My Gibbs is dead

[Saltner]

Unfortunately my Gibbs is dead, the barrel didn't last long. [smilie=b:
I suspect the steel of these barrels is poor.
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A short load of a video that I made with the borescope, it is also evident that the tool to finish the lands has climbed and crested a step.

[Nobade]

As in Pedersoli Gibbs? That's not a very good looking barrel for a very expensive rifle. What has caused all the rust?

[godzilla]

Long Live the Gibbs!

[missionary5155]

Boil the barrel 30 minutes. Then scrub it out with a bronze brush. Then go shoot it.

[Tatume]

Boil the barrel 30 minutes. Then scrub it out with a bronze brush. Then go shoot it.

Exactly. The proof is in the pudding.

[Toymaker]

Send it to me. I'll name it Lazarus.

[Randy Bohannon]

The early Pedersoli Gibbs 45 cal rifle was made with some of the best barrel steel ever created by Mauser. It is an expensive material to make and Pedersoli used it on their top tier rifles,nothing wrong with Pedersoli barrel steel. As others have pointed out it looks to need a good cleaning.

[charlie b]

It does look like those are deposits on the steel, not pits. How many rounds have been fired and what load?

I'd be tempted to show it to Pedersoli and see what they say.

[toot]

not so this time!!

[toot]

long live the GIBBS, not this time

[Tatume]

not so this time!!


long live the GIBBS, not this time

?????

[freakonaleash]

Looks like you have been shooting pyrodex in it.

[swheeler]

Looks like you have been shooting pyrodex in it.

Maybe or didn't give it a good enough cleaning and oiling. I'll bet there are pits under those clumps of rust.

[dondiego]

Bore scopes ruin many barrels.

[Tatume]

Bore scopes ruin many barrels.

Agree. Clean it and shoot it and ignore the bore scope.

[waksupi]

Some years ago, several companies got bad steel for their barrels. It was German steel, and it didn't match the US specs. I suspect foreign manufacturers were getting the same steel, and didn't do any testing on it. I condemned two separate batches of barrels that had used that steel, making me extremely unpopular with the companies involved.

[Caswell Ranch]

Is the following link yours from 2015 ?
https://blog.davide-pedersoli.com/developing-load-for-45-cal-pedersoli-gibbs-rifle/

I've had a few Pedersoli rifles show up with dirty and lightly rusted barrels from sitting at distributors for a few years, all but one cleaned up well. In your blog at Pedersoli you note citronella candles, margarine and other things used for lube is it possible some of, or something in what was used may have added to the corrosiveness of powder residue .

[jonp]

You didn't use BP of some type and then not clean it thoroughly , did you? Ballistol is not made far from you.
Margarine as lube? Never heard that one before but I'm pretty traditional I guess. People can get worked up over some stuff shown by a borescope that won't affect the shooting. As missionary5155 said, boil it, scrub it and shoot it before getting too down on it and from now on clean and lube that thing.

[Saltner]

I was sure to create a storm in the forum.
Unfortunately I'm not the only one to have these problems, years ago the manufacturer changed the type of steel for the manufacture of its barrels and it is no longer as good as it once was.
Even the broaching process for the lands is not the best, rotomammeling would be much better.
However I always cleaned the Gibbs as soon as I got home, with boiling water and soap, dried and lubricated.
Other friends say it's erosion from the heavy charges I use (100 grains 1 / 2FG), with patched bullets, the metal undergoes a thermal shock and reboils are created.
Once I was shooting the GG with 60/65 gn of FFG and it was very good, then there was a decline in performance, so I started with the PP.
Hear hear, so far I have burned 12 kg of black powder which corresponds to 26.5 your pounds, maybe that's why it came to an end.

[Saltner]

You didn't use BP of some type and then not clean it thoroughly , did you? Ballistol is not made far from you.
Margarine as lube? Never heard that one before but I'm pretty traditional I guess. People can get worked up over some stuff shown by a borescope that won't affect the shooting. As missionary5155 said, boil it, scrub it and shoot it before getting too down on it and from now on clean and lube that thing.


