Oh no !!! First PPb Shots Fired !!!

[FarNorth45]

Ok today was first paper patch day . 6 shots 80gr off the 2f .... shots all over the board at 150 yrds . Inspect bore and had leading issues .
Cleaned bore and pulled the bullets in the next 81gr load . I thought i did not wrap far enough up the ogive . Discovered that i had taper crimped to much and the paper tore off at the crimp and the bullet had a crimp grove .
Replaced bullets and made sure taper crimp was just right . Fired group and it was better , but still wild . Checked bore and found more lead . Cleaned again !! And i was cleaning between each shot with 2 wets and 2 drys by the way!!
Loaded 5 more rounds with 82 grs , wrapped new bullets further up ogive and sent them down range . I am now on the right path . Not yet there , but i feel good about it at least grouping at 150yrds . Checked bore ?? Free of lead and clean

274599
I checked outside the window , i actually had nice confetti laying everywhere..... i didn't on previous groups . Them little specs are paper lol

274600

After wrapping further up the ogive , this is what the base looks like... should i cover the base more ?
274601

Man i make longbows ,arrows aand knap arrow heads .... this just fits right in and i cant see me shooting GG again through the Shiloh lol .
I expect to see group tighten up with more powder and compression. I know using Goex , 530gr lyman Postell i was getting the best groups with 71grs compressed to .623 ..
I'm so addicted now !!! lol

[FarNorth45]

I also want to say Thanks to all you guys for sharing knowledge time after time . I hate to name anybody because there are quite a few of you guys that contribute and shorten the learning curve for all of us newbies......
Hopefully we can get better and help others on down the line also . We all gotta try to keep the old ways going !!!!

[Distant Thunder]

FarNorth,

Your fold over on the base looks just fine. I don't get to worried about the amount fold over as long as there is at least a spot of exposed lead in the middle.

I may have missed a few things but I don't know what bullet your using, what alloy or what kind of wad. I can assume it's a .45-70, which is what shoot for Creedmoor matches. I find that Goex 2f like 3/16" to something around 1/4" compression, if that's what you're burning. The paper can make a difference too, but the fit of the bullet to the bore of your rifle is very important for target loads. I recently opened up a new mold .0015", from .4305 to .432" and that got rid of the outliers completely. This is in a .44 caliber, but I've done the same with my .45-70 too. Fit is very important. I patch my bore diameter pp bullets about .020" below the start of the ogive. That seems to be a good spot for accuracy and I never have any leading, but each rifle is different and you'll find what works best in yours.

What kind of paper are you using? What diameter are your bullets before patching?

I first started shooting paper patch bullets for competition about 2008 and in 2010 I gave up on grease groove bullets and never looked back. Once it was working there just wasn't anyway I could consider going back to greasers.

Keep at it and in the end you'll be amazed how simple it is to load and shoot accurate paper patch loads.

[FarNorth45]

Thanks Distant Thunder.
Sorry i had made some other posts and wasn't even thinking about posting specs..... i was too excited ha!ha
The rifle is a Shiloh Hartford 45-70 , 32" bull barrel with a 1in 18 twist . Bullet is a Baco Elliptical 530gr .443 cast from some wheel weight alloy , pure and tin to a bhn of 10.5 wrapped with 9# onion skin paper . The bullet pushes in with just slight thumb pressure, i can feel in just slipping into the bore and i can push it back out with very little pressure and the paper is imprinted but just slightly .
Powder is Goex 2f , its the only black powder in Alaska , so its the only choice .
Next is a .030 veggi wad compressed down to .200 , bullet hand seated and just enough taper crimp to hold the bullet but can still be pulled out easily.
Today's temp was 4°f and snowing lol i think the group could've been even better but i was getting excited when i seen it pulling together lol
I think with 10.5 alloy it was bumping up more and i had to wrap further up than i had planned ?? Maybe i need to mix up some 16:1 alloy ..... but to be honest i was pretty happy just getting a good starting group 15 shots in ha!ha

[Gunlaker]

I would recommend trying a 0.060" LDPE wad instead of the vegetable wad. They've always sealed the bore better for me and resulted in better groups. Seating shallower 0.1" would probably improve things too.

Chris.

[Don Purcell]

FarNorth45, don't know if this will help but when taper crimping paper patch in my 45-110 I put just enough crimp to hold the bullet in place when inverted and shaken. The bullet is actually a little "wobbly" in the case and can be turned with my fingers but won't fall out. Putting five shots into a ragged hole at 100 yards I at least know it isn't hurting anything. That was also wiping between shots like you do. The open center of the patch on the base is pretty much like mine also, only shooting will tell. Crack on!

[Distant Thunder]

I love the Hartfords!

Chris is absolutely correct about the .060 LDPE wad and especially with bore diameter pp bullets. They just seal better at that critical time that the bullet is bumping up and engraving.
Shallower seating would probably help, though I am learning that is is not always the only way to get good accuracy.

That bullet might be just a tad too long if you were going to try and push it to 1000 yards in a .45-70. It needs all the velocity you can give it when fired from an 18-twist.

You should be able to recover some of your bullets in the spring if you fire them into a snowbank. They will be almost undamaged and can tell you a lot about your load and alloy. Like how far forward they are bumping up and how your patch is holding up.

Goex 2f can preform pretty well, but there are some powders that might be better. I'd go with what you have and get that to work the best you can, you might be surprised how well that will be.

What primer are you using?

It sounds like your bullet fits pretty well. I do like mine to be snug in the bore, but you have to be able to push it in without breaking your thumb! You'll know if it's too snug. Don't ask how I know that. If it's even a bit too loose you may see core groups that are really good but have 1 or 2 outliers that are maybe an inch or so out the core group. Then a bullet that cast just a touch bigger can clean those up very well. I just did that with my .44-77 by increasing my bullet diameter from .4305" to .432". Big difference in my groups!

