Black Ideal Lube

[Green Frog]

Does anyone know whether the currently available Ideal Bullet Lube (SKU 2857275) is the same as the stuff that was used in all the old Ideal lubricator sizer presses (#1 & #2) in the pre-War era? IIRC, that stuff was a little softer than NRA Formula 50-50 (Beeswax-Alox) and worked OK with just about anything besides ultra high pressure rounds. Now that I'm blessed with a couple of these older tools I'm thinking about going "old school" with one and using the black stuff in it.

TIA~Froggie

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I would have to say it's the same stuff.

from Lyman's website:

Ideal Lube, a Lyman Original.
Fill the bullet groove like a reloading pro with the Ideal Lube. The original, all-purpose Lyman formula. All Lyman stick lubricants are hollow and fit the 4500 Sizer/ Lubricator and similar Sizing/Lubricating tools, including RCBS.

Due to Canadian Health regulations, this item cannot be sold to customers located in Canada.

I was told by another member here, that it contains Lamp Black. I wonder if that is basically soot? and I wonder if that is known to cause cancer in California?

[Green Frog]

I had heard it was powdered graphite... of course both of these are varieties of carbon. I guess next time I'm getting an order together from one of the major suppliers I'll order a stick of it to see whether it will function as hoped for, then try to seek out a good supply if it meets expectations. I've got a bunch of NRA type 50-50 to use for now, so I'm wondering whether it will be worthwhile to add another item to the mix. My buddy Dale53 is after me to use some LLS Carnauba Red for high temp, hard wax applications, and I've got a big batch of Emmert's for BP use, and then there's my super secret proprietary Frog Guano for Schuetzen... I really need another type of lube, don't I? :roll:

Froggie

[ButchC]

I'd second Green Frog. I was poking through Ideal #38 this morning and it has a section on the lubes offered and the #45 lube sizer. I can picture the word graphite on the page.

PDF is online and will have some more detail on the original blend. Lyman should have an SDS for the new sku and that will probably be your closest bet at comparing them.

[gnostic]

I think it's moly in Lyman lube...

[gwpercle]

The old Lyman black lube contained a base of beeswax and something called Colloidal Graphite , I searched the term and got a explanation that is above my pay grade... something about a super fine suspension that allows the molecules to move in between and bind ...
The first Lube I ever used... It's OK but a newer Lithium-Beeswax lube is superior to the old school Colloidal Graphite - Beeswax lube in most ways .
The old black stuff will do for standard pressure handgun loads.
Gary

[Green Frog]

I think it's moly in Lyman lube...

Lyman sells a black lube that is labeled Moly, but there is another one on their webpage that is just called Ideal Lube, and it is black like the old original stuff was.

BTW, colloidal graphite was found in several old classic lube formulae including, IIRC, ones by Aldo Leupould and Harry Pope.

Froggie

[Geezer in NH]

I remember it as being filthy on the gun and hands after shooting. Very Smokey so much others at the club range complained. It was the first lube I used in 1970, I used 2 sticks and then was given a red lube I believe was called javlinas.

That cut the filth and smoke in at least 75%

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Years ago, when the member told me it was Lamp Black, the discussion was about the wax. Some thought the base was paraffin. As a test, I heated canning wax til molten and put drops on a napkin, then smelled it. It has a distinct smell, but it is faint. Then I did the same with Crayola brand Crayons. Then did the same with the Vintage Ideal Lube. They all smelled the same.

Anyone with any amount of smelling ability can smell Beeswax, it is very strong and distinct. I get no beeswax smell in warmed/molten vintage Ideal Lube. I'd need to see some proof to convince me the vintage Ideal Lube has beeswax in it.

Also, from what I understand, soot, Lamp Black, Graphite, Colloidal Graphite are all similar forms of carbon black and would do essentially the same thing, functionally, in a boolit lube.

[ubetcha]

I would have to say it's the same stuff.

from Lyman's website:


I was told by another member here, that it contains Lamp Black. I wonder if that is basically soot? and I wonder if that is known to cause cancer in California?

