits seem to be a pretty tight fit. I think I'll give it try as-is and if the boolits move I'll try that or trim the cases. I appreciate the help! No problem on the thread, cwtebay - and yes, your drawing is what I meant.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Howdy all. I'm thinking about loading some .38-40's for my '73 Winchester and am planning to use smokeless powder this time. The rifle is in excellent condition and was built in 1888. I was considering a light load using 7.5 gr. of Unique powder with a 176 gr. cast boolit. The boolits were cast in a Lyman mould no. 401043. In order to make the maximum OAL of the cartridge, I have to seat the boolit on the ogive rather than in the crimping groove. That'd be OK for black powder since the case would be full enough to make a slightly compressed load which would prevent the boolits in the cartridges in the tube magazine from moving back into the case under recoil. But with a tiny amount of smokeless powder, there's a lot of empty space in there and nothing to support the base of the boolit. But maybe with such a light load it wouldn't matter? Is this particular boolit going to have any movement problems with this load of smokeless powder? Thanks for any help or advice!

That load of 7.5 is the top end for that boolit. That is a black powder rifle considering the year it was built. I would start at the low end which is 6.2 gr. and work up. These loads are from the 4th edition of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. It is recommended to never start at the top end of a load.

[8683jb]

That load of 7.5 is the top end for that boolit. That is a black powder rifle considering the year it was built. I would start at the low end which is 6.2 gr. and work up. These loads are from the 4th edition of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. It is recommended to never start at the top end of a load.

Thank you. I was using info from another source and it showed 8 grs. to be a mediocre charge so I thought 7.5 was plenty conservative. I'll load 'em at 6.2 and leave it there. These are just for the fun of tipping over cans, squirrels, etc. I appreciate your info.

[gwpercle]

For tube magazine lever action rifle ... I would find a bullet that allows a nice roll crimp into a decent crimp groove . The pressure from the compressed magazine spring coupled with the recoil generated will conspire to shove those boolits into the case .
Lif's going to be lot simpler and you may save that 1888 made rifle from destruction if you fire a round that has the boolit shoved back into into the case .

It's always been my advice to load black powder built guns with black powder .
If you load with smokeless be careful and load safe.
Gary

[fredj338]

If you cant roll crimp, consider a smaller ID flare. Even 0.001" helps with neck tension. I used to load for a 44-40 lever gun & what I needed to do to keep bullets from being setback.

[8683jb]

I appreciate all your guys' information and advice. I think I'll stuff 'em with BP for now while I research different boolits, trimming the cases and/or turning down the expander. Thanks again!

[wwmartin]

Lee factory crimp, works for me and doesn't collapse the shoulder .
Bill

[mehavey]

See Tom's equivalent of the (discontinued) Lyman 401043
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=40-172L

Given Tom's dimensions...
Note that like many 1873 cartridges (44-40 example) a 1.6" OAL requires (and allows) a firm roll crimp right in the middle of the forward cleaning band.
Works in the 44-40 for me, `should work for your 38-40 as well.