What BHN for 30 cal rifle?

[Rickf1985]

I have looked all over on here and I know I have seen it before but I can't find it. What is the minimum hardness for gas checked bullets in a 30 cal? Might as well ask about 223 while I am at it in case I ever find a 225 sizing die. the 30 cal I don't plan to push beyond 2100-2300 FPS. The 223 I don't really know since I ave not looked into cast loads for that yet. I read the fryxell book end to end and it is all pistol, nothing at all about rifles.

[charlie b]

I use Lyman #2 or Hardball in my .308. ~16bhn with gas checks. I also powder coat.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

50/50 Clip on Wheel weights/pure plus 1% pewter, gas checked and powder coated shoots well (1.5-2 moa) at 1800 fps or so in 308 and 30-06. I don't have a hardness tester, but I estimate the hardness around 8-9 bhn.

[Dom]

For my 30-30 I cast a 165gr with GC. Cast from straight scrap WW. BHN of 11 according to my LBT tester. Does well at 1800 fps. Every rifle can be different. I drive straight WW bullets with GC thru my 25-20 & 32-20 at 1500 fps & are deadly accurate. You can also drop your WW bullets directly into cold water instead of air cooled. This will harden them a bit more. I would try a few bullets cast from WW first & see how they shoot. This will tell you if a harder bullet is needed or not.

[samari46]

I use wheel weights with 2% tin in my Moisins 7.62x54r 1700 fps no leading. Pretty sure I could raise the velocity another 200 or fps again with no leading. Frank

[toallmy]

I have settled on a 50/50 coww / pure for almost all my casting the fancy stuff gets a touch of tin added .
I don't shoot high velocity with cast rifle , but I can and do shoot 30 caliber up to 30-30 jacket book loads easily enough out of most of my 30 caliber rifles . 2-3 inch groups at a 100 are a reasonable expectation at 1800-2000 .
Smaller groups at higher velocity are achievable , but you will have to work to get them .

[charlie b]

FWIW, my .308Win bolt rifle shoots cast to less than 2MOA easily. Less than MOA is my goal when doing load development. I do most of my load testing at 200yd. Even Lee molds will work.

275055

PS the above load is around 1800fps. And, no, not all the groups are that size :) 1.5MOA is 'normal'.

[Larry Gibson]

Depends on what the bullet is used for and what accuracy level at what range it will be used.

#2 alloy WQ'd at 2900+ fps from a very specialized 30 caliber rifle. That's 11 shots in just under 6" (slightly less than moa) at 600 yards.

275057

Here's from a M1903A1 match rifle with the 30 XCB out of the 30-06 at 1900 fps +/- [2 sighters, then sight adjustment and 20 shots "for record" at 100 yards].

275058

[Burnt Fingers]

Which 30 cal rifle?

30 carbine or 300 Ultra mag?

It does make a difference.

[Rich/WIS]

Alloy of approximately 92-6-2, not sure of BHN at up to 1600 fps. GC and XLOX 2500 lube. Good accuracy and no leading. Could probably go a little softer at that velocity. Bullets shape matters, bore riding forepart stays guided but if bullet is not a good fit or design it can slump if not a hard alloy.

[Wisest.fool]

I second charlie b. I use #2 or wheel weights w/2% tin water quenched gas checked and powder coated. I have pushed them to 2500 fps with no leading from multiple 308 rifles. Accuracy was best for me at 2300 with 200gn(1.25 MOA) and 2450 with 168gn(1 MOA). I also water quench after powder coat baking.

Also the lee ctl312-160-tl in a ruger ranch 7.62x39 i have pushed to 1900 fps and its 1.5MOA to 2 MOA with no leading.