Everything causes cancer in Komifornia! Just read the labels on everything.😕

[gwpercle]

Lyman sells a black lube that is labeled Moly, but there is another one on their webpage that is just called Ideal Lube, and it is black like the old original stuff was.

BTW, colloidal graphite was found in several old classic lube formulae including, IIRC, ones by Aldo Leupould and Harry Pope.

Froggie

In layman's terms can you explain what "Colloidal" Graphite is ? I've seen it in many old lubes , Lyman Ideal and Herter's Lube being the oldest I've used. I get the impression it is a superfine graphite mixed with something else ... but don't really have a grasp on what the stuff is .

Can you help me ?
Gary

[gwpercle]

Everything causes cancer in Komifornia! Just read the labels on everything.��

I saw a report that stated undocumented workers might cause cancer in Komiifornial !

[Green Frog]

I saw a report that stated undocumented workers might cause cancer in Komiifornial !

No, it’s being legal in Kalifornia that will get you in trouble... undocumented or illegal is fine with special status.
[smilie=l:

[Green Frog]

The term colloidal is a precise description of a substance that will remain in suspension once it has been mixed. One of the colloidal forms of graphite used in the old time classic lube mixes was ultra fine graphite particles in a light oil carrier. They called it colloidal but you were still advised to shake the can before using it. ;)

Froggie

PS I seem to remember one brand name, “Oildag.”

[Dale53]

Froggie;
I am still happy with Carnauba Red for all of my smokeless loads in rifle and pistol. It DOES require heat when using either the Star sizer/luber, the RCBS, or Lyman. I do not consider that a problem. I seldom shoot black powder these days, but when I do I use Improved Emmerts.

FWIW
Dale53

[Green Frog]

Froggie;
I am still happy with Carnauba Red for all of my smokeless loads in rifle and pistol. It DOES require heat when using either the Star sizer/luber, the RCBS, or Lyman. I do not consider that a problem. I seldom shoot black powder these days, but when I do I use Improved Emmerts.

FWIW
Dale53

Yes Dale, I find myself somewhat luber and sizer "poor" at this point... I'm thinking of Emmert's in one of my early #1s and original Ideal Black in another, then NRA 50-50 (from whoever) in one of the 450s and "Panama Red" in the Star with a heater. Then I need to decide whether to put Frog Guano in the other #1 or the other 450 and perhaps sell "the odd one out." I'm trying to decide whether I really need six luber/sizers in addition to my three Dell Lube Pumps and my (copy of a) Pope Lube Pump by Joe Ruth. :confused:

I guess I'll just have to shoot a lot more! :guntootsmiley:

Froggie

[Bent Ramrod]

Colloidal particles are larger than molecules but smaller than one micron in size, typically dispersed (or dispersible) in another phase and difficult or impossible to filter or centrifuge back out.

I think I have one lubrisizer with the old black Ideal lube, and maybe one other where the lube still comes out as streaks in the Javelina lube that I generally use now. The Ideal stuff was either in the lubrisizer I found used, or was found for cheep at a gun show and used more out of a sense of obligation than anything else.

As far as I’ve been able to determine, the only thing the old Ideal lube had over other formulations was its ability to stain clothes and hands to near indelible levels. A “speshul-secret” lube I made up of stockroom chemicals included one of those “Dags,” or colloidal graphites, and is just as messy as the Lyman stuff. An engineer colleague I described this to told me that the lubricating properties of graphite are actually pretty limited, and at their best in environments (like locks) where better lubricants would attract dust and dirt, and by doing so, negate their effect.

[Green Frog]

Hey BR,

Thanks forr chiming in! Good info on both colloids and graphite. I’m betting you’ve read the comments on his own lube studies by my old friend and mentor, the late Charlie Dell, right? I wish he were still here to chat with on the subject, but I’ll have to pull out his book on the “modern” practice of Schuetzen and a couple of his articles in the old American Single Shot Rifle News to refresh my memory on what he had to say about graphite in bullet lube. :coffee:

Anyway, I’ve got at least one old Ideal #1 Lubricator/Sizer that currently contains the old Ideal Bullet Lube, and since it would be so hard to get out, maybe I should use it as my “old school” tool for adding lubricant. Since it’s there already, I won’t be going “backwards” by continuing to use that lube in that tool. :D.