Vegetable margarine would be your Crisco and is used a lot in muzzleloading [smilie=s:

[oldracer]

I am curious as to where the pictures were taken inside the barrel? On the one I have there is some erosion in the barrel at where the top of the powder charge would be at 40 grains of powder. Since I use 80 grains I am past that and found the original owner shot short range muzzle loading matches only out to 50 yards so that charge would work. I also found when I talked with him he was a smokeless long range shooter and cleaned this rifle like he did his 308s and 6mm guns which was not real good. He won all the matches he entered and got tired of the black powder shooting and moved to 3 gun competition for more of a challenge. Try shooting some patched round balls and check what the patches look like, if all torn then there is a problem otherwise it shouldn't matter.
John

[Saltner]

https://youtu.be/Zs37cfmRMUc

[Caswell Ranch]

Vegetable margarine would be your Crisco and is used a lot in muzzleloading [smilie=s:

I'm sure others will make more comments on this, I don't see Crisco and Margarine to be the same and can't help but wonder if the use of the this type of substance as a lube 5 years ago set the stage for this problem. I have a Pedersoli RM Hawken .54 cal that has shot around 3,500 shots both patched ball and Minie with loads of 60 through 110 grains of Goex 3F, shoots better now than it did new, bore is crisp to the eye with a flashlight, I would not want to bore scope it for fear that it may look like yours and no longer shoot well ;)

[Caswell Ranch]

https://youtu.be/Zs37cfmRMUc

Looks a lot like lead build up in some areas, have you cleaned with a lead remover cloth, fine steel wool, lead solvent. If lead smudges trap residue, rust pitting is shortly behind. Bore can also look clean as the lead polishes to look like a clean/clear barrel.
On bare bullet I use a little tin in the mix(bullet will still obturate) , or paper patch.

[swheeler]

Yah that looks used up to me, there is atleast one land that was messed up from the rifling process, new rifle or new barrel :-(

[Tatume]

I don't see Crisco and Margarine to be the same and can't help but wonder if the use of the this type of substance as a lube 5 years ago set the stage for this problem.

Different countries have different names for things. In England they put "sauce" (ketchup) on french fries (chips). So if someone in Italy tells me that they call Crisco "margarine" I'm not surprised.

[Saltner]

It can not be dirty with lead, I have been using PP for a long time.
There is not only a land with the step, they are all climbed over the tool.
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ACCIDENTI CHE SFORTUNA

[Caswell Ranch]

It can not be dirty with lead, I have been using PP for a long time.
There is not only a land with the step, they are all climbed over the tool.
ACCIDENTI CHE SFORTUNA

O.K. I can see barrel cut problem but why did this not show itself 5 years ago if this is the same rifle referenced in the 5 year old blog. Yes it is bad luck.

[jonp]

Vegetable margarine would be your Crisco and is used a lot in muzzleloading [smilie=s:

Oh, hadn't thought of that. I guess? :-P

[Caswell Ranch]

Different countries have different names for things. In England they put "sauce" (ketchup) on french fries (chips). So if someone in Italy tells me that they call Crisco "margarine" I'm not surprised.

I made my reply based on the statement below from the article,
Six shots with pure lead bullet 535 grains, lubed with 30% bees wax and 70% margarine butter, 60 grains of Swiss powder 2F, between the powder and the bullet a cardboard wad obtained from a beer coaster.

[jonp]

It can not be dirty with lead, I have been using PP for a long time.
There is not only a land with the step, they are all climbed over the tool.
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ACCIDENTI CHE SFORTUNA

Yeah, that don't look good but that is not the cause of the rust/fouling stuff I think. How has it shot to this point?

[Tatume]

I made my reply based on the statement below from the article,
Six shots with pure lead bullet 535 grains, lubed with 30% bees wax and 70% margarine butter, 60 grains of Swiss powder 2F, between the powder and the bullet a cardboard wad obtained from a beer coaster.

