500 grain non gas checked bullet

[Drilln]

Here's the deal, I found some data (OK one load, but its a place to start) for a 500 gr. cast bullet for my S&W 460 magnum that will push them to around 1500 fps. I have found 2 moulds that I like but the one I like the best is not gas checked, but it would have some serious advantages over the second over distance due to a much better BC. My big delimma is wether the non gas checked bullet can handle the pressure or not. So what do you think, to check ot not to check? I am sure there are way more experianced people than I that can chime in.........

[44man]

I don't know about the .460 with the pressures because you are wanting to load at the very top end with that heavy boolit. Then you might have a problem getting all the powder in unless the crimp groove is in the right place. You might have to crimp somewhere else.
I can only say recoil will make you think twice! [smilie=1:
I shoot PB boolits from my 45-70 BFR at over 1600 fps and from my .475 BFR at over 1300 fps. They are super accurate. But my pressures are not what you will be shooting so others have to tell you if you need a gas check.
I don't know how important BC is with a revolver either and whether you are just looking at a few inches with the heavy boolits. I shoot a 420 WFN out of my .475 and it has half the drop at 200 yd's that my .44 does with a 320 gr WLN. 18" for the .475 and 35" with the .44. The 45-70 only drops 16" with a 317 gr boolit and 18" with a 378 gr.
I shoot ungodly distances for fun, out to 500 meters, with my revolvers with better accuracy then I ever thought possible so I don't think I would worry about boolit shape unless you shoot the light, super fast bullets for a flat trajectory.
When you worry about BC you have to explain to us what your longest ranges are going to be.

[dk17hmr]

......500 gr. cast bullet for my S&W 460 magnum that will push them to around 1500 fps.....

Have fun with that.

[Lloyd Smale]

best advice i could give you is that if you want to shoot 500 grain bullets save your money and pick up a 500.
Here's the deal, I found some data (OK one load, but its a place to start) for a 500 gr. cast bullet for my S&W 460 magnum that will push them to around 1500 fps. I have found 2 moulds that I like but the one I like the best is not gas checked, but it would have some serious advantages over the second over distance due to a much better BC. My big delimma is wether the non gas checked bullet can handle the pressure or not. So what do you think, to check ot not to check? I am sure there are way more experianced people than I that can chime in.........

[357tex]

Makes me hurt just thinking about that![smilie=l:

[Drilln]

I don't know about the .460 with the pressures because you are wanting to load at the very top end with that heavy boolit. Then you might have a problem getting all the powder in unless the crimp groove is in the right place. You might have to crimp somewhere else.
I can only say recoil will make you think twice! [smilie=1:
I shoot PB boolits from my 45-70 BFR at over 1600 fps and from my .475 BFR at over 1300 fps. They are super accurate. But my pressures are not what you will be shooting so others have to tell you if you need a gas check.
I don't know how important BC is with a revolver either and whether you are just looking at a few inches with the heavy boolits. I shoot a 420 WFN out of my .475 and it has half the drop at 200 yd's that my .44 does with a 320 gr WLN. 18" for the .475 and 35" with the .44. The 45-70 only drops 16" with a 317 gr boolit and 18" with a 378 gr.
I shoot ungodly distances for fun, out to 500 meters, with my revolvers with better accuracy then I ever thought possible so I don't think I would worry about boolit shape unless you shoot the light, super fast bullets for a flat trajectory.
When you worry about BC you have to explain to us what your longest ranges are going to be.

My goal for the load is to still have enough energy at 250 yards to be effective on elk. I am not so much concerned with bullet drop as I am with retained energy at distance. I can compensate for bullet drop, and I know I might be looking for a little overkill, but unfortunatly, that is my personality. As for those that question why not the 500? it is simple really, I am not after the most powerfull handgun out there, I want a long range hunter. If my normal shots were 50 to maybe 100 yards then the 500 would be the ticket, or if I was after bear defense even. Plus I already have the 460 and my wife might get a little pissy if I dump that much money on another gun right now.

[44man]

I can understand the wifey thing! :mrgreen:
But I think the next job you will have is to see if that big boolit is stable with the rate of twist to give the accuracy you need way out there.
Only you or someone with .460 experience shooting heavy boolits can answer that. I have a hunch the twist is too slow.