BTW, I once bought a Winchester Model 1894 tool with a cigarette tin full of cast bullets for 32-40. They had probably been cast and lubed with the old black Ideal lube for at least 30 years when I got them, but the lube was still in place evenly and did what it was supposed to when loaded and fired. Longevity is not a problem! 8-)

Regards,
Froggie

PS You may recall that one of Charlie’s lube articles described the action of the lubricant molecules as behaving at the molecular level like a “fur coat” around the bullet, between lead and bore steel. That inspired me to put the best fur coat possible in my lube, so Frog Guano was formulated with mink oil as a tip of the hat to Charlie. ;)

[gwpercle]

The term colloidal is a precise description of a substance that will remain in suspension once it has been mixed. One of the colloidal forms of graphite used in the old time classic lube mixes was ultra fine graphite particles in a light oil carrier. They called it colloidal but you were still advised to shake the can before using it. ;)

Froggie

PS I seem to remember one brand name, “Oildag.”

Thanks for the layman's explanation ... the colloidal graphite mixed with beeswax would seem to be a easy to blend lube with decent properties for low pressure handgun loads .
It does blacken up your guns when fired like all get out... but I might use too much in those Keith SWC lube grooves ... I can say I never had any leading problems with it and bores were left shiny and bright !
Gary

[Green Frog]

Thanks for the layman's explanation ... the colloidal graphite mixed with beeswax would seem to be a easy to blend lube with decent properties for low pressure handgun loads .
It does blacken up your guns when fired like all get out... but I might use too much in those Keith SWC lube grooves ... I can say I never had any leading problems with it and bores were left shiny and bright !
Gary

Use of colloidal graphite was not limited to low pressure pistol bullets. Around the turn of the last century when the single shot rifles ruled the target ranges, lubes by such luminaries as Aldo Leupold and Harry Pope used it as well. Their target velocity, lead bullet loads thrived on those lubes. There was also a petroleum based mineral lube called Ozekerite used as well as tallow from various animals. Some of their formulae really seem strange to the modern shooter.

Froggie

PS I like to add just a touch of carnauba wax to my “classic” lubes to slick up and polish my bore.

[Eddie Southgate]

I used nothing but the original black Ideal lube for over 40 years with no issues other than dirty hands . Still love it for anything but the faster rifle stuff .

[Bent Ramrod]

GF,

My copy of the Dell&Schwartz book is the later revision. I seem to recall that they mentioned that they had cut out a lot of “obsolete” material from the first edition, so some of the formulations might have been lost then; also any old formulation that had poorly-characterized or currently unavailable ingredients was not listed. The only graphite containing formula I saw in there is the Pope lubricant, and the authors mentioned that it was not used in very many formulations, either then or now.

I use the Ideal lube in mild smokeless loadings of rifle and pistol calibers. I have to say that the search for the “best, most accurate” lube formula is pretty much lost on me. My noise-to-signal ratio in shooting is too high to distinguish such subtleties.

I wish now I’d left the graphite out of my mixture. I might have used it up by now. One of my old formulation mentors at work used to rail about “fruitcake formulas,” those that had a string of ingredients in them whose purpose was not particularly clear. I guess another analog is the “inspiration stew,” where the cook puts everything he has into it. Whether adding a dry lubricant, (whose main advantage is working in a dry environment) to a non-dry mixture that already has lubricating properties adds anything extra is something I’m not in a position to determine.

[AZ Pete]

I would have to say it's the same stuff.

from Lyman's website:


I was told by another member here, that it contains Lamp Black. I wonder if that is basically soot? and I wonder if that is known to cause cancer in California?

If it contains lamp black, which is carbon black, it would likely only be used to color the product. Carbon black adds strength and wear characteristics to tires and mechanical rubber goods among a wide variety of other uses, such as making printers ink (its original use). Lamp black likely refers to the earliest method of making carbon black..by burning a natural gas flame under a steel plate, then scraping it off.

