Softening the Nose

[ChristopherO]

I've studied Bruce B's nose softening technique, but have not used it to date. Scanning through other pages I come across this from Paco Kelly,
"Here’s a trick I write about often...to get soft nose and hard body cast bullets, cast them hard and hot, frosty bullets are better no matter what the experts say... drop them from the mold into water to temper....then place your bullets standing in water to their shoulder just above the top crimp groove, so the nose is exposed....take a butane torch and run it over the noses sticking out of the water...this detempers just the noses, so you in effect have a soft nose-hard body, cast bullet. It takes a little practice...but as soon as you see the bullet noses change color at all, pull the flame...or the nose will slump over...it doesn’t take much flame time, especially on small caliber bullets. Cast bullets made this way will resist fouling but will expand in any size animal....from rabbits on up."

From all my years of toying around with lead this is the first time I've seen this described. If this is good then I can 'anneal' so to speak, the noses of certain round nose boolits to achieve the mushroom effect. Will need to try it out with the proper medium before using that on game, though.
Anyone else ever utilize this technique with good success?

[Traffer]

In Corbins swaging instructions he references a technique of swaging in a plastic ball just under the nose of the bullet. But you need to swage that in. Something that I found with swaging lead is that you can run a hollow point pin in then re swage it shut...you will end up with a round nose with a hollow pocket in the nose. That ought to expand.

[Milsurp Junkie]

Also interested in the answers to this.

[StrawHat]

Sounds like a lot of work for little benefit.

At one time Lyman offered a dual mold, one mold cast the nose, and the other cast the body. You chose your alloys, poured your casts and glued them together. Also, a lot of work.

Depending on the bullet mold, you can drop a soft, round ball in the nose, close the sprue and pour your alloy. Again a lot of work.

How about paper patching? More work.

Maybe try what the ODG used to do. Some would alter the alloy under they got the expansion they wanted. They kept notes so it was repeatable. Some work but a lot of fun

Me? I hunt with a caliber appropriate to the game and cast hard for through and through penetration. I also don’t use anything oess than 40 caliber for big game. Pre-expanded!

Kevin

[Mk42gunner]

I pretty much gave up deer hunting shortly after I tried the Bruceb softnose casting method, (knee, hip, and back issues).

With that said, it isn't really that hard to do. It is kind of nerve racking to purposely get your mold that hot the first time, but I couldn't find any damage to my molds that I tried it with.

What I will recommend is to use a fairly fresh, i.e. non-oxidized, piece of pure lead for the soft nose. Any plumber knows you need a clean joint for a successful solder job. The first time I tried it I used some very old swaged round balls, they made a good looking boolit, but a few days later the nose popped off.

Poor solder job.

Next time I actually cleaned the balls first, and they are still stuck tight years later.

For actual hunting of deer, I think twenty rounds should be sufficient for a normal hunter (1-3 deer per year) for a few years.

Robert

[reloader28]

Its easy to do. I use it for some hunting bullets in 30 cal with 50/50/2% alloy. Water drop them, then anneal the nose. Seems to work great though I've only shot a couple deer with them

[ChristopherO]

Thanks for the input, gentlemen. I have an old 35 Whelen from a sporterized Mauser action that won't feed a flat nose bullet, period. And the RN mold I have doesn't chamber cleanly in it after the first round is fed from the magazine. The old Hornaday 250 RN feeds well, thanks to the copper jacket, but those are no longer being produced and I want to use this a a cast rifle, anyway. My though is that if a boolit with a sharper nose were employed with a soft nose for expansion then this rifle could shine in all its glory, again. That or use the Hornady 250 SP, which are quite accurate. That would defeat the purpose of casting for this rifle, though. You get it.

StrawHat, I've paper patched, powder coated, have read up on gluing to two halves together decades ago (not interested), have measured the alloys, etc..., part of the fun in this casting world is to learn new tricks and see how well they work. Running a torch over the tips of a number of boolits doesn't seem that more involved than annealing brass. It's worth the effort to find out how the end product comes out. And, yes, I normally hunt with very large caliber rifles, muzzleloaders or slug guns. Again, something new to explore and the ability to utilize an old rifle in the field keeps the juices flowing. I'm up for it.

[ChristopherO]

Thanks Reloader28. I'll have to give it a try next time I throw some 35 caliber boolits.

MK42Gunner, your concern for your mold with the BruceB method has caused me to hesitate, also. With your encouragement I will give that a go, as well. Good advice about precleaning the soft lead. I have swagged 32 caliber muzzleloader balls that would be perfect, though they will need the oxidization removed, as you suggest.

[centershot]

Have no fears about heating your mould to the melting point of lead. It'll be fine. I've made quite a number of these softpoints over the last few years, other than being time consuming, there's been no problems encountered. As mentioned above, you'll only need ten rounds or so, and they fly to the same POI, so practice with regular cast.