Being from an Italian family, I say Saltner's English is remarkably good. I also appreciate that he explained a term that was causing confusion.

[Caswell Ranch]

Yeah, that don't look good but that is not the cause of the rust/fouling stuff I think. How has it shot to this point?

The post below is on this forum and looks like his gun was shooting well, also why I made comments I did above.

Congratulations, you'll have fun with that muzzleloader.
Here is a report on my experiences that you will still find in the forum.
https://blog.davide-pedersoli.com/de...i-gibbs-rifle/
Unfortunately my Gibbs is dead, the barrel didn't last long, I suspect the steel of these barrels is poor.

[cas]

And THAT'S why I won't buy a bore scope. All my rifles are fine! :D

[charlie b]

26lb of powder. 100gn per shot. 1,820 shots. I don't think it looks that bad. The machining 'problems' were there when new and it shot well for a long time.

I have no experience with shooting that many paper patched bullets. But, paper is abrasive, so not sure if it is part of the problem.

I'd still contact Pedersoli and see what they say.

[Teddy (punchie)]

First I'm fan of olive oil. After using different oils for cooking I use olive for most of my cooking. Now that the girls have and do help I use it on most of my sporting goods. It a food grade oil, safer for them to touch. I would heat it in an oven oil it and clean it with Steel Wool around a brass bore brush. Look at it again with your bore scope.

I know it took many many hours to clean one rifle, I clean for a buddy.

Something I thinking about lapping out a barrel. I'm working on way to do this to a 30 cal rifle. I'm thinking of casting a long bore casting and using valve grinding compound to impregnate the (of what would groves of the barrel) high parts of the casting with the compound and running it back and forth. Hoping to get the 308-309 to the 311 or 312 and reload the ammo see if I can tighten up the groups. This barrel is as rough one.

[indian joe]

Vegetable margarine would be your Crisco and is used a lot in muzzleloading [smilie=s:

Nope - table margarine has got salt in it.

I would get at that barrel with a brass brush tight wrapped with steel wool - brasso at the least - maybe car cutting polish - some kind of light abrasive (valve grinding paste too much I reckon) - then finish it off with jewellers rouge - when you have it shaped up you will feel the difference in the way the brush travels in the bore - spend a couple hours on it then clean properly and go shoot.

[oldracer]

I would suggest several things. First buy some of what we call here in America "Chore Boys" a copper assembled kitchen scrubber and also buy some "Kroil" and use the scrubber to throughly scrub the barrel until patches that come out have NO discoloration on them. Take a look inside to see if anything is different. Then get several pure lead bullets, drill and tap the base for a cleaning rod. Put some Cloverleaf or similar valve lapping compound in the barrel, force the bullet in then attach the rod. Lap the barrel full length adding additional compound as necessary. Then throughly clean the barrel with Kroil as it dissolves the lapping compound making sure to get the patent breech cleaned out and also the fire channel.

Or you can just call Pedersoli and see if they will swap the barrel?
John

[Caswell Ranch]

I think he may be out of luck on a barrel swap, it is three/four (3/4) years past the warranty (I think they have a 2 year warranty).

[Saltner]

Nope - table margarine has got salt in it.
Normally margarine contains salt, but I found the one without! The metal of the barrel does not get along well with the salt :lol:

[Saltner]

Being from an Italian family, I say Saltner's English is remarkably good. I also appreciate that he explained a term that was causing confusion.

I wish I could speak and write English like that. Something I understand, but I rely on the Google translator :bigsmyl2:

[Saltner]

O.K. I can see barrel cut problem but why did this not show itself 5 years ago if this is the same rifle referenced in the 5 year old blog. Yes it is bad luck.

Simply because I had not yet purchased the borescope :oops:

[cas]

I would lap it (either by hand or fire lapping) then try thicker paper.

