OK, I'm confused. Help straighten me out. [Archive]

BJK

01-06-2021, 12:50 AM

I've been looking at molds for .300BLK subsonic. I found an MP mold that casts .311D bullets. Clearly these will need to be sized after coating them. I think my understanding of that is correct. Yes?

I found a LEE mold that casts .309D bullets. If the bullet needs to be larger than the bore how can these be sized? What am I missing?

TIA

Czech_too

01-06-2021, 01:21 AM

It's been my experience that most moulds, regardless of maker, will drop a larger than designated boolit. This difference may be as little as .001 to as much as .003
Factors to consider here are the temp. of the melt(lead) and the temp. of the mould. The higher the temp. the more expansion, material wise, of the mould. The same can be said of the melt(lead).

Rcmaveric

01-06-2021, 07:59 AM

While most mold makers mark their molds by the diameter of the bullet they drops. Lee seams to mark theirs by the bore they are designed for.

Regardless of maker. I always verify actual bullet diameter. Alot of things affect bullet diameter like alloy and casting Temps. Its not uncommon for diameter to be different than whats labeled.

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ABJ

01-06-2021, 08:49 AM

GhostHawk

01-06-2021, 09:05 AM

There is also one other option. To "bump" them up then size them.

Even giving one a tap with a rubber mallet to seat a gas check will bump them up "some"
More so with softer alloys.

They can also be increased in size in the bore. Called "Obteration" This was used in many black powder guns.

Rcmaveric

01-06-2021, 10:22 AM

The main three corporate mold makers use a specific alloy to determine the as cast size.(RCBS,Lyman and Lee.) Magma uses 92-2-6. Lyman uses Lyman #2, not sure what lee or RCBS use.
I think you would be better served using Accurate Molds because you spec the mold to your alloy. This will take the surprise factor out.

My experiences with Lee rifle boolits, and all Lyman and RCBS throw a little small with my alloy which is 94-2-4. Conversely Lee handgun molds seem to throw a little large, go figure.
TonyI forgot about that. Alot of the mold makers have on their websites what alloy they use or what alloy the mold is calibrated for.

Some of the makers will allow you to specify your alloy for the mold.

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BJK

01-06-2021, 10:52 AM

Thanks gents!

FWIW, at this time I'm planning on subsonic loads and COWW for lead, Hi-Tek coated bullets. I may eventually want to go supersonic with cast but I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

edit: So I just placed a BO for the LEE mold. I can't cast anything until winter relaxes it's grip and I should have by the time that happens. Now I need to find a push through sizer. Like I did with the 9mm sizers should I order a range? It's for .300BLK (at this time, but maybe other .308 firearms in the future) so I assume I want .308-.311 would that be correct? Any changes you'd make to that? What I see available are .308, .309, and then it jumps to .311.

Rcmaveric

01-06-2021, 11:20 AM

Cast bullet sizing is a debated subject. My personal opinion is to go with the largest that will chamber reliably. The more support the bullet has the better.

Only 30 cal I own is a 30-30. Its throat diameter is .310 and that is what I size to. However, 9mm calibers i have several different cartridges and multiple fire arms of each. They all have .358 throat so I only needed one diameter sizer.

So just buy the mold and then buy additional sizes as and when needed. I always look for a bullet designed for the intended cartridge.

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BJK

01-06-2021, 11:42 AM

Rcmaveric

01-06-2021, 01:21 PM

I would roll with the Lee mold. Measure the the throat diameter of the gun and order that sizer.

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Burnt Fingers

01-06-2021, 01:44 PM

A lot of people have had poor results with that Lee design.

I have the MP and it shoots much better than the Lee in my gun. Also the boolits out of my Lee are undersized. They barely make .309

Conditor22

01-06-2021, 02:11 PM

I really like this boolit for 300 B0 subsonic https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/308-311/311-242-fn-j3/311-242-fn-j3-5-cavity-gc-whisper/

I shoot it without adding a GC and it's a tack driver over 700X, 2400, H110 and 1680

My guns like 300 BO boolits sized to .309.