Some people have good luck with bullets that are patched to .001 to .002" under bore diameter. I never have had that work as well as a bullet patched to the bore diameter, but it's a fine line between perfect and too big. That's where a push through sizing die can help. I actually prefer to patch to about .001" over bore and then size to bore diameter. It just seems to work best for me. Remember each rifle is different and you need to left your rifle tell what it wants.

[Distant Thunder]

As for the taper crimp, Don has it exactly right. You don't really want to even mark the paper and certainly not the lead.

Reducing the mouth of the case like Don described has always improved accuracy with bore diameter pp for me. I think a neck sizing die is a better way to go than taper crimping, but only because it reduces the diameter without closing it up beyond a certain size and must be match to the patched diameter of the bullet. Taper crimping is somewhat dependent on case length and a case just a little bit longer made close up too tight and damage the patch. Neck sizing, when done right reduces the inside diameter as a straight section of the case. It's usually only necessary to go about 1/8" deep with the sizing so it's not over working the case like FL sizing would do and won't require annealing as often.

[Don Purcell]

Thank you Jim, I failed to mention the neck sizing die which allows the judicious use of the taper crimp.

[country gent]

Since the PP bullet is smaller than what the dies are set up to load you dont get any tension. The bushing die will allow you to adjust for this. Using a 45 colt or acp die to neck size may also help.

A 45 cal PP is around ,450-.451 dia not the .458-.459 most greasers are. The acp sizing die set way high should take the mouth and needed length down to .449-.450 or even a little larger depending how far you run it in.

A 30-06 or 308 sizing die might allow this to be applied with the bullet seated on the body taper of the die.

[FarNorth45]

Thanks Distant Thunder , Gunlaker , Don Purcell and Country Gent ... i really appreciate all the help !!!
Distant Thunder i am using Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primers .
Thanks again Guys !
I have some .025 LPDE plastic , by not any .060 , but i will order some if i can't find any around ..... HDPE is everywhere ha!
I will also reduce my seating depth to .1 and give that a go .
I have 45-70 neck sizers as well as 45colt and 45acp dies .... so i will get that set up also
I just got off work , it's snowing again ...... so i need to move snow and cast some more bullets lol. I will re-read everything again when i get done and make sure i didn't miss anything or anyone .
Once again i really appreciate each one of you Guys taking the time to help a guy out !
Pat ,
Aka Far North
P.S Snow is cool at first , but after a few months i'm over it lol!!!

[FarNorth45]

Thanks Distant Thunder , Gunlaker , Don Purcell and Country Gent ... i really appreciate all the help !!!
Distant Thunder i am using Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primers .
Thanks again Guys !
I have some .025 LPDE plastic , by not any .060 , but i will order some if i can't find any around ..... HDPE is everywhere ha!
I will also reduce my seating depth to .1 and give that a go .
I have 45-70 neck sizers as well as 45colt and 45acp dies .... so i will get that set up also
I just got off work , it's snowing again ...... so i need to move snow and cast some more bullets lol. I will re-read everything again when i get done and make sure i didn't miss anything or anyone .
Once again i really appreciate each one of you Guys taking the time to help a guy out !
Pat ,
Aka Far North
P.S Snow is cool at first , but after a few months i'm over it lol!!!

[FarNorth45]

Not sure how i managed to post that twice lol.
So i did Mic my bullet tonight wrapped it is .4497 and my bore is .450 that should be decent to start with . To be honest i had not checked until tonight, i just went by feel and it felt nice !
I am planning to take it out to 1,000yrds , so i may end up having to change bullets .... but i'll see what i can do with it first , my wife would give me the evil eye if i said i need a new mold ha!ha . But i can't blame her because im also on a list for a new puppy !!!
Anyway i also checked my lyman short neck sizer and it should work , it will go down to .445
Are you guys just buy .060 LDPE , or finding containers or something?

[JKR]

As for the taper crimp, Don has it exactly right. You don't really want to even mark the paper and certainly not the lead.

Reducing the mouth of the case like Don described has always improved accuracy with bore diameter pp for me. I think a neck sizing die is a better way to go than taper crimping, but only because it reduces the diameter without closing it up beyond a certain size and must be match to the patched diameter of the bullet. Taper crimping is somewhat dependent on case length and a case just a little bit longer made close up too tight and damage the patch. Neck sizing, when done right reduces the inside diameter as a straight section of the case. It's usually only necessary to go about 1/8" deep with the sizing so it's not over working the case like FL sizing would do and won't require annealing as often.

Just to confirm what I think I’m getting here. You’re running the loaded round into the neck sizing die a little ways to provide enough tension to hold the bullet?
JKR

[Gunlaker]

I used to buy my 0.060" LDPE wads pre-cut from Buffalo Arms, but now, for my paper patch loads I cut them myself on a Fred Cornell press mounted wad punch. I do get the 0.060" LDPE sheets from Buffalo Arms, but you can get them in lots of places.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

CG,

With all do respect a bushing crimp die is not the ideal thing to use for a PP bullet loaded in a case fired from a standard chamber. You might just as well use a roll crimp.
Bushing dies are not tapered enough on the inlet and this could make an eccentric reduction taking it down to the bore diameter PP bullet.
Do what Don and Jim mentioned and use a taper crimp or a short neck sizing die in my opinion is the only way to get a proper concentric taper on the case neck holding the bullet centered with the least amount of run out.
A rifle chambered for exclusive use of the PP bullet you don't have to resize the case necks.
I have a bushing die and I was never satisfied using them even reworking the bushing for a longer taper to keep the runout to a minimum. Use a short neck or taper crimp sizing die like Jim said.

[Distant Thunder]

"Just to confirm what I think I’m getting here. You’re running the loaded round into the neck sizing die a little ways to provide enough tension to hold the bullet?"

JKR,

Yes. After I have started my .060" LDPE wad it the case mouth and then compressed it to the proper depth in my compression die I just set the patched bullet, which is pretty loose at this point, in the case mouth and then run the entire cartridge up into my neck sizing die which is set to size only about 1/8" of the neck with the bullet in place.