I've seen rifles shoot pretty well with pits so big, if you saw them on the road you'd avoid them with your car. ;)

[skeettx]

Hello All

Saltner, you live in Italy,
Pedersoli is in Gardone, Italy
Can you not get them to replace the barrel?

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/guns-for-sale-pedersoli.asp

Happy New Year

Mike

[dondiego]

Many on this Forum claim that boiling water can cause flash rust. Might want to eliminate the boiling water during the cleaning process. Use water right from the tap.

[Saltner]

Hello All

Saltner, you live in Italy,
Pedersoli is in Gardone, Italy
Can you not get them to replace the barrel?

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/guns-for-sale-pedersoli.asp

Happy New Year

Mike

I've already talked to Pedersoli and he told me to go to the factory to see what to do.
But I already know that you will want to replace me and rightly paying.
But I don't know if I will, I wouldn't want to have the same problems in a few years.
Maybe I change brands or replace the barrel by a craftsman who uses excellent barrels.

[charlie b]

If it is not too inconvenient I would go to Pedersoli and see what they say. If they want you to pay for a new barrel, then you can say "no thanks" and go get a custom barrel made to fit.

I assume it does not shoot well anymore?

[oldracer]

If it were me and I lived in Italy where the gun was made I would take several days to visit the factory and have them look at the barrel and discuss costs and such things and work out a deal to get a new barrel. I would also ask to see inside the new barrel before it is installed and even ask to watch the barrel replacement. Since the barrel is probably the most important part of any muzzle loader I imagine they would agree. I would also get their instructions on shooting and cleaning as I know I got a copy with the one I got even though it was used.

One thing that surprised me was when shooting their 520 grain grease groove bullet the instructions said to cast in pure lead, insure the base was perfect and lightly seat the bullet directly on the powder! So when I shoot their bullet I do not use a wad but with the heavier 540 grain bullet or my 560 grain paper patch I use a .060 fiber wad. Good luck.
John

[Win94ae]

My muzzleloader I'm sure looks a lot like that, I'm hunting with it tomorrow.

[freakonaleash]

I have seen barrels far worse than that shoot very well.

[Win94ae]

I have seen barrels far worse than that shoot very well.
Indeed!
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That is my US Model of 1917 30-06, shoots 1MOA regularly.

[fgd135]

I wish I could visit the Pedersoli factory! But I would have to leave my credit cards at the hotel.

[arcticap]

I wish I could visit the Pedersoli factory! But I would have to leave my credit cards at the hotel.

There's 3 factory tour videos on youtube that can be found by entering- pedersoli factory tour -into the youtube search box.

[doulos]

Been shooting muzzleloaders a very long time. probably 10lbs of powder a year Boiling hot water does cause flash rust. It does not clean fouling better IMO. Room temp water is fine. The avoidance also of petroleum products for rust preventatives are a recipe for rust. If you dont want the heavy tar from it mixing with black powder. Clean it with denatured alcohol before going shooting.
All the barrel seasoning and natural product hoopla is just that...hoopla. I know many have used nothing but and had no problems. But many people have ruined their guns with "natural" stuff. These barrels dont need seasoning.
Ballistol is a good product. Alot of uses but a master of none. Especially long term storage. It does not displace moisture. It mixes with it! Any corrosion test Ive ever seen it doesent do well. But Ive used many bottles of it. And still like it as a cleaner.
A builder in Tenn of flintlocks Tip Curtis told me he cleans the barrel with water , Dries it and then wipes it out with Hoppes 9. And hes built a few thousand guns. I just clean with water wipe it out good. Then flush with a water discplacing oil like Wd 40. Then a rust prevenative.
For a barrel Like Saltner. I would go the Kroil route that someone explained. Soak the bore in Kroil. Leave it for a while. I would then try some bore paste like JB on a very tight jag and see what happens. Saltner that barrel might be Ok
Ok Im ready to be pounded now for not liking "natural products and Ballistol for rust protection. Be easy on me fellas

[cas]

A builder in Tenn of flintlocks Tip Curtis... And hes built a few thousand guns.

