1911 Full length Guide Rod? Reasons to upgrade?

[VariableRecall]

My brother, GalvinGround, has been debating whether or not he should get a full length guide rod for his new RIA 1911FS. As far as I know the only difference it's going to make is to prevent the spring from potentially kinking. The RIA 1911FS has a parkerized finish, which makes the majority of the guide rods available not very fitting for the finish.

What exactly are the reasons to switch? Which kits have worked best for you?

[godzilla]

My experience has been with a GI Norinco and a Kimber Custom. Smoother to rack was the only advantage I could see or feel, both went bang just fine. My thoughts are put the money towards ammo.

[tazman]

Most of the experienced 1911 shooters I questioned about this said forget the full length rod. It can cause more problems than it solves.
You almost never hear of a recoil spring kinking and failing.

[GasGuzzler]

I have a RIA that came with the long guide rod. I changed all the nose parts to GI parts, closed cap, short rod. Why? I can rack it one-handed and it looks like a 1911 now. Yes, it's blued and has no rail. But my lever guns are blued with no scopes so...

Hey, I took the ambi off and replaced it with GI because although I am half left-handed, I won't need that giant safety on it. Yes, I left the skeleton trigger and hammer on it.

[DougGuy]

That's basically a GI 45 model 1911A1, it never needed a full length guide rod in 73 years of military service with MILLIONS of 1911A1 pistols. Let me ask the entirety of our members here, a few of which have been around since before Viet Nam, if anyone has ever pulled apart a 1911A1 and found the recoil spring kinked.

There are a boatload of 1911 "fixes" for problems that never existed until somebody a-hem "invented" them.

Beavertail hi rise grip safety. You will notice that the gun sits as low in the hand with a WWII era grip safety and a flanged hammer as it does with a Wilson beavretail and a Commander hammer.

Extended thumb safety, extended slide stop. Worls well in competition. For a carry gun or truck gun an extended safety is nothing more than an elongated handle to snag something and pull the safety off. And for the uninitiated (Like a certain Norfolk VA police officer that thought my extended thumb safety looked better "parked" down there with the extended magazine release with a live round in the chamber) I had to tell him several times there was a round in the chamber and he just took the safety OFF, he looked at me like Who The **** are YOU to instruct me on a firearm? And I told him "Officer, you are fixing to cause a negligent discharge PLEASE put the safety back on!" He looked at his partner and clicked the safety back where it was. These guys are much better off with the as-issued thumb safety and slide stop. At least the ones lucky enough or old enough to be trained on the 1911.

Extended mag well and mags with bumpers on them. Makes reloading faster and easier. a must have on a competition gun, and possible that it could save valuable time in a shoot or be shot situation outside of competition.

I could fill the rest of this page up with descriptions of add-ons for a 1911 but the bottom line is it worked PERFECTLY FINE for millions of our boys in uniform for many generations just like it was issued. I have owned and I will admit to my share of parts swapping the latest brilliantly engineered piece of kit onto my 1911s, but now I am almost back to exactly where mine would have been issued in WWII and it's flawless.

One thing you cannot do with a guide rod is cock and load the pistol with one hand using the end of the slide to push against a table edge,

[VariableRecall]

I could fill the rest of this page up with descriptions of add-ons for a 1911 but the bottom line is it worked PERFECTLY FINE for millions of our boys in uniform for many generations just like it was issued. I have owned and I will admit to my share of parts swapping the latest brilliantly engineered piece of kit onto my 1911s, but now I am almost back to exactly where mine would have been issued in WWII and it's flawless.

One thing you cannot do with a guide rod is cock and load the pistol with one hand using the end of the slide to push against a table edge,

I'd have to say it's certainly a fantastic piece. I don't see the guide rod as being any sort of a weak point. other than a single double feed (probably caused by an aftermarket magazine issue) the thing has ran flawlessly.

[country gent]

Several issues with the full length guide rods. some change the disassembly procedure slightly. some have a small angled boss to help push the barrel up tighter in the lugs they do make a pistol seem smother but also make it harder to do one hand drills. They may increase spring life some. My 3' kimber 1911 requires a accuratly bent paper clip to lock spring for disassembly.

[GasGuzzler]

One thing you cannot do with a guide rod is cock and load the pistol with one hand using the end of the slide to push against a table edge,

Or a rock, your back bumper on your truck, your boot heel, or another solid object. You made the point I made above better than me and now I'm making the point even better...