[Rickf1985]

LOT's of info! The problem is that I asked what the minimum BHN I can go is. To be fair I can figure out the hardness from what was given. Big problem with wheel weights is that there are none! I am in NJ and even if I could find a place that was willing to give/sell me any they are 75% steel and more trouble than it is worth for the tiny amount you get. I have a large amount of pure and I have 50 lbs. of lino coming in. After that it is going to have to be bought from Rotometals for blending in with the pure to get where I need to be. So needless to say I do not want to try to get to 16 if I only need 10. The guns I am using are mainly my 03A3 and possibly my CMP Special Garand. All the boolits will be gas checked.

[44magLeo]

Thier are a lot of places online that sell wheel weights. Some as wheel weights, others as ingots. Look in the swappin and sellin section on here. I have found ok deals on ebay.
I blend my COWW's with pure and a bit of tin. For just targets the 50/50 blend works ok. Siome like heat treating them. For hunting I go a bit softer. As soft as 30/70 WW to pure. This depends on the rifle. In rifles that can get to higher velocities the harder can still expand, on rifles that can't the softer helps expansion.
I have found boolit fit is more important than boolit hardness to prevent gas cutting that leads to leading. Proper fit also increases accuracy.
Boolit fit is King.
With proper boolit fit you will be surprized just how soft a boolit can be and still shoot well.
Get your boolit to be .001 less than throat diameter will keep the boolit centered in the bore and when loaded so the front driving band firmly touches the lands will properly seal the boolit to the bore.
If a nose rider the nose should be very lightly engraved by the rifling. A bit looser is better than a bit tight. Don't want to pull the boolit when you unlooad.
Leo

[bangerjim]

12 + PC = success for me!

But FIT is far more critical than the old school thoughts on hardness.

[Rickf1985]

Thier are a lot of places online that sell wheel weights. Some as wheel weights, others as ingots. Look in the swappin and sellin section on here. I have found ok deals on ebay.
I blend my COWW's with pure and a bit of tin. For just targets the 50/50 blend works ok. Siome like heat treating them. For hunting I go a bit softer. As soft as 30/70 WW to pure. This depends on the rifle. In rifles that can get to higher velocities the harder can still expand, on rifles that can't the softer helps expansion.
I have found boolit fit is more important than boolit hardness to prevent gas cutting that leads to leading. Proper fit also increases accuracy.
Boolit fit is King.
With proper boolit fit you will be surprized just how soft a boolit can be and still shoot well.
Get your boolit to be .001 less than throat diameter will keep the boolit centered in the bore and when loaded so the front driving band firmly touches the lands will properly seal the boolit to the bore.
If a nose rider the nose should be very lightly engraved by the rifling. A bit looser is better than a bit tight. Don't want to pull the boolit when you unlooad.
Leo
I bought some "wheel weight ingots" one time. Never again! They came out at dead soft. With ingots you have no idea where they came from, it is just the word of the seller. And looking at the stories of people that buy wheel weights anymore it is just like getting them from the scrapyard or tire place. You never know what you are going to get and there is no returning them. When you do see them advertised as "Sorted" wheel weights the price certainly reflects that and it is usually 3.00 plus a pound. If I am going to spend that much I will buy from Rotometals and know for 100% sure of exactly what I am getting. I know I sound negative but I have been burned too many times and I simply do not have the money to keep throwing away like that. Now, if anyone here has sorted wheel weights for a decent price I am listening! I watch the swapping and selling section and when a good deal comes up it is gone in 15 minutes or less!!! I don't know how people find out that fast other than sit at their computers all day hitting the refresh button every 5 minutes! Sorry, even though I am disabled I have somewhat of a life. I have got to move around to stay somewhat mobile.

[gwpercle]

50/50 Clip on Wheel weights/pure plus 1% pewter, gas checked and powder coated shoots well (1.5-2 moa) at 1800 fps or so in 308 and 30-06. I don't have a hardness tester, but I estimate the hardness around 8-9 bhn.