[Drilln]

I can understand the wifey thing! :mrgreen:
But I think the next job you will have is to see if that big boolit is stable with the rate of twist to give the accuracy you need way out there.
Only you or someone with .460 experience shooting heavy boolits can answer that. I have a hunch the twist is too slow.


That I understand, I just don't want to order the mould if the bullet won't handle the pressure, then I would order the gas checked mould and live with less performance. I just want this project to have the best chance of success. I am kinda hoping for some input from people with experiance with the 460 and big bullets, I know they are out there, Ranger Rick is making even bigger bullets than that. I am hoping that the variable gain twist in my S&W will do the trick.

[44man]

The gain twist is a great idea allowing the boolit to start turning slower so it doesn't skid and I wish all the other big cannons had it. Kind of a problem with different length barrels though. To do it right, every barrel length needs a different rate. But if the start of the gain is short, it would still work. I never looked down the bore of a S&W.
What counts is the final rate and the amount of spin when the boolit leaves the muzzle.
You can shoot about anything as long as it fits the gun but you will find every twist needs a short range of boolits for maximum accuracy with the velocity each boolit can attain.
For instance, my .475 BFR refuses to shoot light boolits and is at it's best from 400 to 420 gr's. As I go heavier, accuracy degrades again. This is not as bad as the light boolits because I have a very fast twist. But before I can gain enough velocity with say a 460 gr, I would run into over pressures so I don't go there.
Slow the twist like the Freedom and the best boolits are from 325 to 400 gr's.
Sure, if the load fits the guns, they will shoot the whole range of weights but there is still a range where the gun is it's most accurate.
And that would worry me, going outside that range for very long distance shooting.
I hope there are some here that have shot heavy boolits from the .460 out to 200 yd's or more. 25 yd shooters need not apply! [smilie=1:
The elk is a large animal but you still need to place a boolit in the boiler room at 250 yd's. I think you need supreme accuracy for that kind of shooting.
C'mon fellas, join in here and help out. :Fire:
(You might find that nobody has shot that far with heavy boolits.)

[500bfrman]

Have you contacted ranger rick about this? See what he has to say. And your wife will get over it. You weren't trying to say that you could only shoot the 500 s/w 50 yards are you?

[Drilln]

Have you contacted ranger rick about this? See what he has to say. And your wife will get over it. You weren't trying to say that you could only shoot the 500 s/w 50 yards are you?

No I wasn't saying you couldn't/shouldn't shoot a 500 mag past 50 yards. If you haven't noticed I am not the most eloquint speaker/writer out there. I was trying to illistrate that ballisticly speaking the 460 has the advantage for distance over the 500, and vice versa, the 500 has the advantage for close work.

As for contacting ranger Rick directly, I have not yet. I was opening the question up to as many people as I could to try and get as much info as possible (also part of my overkill personality). Plus RR is in the business of selling bullets and I feel kinda bad asking for help when I plan on making my own over buying his. I guess I will just hang my head and ask pretty please............[smilie=1:

[Drilln]

(You might find that nobody has shot that far with heavy boolits.)

You may be right, maybe I will start a trend (not likely, I am just strange and stubborn).

[Lloyd Smale]

personaly cant see where the 460 has a ballistic advantage over a 500 shooting 500 grain bullets. the 500 can no doubt push them quite a bit faster and with a big heavy bullet like that ballistic cofiecientcy isnt going to make much of a difference at out to 200 yards and a .501 even with a slightly poorer bc is going to have a bigger metplat as an lfn then a 45 is going to with a wfn. Niether is going to shoot flat. I guess a guy can do things just to do them but i never could see pushing those extreamly heavy bullets some guys do in the 460 and even the 500. A 350-375 grain bullet would kill just as well and be alot more effeicent and shoot flatter (if that means anything) I guess ill bow out of this cause im still one that thinks shooting game at 200 yards with a wheelgun is a stunt for about all but a handfull of handgun hunters in this country and i dont count myself amoung them.

[500bfrman]

I guess it all depends upon whether or not he sells what you are trying to do. I have always found him to be great to talk to. and I doubt there is a whole lot of people shootin 250 yards with 500 grains in a 45.