I worked in a carbon plant in my youth, and my dad was a rubber chemist.

[kreuzlover]

My first press was a Lyman c-press. Cast iron, good beginner press. I used it for about 5 years and then moved on to an RCBS Junior. I still have the Junior, and still load lots of ammo on it. The old black Lyman lube was my first lube for cast bullets, and worked extremely well. I now make my own lube with 1lb of beeswax, one 14oz tube of Valvoline synthetic high pressure bearing grease that contains lithium and moly. To that mixture I add two tubes of Lyman Moly lube and a big heaping tablespoon of Vaseline. Highest velocity I shoot out of my Ruger KS-411n 10.5" barreled revolver is averaging 1496 fps, and no leading.

[zarrinvz24]

I would have to say it's the same stuff.

from Lyman's website:


I was told by another member here, that it contains Lamp Black. I wonder if that is basically soot? and I wonder if that is known to cause cancer in California?

Everything causes cancer in Cali. I remember being alarmed at the sign loudly stating that cancer causing contaminants were present in my apartment complex property. After an inquiry to the leasing office we learned that the sign was required to be posted because there were bbq grills, carpet, paint, drywall, and asphalt on the property. Absolutely ridiculous.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Ideal lube contained some powdered mica, which was a popular lubricant before WW2. I'm not sure if that would be responsible for the black color though.

[Green Frog]

Charlie was a dear friend and mentor. In fact, I helped with the revision you have... cleaning up wording etc, not any real content. One of the criteria Charlie set was that he would avoid spending time on proprietary formulae. He wanted anything he wrote about to be available to whoever read his book. He left out his review of SPG for that reason, but Steve still thought enough of him to sell his books. I shipped him a couple of cases of them even after Charlie passed away.

I assume you have Roberts and Waters book of the Single Shot Target Rifles... I can't lay my hands on mine right now, but most of what I know about lubricants that I didn't get from Charlie either came from that or from one of the Gerald O Kelver books. Up to the time these were written, the formula to the old Aldo Leopould lubricant was regarded as the "Holy Grail" of lubes and was probably even used by Pope, even though he apparently made a similar mix of his own. Of course both of them contained colloidal graphite.

Of course the first of Charlie's Laws of Lubrication was "Thou shalt use no petroleum products in lubes for schuetzen rifles." He was adamant about that and took delight in recounting one episode where another famous player in the schuetzen game was using his standard mix of 50-50 paraffin and vaseline with a dash of RCBS case lube added. He smugly reported the strings of lead that the shooter harvested from his barrel after shooting for the day. He took this as proof positive that he was right that petrochemicals and lead bullets don't mix (rightly or wrongly!) Both the shooter in question and Charlie are gone now, but both were friends of mine and I had some interesting conversations with both about the event! :wink:

I still think I'll keep one of my several lubricator sizers loaded with the black stuff just for old times' sake. I like to go retro every now and then, and since I have enough of them to indulge my idiosyncrasies. :mrgreen:

Froggie

[Bent Ramrod]

Glad to hear that, GF; I had some memory that certain no-longer-produced rifle actions had been dropped in the latest edition. There’s no greater certainty of finding some weird artifact than after the factory drops support, the reviewers lose interest, the exploded drawings disappear, and the manuals go into file cabinets to get lost.

I have a Lachmiller, a couple #1s, a bunch of 45s and even a pre-Redding SAECO I’ve picked up over the years, most for $9-$25 each, which is “gun show souvenir money” in these inflated times. They allow the luxury of filling them with experimental or offbeat standard lubes for testing or “just to be different.” A couple of them are workhorses that just get filled with “whatever’s next,” and I watch the streaks and stripes come out on the boolits for however long it takes.

When I left my first job, I took with me all the samples of waxes that had been tested as possible coating candidates over the years, intending to use them in experimental boolit lube formulae. So far, I’ve only used the beeswax, but I’m sure there’s a barn-burner in that box somewhere! (And, of course, when discovered, the manufacturer will be defunct or merged, and nobody will know what it is any more.)