The only BPCR with a standard grease groove chamber I am currently loading straight bore diameter pp bullets for is my .44-77 and the parched bullets for it are sized to .438" after patching, which is the actual bore size. I have not checked the ID of my neck sized cases but the bullet fits perfect. I can pull a bullet easily with my fingers then reseat it the same way and, with care, I won't damage the patch. I can lift the cartridge out of my ammo box by just the bullet without losing the case. The bullet still wobbles around in the case with only an 1/8" sized and that allows the snug fit in the bore to align the bullet concentric to the bore. That is the main reason for the shallow seating, it puts a maximum length of the snug fitting bullet to be up into the bore in perfect alignment. The only way to get more of the bullet into the bore is breech seating, which is also very accurate, but is a much slower process than fixed ammo.

With one other rifle, at .45-70, I use bore diameter bullets but it has a special tight paper patch chamber that will only accept a bullet that is no bigger than .451" and it is very accurate out to 1000 yards. Then in my .40-65 I use a 2-diameter pp bullet with a base diameter that is groove diameter +.001" to fit the .400" long freebore that rifle has. That is currently my must accurate rifle, but my .44-77 is gaining ground on it.

All three of these rifles will pretty much on demand shoot 10-shot groups at 200 meters that are under 3" and my .40-65 can put 10 in under 2". This is with a scope, my eyes are at least as old as I am and I just can't see with irons like I once did. Once you get down to that 2 1/2" mark the gains are small enough that it hard to tell the day to day variations from the progress of reducing group size. It takes a lot of groups to prove it out.

While paper patching is a little more time consuming than greasers, it IS NOT any more difficult. It is very much misunderstood due to all the misinformation that is on the web and people who know little to nothing about it that keep repeating the lies. The loads I assemble are so easy to put together that for it to be any easier they would have to load themselves! With a bit of attention to a few details and reasonable care in assembling the the loads it is as simple as clean and prep the cases, prime, weigh and drop tube the powder, seat the wad and compress, seat the patched bullet and neck size then just go and shoot well!

Probably the biggest things are choosing the right bullet and by that I mean the right diameter and length but also a good design cast of an alloy like 16:1. Then using a good paper that fits your bullet to your bore and is not over about .002" thickness. A high cotton content seems to help too. Thicker paper can work but is probably not the best, too thin I find much harder to work with, but my fingers are old like my eyes. Then I would say next is use a .060" LDPE wad, they always seem to be the best for me. I will say that my .45-90 Shiloh liked the .060" HDPE wads a bit better. Possibly due to the 105 grains of powder it burned.

The thing with the wad and bore diameter pp bullets is that you really need a wad that will seat the freebore, leade and grooves of the rifle during that critical time your undersize bullet is transitioning through these different diameter as it is also bumping up to groove diameter. No other wad that I've found does that as well as a .060" LDPE. If you get any gas cutting at all it will start in this transition area and it will destroy accuracy and quite probably lead your barrel up badly. A hard lessoned I have learned!

A good design for a bore diameter paper patch bullet is one that the length is just a bit below what the rifling will stabilize well. In an 18-twist .45 for example that will be a bullet about 1.430" to 1.440" long. You can get by with slightly longer bullets out to 600 and even 800 yards, but you will have trouble in any headwind or twitchy winds beyond that.

The nose design should be such that it is no more than 45% of the OAL bullet length. In the .45 caliber example that means a nose no longer than .648". And 40% might be a bit better. The nose should not be overly slender and or pointed. A nose radius of 1/3 of caliber is what I like. A long slender nose will shift the center of gravity farther back and make it easier for the air pressure and headwinds to push the nose off the flight path and can cause the bullet to wobble. That is NOT good.

Also if the nose is long and slender and the alloy is too soft for the velocity the bullet is shot at there is the possibility that the nose will setback and slump off center causing fliers. Adding a small amount antimony to the alloy will help reduce nose setback and a slightly more blunt nose is less likely to slump off center.

These are the facts, as I understand them, of shooting in the transonic zone with cast lead bullets and that is where we are, 1346 fps to 897 fps. Small gains can be made with higher velocities but black powder does not allow for much over about 1450 fps with bullets heavy enough to carry to 1000 yards.

This all applies to any BPCR caliber, I used .45 caliber as an example because it is the most popular.

The most common mistake I see is shooters using a bullet that is at or above the length their twist will optimally stabilize. Or they are shooting an alloy that is too soft for the velocity and design of their bullet.

Other than that it's a matter of good, organized load development and keeping good notes helps a bunch. Change one thing at a time and retest to prove out what's working, then change another thing and repeat until you find the most accurate load over time. After that it's all shooter and trigger time makes better shooters.

The preceding is what I have learned, much of it the hard way, over the past 30 years and is based on my experiences, research and input from other shooters who were kind enough to help me out. I am indebted to all of them. I pass it along as freely as it was given to me, you can follow it or not. There are others who do it differently and are successful. Good luck to you all.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

Thank you for explaining that better than I did!

[JKR]

Thank you for the explanation. I haven’t started paper patching yet. I just got the Paul Mathews book. Are there any others you’d recommend?
I’m very impressed by your scope group size. My groups at 115 yards are averaging about 2 1/4”for 10 shots with aperture sights front and rear. I’m thinking I should probably request scope blocks on my new rifle order. I still see pretty well but I am getting a little long in the tooth!
JKR

[Distant Thunder]

JKR,

I only mentioned the group sizes to show that what I'm doing is working for me. It does not seem to work for everyone, but I don't know for sure what anyone else does or how close they follow what I've offered. And I'm not the only one who does it this way, I know of a number of other shooters doing pretty much the same with similar results.

Mathews' book has some very useful information in it, I've had my copy for many, many years and have worn it out from reading it. He writes about both black powder paper patching and smokeless. Early on I had trouble separating the two totally different types of shooting, in particular the requirements with regard to bullet diameter. It took me time to grasp the concept of "bore" diameter bullets and how they work. It seems so simple to me now that I have no idea why it was hard for me to get 30 years ago, but it was.

LOADING AND SHOOTING PAPER PATCHED BULLETS - A BEGINNER'S GUIDE by Randolph S. Wright is a very good reference book with a lot of illustrations which are helpful to someone like me. He does a good job of covering the basics of paper patching with black powder in a organized way. It is a good book for anyone new to black powder paper patching.

For some reason I can still see reasonably well with iron sights on my 34" Hepburn that I use for Creedmoor matches. The problem I started to have about 3 or 4 years ago is with my shorter barreled rifles. My .44-77 has a 30" barrel and my .40-65 has a 31" barrel. I have an astigmatism and have always had trouble in bright light with irons, but starting last year I've been having trouble on darker days with the shorter barrels.

At my last long range match last year, all at 1000 yards, on the second day it was very dark in the morning and I was trying out my "new" .44-77 Shiloh with iron sights. I could not even find anything down range that looked like a target while looking through the sights! NOTHING! I had brought the scope along at the last minute and in desperation I pulled the tang sight off the rifle and put the scope on. With no sight sightings beyond 600 yards I did some quick math using the sight setting from the first day with that rifle and load, I dialed in what my math said and fired a shot from 1000 yards. When the target came back up it was a 7 at 12 o'clock. I had plenty of other problems with the new rifle and my load so the match was mostly a learning experience. On the plus side I got sight settings for 1000 yards with both iron sights and scope! The only real advantage with a scope in a Creedmoor match is being able to see the target and the number boards. The match winner will still be the guy who makes the most correct calls on the conditions, breaks good shots and keeps his head out of his butt, a scope by itself won't put your shots in the 10 and X-ring for you.

[Distant Thunder]

JKR,

Your groups are not bad at all. Most shooters and rifles/loads are 2 MOA or about 4.2" at 200 yards and you are close to that. Getting that down to 3" at 200 yards and 10 shots just requires working at it and/or getting better (more consistent) at casting and loading BP, refining your process. Every fraction of an inch under 3" becomes harder and harder and it takes time and effort, lots of trigger time. For me the process from start to finish is something I enjoy immensely. Whether is the casting or filling the cases or patching the bullets, I like it all. Having the desire to improve on my past efforts has kept me going for many years as a competitive shooter and I don't see my interest fading any. It's a great sport. Enjoy the journey.

[Lead pot]

JKR.

Jim has given you some very good advice and I basically do the same as Jim.
Something Jim has not mentioned yet and that is case prep. When you really want to get the most you have to spend time with the rifle and working up what I call ladder loads as well as getting the brass uniform. Like inside volume and case neck wall identical so you get a consistent bullet release holding the potential verticals down and casting a well balanced bullet matching the rifle twist.
Casting a good bullet you can get several different weights from the same batch of alloy and cast from the same session. If you have a pile of light and some heavy with different weights between. Just because you have several between the light and heavy that just don't make them the best in the casting session. The heavy flawless bullet will be the one that has no dross in then and they will be the well balanced.
Spend time with the rifle testing loads. Both are good for you getting time behind the buttplate.

These black powder rifles have good potential for accuracy. The targets below are the best I have shot and I will say that I cant do this every time out and those are only 5 shot groups but that is what these rifles can do when you spend time working them.
I cant even get my .308 to shoot like this all the time. :D
Kurt

274771

[FarNorth45]

Distance Thunder , Lead Pot and everyone else i may have missed ... I really appericate all the great advice !! I will put all this information to use , trust me on that , Jim many thanks for them long write ups full of knowledge that took a lot of time to write up !!
Kurt you have also gaven me great advice in the past and present. I do spend a lot of time on brass prep , it's just in my Dna ha!ha ..... and Kurt that is some mighty fine shooting !!! I'll get there , i wont stop trying until i do !!!!
I will put all this advice into play this week and post my homework grades this weekend after shooting lol!
I too love the challenge of bettering my skills . I lay awake and dream all night about things that challenge me until i can figure them out ...... it's both , a good thing and a curse altogether !!!
I will probably only get to shoot Sunday , Saturday i really need to make a powder run hopefully..... and that is over a 320mile round trip through the mountains ...... about 6-7 hrs lol

[FarNorth45]

I also weigh every bullet casted and sort to within 1gr ..... my casting has also improved because of this i think , its seems now that the majority of them all fall within 1gr ...... but i also watch and inspect each bullet , if any edge is even slightly rounded it goes right back into the pot . I also started using a stopwatch a lot with a lap counter , it helps me stay very consistent and also keeps tack of bullets casted ha!ha

[FarNorth45]

I used to buy my 0.060" LDPE wads pre-cut from Buffalo Arms, but now, for my paper patch loads I cut them myself on a Fred Cornell press mounted wad punch. I do get the 0.060" LDPE sheets from Buffalo Arms, but you can get them in lots of places.

Chris.
Thanks , i will get me some ordered .... right now i am just using a wad punch i made , but i have been eyeballing them press mounted ones ..... they look pretty snazzy!!!

[JKR]

Far North,
How much range do you have out of your window? My window is pinched between my loading bench and wood stove. I need to build a rifle bench like yours but it will be a tight fit.
Jim,
Thank you for the information and the tip on the book. I see Track of the Wolf has it in stock. I’ll order it.
Lead Pot,
I’m impressed and inspired that you can shoot groups like that with pp bullets. My 5 shot groups with grease groove bullets start out looking like that but usually end up with one shot out that opens up the group. However, I may be at the limit of what I can do with iron sights.
Do you guys think that good groups at one and two hundred yards are a good indicator for mid and long range performance? In highpower we always tested long range ammo at least at three hundred. I have a 200 yd range here at my home but it’s not so good for winter shooting. That and my hips are complaining when I get near a pair of snowshoes!
JKR

[Distant Thunder]

FarNorth,

It sounds like you've got your casting down pretty good. For match shooting I've been told you need to keep your bullets +/-.5 grains, but I have done well with +/- 1 grains. I visually inspect each bullet as they fall from the mold, if there is anything irregular about the base when I push the spur plate aside it gets tossed back into the pot. That might be the edge being rounded or a void or something else I don't like the looks of. I look at the bullet as I roll it toward the others to inspect the side, same thing, if any thing does not look right it is tossed.