[white eagle]

I have made a few but never actually used them for hunting
I made a small dipper for pure lead
just enough to make my tip then I filled the rest of
cavity with the harder lead
I found that a hot mold worked best
also I did have parting lines and some of the tips fell off but some remained to this day
lately if I want that type of boolit action I employ hollow points with more malleable alloy
and powder coat

now that I think of it I do beieve that if I were to pc the soft nosed
boolits it may actually hold them together acting some what like a
mechanical bond

[bmortell]

i melt 40-1 in the nose, stir surface of it with piece of warm wire a few seconds before it freezes, freeze over, then fill with base material, freeze over, then set bottom of mold in pot until sprue melts, set flat on bench till solid again.

maybe slow but making 10 hunting bullets speed is the last thing on my priority list. methods pouring liquid in a liquid or hand heating a nose id spend more time worrying about if its perfect than just going the slow way.

[centershot]

i melt 40-1 in the nose, stir surface of it with piece of warm wire a few seconds before it freezes, freeze over, then fill with base material, freeze over, then set bottom of mold in pot until sprue melts, set flat on bench till solid again.

maybe slow but making 10 hunting bullets speed is the last thing on my priority list. methods pouring liquid in a liquid or hand heating a nose id spend more time worrying about if its perfect than just going the slow way.

This is the method BruceB developed all those years ago (may he rest in peace). He used pure lead for the nose, as do I, but nothing wrong with 40:1. If done this way you get a perfect solder joint of nose/body every time!

[Bowhunter73]

The guy's in one of our air rifle forums cast as a hollow point and while it's still hot drop a airsoft bb in the nose works great for expansion I know this isn't the same as what your talking about just thought I'd throw in another option.

[waksupi]

Iv'e done it in the past. Never really saw any difference in killing effectiveness.

[ChristopherO]

All excellent information that I appreciate, fellow Casters. For any other rifle I could HP or FP. For this chamber I have to go with a finer point, thus the flame treating the tips or the BruceB method sounds best for a box full of hunting projectiles. I am wondering if an XCB style with a soft tip would chamber reliably and mushroom appropriately in this old sporter, and think it just might. If anything, should I find out it won't be best for my intended purposes that is still an excellent target boolit design.

[quilbilly]

A week ago I did some terminal ballistics tests on two boolits, a 189 gr 358 WFPB at a muzzle velocity of 1350 fps and a 128 gr semi point plain base with a small me plat also at 1350 fps. Both boolits are from current NOE molds. The expansion of both into damp but not soaked phone books was to double for both (.6" for the 270 and .72 for the 358). Weight retention was well over 90% to near 100% for both. In either case, a hollow point couldn't do much better. My alloy is 65-70% pure lead and 30-35% hard, chilled birdshot with only a tiny bit of tin added (less than 1%). All boolits were water dropped.
Sadly, I couldn't do a valid penetration measurement due to problems that day but results on expansion and weight retention were interesting.

[Tripplebeards]

To much screwing around imo. If you want expansion use HP cast boolits.

[Walstr]

I've studied Bruce B's nose softening technique, but have not used it to date. Scanning through other pages I come across this from Paco Kelly,
"Here’s a trick I write about often...to get soft nose and hard body cast bullets, cast them hard and hot, frosty bullets are better no matter what the experts say... drop them from the mold into water to temper....then place your bullets standing in water to their shoulder just above the top crimp groove, so the nose is exposed....take a butane torch and run it over the noses sticking out of the water...this detempers just the noses, so you in effect have a soft nose-hard body, cast bullet. It takes a little practice...but as soon as you see the bullet noses change color at all, pull the flame...or the nose will slump over...it doesn’t take much flame time, especially on small caliber bullets. Cast bullets made this way will resist fouling but will expand in any size animal....from rabbits on up."

From all my years of toying around with lead this is the first time I've seen this described. If this is good then I can 'anneal' so to speak, the noses of certain round nose boolits to achieve the mushroom effect. Will need to try it out with the proper medium before using that on game, though.
Anyone else ever utilize this technique with good success?

Greetings; These observations from a hobby Blacksmith: His use of "temper" should be "quench", which makes them hard; his use of "detempers" describes "annealing" to soften. I like this process, it's simple, uncomplicated, no special equipment. I tried it once w/o the water & it seemed to pass the "hammer smack" test, comparing results to "dead lead" & my quenched pills. Thanks for sharing.

[ChristopherO]

To much screwing around imo. If you want expansion use HP cast boolits.

TB, If I could I would, but my description above shares that this rifle won't chamber a FN nor a HP. I've enjoyed reading of you "screwing around" quite a bit over the past few years with different alloys and boolit types to find what you want, and this is my journey to do the same. If it weren't fun then we would all just buy jacketed bullets and be done with it.

[missionary5155]

LFN cast of 50-50 (range scrap-ww) takes are of all our hunting needs. But we hunt river bottoms so 33 yards is till our longest shot on a corn cruncher.
And having used PC (tumble coat) on range scrap LFN I think we may be using those at 1800 fps until the worms can outrun us.
I still slice more bean eaters with a bow than any other method..