What Silvercreek says but I don't powder coat them , lube with Lithi-Bee lube while seating the gas checks , all are air cooled and loaded 1600 to 1800 fps velocity ... I have no idea of what the bhn is . Loads are for accuracy 1600 to 1800 fps is the sweet spot for my 30 cal. rifles . 30-30 win. , 30-06 Springfield , 7.5 Swiss ... all sized .309 and 303 British (it's almost 30 cal. sized .314).
The 50-50 alloy works better (is more accurate) than boolits cast from straight COWW's .
I don't water drop or heat treat and quench ... just cast and air cool .
Gary

[Green Lizzard]

12 bhn seems to work for me, lots of ways to get there

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

Rickf1985

The BHN requirement can vary considerably depending on the what cartridge you are shooting and what kind of shooting you are doing at what ranges. Everything from indoor gallery loads shot at 10 ft to 50+ yards, to target loads shot from 100 to 1000 yards, to full bore top end hunting loads for use to 200+ yards, to every kind of shooting in between.

Can you give a bit of that information as to what your needs are?

[Goofy]

Larry asks valid questions and I won't presume to know more...wait.....he might have forgotten more than I've learned...

But I have been plinking with my .30-30s and up to the point that I've explored I've had no issues with alloys in the BHN 12 range. Lead on hand, lino on the way, it's easy enough to get there. I do think that fit is more important that hardness at the level I'm playing with. Old Model 94 shot these at 50 yards and it's good enough for the conditions I hunt in.
https://i.imgur.com/upvGZ9n.jpg


Take a look at this site for guidance on recipes.
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

[lotech]

I use three gas check bullet designs (approximately 200 grains) for all .30 caliber rifle shooting, from 7.62x39 through .30-06. I keep velocities in the 1600 - 1800 fps range. A BHN of about 12 - 14 works better than anything harder. Years ago, I read a column in the CBA magazine where the editor mentioned that the softest bullet that doesn't lead the bore for the intended velocity will usually be the most accurate. I've found this to be good advice.

[WinchesterM1]

275112

This is with a TC compass 308 1/12 twist at 100 yards with 75/25 ww/pb

[onelight]

275112

This is with a TC compass 308 1/12 twist at 100 yards with 75/25 ww/pb
Excellent !

[Rickf1985]

Rickf1985

The BHN requirement can vary considerably depending on the what cartridge you are shooting and what kind of shooting you are doing at what ranges. Everything from indoor gallery loads shot at 10 ft to 50+ yards, to target loads shot from 100 to 1000 yards, to full bore top end hunting loads for use to 200+ yards, to every kind of shooting in between.

Can you give a bit of that information as to what your needs are?

Larry, My needs are all target, my hunting days are over since I can't get out there. I shoot a Springfield 03A3 30-06with a 1 in 10 barrel, a M1 garand, this is a CMP Special with a new Criterian barrel also in 30-06 and 1 in 10. I have a AR-15 in 223 with a 1 in 8 twist and I completely forgot my 30-30 which I don't know what the twist is on that one. The molds I have are 115 grain, 155 and 170. All are gas checks. The ranges I shoot at start at 100 and go to 300 only because that is as long as our range is. I prefer 200 as that is what I was taught on with the 03A3 when I was about 9 years old. I do like to stretch it out when I can but I shoot iron sights and seeing 300 yard targets is getting tough at my age.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have looked all over on here and I know I have seen it before but I can't find it. What is the minimum hardness for gas checked bullets in a 30 cal? Might as well ask about 223 while I am at it in case I ever find a 225 sizing die. the 30 cal I don't plan to push beyond 2100-2300 FPS. The 223 I don't really know since I ave not looked into cast loads for that yet. I read the fryxell book end to end and it is all pistol, nothing at all about rifles.

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

If you scroll halfway down the Page (linked to above), you will see two charts:
"Approximate "Maximum" Chamber Pressure For Lead Alloys (PSI)"
"Bullet BHN / "Minimum" Chamber Pressure For Lead Alloys (PSI)"

These contain "ballpark" type info and are not specific, because there is so many other factors to figure in. Same goes for figuring out the pressure of your specific load ...When you look at your published loading data, most manuals have Pressure listed for starting and Max loads. Usually, you can surmise your Load's pressure close enough for guessing BHN needed, even though Pressure rarely increases linearly and your gun is NOT the gun they used for testing.

