Thoughts On A Gun And Cartridge For Bear Defense?

[kend]

I searched but didn't find exactly what I was looking for so here goes....my daughter and sil live in Boise and they like to go camping and hiking with their two kids (4 and 6) when the weather is nice so I gave my daughter my Glock 10mm as I was concerned about protection from wild animals but now I'm re-thinking that. I love the 10mm and have quite a collection of them but I think there's a better choice to stop a full grown bear from making a snack out of my grandkids so I was thinking a couple of short barreled AR's in 458 SOCOM with titanium suppressors might do the trick. My question to you guys is if you had a blank check and no restrictions, other than the recoil needs to be manageable, what would your choice be?

[slownsteady22]

44 mag in lever or semi auto rifle, maybe. Personally I would go with a 12 gauge, 18 or 20" barrel.
I should add I have no experience with bears although it is certainly on my hunting to do list.

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[Dan O]

Get them something that they will carry and not leave in the vehicle or at the camp. They are more apt to carry the 10mm than a long gun of any type. BUT if they do not practice on a regular basis then bear spray is a much better choice. The 10mm is a adequate cartridge for what your looking for. Plus recoil is not bad and it is easy to control. Add night sights and a laser and it will be good no matter if it's day or night.

[country gent]

Hits fast are what counts here. a range day with a few firearms to see what they can do handle is appropriate, for both of them remember it could end up in either hands when needed. As said above it needs to be with them not left in the car or camp when they are out and about in the woods. A lighter 12 or 20 gauge with heavy slugs. the 10mm with heavier slugs and limited expansion for the penetration would be good. If attacked its going to be an adrenaline stocked animal so good solid hits will be required.

[cwtebay]

I would advise one of the shorty 12 gauge pumps (like a Shockwave) and shoot HUNDREDS of rounds the. That said- I have carried a 44 mag SBH forever in bear country.
One word of advice though, a bear is sooooo much faster than any human that's ever lived - tell them to be smart and stay away from situations that put them in harm's way.

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[Randy Bohannon]

Winchester 1892 SRC in 45 Colt stoked with 300 gr. Accurate mould and 18-21 grs of H-110. Will shoot through anything on the planet easier to handle than the 458 SOCOM ,that 458 in a light short rifle will be handful or two.

[GhostHawk]

Shotgun, preferably pump. Lower priced and less to go wrong. With practice you can drop 5 aimed rounds like one long roll of thunder.

For bear id say #1 or 0 buckshot, 9 of them. Like getting shot by 9 Beretta 81's in .32acp at once. The shotgun load probably has better speed.

For close range, ie inside 20 feet even birdshot works.

[Larry Gibson]

Based on experience with a lot of folks who aren't normally carrying guns or even "gun nuts" I'd bet your daughter and SIL will more than likely leave a long gun in the vehicle, if it's even taken at all, especially with smaller children along. When hiking and camping with the kids the odds of either actually taking the long gun and keeping it accessible and loaded are slim to none with slim probably gone. The Glock 10mm will be much more likely to be carried and available should the need actually arise. Better that your daughter and SIL take the Glock with them than leaving the long gun at home or in the vehicle. Training on the Glocks use so they are readily familiar with it under pressure, training on when to shoot [most people don't shoot soon enough], a good wide and thick belt along with a comfortable holster are also necessary. Also training on "situational awareness" of seeing, identifying bear sign and doing things that do not attract bears around camp are should also be learned.

I lived in bear country for many years and spent a lot of time outdoors hunting, fishing, shooting and camping. When not carrying a rifle or shotgun I invariably had either a 45 ACP M1911, or a 357, 41 or 44 magnum revolver with me. I never had an "encounter" with a bear. Ran into a couple and had a close call once but avoided a problem without having to shoot. I did not fell under gunned with any of those handguns.

The Glock 10mm is a good choice, invest in training them so they enjoy shooting it and are comfortable carrying it instead of second guessing. Yes, there are a lot of bigger and possibly better firearms but will they have the bigger ones with them when needed?

[trapper9260]

Larry hit it right . years ago my of my sisters told me of a guy was in the woods in ME and had a black bear came on him and he took it down with a 38 Spl . . No problem .From what I was told . Just to give a idea. From the way it sound like also it was a sow with her young.

[SweetMk]

I would think about who is shooting this gun,,
my daughters would not shoot a 12 gauge pump a "SECOND" time,,
but, they both shoot my Benelli all the time.

My Benelli holds 9 rounds, and the recoil is very mild to say the least, for a shotgun.

https://i.imgur.com/eautIzf.jpg

For anyone scared of a shotgun recoil, I shoot the Benelli one handed, not against the shoulder.
That demo pretty much eliminates all fear of the gun.

Heck, I am positive that my S&W 629 with factory ammo kicks more than the Benelli,, LOTS more.
The Benelli is tame looking compared to an AR,, I do not think either of my daughters would pick up an AR,,,

The Benelli that I have came with screw in chokes, making it look even more like a true sporting weapon.

And, last of all, I have first hand knowledge of what the Benelli can do with a black bear.