[nicholst55]

That's basically a GI 45 model 1911A1, it never needed a full length guide rod in 73 years of military service with MILLIONS of 1911A1 pistols. Let me ask the entirety of our members here, a few of which have been around since before Viet Nam, if anyone has ever pulled apart a 1911A1 and found the recoil spring kinked.



Actually, yes, I have and more than once. It was kinked by the operator when he reassembled the pistol. I am rather neutral towards FLGRs. I would not want one on a pistol that I carried on a daily basis, because I might not be able to disassemble it without tools in the unlikely event that the need arose. Same reason that I use slotted grip screws (as opposed to hex, torx, or whatever head screws). On a range toy, meh.

[Murphy]

I never noticed the full length guide rods coming about until the 1980's. To me, it was a competition gun add on to add just a tad more weight to the muzzle. ISPC match shooters all had them (faster recovery time between shots). Some of the full length guide rods were offered in tungsten. And yes, it does make the gun seem to cycle easier.

Simply stated, if the 1911 needed a full length guide rod? John Moses Browning would have put it on there to begin with.


Murphy

[DougGuy]

That's basically a GI 45 model 1911A1, it never needed a full length guide rod in 73 years of military service with MILLIONS of 1911A1 pistols. Let me ask the entirety of our members here, a few of which have been around since before Viet Nam, if anyone has ever pulled apart a 1911A1 and found the recoil spring kinked.



Actually, yes, I have and more than once. It was kinked by the operator when he reassembled the pistol. I am rather neutral towards FLGRs. I would not want one on a pistol that I carried on a daily basis, because I might not be able to disassemble it without tools in the unlikely event that the need arose. Same reason that I use slotted grip screws (as opposed to hex, torx, or whatever head screws). On a range toy, meh.

Ahh on operator reassembly. I see. My question was more angled at has anyone found a kinked recoil spring upon disassembly, a kink that might have happened when the gun was assembled (correctly) and running as designed.

I think one time on one of mine, that had a full length rod, I managed to coil bind it and it did cause one of the ends to poke out.

[StuBach]

I custom tuned a beat up Auto Ordinance 1911 several years ago and gave it all the “bells and whistles” cause I was somewhat new to gunsmith it at the time and this was a fun way to spend bonus checks from work when I was making them. SS Wilson FLGR replaced the standard original and gun locked up much tighter and cycled smoother after the trade out. That being said, I was doing a lot of work on the gun at the time so it wasn’t the only thing helping matters. Never seen the need to trade back and never had a reason to doubt it.

Ultimately, I think it ends up more an aesthetic thing than a function thing. If you like the way it looks with it (or want the extra weight for competition) than it’s worth doing. If your just asking is it necessary, the answer is now, don’t waste your money.

If your looking for weight in the front for competition than why not just add a compensator, my dads pin gun has a pretty decent size one and he’s been winning matches for years with it. Compensator doesn’t help much for the low pressure 45 but it sure adds the weight.

[samari46]

As issued 1943 Ithaca 1911A1 I left it as is except for installing a Colt 45 barrel. Original barrel is a High Standard which is correct for this pistol.
Semi custom Springfield armory ( not the gov't one) came with a tungsten full length guide rod and shot great so left that one alone. Frank

[Bazoo]

I don't see a need for a full length guide rod. The spring ain't going to kink. There is only a very short section that isn't in the plug or on the short guide rod. Personally I think a 1911 will digest more dirt and mud in A1 configuration. If combat conditions are a concern, keep it original.

If I rack the slide via off a table or whatever, I use the rear sight. Course if you got adjustable sights it'll break them.

[JimB..]

I have a FLGR in a couple 1911s and not in others. The benefits are not so great that I’d add them and the disadvantages are not so great that I’d remove them.

[JSnover]

There doesn't seem to be enough room inside the 1911 for the spring to kink (possible but not likely, IMO). I don't know where the FLGR idea came from, I just assumed someone worried about the spring deflecting far enough for the outside of the coils to wear on the inside of the slide or frame.

[Bigslug]

Full-length guide rods are the first thing I remove and throw away from any new gun that came with one.

A recoil spring is only going to get kinked through improper reassembly. If you think about how the parts sit when a stock GI gun is assembled, most of the spring is either contained in the front plug, or wrapped around the spring guide at the back. The middle is secured by the frame at the bottom and the barrel above, so what direction exactly is it going to kink in?

All they do is complicate disassembly and reassembly. On a super loosey-goosey worn out gun, there MAY be a slight accuracy enhancement, but you're likely to get more mileage out of looking for a snugger-fitting barrel bushing. Before you drink too much of the "it helps with accuracy" Kool Aid, note that Les Baer, makers of probably the most accurate match-tuned 1911's in existence, use the standard GI parts configuration.