There were a bunch of small sticks of Alox waxes at my last job; all different numbers and melting points. Apparently, the chem supply houses sold them to keep ground glass joints sealed, but detachable after use. I never used the stuff on glassware, and left it there. None of them were 2138 (or whatever it is), and I figured the NRA had checked them all out already.

Graphite is a lower crystalline form of carbon, the atoms arranged in sheets, which can slide on each other. Lampblack or other forms of soot are amorphous, of no particular lubricating ability whatsoever, although, as noted, they do strengthen polymer composites marvelously.

I guess molybdenum disulfide also has some crystal morphology that gives it sliding properties. I have a stick of Lyman Moly around that I guess I’ll have to use up eventually. It looks to be as messy as the Lyman/Ideal stuff.

I wish now that I’d downloaded Dan Theodore’s exhaustive black-powder lube experiments that he detailed on the Shiloh and Historic Shooting sites. Reading page after page on a computer screen gives me narcolepsy, so I never got very far with the reading, and then he deleted everything.

[Green Frog]

Re Moly Disulphide; I’ve been told it’s unbelievably slick, so much so that it became problematic for a friend who used a dab on the sear of his 45 Hardball Gun right before a big match and failed because his trigger weight went down so much! I also “heard” that people who experimented with a dip-type moly coating for benchrest back in the late ‘80s- early ‘90s gave up on it because it built up in the bore and gave unpredictable results... sort of a “reverse lube purging” phenomenon. That was second hand reporting, but the source was usually pretty dependable; unfortunately he passed away about ten years ago so I can’t get further confirmation.

If there was a “magic lube ingredient” for Charlie, it may have been spermaceti, and he later experimented with a synthetic spermaceti and with jojoba oil. I think Willis Gregory inherited most of Charlie’s lube stuff and became “Keeper of the Sacred Flame” after Charlie passed away. Sorry to hear Dan Theodore’s data from his experiments is no longer posted. From what I understand it was done thoroughly and scientifically. Is he still shooting, and does the body of info still exist anywhere you know of?

Froggie

[Green Frog]

I just googled DT and was reminded of his passing. What a loss! Do you know whether anyone picked up on the manuscripts of the book he was working on so it could be finished?

[skeet1]

I have used many different kinds including home made all of them worked ok, some better than others. However I have been using Carnuba Red for some time now and without a doubt it is the best I have tried and for the price I don't think there is any better.

[Green Frog]

I have used many different kinds including home made all of them worked ok, some better than others. However I have been using Carnuba Red for some time now and without a doubt it is the best I have tried and for the price I don't think there is any better.

“Panama Red” is definitely on my list... probably to go into my newly-acquired Star, once I can scare up funds to add the RCBS heater with rheostat I want for it. I’ve used it a lot while visiting Dale53 who runs it in his Star with a Lyman heater, and it is definitely on my “good stuff” list! :coffee:

Froggie

[Chill Wills]

Sorry to hear Dan Theodore’s data from his experiments is no longer posted. From what I understand it was done thoroughly and scientifically. Is he still shooting, and does the body of info still exist anywhere you know of?

Froggie

Yes. DanT is gone. He removed almost all traces of his data online with the idea he would put out a book. All that went up in the house fire that took his life. I miss Dan as many of us do. He had contact with shooters across the country and was very generous with information and in some cases "stuff".

Dan and I shot together and shared motels in Phoenix and Raton from time to time. I miss his many phone calls.

[Mal Paso]

I've been shooting a version of Glen Fryxell's black lube for 10 years now. 2/3 Beeswax and 1/3 StaLube MolyGraph Grease. I shoot revolvers usually less than 1500 fps. I brush the bore and run a dry patch every 200 rounds or so, no solvent. The bores are like mirrors and nothing really sticks.

There are no first shot issues. My first shot is often a bullseye, maintaining that level is another thing. LOL

[Minerat]

I use the moly-bee mix too but add a scosh of paraffin wax so it is a little harder. Make sure you cook it outside or you'll stink up your garage.:oops: