Pre-owned powder

[Mk42gunner]

Had a rather rude awakening today. The Winchester 231 that I bought at an estate sale a few years ago wasn't 231. It has big flakes, don't know what it is but I am not shooting any more of it.

Be very careful of opened cans of powder that you come across.

Saving a few dollars on used dies is one thing, powder is another.

Robert

[Sweetpea]

Be glad you noticed it, and it wasn't a new powder for you.

If I get an open jug of powder, there are only about 2 people I would trust it from.

The rest is fertilizer.

[Joe504]

The older powder is probably worth more as empty cans on Ebay, than as powder, lol.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[earlmck]

I've burned a fair amount of garage or estate sale powder over the years -- you just take it a little cautiously and use a strong action gun and a chronograph and you pretty quick can tell if you have the powder that the label says. And if not and you have enough to be worthwhile, the same process with a mystery powder will pretty quick get it identified. For example your big flakes are not going to be any medium or slow burning rifle powder -- they'll be pistol powder. If one of the "dots" there will be the occasional colored flake, so if your powder is the slowest flake powder out there (blue dot) you'll have blue flakes. If no colored flakes it is probably Unique or Bullseye. Assume Bullseye, load up a starter load and fire in a Ruger (indestructible) revolver and the chronograph will tell you if it is Bullseye or Unique. No big deal.

Ball powders are trickier because you don't have much for visual ID characteristics. But you can identify it if you put your mind to it. Back before God invented affordable chronographs the "pour it out" advice was justified but not anymore.

[Peregrine]

Good post earlmck, but give yourself some credit, you're working off quite a bit of knowledge that many don't have.

If someone has the ability to, and trusts themself to identify mystery powder than you'll never hear them asking what to do on a forum. In the case that they do, the easiest and safest thing for all involved is just to tell them to dump it.

[Peregrine]

On the other hand, mk42gunner, when you said you're not shooting "anymore" of it, how much have you shot already?

[JM7.7x58]

It sounds like you have some type of shotgun/Pistol flake powder. It could be 700x, or Herco, or unique, or another one of these types of powders. Just use it up in rifle plinking loads. I’ve used bullseye in this type of load and had good results. I’d try 7 grains behind a 150 plain base in my 30-06.

[Bent Ramrod]

A copy of Propellant Profiles and a study of the Powder chapter in Sharpe’s Complete Guide to Handloading, supplemented by knowledge of the appearance of the new powders I’ve used previously have always been sufficient background when I’ve bought used powders and partial cans at gun shows and estate sales.

I do work up loads with the “new” purchases if I’m at all unsure, comparing them with previous data.

About the only thing I won’t bother with is unknown powders in relabeled containers. The price would have to be a giveaway before I’d be interested.

[Three44s]

There is no wrong answer about what to do with opened powder containers as long as an abundance of caution is used.

The OPs case where a flake powder is in place of 231 and the advice to use smaller doses in a large rifle case behind a cast boolit is sound for some handloaders

Fertilizing the lawn with opened cans is sound advice for many of us yas well.

One thing that is more difficult to tell is if some dunce dumped one powder in on top of another.

I was just gifted 5, 1# unopened cans of new school Unique. That’s an easy one.

The same neighbor also gave me 5 more one pounders of IMR 4198. Three are sealed, no problem but two are opened and barely used.

With extruded powder it’s pretty distinctive in shape and size of kernels but a similar powder could have been mixed in advertantly. The key word here is similar.

The powder came from a third person to my neighbor, then to me.

I am pondering that open 4198 but I am no where near fertilizing with it and larger case low pressure loads to start with is winning out over greener grass.



Three44s

[Burnt Fingers]

Had a rather rude awakening today. The Winchester 231 that I bought at an estate sale a few years ago wasn't 231. It has big flakes, don't know what it is but I am not shooting any more of it.

Be very careful of opened cans of powder that you come across.

Saving a few dollars on used dies is one thing, powder is another.