[jonp]

The gun you carry is better than the one you don't. I don't know of many who go hiking with a shotgun before it would become so much of a pain they would leave it at home. A 10mm Glock seems like enough if she is going to carry it

[MT Gianni]

For Boise put bear bells on the kids and you are fine. I would think the 10mm is OK but the kids have to be trained to never be more than 20 yards away from the parents. It works fine as toddlers and poor as they age. Unless they push themselves into territory frequented by few and a ways North they are fine. Odds are if they are not gun people they won't even pack the pistol.

[Brass&Lead]

jonp is spot on “The gun you carry is better than the one you don't.” Please find out what they can handle and what size they would carry. All of them are better than a rock or sharp stick.

[waksupi]

As was said, a long gun will probably end up in the car. In that area, wolves are as big of a concern as bears. Best tip, tell them to not to take a dog with them.

[kootne]

Looking at what comes up regarding Idaho grizzly bear attacks it looks like they follow the Yellowstone Park/Montana line in the SE and spread out some when they get to the big wilderness areas and then pretty much any where in the panhandle. So if they are not hiking within that area I would not worry. But then I don't worry when I am in grizzly country, which has been 66 years. A lot of encounters are by hunters, who are a lot sneakier than families and get in under the line where the bears attitude changes from flight to fight. That is also the time of year the bears are really focused and protective of food. I would also suggest that a dog is bad idea, because they like to chase stuff and if the bear decides to chase the dog, the dog is liable to run right back to you. A lot of people also do not have a clue how to read animal behavior and don't realize panic and fear will often put panic in the animal. If you pack a gun, figure it is to peel the bear off the other guy, they can run twice as fast as you and in a surprise encounter he easily can be on you before you even get the gun out. Get good with the gun, a poorly trained unsafe individual that can't hit what they're shooting at is a lot higher percentage threat to their family than all the bears in Idaho.

[ebb]

Browning semi auto in 338win mag. But what many are saying it will be left in the car/truck is most likely true. Your 10mm sounds good to me if she is able to use it well and not get scared and waste shots. Depending on how high the number of encounters are I might be willing to carry the rifle.

[Conditor22]

for griz, I know a 50 AE works

[quilbilly]

Situational awareness!! Keep your eyes open and focused 360 degrees around and 50 feet or more away, especially your back trail. Haunt garage sales where people are selling off ski equipment and you might find used aluminum ski poles with pointed steel tips because not only are they great walking sticks but are a fearsome defensive weapon (unlike popular trekking poles) against man or beast. If lucky, the poles might be $5 or less then decorate them in fun colors. As a sidearm to accompany the pole, find something the kids have fun shooting in a heavy enough caliber to be effective. I like a 45LC revolver with 265 gr CB's at an MV of about 800 fps that even kids down to 10 years old enjoy shooting. If the kids don't think it is fun to shoot, it will stay in the car. If you are camping, don't just waltz back into camp thinking it is still yours. Stand back a moment, look around, and listen carefully before entering camp.

[444ttd]

12 ga pump with one double 00 shot and a tube full of slugs.

[shrapnel]

Lets look at this from a practical standpoint and not internet hearsay. There are lots of ideas on a bear gun, most are as close to a bear as I am to Mars. I have grown up around Bears, both Black and Grizzly. I have killed two Grizzlies and 4 black bears, none with a handgun.

If you are capable of carrying a long gun, they are the best option and a shotgun can be your best friend. I am assuming you are looking at handguns, which is what most people would end up taking into the woods.

I hunt elk every fall near Hebgen Lake, Montana where there is a high density of Grizzlies. I see them every fall, without encounters so far. That said, I still carry bear protection, both handgun and spray. I don't think much of the spray, but it has worked for some. The guy that got attacked several times last year sprayed the bear more than once by the same bear, so much for bear spray.

I carry a Smith and Wesson 686+ with a 3 inch barrel. It is a 357 magnum double action revolver with 7 chambers in the cylinder. That is better than 6, but still less than 10. It is compact, sits high on my belt and out of the way. You have to still be able to deploy the gun for it to do you any good. Getting it out of the holster is as important ans hitting something with it once it is out.

Semi Autos are more of a good idea than they are of real value. The safe aspects of them are thin. Of course they can be carried safely, but they are more inherent to an accidental discharge than a revolver.

Shooting the gun and being familiar with it is the most important aspect of any firearm and again, I believe the revolver wins in that respect. I do have a bunch of semi autos and under some circumstances, I would still carry one, but my primary carry gun is the 686+.

The 357 has plenty of power, not as much as a 44 mag, but any bullet that hits nothing but dirt is worthless. A 357 is more manageable than the heavier handgun chamberings and this is where being able to shoot is important.

The choice I made wasn't a singular idea from a trip to the gun shop, it is a result of carrying dozens of different handguns over decades and being on the lookout for a gun with the best purpose in mind under the most varied conditions. It is also accurate enough to pop the heads off of any grouse you see along the trail...


https://i.imgur.com/E6ihrw5l.jpg

[Shawlerbrook]

Was going to add my 2 cents, but Schrapnel pretty much covered it all. I do have a question for Schrapnel as I probably will be carrying my Ruger GP100 on my next Alaska trip. What 357 ammo do you choose for bear( big bear) protection ?

[shrapnel]

Was going to add my 2 cents, but Schrapnel pretty much covered it all. I do have a question for Schrapnel as I probably will be carrying my Ruger GP100 on my next Alaska trip. What 357 ammo do you choose for bear( big bear) protection ?

There are many thoughts on this too. I happen to carry full loaded 158 grain JHC loads. Some may say you need heavier bullets that are solid to penetrate further. Bears a big and big boned, you really need to kill them and a 158 grain bullet in the head will do that.

Bear skulls are not that thick, here is a 7 foot griz skull with a 25-35 bullet hole in it. DRT, the 25-35 isn't the top pick for big bears, but shot right will kill them. Myths abound about 30-06 bullets bouncing off a bear's skull...

https://i.imgur.com/UWPmCP2l.jpg

[rodwha]

Just know that grizzlies tend to want revenge when shot/injured. Bear spray usually works.

Our 11 year old daughter is not allowed to bring up the rear and she’s not allowed to be too far ahead either.

Air horns work rather well too. For us it’s the first line of defense followed by spray and then my .45 if all else fails. Not so sure I can do the play dead thing.

[megasupermagnum]

There are many thoughts on this too. I happen to carry full loaded 158 grain JHC loads. Some may say you need heavier bullets that are solid to penetrate further. Bears a big and big boned, you really need to kill them and a 158 grain bullet in the head will do that.

Bear skulls are not that thick, here is a 7 foot griz skull with a 25-35 bullet hole in it. DRT, the 25-35 isn't the top pick for big bears, but shot right will kill them. Myths abound about 30-06 bullets bouncing off a bear's skull...

https://i.imgur.com/UWPmCP2l.jpg

That does bring up an interesting question I've not thought about before. There is no doubt at all that a heavier bullet, say 200 grain, will penetrate farther through flesh than the standard 158 grain. If we are talking about just the skull, I'm not sure it is that simple. I know on hard objects, specifically steel, speed is the answer. A super fast 125 grain bullet is likely to do better against steel than a slower 200 grain. Or just go middle of the road like you did, they likely all work anyway.

[DW475]

There's a lot of good options for bear defense. I'm a 458 Socom fan but wouldn't recommend it unless they were reloading since 458 socom ammo isn't easy to find in the Boise area and it's expensive. I'm very familiar with the Boise area and hunted black bears in that area for many years. I would recommend they go to the indoor range in Boise and try out firearms that the range recommends for protection in bear country and see what is comfortable for them to handle and shoot accurately. Then practice, practice, practice. Also recommend bear bells on the packs when hiking.

[ironbrew]

Up here, we aren't allowed pistols. My choices would be bearspray and a handgun. 10mm should be good from what I've read. Because we aren't allowed handguns in the bush, I run a 45-70 carbine, stock a little shorter than what people seem to think is wise because it doesn't hang up on a coat nearly so easily (I can't emphasize this enough). Ghost rings are my favourite. I moved to a Henry X rifle this year to mount a flashlight on the forestock. The reason I went this way is so I can hunt ungulates and stop a bear with the same rifle. That, and I just like the 45-70.

If I didn't have that, it would be a pump action shotgun.

That being said, a firearm that hasn't been practiced with, or one that isn't carried are both pretty much useless. A handgun is much more likely to get carried.

[Wayne Smith]

I can't over emphasize the importance of practice, practice, and practice. Years ago when I was in grad school I was shooting on a regular basis at the Los Angeles South Coast Gun Club (yeah, it was that long ago). With my Super Blackhawk I could routinely hit six out of six at 100 yds on a 10" steel plate. Six months later, moved to New Hampshire, no practice, I hit one of six at the same target at the same range.

Especially with a handgun ongoing practice is essential, no matter what they carry.

[Norske]

Shrapnel's advice should be taken seriously. He lives and guides there. Phil Schoemaker (sp?) of Alaska (grizzlyskinsofalaska.com) recommends bear spray for all but expert shooters. The disadvantage of spray is the wind must be from behind the user, or the user is the recipient. Bear spray is a fog, not a stream like police spray. That's because if you need it, you won't have time to aim. Our stream fishing guide on Quartz Creek, Alaska carried a 44 magnum in a chest holster. He grew up on Kodiak Island. He explained to me the "Alaska load." I asked him why we commonly saw family groups in state forest trails with a 12 gauge shotgun-carrying young man. The Alaska load is a birdshot round in the chamber, then an extended magazine filled with slugs. If the "pheasant/duck" load to the bear's front doesn't turn the bear, the slugs will dismember even a big Alaskan brown bear.

[reloader28]

Leave the bear spray at home. It works ONLY in ideal conditions and even then it is only 50/50 because of air drift. You will NOT have time to get your gun out when you realize your spray aint gonna work.

And no Ghosthawk, birdshot does not work in side 20 feet, not even point blank. Dont believe me? I can introduce you to a man that dropped a sow at his feet with the last round in his pheasant hunting shotgun. She got up and went into the brush and was never found by G&F

[gbrown]

I was taught to shoot the 12 guage at the SO and FBI SWAT training from the hip. I'm right handed--tight grip, right forearm locked on top of stock, stock tight to waist, left hand on pump action (Remington 870). Left leg slightly forward, bend/lean forward, fire. See where you are patterning, reposition body til you can hit dead center at 25yds. You can use lighter loads for practice, then when confident, move up to buck or slug loads. Practice, practice, practice.

[outdoorfan]

That does bring up an interesting question I've not thought about before. There is no doubt at all that a heavier bullet, say 200 grain, will penetrate farther through flesh than the standard 158 grain. If we are talking about just the skull, I'm not sure it is that simple. I know on hard objects, specifically steel, speed is the answer. A super fast 125 grain bullet is likely to do better against steel than a slower 200 grain. Or just go middle of the road like you did, they likely all work anyway.

135 gr rnfp at 1200 fps out of 9mm went through 13 one gallon milk jugs with water. Barnes 165 ttsx at 3000 FPS penetrated 6. Yeah, the lighter pistol bullet penetrates just fine.

[M-Tecs]

My first choice is to have a firearm available. Camping and hiking with a long gun in a relatively low threat area get old really fast. While it's very true that it's easier to hit with a rifle or shotgun that only applies when it's within arms reach.

Some actual stats on handgun verse bear encounters here

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/03/update-handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attack-93-cases-97-effective/#axzz6iHJ2ADIk

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz6iHJ2ADIk

In some case the bear was not hit however the noise and or muzzle flash stopped the encounter.

[JSnover]

so I was thinking a couple of short barreled AR's in 458 SOCOM with titanium suppressors might do the trick.

I wouldn't bother with anything like that. Way too much money for a pair of guns that might never be used, features and options that need to be learned, plus more weight to carry while they're out hiking with the kids. Ammo might be hard to find but on the plus side you'll probably never need more than one box. Stick with the 10mm, Get some range time in, they'll be fine.

[pls1911]

Ruger Alaskan in 454 Casull... practice with 45 colt ammo is actually pleasant.
I'd think in actual use, adrenaline will negate the recoil difference.
Make no mistake... after much practice with full up .454 ammo, your orthoMD will insist you leave it at home, sell it, or prepare to be have life long wrist issues.
(No, I don't plan on any bear encounters....but who does?)

Having said that, the commentary promoting the 12 gauge solution is the best and most practical, if you'll carry it.

[Eddie Southgate]

Hard cast bullets with a fairly stout load . I would be carrying my Charter Arms Target Bulldog .44 Spl with Elmer's bullet and Skeeters 7.5 gr of Unique . It's light even with the 4" barrel and has good sights . Only has 5 rounds but if 5 good hits don't stop it one more is not likely gonna make much difference . If I was in real bear country I'd back that up with a light 12ga with slugs .

[dverna]

A long gun is definitely out as it is too easy to leave it where a child can get at it at the camp and leaving it unloaded makes it next to useless. So you need something they will carry on them ALL THE TIME so the kids cannot get to it. They are likely going to miss anyway unless the bear is really close so hopefully the noise drives the bear away. Not many "normal" folks can hit much with a pistol under ideal conditions. Being all pumped up and defending your kids makes it even tougher, so it is more a "feel good" thing and noise maker.

Have some air horns laying around. The kids can deploy them when they see a bear. Tie the kids to a tree so they do not wander off. Get ready for CPS to visit for tying up the kids.... Best thing is to get a dog and not one they love a lot. The dog gives time to get the away, or get to the shotgun loaded with buckshot that is locked up somewhere.....LOL

I only have black bears here and one big one that bothers us. He loves to dumpster dive. I carry a 9mm or .40 Glock in the spring if out in the woods, or walking to the mail box (it is 2.5 miles away...yep live a bit isolated). Not sure about the bears they will face, but here, unless you get between a sow and her cubs, you will only see the south end of a north bound bear if you walk up on one. I love dogs so would feel bad about using one to tangle with a pissed off bear while I ran away like a little girl. YMMV

[memtb]

A long gun....shotgun with slugs or larger caliber rifle with premium, or heavy for caliber cast bullets, trump a handgun every time. The problem with long guns is that, they are somewhat impractical to carry “full-time” when doing camp chores or activities with the family. A bear rarely announces it’s intentions prior to an earnest attack! Unless, the long gun is in your hands, you may not get into the fight....unless another family member has the bears undivided attention. Then, try not to shoot a loved one!

Many folks want a medium to large caliber semi-auto, because of the rapid shots available. Going back to the previous long gun statement....the bear rarely announces it’s intentions. Meaning you may not even get the handgun into the fight, and if you do, rapid fire, accurate shots are improbable ....unless your Jerry Miculek! IMO, you would be better armed with a large caliber (.44 and larger) revolver, shooting heavy for caliber, cast, wide metplat bullets....and assume that at best you may only get one or two semi-well placed shots into the bear. Assuming that you only get a round or two off.....the biggest, heaviest, non-expanding bullets are a plus. Whether semi-auto or revolver....the shooter needs to be proficient with the firearm! And, as mentioned before....you don’t want to take out a loved one.

Composure under duress is at a premium in these situations!

Which now brings us to pepper spray. The aforementioned comments also apply here....the pepper spray must be readily available! The huge advantage with pepper spray is accuracy is not at a premium. You have a fairly wide spray pattern, you don’t need a near surgically placed shot to stop the bear....you literally, “spray and pray”! If you “hose-down” a family member, while “hosing-down” the bear.....they merely suffer some intense discomfort rather than a potentially life ending bullet wound. The one huge negative with spray.....wind direction. If you are the one being attacked, wind doesn’t figure into the equation.... as it’s happening at “point blank” range. If it’s a family member, again composure under duress is involved, close the distance so wind is not a factor. Not only will you be able to get the spray on target, but you may distract the bear....before the attack becomes terminal for the one being attacked!

It’s very easy to apply all of these concepts from the safety of my keyboard....but, I think that they are pretty valid statements.

I’ve only killed two black bears (one handgun, one rifle), and no grizzlies. The handgun black bear (hunting) was less than 10 feet from me, and I couldn’t get a shot off....thick brush between the bear and I. The actual shot came minutes later at a distance of around 30 yards....I stalked up to the bear! I was pretty composed....but, I wasn’t being attacked.

The commonalities of Black Bears, and Grizzlies.....they both can move almost silently, can move very fast,powerful, and are deadly predators! memtb

[rodwha]

135 gr rnfp at 1200 fps out of 9mm went through 13 one gallon milk jugs with water. Barnes 165 ttsx at 3000 FPS penetrated 6. Yeah, the lighter pistol bullet penetrates just fine.

Ummm, the later bullet was designed to expand rapidly whereas the former was not. Not a good comparison for looking at penetration capabilities...

[cwtebay]

A grizzly bear head provides a frontal area roughly that of a cantelope - so could you - or anyone for that matter - go from your evening walk to full on charge from 10 yards, draw and shoot and fire accurately enough to save your family? I see several of the posters here have had bear encounters, as have I. It is by the grace of God that I am not bear faeces at this point. My close up encounters have all been encountering a bear where neither of us was.aware of the other. It happens sooooooo fast, the bluff charge is faster than I can come close to drawing, let alone firing - when inside of 20 yards. Many accounts of bear encounters end with a dead bear - and person, implying that even though the gunfire was 'accurate enough' it wasn't instantly fatal. My point being, pick the gun that you feel best about carrying and shoot it until you're sick of it, then shoot another thousand rounds - because if you do end up with the opportunity to make that family saving shot - make sure you've thought of all eventualities.

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[rodwha]

Didn’t register it was posted...

[MT Gianni]

A grizzly bear head provides a frontal area roughly that of a cantelope - so could you - or anyone for that matter - go from your evening walk to full on charge from 10 yards, draw and shoot and fire accurately enough to save your family? I see several of the posters here have had bear encounters, as have I. It is by the grace of God that I am not bear faeces at this point. My close up encounters have all been encountering a bear where neither of us was.aware of the other. It happens sooooooo fast, the bluff charge is faster than I can come close to drawing, let alone firing - when inside of 20 yards. Many accounts of bear encounters end with a dead bear - and person, implying that even though the gunfire was 'accurate enough' it wasn't instantly fatal. My point being, pick the gun that you feel best about carrying and shoot it until you're sick of it, then shoot another thousand rounds - because if you do end up with the opportunity to make that family saving shot - make sure you've thought of all eventualities.

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Also the head area of a bear is probably on a slant to your line of fire, which can really reduce penetration. Try to break it down by shooting shoulder or spine.

[cwtebay]

Also the head area of a bear is probably on a slant to your line of fire, which can really reduce penetration. Try to break it down by shooting shoulder or spine.You're not wrong!!! But adrenaline says a lot for man and beast. Here are a couple of pictures of a lowly 250# black bear shot through the thoracic spine. She made it the 80ish yards to me before I shot her through the head. Shot with a 338 Mag with a 225 grain bullet.... both times. (Wish I would have had the forethought to photograph the damage done to her aorta and heart with the first shot).274432274433

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[memtb]

With an oxygenated blood system, and the speed at which can travel.....obviously they can go a ways. Had the bear been at powder burn distance on the first shot....the bear could’ve used that 3 or 4 seconds rearranging your body parts! ;-) That’s the reason that to stop an attack before tremendous damage can be done, requires a CNS hit. memtb

[tominboise]

Shrapnel and some others have good advice. I was born and raised in Montana and have lived in Boise for 20 years. Personally, I am more worried about Mountain Lions when I am out in the woods as opposed to bears, for the most part. Chances are good that they will make enough noise when out hiking that any wildlife that happens to be in the area will be long gone. They should be making noise.

I always carry a handgun when in the woods (and the rest of time, for that matter), unless I am actually hunting, in which case I will also have a rifle. I have a Glock 10mm and sometimes carry it but also carry N Frame S&W's in a meaningful caliber. I use a chest holster (Gunfighters, Inc Kenai or Hill People Gear Kit bag), as I can wear a back pack and carry a rifle (if hunting) at the same time.

Revolvers need to be double action and they need to practice shooting them DA. They won't have time to draw and cock a single action if the bad thing were to happen. Forget the long gun unless they are going bear hunting.

[outdoorfan]

Ummm, the later bullet was designed to expand rapidly whereas the former was not. Not a good comparison for looking at penetration capabilities...

360640 cup hp, 153 gr, same alloy and bhn as before. Exited 6th jug at 2050 fps impact.

My point is that, who would have thought a puny little 9 mm could give that kind of penetration, through 13 jugs? It blew my mind!

[memtb]

I think that sectional density (weight to diameter) plays favorably for that bullet in a 9mm! Is that particular bullet a round or semi-pointed bullet? memtb

[white eagle]

I searched but didn't find exactly what I was looking for so here goes....my daughter and sil live in Boise and they like to go camping and hiking with their two kids (4 and 6) when the weather is nice so I gave my daughter my Glock 10mm as I was concerned about protection from wild animals but now I'm re-thinking that. I love the 10mm and have quite a collection of them but I think there's a better choice to stop a full grown bear from making a snack out of my grandkids so I was thinking a couple of short barreled AR's in 458 SOCOM with titanium suppressors might do the trick. My question to you guys is if you had a blank check and no restrictions, other than the recoil needs to be manageable, what would your choice be?

10 mm is better than nothing and if it makes you feel good carry it
but a bear is best to be left alone when you walk in his country you are taking a risk
personally a 12 ga loaded with slugs will make them see things your way

[Three44s]

Two women with kids packing a long gun at all times?

Not!

A good revolver that they can handle with both adult females packing a gun that uses the same cartridge. I greatly prefer a DA but an SA might be better for a woman (trigger reach and controllability).

I have seen too many females that could not “rack the slide” of a semi auto pistol. Add the operating complexities and the fact that bullets designed for autos are made to do one thing better than best bear performance. That one thing is to function reliably. Into the chamber and back out. If the shooter limp wrists an auto loader that can also cause a fail to function.

The most likely scenario if they get attacked is not stopping a charge but rather break up a mauling in progress. That’s why both adults need to pack! If the person mauled is the only one packing, how does that solve anything?

MT Gianni nails it!

Unless the bear is posing for a picture hitting the head well in a charge is a fairy tale.

Break the bear down with a substantial slug hitting the approximate area of the front shoulders where they tie together. Then proceed to take it down further.

The bear loses directional control by breaking that front shoulder area and you begin to reassert your control of the situation.

Whimpy bullets from whimpy cartridges are not for me.

With the right loads there are more women that can master the .44 Mag than we realize!

My favorite packer is a S&W 629-4 Mountain Gun with the supplied “Goodyear” rubber grips (44 Mag)

A lady whose is the wife of a good friend and retired cow vet fired some warm up rounds and then my usual non-bear load in HS6 with the RCBS 250K cast. That load is not my first choice for a bear problem BUT if that’s whats in it, then it will have to do!

The load runs 1066 FPS and the lady shooting it is hardly a summo wrestler. She is tall and thin and a retired Airline captain but she is a woods frequenter. She told me she could fire that all day! I was surprised by her comment.

I can not get my wife within a mile of that however! My wife is no dink either but the fist Lady has longer fingers. Thus she could better wrap around the N frame grip. My wife’s fingers are not long enough.

Is 1066 FPS and 250 gr enough. Well John Linebaughs son hunted and killed a Polar bear with a custom Ruger SA shooting that much ballistics out of a 45 Colt!

So my point is big does not have to be bad, in fact managed correctly it is better. The grip frame and trigger reach have to be right for the person shooting it. The person needs some strength. That can be modified by the person themselves with a desire and some work.

While I really believe in DA revolvers, a woman who has hands built more for a SA revolver or just can’t fire a DA in DA mode could well look at a SA revolver. The Ruger Blackhawk in .41 Mag could be a real solution as the smaller lighter frame would pack nicer than a SBH.

It takes desire, time and resources (lighter loads) to affect the proper outcome however. You just do not hand a gun on somebody and reasonably expect them to perform sufficiently.

Three44s

[outdoorfan]

I think that sectional density (weight to diameter) plays favorably for that bullet in a 9mm! Is that particular bullet a round or semi-pointed bullet? memtb

Mp 359-125. Meplat has about 0.23, I think. Although it might be a hair less.

[memtb]

Mp 359-125. Meplat has about 0.23, I think. Although it might be a hair less.


That should be a penetrator, maybe not a devastator.....but darn surely a penetrator. Where penetrating is a must.....that’ll gitt’r done! memtb

[rogn]

Leave the bear spray at home. It works ONLY in ideal conditions and even then it is only 50/50 because of air drift. You will NOT have time to get your gun out when you realize your spray aint gonna work.

And no Ghosthawk, birdshot does not work in side 20 feet, not even point blank. Dont believe me? I can introduce you to a man that dropped a sow at his feet with the last round in his pheasant hunting shotgun. She got up and went into the brush and was never found by G&F

At one point I could introduce you to a Rottweiler that had been shot in the head at point blank range with 12 ga birdshot. I cleaned and flushed the wound, put in a drain and loaded it up with ABs. 6 weeks later you could barely tell it had been shot. As long as you didn't pet its head-there was considerable muscle loss on one side of the head.
Ive also raed a lot of stories where the common "rifled slug" is too soft , flattens out and frequently doesn't penetrate well. Breneke slugs seem to be the preferred brand for serious work.

[memtb]

At one point I could introduce you to a Rottweiler that had been shot in the head at point blank range with 12 ga birdshot. I cleaned and flushed the wound, put in a drain and loaded it up with ABs. 6 weeks later you could barely tell it had been shot. As long as you didn't pet its head-there was considerable muscle loss on one side of the head.
Ive also raed a lot of stories where the common "rifled slug" is too soft , flattens out and frequently doesn't penetrate well. Breneke slugs seem to be the preferred brand for serious work.

Very correct about the typical soft shotgun slug. Already wide a projectile in relation to weight (low sectional density), add to this it’s rapid expansion (flattening) due to it’s softness....equals minimal penetration! memtb

[fcvan]

A guy I knew hunted Africa. He said the guides all carried 12 ga pump shotguns with slugs.

[Kosh75287]

IF THEY WILL CARRY IT RELIGIOUSLY, A lever-action or gas-auto .358 Winchester with a ghost-ring sight. A more "real-world" solution would be a Lever-action .45-70. For short range bear-stopping, I'd BET that even the mild factory load would be very effective.

Since humans cannot normally be expected to always bring a rifle under such circumstances, a 10mm, loaded with a 180 gr. FMJ or LRN to max velocity would be MY choice, IN AN AUTOMATIC.
Any revolver chambered for .41 Mag or larger and loaded with the ballistic (momentum) equivalent of the Keith/Skelton .44 Special load, 7.5/Unique/245 gr. LSWC would be about as good as it can get in terms of portability, controllability and "bear-stop-ability". If more emphatic loads can be shot well by those likely to have to shoot, so much the better. Velocities in the 1100 - 1250 f/s are probably the max that can be well controlled under time pressure, even with considerable practice.

Just because a professional guide killed an attacking bear recently with a 9x19mm DOES NOT MAKE THE 9mm A BEAR-DEFENSE GUN! We need to get away from that, and think in terms of what the minimum handgun ballistics for whitetail deer are, and work up. If it won't reliably drop a medium sized whitetail, I wouldn't feel conifdent about it stopping a bear agitated enough to go after a human.

[Cast10]

I have a fancy to spend some time in Alaska before I get too old. Hope I can! That being said, I have a Glock 10mm/15 shot and now a MechTech upper that replaces the Glock slide with a 16in carbine! It can spew them out too! Red dot site on top of it. I would not feel disadvantaged at all. Carry the carbine and a pistol along. I am building a frame dedicated to the carbine now.

[badguybuster]

Ive hiked and packed through a lot of bear country and as stated "a long gun is better" however a handgun is more likely to be carried. I would not advise anything less than 357 mag with a good heavy hard cast but 44 would be ideal. If a semi, then definitely a heavy 10mm load. That being said, they need to get into the habit of making A LOT of noise while traversing bear country. Theyll avoid you 99% of the time.

[mart]

Shrapnel did a great job of covering this. I live in Alaska and cannot tell you how many times I've seen long guns left in the boat or on the bank out of reach when folks are fishing. I've only ever seen one non hunting hiker carrying a long gun in the last 18 years here in Alaska. And they looked they were sick of packing it. Long guns are better for bear defense if it is on your person, but a family with kids out camping are not going to be strapping a long gun to their body as they go about the routine of setting up camp. It's quite simply going to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Like leaning against a tree on the other side of the bear. You can have all the situational awareness in the world and still turn around and have a bear in camp.

A 357 revolver with a good bullet. a stoutly loaded 44 Special or a 10mm with the heavy game loads all will suffice for a novice. I see guys at the range every year, new to Alaska trying to shoot 454s and 500 S&Ws with no experience with that level of recoil. Even with light loads, a revolver chambered for either, that is reasonably packable, has noticeable recoil. And smaller framed folks are not going to be comfortable packing a 4 inch Redhawk, Super Redhawk or 500 S&W. The gun will end up in a pack or back in the car.

There is no perfect answer for the optimum carry gun for bear protection. But it has to be something that can be on the body at all times. And it has to be something the carrier can shoot well.

[megasupermagnum]

IF THEY WILL CARRY IT RELIGIOUSLY, A lever-action or gas-auto .358 Winchester with a ghost-ring sight. A more "real-world" solution would be a Lever-action .45-70. For short range bear-stopping, I'd BET that even the mild factory load would be very effective.

Since humans cannot normally be expected to always bring a rifle under such circumstances, a 10mm, loaded with a 180 gr. FMJ or LRN to max velocity would be MY choice, IN AN AUTOMATIC.
Any revolver chambered for .41 Mag or larger and loaded with the ballistic (momentum) equivalent of the Keith/Skelton .44 Special load, 7.5/Unique/245 gr. LSWC would be about as good as it can get in terms of portability, controllability and "bear-stop-ability". If more emphatic loads can be shot well by those likely to have to shoot, so much the better. Velocities in the 1100 - 1250 f/s are probably the max that can be well controlled under time pressure, even with considerable practice.