[Conditor22]

Criterion barrel also in 30-06 and 1 in 10. I have an AR-15 in 223 with a 1 in 8 twist and I completely forgot my 30-30

COWW + 2% (tin) should be fine in the 30-06 and 30-30, Quenched COWW will be good in the 223.

FIT IS THE KEY!!! IF the boolits are too small you will have a mess. Slug or chamber cast your barrel and start at .002 offer that diameter.

[For target shooting I go for the lightest accurate loads, why waste powder and hurt yourself just to have fun shooting]

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, My needs are all target, my hunting days are over since I can't get out there. I shoot a Springfield 03A3 30-06with a 1 in 10 barrel, a M1 garand, this is a CMP Special with a new Criterian barrel also in 30-06 and 1 in 10. I have a AR-15 in 223 with a 1 in 8 twist and I completely forgot my 30-30 which I don't know what the twist is on that one. The molds I have are 115 grain, 155 and 170. All are gas checks. The ranges I shoot at start at 100 and go to 300 only because that is as long as our range is. I prefer 200 as that is what I was taught on with the 03A3 when I was about 9 years old. I do like to stretch it out when I can but I shoot iron sights and seeing 300 yard targets is getting tough at my age.

Great, now we can get there from here. Let's just say your 30 cals are all in rifles with 10" twist barrels. You can develop one load that will work in all your 30-06 rifles. You'll want to keep the velocity under 1940 fps (the RPM Threshold for a 10" twist) yet have enough pressure to adequately function the M1. I suggest using the 170 gr bullet over 4895 powder with a dacron filler. Start at 28 gr and work up in 1/2 gr increments until functional reliability in the M1 is 100%. That should occur in the 1800 - 1940 fps range and will probably be the most accurate load for the M1. Then test that load in the M1903A3 for accuracy. It should prove accurate there also.

The 30-30 will have a 12" twist if an original Winchester made M94. If a Jap made one then a 10" twist. If a Marlin, Savage or other make probably a 10" twist. The 170 gr bullet will also do nicely there with 4895 also. Start at 23 gr and work up to 27 gr.

The 223 AR with the 8" twist can be problematic with cast bullets. A 60 - 70 gr cast bullet with a GC will be best there. I find RL7 and H4895 with a dacron filler to work best keeping the velocity under the RPM Threshold while giving 100% reliable functioning. Truthfully I quit using cast bullets in my 223 gas guns and just use milsurp M193 55 gr FMJs....easier on the frustration level that way. Especially if shooting past 100 yards.

Now to the real question regarding BHN. I suggest you scrounge up some lead, as close to pure as possible. Then buy some #2 alloy from Roto-Metals. Mix the #2 with the lead at 50/50. If you are a good scrounge that should cut the cost in half. It also will give you an excellent 95/2.5/2.5 alloy which will give you a BHN of 2 - 14 +/- if AC'd or 18 - 20 if WQ'd. Both those BHNs are very good for the loads mentioned.

[Rickf1985]

Great, now we can get there from here. Let's just say your 30 cals are all in rifles with 10" twist barrels. You can develop one load that will work in all your 30-06 rifles. You'll want to keep the velocity under 1940 fps (the RPM Threshold for a 10" twist) yet have enough pressure to adequately function the M1. I suggest using the 170 gr bullet over 4895 powder with a dacron filler. Start at 28 gr and work up in 1/2 gr increments until functional reliability in the M1 is 100%. That should occur in the 1800 - 1940 fps range and will probably be the most accurate load for the M1. Then test that load in the M1903A3 for accuracy. It should prove accurate there also.