Robert

Any MORE of it???? You mean you have been shooting it?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I've bought more than my share of open cans of powder at Gun Shows and/or an Auction. It has to be priced, where I won't be sad if I have to dump it. I'm lucky as I have a large selection of powder in my magazine, to do a visual comparison...there is also some images to be found on the interwebs, but having the same powder in hand is much better than looking at a computer screen. I save previously used powder containers, and my common practice with a purchased open container, is to pour it out into a bowl for complete inspection, then repackage into a plastic powder container, as they are usually the vintage can's that I buy are metal or metal/paperboard...I prefer to store in plastic...properly relabeled obviously.
Also, if I am not 100% sure it's the same, I dump it.

[memtb]

I guess this means that no one is interested in the 90+ pounds of mil-surplus 50 BMG powder that I was thinking about selling! :-D memtb

[gbrown]

I posted on another thread about 3/4 of an 8# jug of Scot 1250 I got at an estate sale a few years ago. Before doing anything, I researched it and got reloading data from a member here. I read several descriptions of its physical appearance, burn rate, etc. It all seemed to fit so I loaded light loads of 9mm and went to the range. It performed to the data. I then went to moderate loads, same thing. Went to my usual load range, about 80% max. All chronographed and seemed, recoil wise, right where they were supposed to be. I've loaded it in a variety of pistol caliber and all fit the data. You just gotta be careful and go slow. Research it all, start small. The pistol I used in 9mm was a Rock Island 1911, a solid pistol.

[Mk42gunner]

On the other hand, mk42gunner, when you said you're not shooting "anymore" of it, how much have you shot already?


Any MORE of it???? You mean you have been shooting it?

Let me preface this by saying that I hadn't loaded any 231 for several years.

I recently came to be the new custodian of both a Colt Officer's Model Match and a S&W K-38 Model 14-4, so I was planning of loading some .38 Special wadcutters. I ran into problems with my old RCBS epander die not expanding the cases deeply enough for the WC Boolits. Luckily I only loaded 12 rounds, and only shot six.

During the course of waiting for the new M-die, I got to thinking about how the powder looked. And realized that something wasn't right.

To me, it looks like some Herco got dumped into the five pound can of 231. Not trusting my 40+ year old memory as to what Herco looks like, plus if it is a mixture, I am not going to use it for the planned handgun loads.

I may save it for testing for very light boolit loads in CF rifles, but I will label it as unknown powder at the very least.

Robert

[Shawlerbrook]

No pre-owned gun powder for me. One of the few things I won’t purchase second hand.

[Hick]

I've burned a fair amount of garage or estate sale powder over the years -- you just take it a little cautiously and use a strong action gun and a chronograph and you pretty quick can tell if you have the powder that the label says. And if not and you have enough to be worthwhile, the same process with a mystery powder will pretty quick get it identified. For example your big flakes are not going to be any medium or slow burning rifle powder -- they'll be pistol powder. If one of the "dots" there will be the occasional colored flake, so if your powder is the slowest flake powder out there (blue dot) you'll have blue flakes. If no colored flakes it is probably Unique or Bullseye. Assume Bullseye, load up a starter load and fire in a Ruger (indestructible) revolver and the chronograph will tell you if it is Bullseye or Unique. No big deal.

Ball powders are trickier because you don't have much for visual ID characteristics. But you can identify it if you put your mind to it. Back before God invented affordable chronographs the "pour it out" advice was justified but not anymore.

In addition, you can look at the National Center for Forensic Science Powder database, which has pictures of different powders along with measurements of particle size and shape. This makes it possible for you to get list of likely candidates. Then you look up loading data for the fastest and slowest on the list and start low. I've done this before. As said above-- you have to be cautious. The national database is here: https://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/search.php?s_reference=&s_content_source=&s_source_reference=&s_product_use=&s_distributor=&s_product_name=&s_date_obtained=&s_lot_number=&s_date_analyzed=&s_manufacturer=&s_date_manufactured=&s_notes=&s_shape_id=&s_color_id=&s_luster_id=&s_dia_min=&s_dia_max=&s_dia_avg=&s_dia_tol=&s_length_min=&s_length_max=&s_len_avg=&s_len_tol=&display_image=1&image_size=400

[Alstep]

Is there any lab that will analyze an unknown sample of powder???