Hand guns get LFN range scrap Heavy slugs pushed to 850-1000 fps.

[Tripplebeards]

TB, If I could I would, but my description above shares that this rifle won't chamber a FN nor a HP. I've enjoyed reading of you "screwing around" quite a bit over the past few years with different alloys and boolit types to find what you want, and this is my journey to do the same. If it weren't fun then we would all just buy jacketed bullets and be done with it.

Good luck on your journey and keep us posted.

[Chill Wills]

i melt 40-1 in the nose, stir surface of it with piece of warm wire a few seconds before it freezes, freeze over, then fill with base material, freeze over, then set bottom of mold in pot until sprue melts, set flat on bench till solid again.
maybe slow but making 10 hunting bullets speed is the last thing on my priority list. methods pouring liquid in a liquid or hand heating a nose id spend more time worrying about if its perfect than just going the slow way.

The two part bullet worked well for me. I was inspired to hunt deer and elk with the two part cast bullet from a piece written in the CBA in the 1980's. I tried them in many of the medium calibers like 338-06, 35 Whelen, 375 H&H. The first time was in the Model 71 348 Winchester. NEI had a 235 grain bullet (GC) I liked in this rifle. 60 grains of H-4831 powered the bullet.

The CBA referenced 5% tin in the nose as being the toughest to hold up against the higher velocity of bottleneck cartridges. I set up two Lee 10lb bottom pour pots side by side. One with 20-1 alloy and one with WW and cast the bullets with the soft nose. Trial and error, starting with a bump of 20-1 in the nose and timed the remainder with WW. It takes a little timing to get the joint in the right place as well as a good joint, not mixing the two.

Though you get only culls at first, soon enough you are producing good bullets and really, you don't need that many. I did however make a lot (bullets) as I wanted to prove to myself that they would shoot into the same group with good accuracy.

So now you have a two part bullet and the body is WW. I heat treated them in the oven to harden the WW body. The lead tin nose stays soft. Only the WW hardens.

I tested many of these by shooting into four one gallon water jugs lined up with a large box of rags behind it to catch the bullets.

To my great joy, the first hunting season I used these, a large dry cow offered me a 200 yd broadside shot and I put one through the chest. There was no recovery of the bullet as it went in the right side and exited the left making a large hole. That cow did not go more than a few steps.

I liked it so much for the novelty of using cast that I kept going with it for about 10 years in different rifles. The bullets I did recover looked like and acted much Nosler partition bullets. Often loosing the nose half way in the game and the unexpanded base driving on.

I mostly stopped hunting with them when I began using BPCR rifles and black powder with soft cast bullets, 20-1, and softer.

[ChristopherO]

Chill Wills, This is exactly the valuable information I was hoping for when starting this thread. That explains the results of the two pour method that BruceB expounded on. (He was as wealth of information and an enjoyable writer, too) The BPCR game looks like a world of fun. My son and I stopped in at a BPCR shoot in Friendship, Indiana one day last spring while we were out riding our motorcycles. I love muzzleloaders and have loaded a few BP rounds for the Marlin CB for the fun of it. But what you do is serious business. Maybe some day I'll try my hand on the line.
Thank you for your input.


The two part bullet worked well for me. I was inspired to hunt deer and elk with the two part cast bullet from a piece written in the CBA in the 1980's. I tried them in many of the medium calibers like 338-06, 35 Whelen, 375 H&H. The first time was in the Model 71 348 Winchester. NEI had a 235 grain bullet (GC) I liked in this rifle. 60 grains of H-4831 powered the bullet.

The CBA referenced 5% tin in the nose as being the toughest to hold up against the higher velocity of bottleneck cartridges. I set up two Lee 10lb bottom pour pots side by side. One with 20-1 alloy and one with WW and cast the bullets with the soft nose. Trial and error, starting with a bump of 20-1 in the nose and timed the remainder with WW. It takes a little timing to get the joint in the right place as well as a good joint, not mixing the two.

Though you get only culls at first, soon enough you are producing good bullets and really, you don't need that many. I did however make a lot (bullets) as I wanted to prove to myself that they would shoot into the same group with good accuracy.

So now you have a two part bullet and the body is WW. I heat treated them in the oven to harden the WW body. The lead tin nose stays soft. Only the WW hardens.

I tested many of these by shooting into four one gallon water jugs lined up with a large box of rags behind it to catch the bullets.

To my great joy, the first hunting season I used these, a large dry cow offered me a 200 yd broadside shot and I put one through the chest. There was no recovery of the bullet as it went in the right side and exited the left making a large hole. That cow did not go more than a few steps.

I liked it so much for the novelty of using cast that I kept going with it for about 10 years in different rifles. The bullets I did recover looked like and acted much Nosler partition bullets. Often loosing the nose half way in the game and the unexpanded base driving on.

I mostly stopped hunting with them when I began using BPCR rifles and black powder with soft cast bullets, 20-1, and softer.

[Chill Wills]

ChristopherO, Thank you for letting me know I was able to provide some useful information. Please post your results as you go.