I started with lee push through sizing dies then switched to NOE sizing bushings

With NOE, once you buy the bushing body Push Through Size Die Body https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/sizing-tools/bushing-push-through-size-die/push-through-size-die-body/

The 30Cal .309 Body Bushing (B309) cost $9.75 per size change https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/sizing-tools/bushings/30cal-bushings/30cal-309-body-bushing-b309/

and you only need 1 30Cal Push Rod (30PR) $7.50 for all 30 cal boolits (lee & now pushrods are interchangeable.

The NOE system takes much less room to store. :)

To be really sure where to start in finding the size best for your barrel doing a chamber cast (pound cast or pour cast) or pound casting the barrel is the way to go.

now you get into finding the best diameter boolit for the alloy/hardness of boolit for how hard you want to push the boolit ie finding what your gun likes best.

notenoughguns

01-06-2021, 03:57 PM

I'm just trying to make sure I have what I need. I don't trust todays changing political winds.

This is the LEE mold I B/Oed (see link below). It's definitely for .300BLK. So is the MP mold that I have my eye on and that's an 8 cavity mold designed for production.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010217751?pid=938614

I have this mould and it cast .307 with my alloy ( range lead + 2% tin ) and by the way , THIS is a BOAT TAIL type bullet not meant for a gas check .

Forrest r

01-06-2021, 04:26 PM

Bought 1 of those lee 230gr bo bullet molds to play around with in 3 different 308w's. Never did find a load that was worth the powder I burned trying to find something that would work.

popper

01-06-2021, 04:28 PM

Accurate 31-220D looks good for BO, just get PB. Profile of 31-185D works well in mine, just get longer body - it's similar to 150 GD ogive profile with blunt nose, Tom doesn't cut smaller than 0.18 meplat. I've heard the Lee does OK if GC added - the boat tail is a pain. You might consider a 2,3 or 4 hole mould. Even a 6x for rile is not much fun to use. Lots of bullets, lots of culls.
Look at the SAAMI chamber for BO, match close to that. The Rem & Win BO 220 nose runs good from an AR, others it a crap shoot. Bolt or single shot eliminates the feed problems so other ogive is OK. If small, PC - if large, size.

BJK

01-06-2021, 05:22 PM

Thanks gents. I cancelled the LEE mold. I'm too new to this to have problems I'll need to try to figure out or to buy a mold that throws too small a D bullet for my lead.

BJK

01-06-2021, 05:48 PM

I'm awfully hesitant about that big flat meplat on the Accurate mold Popper, but I bookmarked it.

Conditor, your NOE bullet is also bookmarked.

Anyone, would this mold be suitable for what I want?
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/308-311/311-222-rn-k3/

Burnt Fingers

01-07-2021, 02:10 PM

AndyC

01-12-2021, 03:24 AM

I have this one, the Taco mold: https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/308-311/tl310-225-rn-ce3/tl310-225-rn-ce3-4-cavity-pb-brass/

I bought it after watching this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5aG-Nu9qis

GoldieMI

01-12-2021, 09:07 AM

AndyC

01-12-2021, 11:45 AM

I really like it - it doesn't keyhole in my cheapo .300 BLK barrel and it's accurate.

https://i.imgur.com/p9XVQg3.jpg

GoldieMI

01-12-2021, 10:04 PM

awesome. It's on my want list but it's currently sold out.

AndyC

01-12-2021, 10:27 PM

Any of his other similar molds should work fine too.

BJK

01-13-2021, 10:42 AM

I really like it - it doesn't keyhole in my cheapo .300 BLK barrel and it's accurate.

https://i.imgur.com/p9XVQg3.jpg

I noticed this very similar mould:
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/308-311/tl310-225-rn-ce3/tl310-225-rn-ce3-5-cavity-gc/

Now understand how new I am to casting, hence this question. The mould above uses a gas check. Would I be correct in thinking that I don't absolutely need to put a GC in place and it should still work fine at subsonic velocity? But if I want to push velocity at some point it's there making the mould more versatile? If this info' is required I plan on coating with Hi-Tek and I'll be using COWW.