[Burnt Fingers]

Is there any lab that will analyze an unknown sample of powder???

I'm sure you could find one. But you would need a LOT of powder to make it worthwhile.

[BrutalAB]

I know this topic comes up often. But i have my own related question that ive not seen discussed before...

How do you know a can has not been opened before? Every can ive ever used, the plastic paper seal will readhere and make a new seal when closed and left for some time. And feels pretty much exactly like an unopened can when i peel it open again.

[JM7.7x58]

I’ve got some older tins of Norma powder. They have a metal seal underneath the screw on cap. It’s pretty obvious which cans have been opened and which are virgin. Similar with old Hogdon‘s tin/cardboard cans you can tell if the metal stopper has been pried off.

IMR and Winchester screw caps it’s anyone’s guess.

JM

[Alstep]

I'm sure you could find one. But you would need a LOT of powder to make it worthwhile.


A friend cleaned out an old house and found a 30# drum almost full of powder that he gave me. Drum is marked "Hercules" with some code numbers. Called Hercules Alliant and they had no clue. Also called Hodgen, thinking it was surplus, and they had no clue either. Asked them about testing a sample, they don't do that. It's a stick powder that looks like IMR4895. The amount would make it worthwhile testing if only I knew where to send a sample.
Sure hate to fertilize the tomato patch with it.

[kerplode]

To me, it looks like some Herco got dumped into the five pound can of 231. Not trusting my 40+ year old memory as to what Herco looks like, plus if it is a mixture, I am not going to use it for the planned handgun loads.

I may save it for testing for very light boolit loads in CF rifles, but I will label it as unknown powder at the very least.

Or, perhaps instead of screwing around and risking your fingers and eyes on some janky BS, you should just pour it on your lawn, thank your guardian angel that you didn't already blow yourself up, and swear off buying open power containers in the future...

I don't understand the mindset of some of y'all here regarding obviously questionable power. I will NEVER use powder of unknown origin, unknown composition, or questionable quality. My vision is too important to risk on $30 of powder. Even if it cost 10x per pound, I would still pour it on the ground if I didn't knew what it was, where it came from, or if it was deteriorating.


I know this topic comes up often. But i have my own related question that ive not seen discussed before...

How do you know a can has not been opened before? Every can ive ever used, the plastic paper seal will readhere and make a new seal when closed and left for some time. And feels pretty much exactly like an unopened can when i peel it open again.

When I open a pound, I peel those seals off and throw them in the trash. I'd imagine most others do the same...

[TyGuy]

I always put the seal back in place in hopes that it will keep the powder happy longer. That said, I have a designated area for opened powders and once there they stay until used entirely. No mistaking what is open and what is new.

What happens to them after I’m gone is someone else’s gamble. Hopefully I will have shot it all up myself before that day!

[lightman]

I am very leary about using unknown powder. I have been gifted open powder from friends that I trust. I have a couple of scientific bowels, I think they are called Petri Dishes, that I will place side by side to compare with powder that I have. Thats not fool proof but with the visual comparison and an existing label from a trusted friend I will use it. If the source in unknown to me, forget it!

On another note. I mark the purchase date on the powder that I buy and I put an "O" on the cap of the can when I open them.

[Conditor22]

I have bought a bit of new powder (from LGS) where the seal wasn't intact.

comparing powder, compare the smell also.