[Dan Cash]

At present, there are 7 1911 pistols in my stable, none of which have a full length guide rod. All but two of them came with one but were quickly removed and tossed in the parts bin. The full length guide rod makes disassembly a pain and serves no demonstrated purpose when used with a gun having a conventional barrel. It is necessary on guns with no barrel bushing.

[KVO]

When I was at the USAMU the service pistol team guns were built with standard GI style guide rods, with the best guns capable of holding 1.5" at 50yd. In contrast the action shooting pistols all had full length guide rods as per the shooters' request. The consensus was that the FL guide rods felt smoother while cycling and improved target transition times. In the speed game any advantage real or imagined is worth it to those folks. Us mere mortals by and large aren't fast enough to tell the difference.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I probably have a dozen 1911-type pistols. Only two have full length guide rods. One came that way, and the other I installed for a reason now long forgotten. One is made to be just exactly the right length that with a little maneuvering the barrel bushing can be turned past it, and the pistol then disassembled as normal. It is solid, one piece. The second is actually made in two parts, with one half screwing into the other half. Both are a pain to disassemble/reassemble and I don't recommend them. I've never had a kinked recoil spring. I have replaced any recoil springs that seemed tired, and have a shock buffer in each pistol-- including the two with the one piece rods.

DG

[10-x]

Been shooting 1911’s for about 50 years, on the farm, on AMTU after Vietnam and have 10 assorted Colts, no need for full length guide rods. John Browning designed the perfect pistol and no full length rod, nuf sed.

[45DUDE]

I have a nice 1911 N.M. 38 special wad cutter pistol. I found installing a guide rod it would lock the slide back with a lower powder charge on the last shot.

[charlie b]

I've had both. Originally I recall the FLGR was primarily to add some extra weight to the pistol.

I have not fired mine back to back with and without so can't say it makes any difference at all. My current 1911's do not have them.

No, there is no reason for the recoil spring to ever kink when installed in the gun. I have seen kinked springs on GI pistols, but, they were all due to ham fisted GI's during disassembly and assembly (or being stepped on :) ).

[Greg S]

Added weight up front or more ing from a standard recoil spring to a flat wire spring ala glock.

[Hickok]

I hate full length guide rods. To my way of thinking, they are a "boutique part" for the 1911.

WWI, WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, and etc,...never was needed on the 1911,...essential only at the "run and gun" pistol matches and target range

When it comes time to tear down/disassemble for a cleaning, they really are a pain,......at least for me.

[cas]

I have 1911's with original stubbies, one piece and two piece full length. IMO the only reason to add a FLGR is if you want to be able to take the top end off quickly and often.

That may sound odd. I have a couple that I shoot a lot, especially the one I use for USPSA. I don't clean it often, but I "change the oil" (grease actually) every time I shoot it. Whip the slide/barrel/recoil assembly off in one piece, wipe the rails clean, apply new grease, put the top back on.

[NuJudge]

I sometimes will shoot competitions that have me shooting .22 rimfire and .45 acp. It helps if the .22 is a rimfire conversion on a 1911 that is otherwise in .45 acp. This means I only have one trigger pull. The conversion has a captive recoil spring. It helps if the 1911 also has a captive recoil spring, so I can change uppers quickly.

Other than this, I see no benefit from a captive spring on a 1911.

[Divil]

Both my Colt 5 inch Government 9mm 1911’s have the standard short guide rod and I see no reason to switch. Both are accurate and reliable. I don’t see any potential gains in switching unless your friend has an overwhelming need just to tinker.

[scattershot]

My vote is for the standard GI guide rod and cap, as God and John Browning intended.

[gnostic]

There's a reason every pistol designed in the last hundred years, or the ones I can think of, have a full length guide rod captive spring design. I notice my bone stock Detonic Combat Master came with full length guide rod and I really like the way my series 70 Gold Cup slide feels with a full length guide rod and shock buffer. I've never owned a 1911 that wasn't modified, sights, barrel bushing, slide tightened, trigger job etc...

[SweetMk]

I have replaced any recoil springs that seemed tired, and have a shock buffer in each pistol-- including the two with the one piece rods.

DG

So, if I want to remove the FLGR from my Series 80 Gold Cup ,, I might as well replace the spring while I am at it,,
How would I go about selecting the correct replacement spring?

and ,,

is the shock buffer needed ??

[charlie b]

If the spring is correct for the loads you shoot then the shock buffer is not needed. I use one on the wife's Light Commander (aluminum frame) cause I sometimes load hot rounds in it. Never used one in my steel 1911's.

Basically, if your pistol works the way it is don't change the spring.

[Petrol & Powder]

I've never purchased a full length guide rod to add to a 1911 but I have owned 1911's that came with a FLGR.
Can't say I would add a FLGR to a pistol that didn't have one. I don't see where it is needed, it makes disassembly more complicated and it just adds weight.
As for shooting? A guide rod may add a little mass to the front of the pistol if you desired that.

After reading this thread, up to this point, I can say the responses are far more in the "No guide rod" camp than the "Yes guide rod" camp.

[gnostic]

So, if I want to remove the FLGR from my Series 80 Gold Cup ,, I might as well replace the spring while I am at it,,
How would I go about selecting the correct replacement spring?

and ,,

is the shock buffer needed ??

The Gold Cup uses a 11lb. recoil spring with 185gr SW and 3.5gr of Bullseye....

[DougGuy]

So, if I want to remove the FLGR from my Series 80 Gold Cup ,, I might as well replace the spring while I am at it,,
How would I go about selecting the correct replacement spring?

and ,,

is the shock buffer needed ??

Ok first, the lower power load, lighter boolit = less energy to impart to the slide, so a weaker recoil spring is needed. Standard spring is 14lbs afaik.

Since the 1911 recoil impulse is dependent on the shooter's grip, then your grip factors into how well the slide operates. The tighter your grip, the more energy goes into the slide, the looser your grip, your forearms absorb some of the energy and the gun can actually fail to cycle if you limp wrist the 1911.


One of the best ways to select the proper recoil spring for a 1911 is by matching the spring to the load and you do this at the range, at the 7 yard distance, fire a double tap. When you can double tap and the second shot ends up within 1 1/2" or 2" of the first, you have the right spring for that load, AND your grip. You can try different springs and watch the second shot stray from the first, but the closer they are, the better it will work with THAT load and THAT spring.

If you shoot a lot I would use the shock buff at the range but remove it before using the gun for an EDC. Most times you won't have a problem with them if you keep new ones properly installed but I have seen the shock buff turn sideways and cause a failure to feed.

[35remington]

The recoil spring plug is a guide rod. Hence the reason it is not needed in a 1911. And as mentioned the unrestrained length of recoil spring in a 1911 is so short it cannot kink. Other designs may not confine the recoil spring as well as a 1911 does, and therefore a guide rod is present.

One fallacy in observation is to observe that since some other design has a guide rod, a 1911 is therefore “better” if it gets one to replace what was originally specified. What is missed is the designs are different and do not have the same requirements.

The integral guide rod/recoil spring in newer plastic pistols must have square ends or flanges to fit into the recess in the front of the slide and a small “shelf” at the bottom of the barrel lugs. The guide rod role is to facilitate assembly as a primary factor in these new designs. In a 1911 a guide rod has no role to play in getting the recoil spring to stay in place.

Why install what is clearly not needed?

[DHDeal]

I think the full length guide rod is a great upgrade for a 19.... Nah, I couldn't even finish my lie. On a 1911 I don't want one.

My 2011's wear them, but that's the way they came, are one piece, are not any trouble to disassemble, and are heavy. Different critter for a different game.

[VariableRecall]

I think that we will stick with the stock guide rod for the time being. The pistol as is hasn't caused any issues, so why modify it?

Plus, a parkerized finish and a silver colored guide rod would look quite off.

[Bazoo]

Springfield parkerized milspec comes with a stainless barrel and bushing. It don't look off to me. Course I like a stainless frame and black slide.

[wv109323]

It adds weight to the front of the gun, if you like weight. A problem it causes is that the spring wire can get caught between the spring cap and the rod. This can cause a malfunction and may not allow the slide its full travel forward.
I had a flgr and the clearance between the spring cap and rod was excessive.

[wgg]

I bought a SS Springfield 1911-A1 45acp. It has basic 3 dot sights, gi style guide rod and standard grip safety. I have been looking at changing out the sights, safety, trigger and a few upgrades. The person I bought it from said he had it about 5 years and never shot it. I stripped it down to the frame and cleaned and lubed it. I took it to the range today and it shot great. Other than the trigger pull I am thinking, just what is wrong with it as it is.