The 30-30 will have a 12" twist if an original Winchester made M94. If a Jap made one then a 10" twist. If a Marlin, Savage or other make probably a 10" twist. The 170 gr bullet will also do nicely there with 4895 also. Start at 23 gr and work up to 27 gr.

The 223 AR with the 8" twist can be problematic with cast bullets. A 60 - 70 gr cast bullet with a GC will be best there. I find RL7 and H4895 with a dacron filler to work best keeping the velocity under the RPM Threshold while giving 100% reliable functioning. Truthfully I quit using cast bullets in my 223 gas guns and just use milsurp M193 55 gr FMJs....easier on the frustration level that way. Especially if shooting past 100 yards.

Now to the real question regarding BHN. I suggest you scrounge up some lead, as close to pure as possible. Then buy some #2 alloy from Roto-Metals. Mix the #2 with the lead at 50/50. If you are a good scrounge that should cut the cost in half. It also will give you an excellent 95/2.5/2.5 alloy which will give you a BHN of 2 - 14 +/- if AC'd or 18 - 20 if WQ'd. Both those BHNs are very good for the loads mentioned.

NOW we are getting somewhere! Larry, you mention 4895 with a dacron filler. Well, 4895 right now is sort of like gold hens teeth! Ain't none to be found. I have been using BL-C2 as a replacement. But I am curious what you mean about the dacron filler? Those loads sound about right because I remember back when I was shooting the cast boolits with my dad the loads were not real heavy, and they were EXTREMLY accurate! My 30-30 is actually a Sears Model 100. From the research I have done that gun was a rebranded Model 94 made by Winchester. On the 223, it figures you would say 60-70 grain boolit, I just bought a 6 hole 55 grain mold! Dammit!!!!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

6 hole 55 grain mold
Good news, you can expect that Lee mold to drop a 60gr boolit, with 94-3-3 alloy (or similar) ;)

[MaxJon]

Depends on what the bullet is used for and what accuracy level at what range it will be used.

#2 alloy WQ'd at 2900+ fps from a very specialized 30 caliber rifle. That's 11 shots in just under 6" (slightly less than moa) at 600 yards.

275057

Here's from a M1903A1 match rifle with the 30 XCB out of the 30-06 at 1900 fps +/- [2 sighters, then sight adjustment and 20 shots "for record" at 100 yards].

275058

That 600yard group is amazing!! I need that group at 500m from my purpose built 3006.

[fcvan]

Many fine points presented here. My 180 model Ruger Mini 14 is from back when they were 1 - 10" twist. 2250 fps shouldn't work, but they did. I used a Lyman book load for the Lyman 225-415, just for fun shooting. When I built an AR 15, the slowest barrel I could find was 1 -9", but that still worked fine. First range day with the AR 15 I put 5 in close to an inch, accurate rifles are fun shooting. When I started powder coating, and put 5 under an inch, maybe .8". I think I saved a picture of that, but I think it's on a back up drive.

Those pesky gas checks are a pain, making them even more so. I bought an NOE mold that is designed plain based and just for PC. Allow was and still is 50/50 clip on WW and pure lead. I have shot a lot of these through the Ruger and the AR 15 with no lead build up in the gas operating systems. I also have a 24" single shot, and with the same loads listed above see a consistent 2450 fps, with an ES of less than 15.

As far as RPM threshold, there is some truth to that. I took this in mind when working up my loads and choosing a twist rate. If I could reasonably obtain a 1 - 12" for the AR 15, I certainly would. I consulted a barrel maker, but the cost was about the same as my entire AR build. Not worth it to me, hence the 24" single shot which has a fixed 4x long eye relief applied. Almost as accurate as with jacketed hand loads. I prefer the dramatic effect the cast boolits have on tin cans, and the occasionally unlucky squirrel. I prefer tin cans, I can still recycle them after. Squirrels, well you would need a bunch of them to make a good batch of chili. Not that many at the range, and besides, they never did anything to me. :)