SMOKELESS POWDERS DATABASE http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/search.php (type in the powder name next to "Product Name" then scroll down
Has pictures, dimensions, different "generations/formulas for the powder, and more:

IE.
0082 Hodgdon Titegroup

SRN 0082
Distributor Hodgdon
Product Name Titegroup
Shape irregular flattened ball
avg. Diameter 1.00 mm
avg. Length/thickness
List of components Nitroglycerin
Diphenylamine
Dibutyl phthalate
Ethyl centralite
2-nitrodiphenylamine

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Yesterday, while in the reloading room cleaning up some 45-70 dies, I had four live cartridges in the box of 45-70 brass that I've been accumulating. one looked like a factory round with a heavy J-word (the brass case HS marking was "Levergun"). Two looked like reloads with a lightweight J-words. The last cartridge looked real old, worn nickel plated brass with a heavy cast bullet, primer looked original.

I pulled the bullets to reuse the cases. The real old one had Caked up powder that was very black, looked like it was BP...so I figured I'd investigate it. The factory round with heavy J-word had a golden granular powder, that was weird, never seen that before, only thing I could think of was that it looked like ground up Cordite? The other two had donut shaped powder, which I figured could be Trail Boss, but it was a real low charge.

I brought the powder outside, and poured lines on a board, to light it up, one at a time, of course.
The Black colored Caked up powder, burnt just like BP, smelled like it too, and sent up a Big white smoke plume.
The Golden granules burnt just like a slow burning extruded rifle powder.
BUT, the weird thing is the donut shaped powder also burnt like slow burning extruded rifle powder, so I suspect it isn't Trailboss, I didn't take the time to do a visual comparison to Trailboss, and now all the pulled powder is burnt up. Is there another donut shaped powder, that is on the slow end of the burn rate chart?

[Bent Ramrod]

Earl Naramore’s Principles and Practice of Reloading Ammunition has an extensive section on the working up of charges with unknown powders.

This was published in 1954, and no doubt was compiled from notes made during and after WWII, when a given canister powder was either not available, or available only as poorly-characterized salvage from broken-down surplus ammunition. Being able to work up charges in the absence of a ballistics lab complete with a combustion bomb and pressure recording equipment was a valuable handloading-related skill back then. Perhaps, in these days of plentiful quantities and wide selections of well-characterized powders filling the dealer’s shelves, it isn’t so important anymore. Nevertheless, I continue to work to hone the ability, just in case the present bountiful supplies, against all reason, somehow dry up. But how could that happen in America?

I could lavish fertilizer and attention on plants and they’d still die. Maybe when the depleted shelves at the grocery stores are completely empty, my lack of talent in this area will be a serious liability. In the meantime, I’ll continue to use powder as powder, and be glad the used market is more supply than demand.

[kerplode]

Well, best of luck to you then. I enjoy my sight and have plenty of better things to do than mess around with random unknown powder. But you hone away. Just don’t sit next to me at the range.

[dverna]

The only open containers of powder I have ever bought came from a older gentlemen at the Trap club who was getting out of reloading.

I trusted him because he was no fool. He had worked for Dodge and worked with Dale Earnhardt on the race circuit. When I went over to his home he showed me the M-29 S&W Dale had given him...what a beautiful gun. I still have the old Rock Chucker he sold me. Tried buying the M-29 but it was one of those guns a man never sells.

Anyway, I would never buy open cans/jugs from a gun show or garage sale. If I know the person, I can judge.

[BrutalAB]

I always put the seal back in place in hopes that it will keep the powder happy longer.

This is exactly my thoughts as well.

[memtb]

A friend cleaned out an old house and found a 30# drum almost full of powder that he gave me. Drum is marked "Hercules" with some code numbers. Called Hercules Alliant and they had no clue. Also called Hodgen, thinking it was surplus, and they had no clue either. Asked them about testing a sample, they don't do that. It's a stick powder that looks like IMR4895. The amount would make it worthwhile testing if only I knew where to send a sample.
Sure hate to fertilize the tomato patch with it.


Many years ago, I sent a sample of powder to Accurate Arms, to test for an appropriate burn rate they were helpful. But, that was 30 years ago....lotsa water under the bridge since then! memtb