[missionary5155]

I do not have any of the mentioned revolvers... But I do shoot alot of 45 calibers rifles when up there. I also read history. Buff hunters shot Tons of buff with 400 grain plus boolits out to generally 300-500 yards. I have not read every book but I have never read any book that said a 400 grain was not suffiecient to harvest buffs out to 300 yards. That is with a starting velocity of 1200-1350 fps. So if my thinker is working there are NO elk over a ton (maybe 2 froze together this year). So if your hand cannon can shoot a 400 grain what more do you need... unless there are some wholly tuskers still tromping up that hidden ravine.
I also understand the Experiment mode... I have a double "Rifle" that I shoot .685 Round ball out of (Fox B 12 gauge with reamed chokes) and like I really Need To in Illinois. I just loaded some 250 grain boolits for my 44-40 Colt New Service and wil give them a try. But would I try a 300 grain.. is there any advantage ??

[Drilln]

For thos who don't see why I am wanting the better BC, I ran the numbers through some ballistic sotware. The non gas checked mold has a BC of .443 with a muzzel velocity of 1536 the 500 grain bullt is still traveling at 1175 fps with 1531 ft# of energy 12.39 inches of drop at 250 yards with a 200 yard zero (the drop is not important to me as that can be compensated for but I added it to show the difference). The gas checked mould has a BC of .278 which drops the 250 yard stats to 1036 fps 1193 ft# and a drop of 15.07. The number that intrests me the most is the energy. There is a 338 ft# difference, which is significant. Before anybody jumps on me about this, I know that this is computed data, not real world results. Once put into action, I may find that this whole idea was just rotton thinking, but it seems not to many have tried it, so why not.

As for the 500 mag, all the data I have looked at puts the 500 grainers out at 1300 - 1450ish at the muzzel (havent done extensive research, just some quick searches), and simaler bullets will have an even lower BC, which leaves me to give the distance advantage to the 460. (The 460 is capable of pushing the same wieght projectile faster due to the fact it is designed for about 10K more pressure) I am sure there is more load data out there to really hot rod the 500, but even so when I bought the gun, I was looking at factory ammo and the 460 just had the better numbers for what I wanted.

As for hunting out to 250 yards with a revolver, I am currently only comfortable with shots to 150 with this gun, but improving all the time. My goal is to be able to print good enough groups, at 250 yards, with a load with enough energy, to drop an elk with a clean kill. Will I ever achieve this? I believe I can, but even if I don't the journey has been fun so far.

[Drilln]

Missonary, you have a real valid point, and I have been looking at some 400 grain stuff, but when I came across the 2 500 grain moulds and the load data to load them, I decided that this would be my next project. If I can't get satisfactory results with this, then I will drop down to some lighter boolits like the 400 grainers. One thing I like about the 460, is being able to match the venerable 45-70 rifle out of a handgun.

[Lloyd Smale]

even if you can get it to shoot accurately with the rate of twist. Shooting game out that far with a wheelgun especially one with a trajectory like you going to get is a stunt in my opinion. I would think its doubtfull that you will get that heavy of a bullet to stablize good enough for even close range accuracy and i really doubt if it will fly long range. Your theroy on a hand held 4570 is a good one. One ive used myself to justify the power of a 475 or 500. Dont get to anal about retained velocity. Energy figures are about useless when it comes to rating the killing power of a handgun. Bottom line is if you can get your gun to deliver that bullet even at 700 fps its going to do a hell of alot of penetrating even on buffalo sized animals. Thats what will kill the animal. A hole drilled into its vitals. You will NOT shock a bufflao with ANY handgun. Ive watched them take hits from a 500 linebaugh and keep right on eating until they realized they were dead and fell over.

[doghawg]

Drilln

I'd suggest heading over to handloads.com in the handgun forum. There is a guy there who tried 500 gr. bullets in a .45/70 BFR over a nasty load of 4198 for around 1500 fps...they were keyholing at 25 yards....

[Drilln]

I contacted Ranger Rick and got the answere I was looking for about the gas check, he figures at 1500 fps, I shouldn't need a gas check. So I am a go on the bullet I wanted. I will post my results when I get it all together.

On a side note, Ranger Rick mentioned that he is loading 535 grain bullets in his 14 inch 460 XVR at over 1900 fps. So hopefully 500's at 1500 will stabalize in my 8 3/8 inch XVR. If RR were having stabalization problems, I don't think he would continue with the load. Can't wait to put all this in motion. I guess I am at a loss on why everyone thinks the bullet won't stabalize, as the loads I have played with so far (200, 240, 300 and a few 350 grainers) my gun prefered the heavyer bullets. It may not carry out thru 500 grains, but I think that it will, and if not I will use the bullets in sabots for my muzzel loader.