After casting I weigh each bullet and separate into 1 grain groups. I keep the ones that are toward the high and fall in the total spread of 2 grains. Say I'm casting at 528 grains for the high end. There will be a few that are 529 and those go back. There will be a group that are 527 and those are good but I keep separate from the 528 group. Anything below 527 goes back to the pot. My rejection rate from weighing is usually no more than 5-8%. Each bullet is visually inspected again when it is weighed. Something very minor that still makes weigh I keep, but I mark it with an "S" for sighter. Those I use for the first few sighters at the start of each relay and the last couple of sighters are good bullets. It somewhat depends on the number of sighters allowed.

Each bullet gets one last visual inspection when it is patched just before seating. I make the final decision on what is shot for score and what is a sighter at that point and if I missed something I don't like in the previous inspections I may just toss it back in the pot.

I have been at matches when on the last day I have had to sort through my ammo deciding what to shoot at what distance and have had to mix some 527 grain bullets in with some 528 grain bullets and even a few mark with an "S" to have enough bullet to shoot for score the whole day. The "S" bullets go right in there with the 528 grain bullets as do the 527 grain! I just feel better starting a match with bullets I have confidence in. All the bullets I cast and load, the heavy ones, the light ones and even the sighters, are capable of winning the match so the real weight of the outcome falls on me. I'm just like anyone else I have good days, better days and some days that I don't like to talk about. Those last kind of days are never because my bullets let me down, they are because I made some bad or unlucky choices while I was shooting. Sometimes at a match you have only a few seconds to decide how much to turn the knobs or if you should even turn them and then get in the rifle and break a good shot before your time runs out. I have made my last shot in a relay with only a handful of seconds left on the clock.

I used to just crumble when I was in that situation, but over time I learned to deal with it better by focusing completely on that next shot and nothing else. You can sometimes win or lose on that one shot. Good matches are often very close at the top. After the match I analyze the heck out the good and bad choices I made and I try to build a thought process that will enable me to make better choices in those remaining few seconds of a relay and through the entire match really. It's something like muscle memory, but it's between your ears. I have done much better when I go to a match mentally prepared and I find I have a lot of time to think while I'm driving to a match. You can spend a lot of time making good ammo, but if you don't make good choices it won't matter much. I learn from my good choices, but I learn a lot from my bad choices too. To do the best you can you have to shoot and that to me means shoot in match conditions and do it a lot. Lick your wounds, learn from your mistakes and go again.

If you're shooting 2 MOA at 200 yards you're ready to start shooting in matches. At matches, both from shooting and talking to those who shoot well, you will learn more than you will sitting at your loading bench. Go to a match!

Sorry for the long posts, just skip over them if you like.

[FarNorth45]

JKR,
Right now i only have 150yrds , but come summer time i will take out some more trees and join it onto my 300yrd range ..... who knows i may get a wild hair and try this winter . But our gun club here has a 1000 yard range with a heated building, so i may not lol .
Distant Thunder,
Are kidding , i read and soak up all the information you put out here !!!! Only a fool would skip over it !
I don't have cable , or even local channels for over 7 years now and i love it !!
I got rid of all my Social Media crap a couple years ago..... like Facebook and i don't miss it one little bit !!!
It leaves me more time to hone skills and learn new things in life ....... not to mention a happier , less stressed person in general !!! I love bettering myself, learning how and why things work the way they do . I guess thats why i become a Mechanic for a living lol

[FarNorth45]

JKR ,
This is my 300 yrd range and it starts right beside my reloading shop .... i just need to take out a few more trees . The pistol range is in the middle of it and accessible from my front yard . I also need to build a covering for it , always something to do lol274848274849

[Gunlaker]

Wow! That's a nice setup.

Chris.

[Don Purcell]

They say jealousy is a sin and after looking at your range I feel very sinful!

[FarNorth45]

Thanks Guys ,
My Wife , Son and I put a lot of work in on building it . We all love to shoot , it's took us many years to get to this point in our lives and we feel very blessed . I've always wanted a place where i could step out the door and have my own range ...... this time around we were lucky and made some right choices for once ha!ha

[Distant Thunder]

Well done, FarNorth! Good for you!

My range looks pretty much the same but is limited to 220 yards (200 meters) and is all I have for load development. My testing at long range has always been done at matches where I quickly found out what works and what doesn't. The local club range is only 100 yards and most here think that IS long range! I would have to move elsewhere if I couldn't walk out my back door and shoot.

[JKR]

Seriously nice range set up you have there Far North. You’ve got me thinking I should make some improvements on mine. I had built a 300 yard range when I shot HP. I quit using it in 2002. Since then it’s grown up with alders. Amazing how fast that happens.
JKR

[FarNorth45]

Thanks Distant Thunder,
Thats seems to always be the case , most people think 100yrds is long range ...... but suddenly when they go hunting it turns into 527 yards and their bullet didn't even drop ha!ha


Thanks Jkr , and you need to get started cleaning that range ha!ha ..... it's funny up here , growing season is very short ..... but in the summer , with midnight sunlight things grow really fast!! It's like they are double timing to get caught up.