Yet but it's not like he kept them. ;)

[Woodnbow]

Been shooting muzzleloaders a very long time. probably 10lbs of powder a year Boiling hot water does cause flash rust. It does not clean fouling better IMO. Room temp water is fine. The avoidance also of petroleum products for rust preventatives are a recipe for rust. If you dont want the heavy tar from it mixing with black powder. Clean it with denatured alcohol before going shooting.
All the barrel seasoning and natural product hoopla is just that...hoopla. I know many have used nothing but and had no problems. But many people have ruined their guns with "natural" stuff. These barrels dont need seasoning.
Ballistol is a good product. Alot of uses but a master of none. Especially long term storage. It does not displace moisture. It mixes with it! Any corrosion test Ive ever seen it doesent do well. But Ive used many bottles of it. And still like it as a cleaner.
A builder in Tenn of flintlocks Tip Curtis told me he cleans the barrel with water , Dries it and then wipes it out with Hoppes 9. And hes built a few thousand guns. I just clean with water wipe it out good. Then flush with a water discplacing oil like Wd 40. Then a rust prevenative.
For a barrel Like Saltner. I would go the Kroil route that someone explained. Soak the bore in Kroil. Leave it for a while. I would then try some bore paste like JB on a very tight jag and see what happens. Saltner that barrel might be Ok
Ok Im ready to be pounded now for not liking "natural products and Ballistol for rust protection. Be easy on me fellas
Not me... I’m a fan of water or soap and water for cleaning and after it’s dry protect the metal with Eezox. Others tell me that Barricade has many of the same great qualities. It’s as good a metal protectant as anything available and better than most of what’s available. Does not mix with water and is in fact heavier than water. Dries to a clear protective film which is of course waterproof and very very thin. Doesn’t seem to react at all to blackpowder combustion the way petroleum products do so there is no need to remove the protective coating before loading up to go hunting or shooting at targets.

[doulos]

Not me... I’m a fan of water or soap and water for cleaning and after it’s dry protect the metal with Eezox. Others tell me that Barricade has many of the same great qualities. It’s as good a metal protectant as anything available and better than most of what’s available. Does not mix with water and is in fact heavier than water. Dries to a clear protective film which is of course waterproof and very very thin. Doesn’t seem to react at all to blackpowder combustion the way petroleum products do so there is no need to remove the protective coating before loading up to go hunting or shooting at targets.
I like Eezox also and Gunslick Gun Seal. Nothing beats RIG grease for long term storage.
I just have been in the habit now to wipe out the bore with denatured alcohol and a couple patches before snapping caps and then loading. I dont mind that. I wipe out all my centerfires too before going to the range.

[john.k]

Running a rod thru any gun before firing is a good idea.....there have been many incidents here caused by wasps building in barrels......One particular kind here build with the gum of the acacia ,a sort of hard yellow solid......very quick too,one tiny wasp can build a considerable deposit in a few hours ....not to mention a hundred different kinds of mudwasps.

[Caswell Ranch]

The easy way to avoid the corrosion damage of rifling caused by burnt powder residue , shoot a smoothbore :kidding:

[yeahbub]

Hmmmm. I'd be dismayed on seeing one of my barrels looking like that, but it definitely looks retrievable. Like others have posted, the first order of business is to clean and take another look. Then shoot it and see what results you get. If it tends to foul faster than before, you could also do some minor pressure-lapping to smooth off the edges of any pits. It should foul less then. That's been my experience. Paper patching is another option which also tends to smooth barrel steel.

[Woodnbow]

Unfortunately my Gibbs is dead, the barrel didn't last long. [smilie=b:
I suspect the steel of these barrels is poor.
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A short load of a video that I made with the borescope, it is also evident that the tool to finish the lands has climbed and crested a step.

Well hell. Send it to me and I’ll give it a proper burial!

[skeettx]

I SURE would try a Lewis Lead Remover

https://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/patches-mops/lead-remover/lewis-lead-remover-prod21587.aspx