AndyC

01-13-2021, 12:55 PM

Now understand how new I am to casting, hence this question.
No worries - I'm not new to casting but there are still many things about it that I've not experienced myself either ;)

I'm not sure how someone is going to be able to push a heavy 225-gr 30-cal bullet fast enough that it *needs* a gas-check anyway, but there probably some of those folks around ;)

As you've said, you don't need a gas-check at subsonic velocities/pressures - and I don't believe I've seen anyone complain about their accuracy when shot that way.

However, it might be a moot question after all - I went back a page on the NOE site and they have 2 plain-based molds available (as I write this) in the same style - a 4-cavity aluminum and a 5-cavity aluminum:

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/308-311/tl310-225-rn-ce3/

BJK

01-13-2021, 03:20 PM

Thanks. How did I miss that? :D

I was thinking more along the lines of using it in .308 Win.

Burnt Fingers

01-13-2021, 03:52 PM

No worries - I'm not new to casting but there are still many things about it that I've not experienced myself either ;)

I'm not sure how someone is going to be able to push a heavy 225-gr 30-cal bullet fast enough that it *needs* a gas-check anyway, but there probably some of those folks around ;)

As you've said, you don't need a gas-check at subsonic velocities/pressures - and I don't believe I've seen anyone complain about their accuracy when shot that way.

However, it might be a moot question after all - I went back a page on the NOE site and they have 2 plain-based molds available (as I write this) in the same style - a 4-cavity aluminum and a 5-cavity aluminum:

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/308-311/tl310-225-rn-ce3/

It's very easy to push a 225 gr 30 cal bullet to over 2000 fps. You might not be able to to it in a 300 Blackout but even in a Blackout you can get 225 gr bullets to around 1500 fps. Take a look at heavy bullet data and note the pressure is very low. It's just assumed that everyone want to run them slow.

Also I've found in my AR pistol that gas checked bullet is a bit more accurate.

BJK

01-13-2021, 06:17 PM

OK, I ordered the NOE 5 cavity mould with GC since it gives me the most options. It's backordered and I have no idea what their workload is like. Probably swamped and it'll take awhile. But I probably won't be able to melt lead for 2 more months anyway unless we get an early spring so no big deal.

Again, casting for .308 (.300 BLK first) and coating bullets. Ordering sizing dies now. I see Midway lists LEE .309 and then jumps to .311, no .310. I have no idea what size I'll need initially or down the road. Are those 2 sizes reasonable or would the .311 be unreasonable for .308? For $20 I just soon have it on hand if the need arises for other .308s in inventory unless it's just completely insane for .308.

Thanks for the guidance gents, and the patience. I will eventually learn, really, all in time. :D

I've seen punches listed with moulds (were they nose punches?) what are they for?

I'm loaded with questions. One that I was going to ask was about lightweight cast bullets at supersonic velocity and GCs. I found this article that sorta cleared it up for me. http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_10_GCkorPB.htm

I think I'm better off just buying jacketed bullets (110-125 gr) for ~2000fps. Since I strongly suspect (know?) that I'll be at the worst of both velocity and pressure out of a 10" barrel to get at that velocity, and it's in an AR15. He mentions in the article that those combined are tough on a cast bullet. I don't know if it'll give me gas port issues but I do know that I don't want to find out. I think I'll play it safe.

AndyC

01-13-2021, 07:58 PM

It's very easy to push a 225 gr 30 cal bullet to over 2000 fps. You might not be able to to it in a 300 Blackout but even in a Blackout you can get 225 gr bullets to around 1500 fps. Take a look at heavy bullet data and note the pressure is very low. It's just assumed that everyone want to run them slow.