I called today to check on powder before i drive 160 miles one way to get it ...... Turns out they dont have any , said they had to find a new supplier and it would be a minimum of 2 weeks . I only got 4 pounds of goex 2f remaining. I do still have 5 pounds of 3f if i had to , but i will just need to conserve and hope they do get some .
I have checked on getting it from Buffalo arms , they state that they now have shipping to Alaska and what that really means is that they will ship it to the Marine Lines in Seattle and then you have to pay the Marine lines haz mat to Alaska..... that isn't cheap lol

[JKR]

After leaving HP rifle competition I went into Precision Pistol ( Bullseye Pistol). I could practice and compete for a whole season on an eight pounder of Bullseye powder. I’m just starting to get a handle on how much powder it takes to run these big BP cartridges. I’ve just ordered powder from BACO. It was supposed to arrive yesterday but tracking shows it somewhere in Nebraska. While waiting I found a old can of 2F that I used for muzzle loaders. I loaded some up and shot two of the best groups I’ve ever shot! Hmmmm!
JKR

[semtav]

After leaving HP rifle competition I went into Precision Pistol ( Bullseye Pistol). I could practice and compete for a whole season on an eight pounder of Bullseye powder. I’m just starting to get a handle on how much powder it takes to run these big BP cartridges. I’ve just ordered powder from BACO. It was supposed to arrive yesterday but tracking shows it somewhere in Nebraska. While waiting I found a old can of 2F that I used for muzzle loaders. I loaded some up and shot two of the best groups I’ve ever shot! Hmmmm!
JKR

I'd invite you to that other forum to shoot a few , but I'm not sure we could handle 2 northern Wisconsiners !!

[JKR]

Semtav,
I’ve been waiting for approval of my registration since November. Is that normal there? I would’ve liked to shoot in your postal!
JKR

[semtav]

I would call Lucinda at Shiloh personally.
In the meantime you could just email me your targets and will post them

Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

[JKR]

I would call Lucinda at Shiloh personally.
In the meantime you could just email me your targets and will post them

Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk
Thanks for the offer. I’ll get one shot this week.
I’ve sent Lucinda an email.
JKR

[Gunlaker]

Thanks for the offer. I’ll get one shot this week.
I’ve sent Lucinda an email.
JKR

You might want to try the phone. When I've emailed them in the past it's usually taken weeks to get a response and sometimes I don't get one at all. I've pretty much given up on emailing them and just call.

Chris.

[JKR]

Thanks. If I don’t hear back on Monday I’ll do that.
JKR

[mongo40]

Far North, I appreciate your thread here, I"ve been struggling with PPing, Sunday I went out and tried to get it working and it was a disaster with what I had loaded, I posted a long thread over on Shiloh forums and I"ve gotten so much advice thats its almost overload! Like what you've got going here, I've read through all the advice on here you were given and there are a few things i also need to go back and look at myself, so appreciated this thread! Really like your range you've built. We just go out to the pasture and set up targets at different ranges and go at it.
Chris W.,

[FarNorth45]

Far North, I appreciate your thread here, I"ve been struggling with PPing, Sunday I went out and tried to get it working and it was a disaster with what I had loaded, I posted a long thread over on Shiloh forums and I"ve gotten so much advice thats its almost overload! Like what you've got going here, I've read through all the advice on here you were given and there are a few things i also need to go back and look at myself, so appreciated this thread! Really like your range you've built. We just go out to the pasture and set up targets at different ranges and go at it.
Chris W.,

Thanks Mongo...... hey you know i moved up to Alaska from South Central Oklahoma, i also new a guy named Chris W. ....... that wouldnt stand for chris White by any chance would it ?
I've got my loads down to about 2.5 inches @150yrds .
I got some loaded now with 85grs of 2f ... but ive been busy and its been -14 so i haven't shot in a while . These guys are awesome and their advice has helped me a ton !!!

[FarNorth45]

Thanks for all the help guys !!! I think I'm on the right track now . I loaded 82grs of goex ffg , 1 .030 veggie wad and one .030 ldpe wad .... i need to order some .060 ldpe sheets . And then seated my 530gr Elliptical at .100 into the case .
5 shot group at 150yrds , the high one went off before i was ready and called it before even looking down the spotting scope . The 4 shots are exactly 1inch group , and 1 3/4inch if i count my fault . I'm pleased with it and now i will load up 10 more to see how they do !! Thanks again everyone!!277663277664277665

[Lead pot]

:awesome: and now the real sickness begins :D

[FarNorth45]

:awesome: and now the real sickness begins :D

Thanks Lead Pot !!!! It truly is addictive, but it better for a man than sitting around watching tv all the time !!! Well i think it is , last weekend i drove 320miles round trip to buy 10 pounds of black powder ( the limit ) and last night i ordered ldpe sheets lol ..
Thanks for the help and advice !!! I really appreciate it.
Pat

[Lead pot]

Your on the way Pat. Now it just takes trigger time and that is the fun part.

If they ever open the borders again I will be heading back up your way and maybe we can make some smoke. I always take one rifle up there with me, some times two :D.

[Distant Thunder]

Pat,

Now you're making it look easy! Way to go!!!

Once you realize fully how easy loading extremely accurate paper patch loads is you'll wonder why anyone loads those other kind, you know the greasy grooved kind!

I tell people that for it to be any easier the darn things would have to load themselves and I not sure everybody believes me, but it's true.

You'll like what the .060" LDPE wads do for your loads too.

Well done. [smilie=w:[smilie=w:

[dirtball]

I have following this thread intently as I am going down the same path as FarNorth45, except mine is a 45-90.
Thanks to everyone for the wealth of knowledge here!!
My question is are you all using 45 cal LDPE wads or 44 cal wads for PP loads? The 45 cal LDPE wads I have are .464 diameter and there is NO way I can get them in a .453 case mouth. The 44 cal wads per the BACO web site are .446 which would seem to be too small.:?:


Dave

[FarNorth45]

Your on the way Pat. Now it just takes trigger time and that is the fun part.

If they ever open the borders again I will be heading back up your way and maybe we can make some smoke. I always take one rifle up there with me, some times two :D.