Thanks for all the help and comments.

[44man]

Keep us posted with long range groups. This will be an interesting experiment.
Doghawg, I can understand the BFR thing. My 45-70 BFR HATES 4198 with large pressure excursions. I have four bullets/boolits I shoot from mine. The 300 gr Hornady, a 317 GC, 330 GC and a 378 gr PB. All will shoot under 1" groups at 100 yd's. I have had the Hornady to 1800 fps for a trial but it shoots super just over 1600 fps. The others are over 1600 fps for the most accuracy.
I use ONLY 4759 in mine with a Fed 155 primer.
I have gone to a little over 400 gr boolits but accuracy suffers, from 400 to 500 is just out of the zone even with the fast twist. The twist is 1 in 14" by the way and if it will not stabilize a 500 gr boolit, I don't know what will.
The only effective bullet on deer is the Hornady. The hard cast boolits go through deer so fast they do almost no internal damage. I firmly believe the pressure wave in front of the WLN and WFN boolits are moving tissue out of the way. A double lung hit runs three to five times farther then with the .44 or .45 and the blood trail is not as good. Opening the deer shows the lungs are still there with just a hole through them. I need to cast boolits that expand to slow them down in the deer.
Proof that energy in itself does not kill, only boolit work kills. Six perfect hits on deer have all given me trouble but the Hornady puts them down fast.
Now a 420 gr WLN or WFN from the .475 at a little over 1300 fps REALLY eats up the insides of a deer and they don't go anywhere.
Now the hardcast 45-70 boolit would work at 200 yd's or more because it has slowed enough to work. Too much speed is not always good unless the boolit expands.

[Jim]

I've got two 45-70 rifles, one a Marlin and the other a Gibbs. I run 500 gr. RN Bore Riders through both on a regular basis. 1500 FPS is not tops velocity achievable, but it ain't far from about all you want.
I can't imagine what the recoil on a handgun's gonna be with that kind of weight/velocity factor.

[44man]

It is a strange world when working with the 45-70 revolver compared to a rifle. The fast twist works to perfection in the revolver with the lighter boolits but in the rifle a 1 in 18" twist works with very heavy boolits.
In the BPCR it is hard to get 1200 fps yet the huge boolits shoot. But not always! I have several boolits that have shot 1-1/2" to 2" at 200 yd's but I can't keep them on the berm at 500 meters. Then the plain old 500 gr gov't boolit is accurate way out there. The only thing I have learned is the 45-70 BPCR is the hardest gun to find the right boolit for.
Twist can drive you nuts and the only way to know is to try everything in your gun.
I don't know why but a faster twist seems to work better in the revolvers.
It would be interesting to know what the .460 Smith's rate of twist actually works out to and what boolits it really likes.
So I am with Drilln and his experiments even though I agree that the heavy boolit is not needed for big game. We have nothing to lose with his trials but we will gain knowledge.
Even though most hunting is at close ranges, I am all for shooting extreme ranges for practice, fun and to see what boolits do.
Even though I clang steel rams at 500 meters and have little trouble hitting tin cans at 200 yd's with my revolvers from Creedmore or sandbags, my hunting is all off hand and I limit shots to 100 yd's but prefer less, much less.
There is no more fun then to go to the range and hit the little targets that the rifle shooters are missing at long range! :drinks::drinks: A lot of you don't know what you are missing out on until you see their faces! :mrgreen::mrgreen: I kept 4 out of 5 on a 6" swinger at 400 yd's with my .475 one day by setting my red dot on top of the 500 meter berm above the steel. Some of the rifle guys packed up and went home! :bigsmyl2: Others came and talked.
Did I tell you I HATE 25 yd's?

[felix]

44man, you too know why, but you just forgot. The more freebore you have, the more twist you need. The shorter the boolit you have, the easier it is to get started rotating which gives less slippage up front. If the slippage on any boolit goes beyond the base, then essentially the boolit becomes the equivalent to a smoothbore ball in flight. ... felix

[44man]

True Felix but it doesn't explain long range accuracy with a boolit that does not match what the twist SHOULD be for the boolit weight.
Does not explain the BPCR either as to why it is so picky. After shooting this BFR for years, I wish I had a 1 in 14 BPCR to play with.
I have some 500 gr boolits I will test in the BFR. I will post after.