Just because a professional guide killed an attacking bear recently with a 9x19mm DOES NOT MAKE THE 9mm A BEAR-DEFENSE GUN! We need to get away from that, and think in terms of what the minimum handgun ballistics for whitetail deer are, and work up. If it won't reliably drop a medium sized whitetail, I wouldn't feel conifdent about it stopping a bear agitated enough to go after a human.

You don't think a 9mm Luger could reliably kill a whitetail?

[Kosh75287]

You don't think a 9mm Luger could reliably kill a whitetail? YUP! Just like I think a 9x25mm Mauser could reliably kill an Elephant. But THAT doesn't make the 9x25 Mauser an ELEPHANT GUN! FOLLOW the LOGIC, please!

[megasupermagnum]

So what do you consider the minimum handgun ballistics for whitetail deer? The only thing I see wrong with 9mm luger is that factory loadings are either hardball, or fast expanding hollow points. Neither being ideal for hunting. I only ask this because there is no set minimum that everyone agrees on. I can't imagine why I ever would, but given the opportunity, I would gladly hunt deer with a 9mm Luger, or 38 special. I've intentionally hunted, and killed a deer with the 327 Federal, which is only a little more powerful. Personally I'd draw the line at 380 ACP. Anything under that and you would be walking a real fine line between causing enough damage, and still being able to double lung them.

As was stated earlier, 9mm Luger can be quite the penetrator if that is all that is desired.

[cwtebay]

WOW!!! This discussion has gone off the reservation!!!

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[fcvan]

Okay, I couldn't resist it. I have an airsoft pistol that is devastating on gummy bears :)

[missionary5155]

My personal rule for self defense is I carry the largest slug flinger I will be Content with. I like a 40 something.
For a 300# beast that will be looking to chomp on me that means a 40 something revolver that an slurp out a 300 grain FN cast at least 850 fps.
I still prefer a RB loaded smoothbore or a repeater rifle if I know there is some real issue out there.
My getting home means I will suffer the weight or issues needed or stay out of the woods.

[cwtebay]

Ok, little time off topic but this was too good to not share!
Apparently, an ER doc buddy of mine has treated 2 families for severe "chemical type burns" to faces and bodies. The poor folks decided that bear spray should be applied like mosquito spray!! I can only imagine this particular doc triaging those (I've hunted in the back country with him for years)!!!!

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[45-70 Chevroner]

I have been roaming the woods here in Arizona for many years, I am almost 80 and yes we have a good amount of black bear here. In all my years of hunting here (60 plus) I've never in countered one while hunting. I have seen quite a few while just driving the back roads though. I would never go hiking or hunting with anything less than a 357 or a 44. We have hand gun hunting seasons here. My brother in law and I were out north of Prescott one year just walking and shooting Jack rabbits. We were quite a few miles from the nearest house. We heard a lot of barking and that was a little strange because of the distance we were from the nearest home. We both had 357 Blackhawks. All of a sudden 5 dogs came up out of a revine and just by the way they were barking and growling we new they weren't coming to play with us. They were about 50 yards from us when they came out of the revine. We waited tell they were about 20 yards from us, they were coming pretty fast. We killed 3 of them, I guess the last two decided they had had enough and and took off for better pastures. The three we killed were two German Sheppard's and one mixed breed. Our cast boolits went all the way through front to butt DRT. It was actually quite scary and the adrenalin was running pretty high. Not a bear but it could have turned out differently if we were just hiking and didn't have a gun with us.

[Winger Ed.]

I'd give a serious look at a Stainless, 4", S&W .44Mag, and a comfortable shoulder holster.

[cp1969]

I'd give a serious look at a Stainless, 4", S&W .44Mag, and a comfortable shoulder holster.

Yes. Firing a non-expanding bullet at about 1250 fps.

[brass410]

44 mag is the minimal for those prviliged to get a bear defence carry permit in Ontario Canada, the black bears can be quite large in the northern part of the province.

[Jim22]

I have hunted with handguns including the .44 magnum. I have also seen a few Alaskan bears killed. I would not rely on any handgun for them. Black bears maybe. The fellows I hunted with said to break the bear down by incapacitating the shoulders and spine. Then kill it. No handgun will do that. Those guys both carried Model 70's in .375 H&H. They were well known as well.

[M-Tecs]

Survivor of Grizzly Bear Attack in Dupuyer, Montana Used .44 Magnum

https://www.ammoland.com/2021/01/survivor-of-grizzly-bear-attack-in-dupuyer-montana-used-44-magnum/

[Bigbore5]

Probably an ultra light poly frame 357 snubby. That way they will have it with them instead of in the car or at home.

[memtb]

After personally being involved in shooting a large bore raccoon, with a .357 mag., using my hand loads loaded just below the point of near impossible extraction.....I’ll opt for something a bit more potent than a .357! The “coon” I shot was on a large limb, and was hit twice broadside, either hit would have killed him! One hit near the last rib, the other.....just behind the shoulder. After the second hit, the raccoon fell from the limb, and ran off. He went somewhere beyond 50 yards. Had this been an aggressive carnivore larger than a 20 or so pound raccoon.....I wouldn’t be typing this little story! :) memtb