That sounds like a lot of fun to me !!! If you make it back up here look me up and we will get together!!!! I live down on the Kenai Peninsula and our gun range goes out to 1,000yrds or i have 300yrds in my front yard . That would be a blast !!!

[FarNorth45]

Pat,

Now you're making it look easy! Way to go!!!

Once you realize fully how easy loading extremely accurate paper patch loads is you'll wonder why anyone loads those other kind, you know the greasy grooved kind!

I tell people that for it to be any easier the darn things would have to load themselves and I not sure everybody believes me, but it's true.

You'll like what the .060" LDPE wads do for your loads too.

Well done. [smilie=w:[smilie=w:


Thanks Distant Thunder, you guys made the learning curve so much shorter !!! Honestly it wasn't that hard to accomplish if a guy just listens to the knowledge that has been shared here!!
I do find it easier and more satisfying that messing with GG bullets ...... cleaning is so easy also . Makes me wish i could paper patch for all my guns ha!ha

[FarNorth45]

I have following this thread intently as I am going down the same path as FarNorth45, except mine is a 45-90.
Thanks to everyone for the wealth of knowledge here!!
My question is are you all using 45 cal LDPE wads or 44 cal wads for PP loads? The 45 cal LDPE wads I have are .464 diameter and there is NO way I can get them in a .453 case mouth. The 44 cal wads per the BACO web site are .446 which would seem to be too small.:?:


Dave


I use 45 cal rifle wads at .460 and was buying them at first . Now i just punch out my own .460 wads , at first i just made my own punch but last night i ordered a .460 wad punch from Baco for $20 .
All the advice / knowledge these guys share are spot on and shorten the learning curve tremendously!!

[Gunlaker]

I have following this thread intently as I am going down the same path as FarNorth45, except mine is a 45-90.
Thanks to everyone for the wealth of knowledge here!!
My question is are you all using 45 cal LDPE wads or 44 cal wads for PP loads? The 45 cal LDPE wads I have are .464 diameter and there is NO way I can get them in a .453 case mouth. The 44 cal wads per the BACO web site are .446 which would seem to be too small.:?:


Dave

I have a .45 cal Cornell wad punch ( mounts on your press ) from Buffalo Arms. It cuts them slightly smaller so they are easier to fit into the case.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

The Cornell press mounted wad punch does cut one smaller. Mine cuts the .45's .460"
At .453" it looks like your full length sizing your cases. Load your fired cases at least with the powder and wad then taper crimp the case and seat your bullet when you get the proper neck diameter so you can still finger seat a snug fitting bullet.
I don't like to taper crimp a round with the bullet seated because your also swaging the portion of the bullet down that is in the case mouth.

[dirtball]

The Cornell press mounted wad punch does cut one smaller. Mine cuts the .45's .460"
At .453" it looks like your full length sizing your cases. Load your fired cases at least with the powder and wad then taper crimp the case and seat your bullet when you get the proper neck diameter so you can still finger seat a snug fitting bullet.
I don't like to taper crimp a round with the bullet seated because your also swaging the portion of the bullet down that is in the case mouth.

Thank You, I will give that a try.
BACO's web site lists two 45 cal Cornell punches, one for 45 cal "Rifle", and one for 45 cal "Colt/454 Casull". But they do NOT list a diameter for either.
I should probably call them and see if I can get more info.

Dave

[Lead pot]

Dave, use the rifle punch. You need a good tight fitting wad to keep from getting gas cuts. The .454" is too small for the .45 rifle.
The wads you have will also work as long as they don't bulge the case wall and hamper loading the cartridge in the chamber.

[dirtball]

Dave, use the rifle punch. You need a good tight fitting wad to keep from getting gas cuts. The .454" is too small for the .45 rifle.
The wads you have will also work as long as they don't bulge the case wall and hamper loading the cartridge in the chamber.

Thanks!!
I will give it a try as soon as we get a break in the weather.

Dave

[Lead pot]

Dave,

You are using a case full of black powder ??
Don't try using smokeless and seat a wad on a smokeless load. There should not be a gap between the wad and bullet, smokeless or black powder.

[dirtball]

Dave,

You are using a case full of black powder ??
Don't try using smokeless and seat a wad on a smokeless load. There should not be a gap between the wad and bullet, smokeless or black powder.

Jamison brass, BR-2 Primer, 90gr EO 1.5, .060 vegie wad (currently), compress to .10", seat bullet by hand, MAKE SMOKE!!
Bullet is a BACO 446535 wraped with an onion skin paper I have had for decades. Wrapped dia about .4515, then sized to about .4505.
It will slide snugly into the barrel with the push of one finger, does not indent the paper, but remains in the barrel if case is extracted.

Dave

[Yellowhouse]

Jamison brass, BR-2 Primer, 90gr EO 1.5, .060 vegie wad (currently), compress to .10", seat bullet by hand, MAKE SMOKE!!
Bullet is a BACO 446535 wraped with an onion skin paper I have had for decades. Wrapped dia about .4515, then sized to about .4505.
It will slide snugly into the barrel with the push of one finger, does not indent the paper, but remains in the barrel if case is extracted.

Dave

I bet that load gets your attention. I loaded 85 gr behind a 520 ppb and it sure got mine even in a 12 lb gun.

[Lead pot]

Jamison brass, BR-2 Primer, 90gr EO 1.5, .060 vegie wad (currently), compress to .10", seat bullet by hand, MAKE SMOKE!!
Bullet is a BACO 446535 wraped with an onion skin paper I have had for decades. Wrapped dia about .4515, then sized to about .4505.
It will slide snugly into the barrel with the push of one finger, does not indent the paper, but remains in the barrel if case is extracted.

Dave


277856

[rfd]

Thanks for all the help guys !!! I think I'm on the right track now . I loaded 82grs of goex ffg , 1 .030 veggie wad and one .030 ldpe wad .... i need to order some .060 ldpe sheets . And then seated my 530gr Elliptical at .100 into the case .
5 shot group at 150yrds , the high one went off before i was ready and called it before even looking down the spotting scope . The 4 shots are exactly 1inch group , and 1 3/4inch if i count my fault . I'm pleased with it and now i will load up 10 more to see how they do !! Thanks again everyone!!