Also I've found in my AR pistol that gas checked bullet is a bit more accurate.
Cool - I stand corrected, then - thanks! :)

AndyC

01-13-2021, 08:17 PM

Again, casting for .308 (.300 BLK first) and coating bullets. Ordering sizing dies now. I see Midway lists LEE .309 and then jumps to .311, no .310. I have no idea what size I'll need initially or down the road. Are those 2 sizes reasonable or would the .311 be unreasonable for .308? For $20 I just soon have it on hand if the need arises for other .308s in inventory unless it's just completely insane for .308.
.309 is by far the most common. Of course, you'll be told that one should "slug the bore" by driving a soft bullet through it and measuring, but 99% of folks with a .308 or .300 BLK will be much better-suited with a .309 sizer over a .311.

I've seen punches listed with moulds (were they nose punches?) what are they for?
Some lube-sizers push the cast bullet down into the sizing die by pressing down on the bullet's tip - RCBS, Lyman, etc - and to avoid damaging the nose-profile, a suitable shape of top-punch should be used.

See this short video: https://youtu.be/VVeb2YdJQZU?t=122

Other systems such as the Lee and Star sizer push the bullet by the base through the sizing die - Lee upwards, Star downwards - so no top-punch for the nose is needed.

Burnt Fingers

01-14-2021, 10:50 AM

NOE sells an awesome sizing setup that covers any possible size you could need.

AndyC

01-14-2021, 12:10 PM

Second that - I use the NOE adapter/dies in my Star sizer (punches in diff diameters from Lathesmith) and they're great.

BJK

01-14-2021, 12:41 PM

Thanks gents.

I looked at the NOE sizer but it made no sense to me and there was no guidance that I found as to what needed to be ordered, so I moved on.

Burnt Fingers

01-14-2021, 04:29 PM

You needed the die body, bushings, and a push rod.

All ya had to do was ask.

Die body https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/sizing-tools/bushing-push-through-size-die/push-through-size-die-body/001-push-through-size-die-body/

Bushing https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/sizing-tools/bushings/30cal-bushings/

Push rod https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/sizing-tools/bushings/30cal-bushings/30cal-push-rod-30pr/

The push rods for each caliber are buried in the bushings.

The startup cost for the NOE system is a bit more, but as you start to cast for more and more cartridges it starts becoming less expensive. I have a Star so I use the Star Adaptor. I started off with the die body and still have it.

BJK

01-14-2021, 06:54 PM

I may need to move on the NOE in the future. Right now I have the LEE sizers either in hand or shipped and on their way.

BJK

01-15-2021, 04:45 PM

Old guy brain fart evidence... I forgot to order NOE mould handles. Are their handles special for their moulds or can I use either Lyman, MP, or Lee handles?

SweetMk

01-15-2021, 04:57 PM

Old guy brain fart evidence... I forgot to order NOE mould handles. Are their handles special for their moulds or can I use either Lyman, MP, or Lee handles?

Don't feel bad,, I ordered the same mold (no GC, though),, and then sent NOE an email as to what I needed for a handle,,
I never heard back,, that was Monday,, the mold should be here (according to USPS) on Monday.

BJK

01-15-2021, 05:43 PM

Someone here should know for both of us. Their website does have a phone number that I didn't call (found under the logo if I remember correctly). I figured I'd try here first. No sizer fiasco similar to what happened days ago when I didn't ask. :D

I'm not too upset since I have time. I cast outdoors and even if we get an early spring that still means late March pretty much at the earliest (sooner would be better). A great deal can happen between now and late March. We get our worst storms then (Maine).

AndyC

01-15-2021, 06:06 PM

The jaws on the Lee handle are the same thickness as the NOE so they fit the slots, but there is a 1/8" difference between the spread of the jaws at the pins, with the NOE being smaller. The pin holes are approximately 1/64" smaller in the NOE Handles. The NOE wood grips are pinned in place, slightly shorter, slightly larger in diameter and the NOE handles weigh about a half ounce more. So the differences appear to be very little.

From this thread: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?287762-NOE-Mold-Handles-vs-Lee-Mold-Handles-on-NOE-Mould