[cas]

John Browning designed the perfect pistol and no full length rod

Almost no one is shooting the pistol he designed. lol It's fun to point out to people who like that "argument", the half a dozen things (at least) on their gun that weren't in his design, but they conveniently overlook those. :)

[SweetMk]

Almost no one is shooting the pistol he designed. lol It's fun to point out to people who like that "argument", the half a dozen things (at least) on their gun that weren't in his design, but they conveniently overlook those. :)

Half dozen,,?? :shock: they are just beginners,,, LOL,, :bigsmyl2:

https://i.imgur.com/UP8KNnt.jpg

This one is still the way it left the Colt factory,, though,, :-o Does that count!?? :razz:

[gwpercle]

My experience has been with a GI Norinco and a Kimber Custom. Smoother to rack was the only advantage I could see or feel, both went bang just fine. My thoughts are put the money towards ammo.

Hitting Our Like Button... LIKE !
My sentiments also ... and if John Browning had thought one necessary ... he would have designed it with one .
Gary

[1006]

The 1911 was designed to support the spring on the outside of the coils-no FLGR needed. The Delta Elite needed a FLGR to support the double recoil spring that it uses.

I do not like a FLGR as an upgrade, because it is not an upgrade, just a change that is not needed if it was not there to allow the gun to function.

As a side note: almost all-I say “almost” because there may be one out there that I have not seen yet- FLGR’s are two piece units. Some are made to look like one piece, but are actually made of two pieces threaded together. They tend to come apart at the most unexpected and inconvenient of times.

[45DUDE]

I like that 45 SweetMk.

[cas]

Lets see... stainless steel, lowered ejection port, flat topped slide, full length guide rods, extended slide release, extended safety, extended multi piece mag releases, ambi safety, beaver tail grip safety, deactivated grip safety, all manner of hammer, two piece triggers, flat triggers, over sized bushings, mag wells, adjustable sights, fiber optic sights, dovetailed front sights, textured and checkered frames, forward slide serrations, allen and torx head screws, a cast frame, integral spring plunger tube, non wood grips, an Aftec extractor, undercut trigger guard, recoil buffers in a couple of them, ramped barrel, 8 and 9 round magazines (one's a 10mm) and whatever else I'm forgetting. None of them JMB approved. :)

https://photos.imageevent.com/cas6969/guns/websize/D222A5F4-8766-4CFD-A897-6E3D7BDD24A7.jpeg

Thank God my series 80 Officers ACP and Gold Cup with the Bomar rib isn't in the photo, the list would be twice as long. ;)

[DougGuy]

Almost no one is shooting the pistol he designed. lol It's fun to point out to people who like that "argument", the half a dozen things (at least) on their gun that weren't in his design, but they conveniently overlook those. :)

Shop gun:

274865

Last Commander I built:

274867

No full length guide rods.

[GhostHawk]

I know it is Heresy, but full length guide rod is not the be all end all. To me a pinned barrel that DOES NOT MOVE is capable of much more accuracy.

Nomex suit on, flame away. I'll let you return to your earlier conversation.

[tazman]

I just looked at the Les Baer site. He has all the special goodies listed that are standard on his pistols. Those are long lists. I didn't see any of them that included a full length guide rod.
The long guide rod is available but doesn't seem to be included by default in his pistols.

[VariableRecall]

I know it is Heresy, but full length guide rod is not the be all end all. To me a pinned barrel that DOES NOT MOVE is capable of much more accuracy.

Nomex suit on, flame away. I'll let you return to your earlier conversation.

So, should I scoff to my brother that my S&W Model 10-5 (manf. 1969 with a pinned barrel) is more mechanically accurate despite the fact that he has 1 more inch of barrel on me?

[Prairie Cowboy]

I owned four 1911A1 pistols over the years. None came with or needed a guide rod.

I also agree that most of the add-ons for 1911A1 pistols are not and never were needed.

All that really ever appealed to me were better defined fixed sights and a Commander-style burr hammer.

[charlie b]

Not 'needed' maybe, but, the beavertail safety sure made my hand happier after shooting couple hundred rounds a day. Didn't have any red marks on the web of my hand anymore :)

[bluelund79]

To answer the OP question, it’s not needed. Hope he enjoys his 1911, they are the one handgun that I keep going back to, and carry daily more than any other platform.

[downzero]

All of mine have full length guide rods. I'm not sure I'd put one in if they didn't, but I also don't believe they cause problems as some suggest.

[1006]

So, should I scoff to my brother that my S&W Model 10-5 (manf. 1969 with a pinned barrel) is more mechanically accurate despite the fact that he has 1 more inch of barrel on me?

Yes, the 38, unless it is a dud, is more accurate.

[BD]

Just a note: I believe that the standard 1911 spring weight has always been 16 lb