277663

277664

277665

Good for ya, I love it when it all starts to come together.

For me and most other loaders/shooters, the Cornell wad press punch is indispensable. Get one and a goodly supply of .060 LDPE!

Cheers,
Rob.

[FarNorth45]

Good for ya, I love it when it all starts to come together.

For me and most other loaders/shooters, the Cornell wad press punch is indispensable. Get one and a goodly supply of .060 LDPE!

Cheers,
Rob.

Thanks Rfd !!! , i was going to order a press mount but i have not found one in stock. Oh well money is a little tight at the moment anyway and i can pick one up later ........ hopefully lol

[FarNorth45]

Well poo !!! I got my order today for my .060 LDPE wad material from Baco , looked like it went through a pretty rough trip ha!ha ... Anyway i opened it up and there it was 9 square feet of .060 Veggie material rrrrrh!!!! I sent them a email with pictures and will give them a call tomorrow. Now I'm probably another week out , Oh well that's usually how my luck rolls . As long as they make it right that is all that matters . I've never had a problem with them before and I've made my share of mistakes for sure lol

[flatsguide]

Far north, I think that .063 LDPE will really help shrink your groups. The heavy hitters here really helped me get going in the right direction. Shooting .45-70, 530gn elliptical 16:1 that harder alloy made a difference. My patched bullets are about a half thousandth under bore diameter. I tried all different sizes of paper from different outlets; carried a Mike in my pocket when I went looking for paper. Lot more choices locally in the lower 48. When I patch I leave about .030 paper rolled over the base and may even experiment with patching just flush with the base. I don’t resize my brass but I do anneal the neck every time. After I dump the powder (81.5gns Swiss1.5) I vibrate my case/powder and it settles the charge. After this I pop in a the LDPE wad then a wad of freezer paper (.003 thick) and Place the shiny side of the paper up , shiny side to bullet base. I then use a Meachum tool in my press that has interchangeable inserts that will reduce the diameter of the neck to hold the bullet at the tension you desire. Fortunately I have the ability to make my own and diamond lap them for a perfect fit for the brass/bullet/tension combination I desire. Overall cartridge length is very important. This is my opinion only so take it with a grain of salt (Morten’s). I don’t think the cartridge case mouth should be any closer than .005”. to the end of the rifles chambers mouth. It is best to do a Cerrocast of the chamber to determine that distance. Also I would not want that distance to be any greater either. I believe from experience, and others here have also mentioned, that upon firing, the wad will stretch the case and that pulls the case beyond the reamed chamber of the barrel caused the case to grab the bullet and do unwanted things to accuracy. If this is occurring you will see a very small rolling over of the case mouth and with a pencil using the point you can feel the inside of the case necking down.My bullets are seated at .120” into the case; this is an area where I’m still fiddling with, and I’m loading some now with seating depths of .100 to .085”. I do put a light chamfer on the inside and outside of the case mouth. I don’t need to bell the case mouth to insert the bullet and the bullet will not fall out of the case either by picking up the round by the bullet or by holding the round upside down. I really want to thank again the people on this PP site that helped me get started, otherwise it would have taken years of going down rabbit holes. Because of them I have a number of billfold groups that are under 3/4” at 100yds 5 shots. Oh! I compress the powder .015”.
You mentioned a 1000 yard range. I have a good friend that lives in Talkeetna and is a rangemaster at times at his club that has a thousand yard range, his name is Mike Sears if so tell him hello from me, Richard Martel.
Good luck, Richard

[FarNorth45]

Thanks Flatsguide for the great write up !!! I have gotten some new loads worked up with the Ldpe .060 wads ....... but haven't had a chance to shoot them yet , i have had lots of irons in the fire lately!!! But maybe this weekend , the weather has gotten warm up here and we are into Break-up (muddy as heck) !!! Lol ...... but the snow is going bye-bye very quickly now !!!!yay!!!

[JKR]

Flatsguide,
What role does the freezer paper wad play?
I’ve also had great success with my PP 45-70 load due to help from a forum member here. With a few differences, it is much the same as yours. I’m at 85 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 in order to get the compression my rifle seems to like.
I bench tested at 200 yards until I got groups down to around 1 1/2 moa. I’ve left the bench and am now shooting off cross sticks to practice for my first BPTR match.
JKR

[flatsguide]

FarNorth45, glad to share the knowledge and I hope it helps in some small way. Did you read my last paragraph?
JKR, I think it prevents anything from sticking to the base that would slow down the shedding of the patch. I find the shot freezer paper within feet of the bench. To be honest I never shot PP loads without the freezer paper, I started using using veggie wads and thought they would have a propensity to stick. I had problems with the veggie wads and the adage of only changing one thing at a time and only change being going to LDPE , wads I left the freezer paper in the equation. Nice shooting at 200yds!
Best Richard

[flatsguide]

FarNorth,
This shows the neck reduction using the Meachum neck sizing die that I use to reduce then neck. I neck down after the case is charged and the wads are in place. There is very light tension holding the bullet, the bullet can be pulled out of the case very easy, but will not fall out if the round is held upside down or just held by the bullet.
R


281668

[FarNorth45]

Flatsguide ,
Yes , and sorry i forgot to address that !!! I live a lot further South , down on the Kenai Peninsula and actually have never been up there yet
.... the 1,000 yard range i was referring to is in a town called Soldotna.
I was putting a slight taper crimp on , but have switch to running through a sizing die after loading just enough to keep the bullet from falling out . I did find my groups tightening up . The last time i shot i managed a 1inch 4shot group at 150yrds ..... but i have loaded up some more so i can put a 10 shot group down range and see where i stand now that i have went to .060 ldpe wads .