Let all of us be aware, and have patience with, the flood of new gun owners.

[Joe504]

I have been running my self ragged online answering questions and providing info to what appears to be stupid questions.

Many of these questions make me really nervous.

Attached is one of those questions, and the answer by an apparent engineer who I think should have let someone else answer the question.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201228/3ad6b066bac544f9d656dc5e9678ba3a.jpg

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201228/349d9e2511b03ec98387260bb3b1d010.jpg

[bayjoe]

That's down right scary!!!!!!

[abunaitoo]

Idiot.
Problem with many new shooters, is all the know about firearms is from a video game, TV, movies, or magazines.
We have a ton of "experts" here, that know everything, but have no idea what their doing.
Must be nice to walk into a store and spend over $1000 on something you know nothing about.
$1000+ firearm and buy the cheapest ammo.
At the range.
No idea how to hold the bolt open.
Trying to close the bolt, and drop the mag.
Must be nice to have money to burn.

[MT Gianni]

You can neither argue with an engineer nor tell one what to do, other than KMB. Just let idiots be idiots.

[tankgunner59]

Dear God in heaven! We are going to have people shooting themselves all over this country!!!

[Brass&Lead]

Joe504 thanks for your efforts in trying to help those who need it most.

The old saying: “You can lead a horse to water but can’t make him drink”. The person that said that obviously did not handle animals as there are several ways to get a horse to drink – the easiest is to put a bit of salt in their feed.

Have you found good methods to get people to search, read and learn?

[gon2shoot]

I have a rule, if people insist on being stupid I'll help em.

[Wheelguns 1961]

People have questions about a firearm, and the first thing they do is ask a bunch of strangers on the internet. I would tell them to read their owners manual.

[Shawlerbrook]

Just more ammo(pun intended) for the gun grabbers to require mandatory training, etc. before purchasing guns.

[Davy Sprocket]

Oh, it will feed into the chamber just fine. You just have to rack the slide after each shot. Haven't gone past 2 or 3 rounds, so wouldn't know what happens after that.

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[JoeJames]

Wow, another grand reason I do not shoot at a range.

[marek313]

Just wait a second here. This guy is not an engineer hes a college professor and his question should tell you everything about his engineering skills. They are on par with Dr Dre's life saving medical skills because hes a doctor right.

Sadly they dont teach common sense in college these days. Actually they dont teach you much at all period these days. What happend to "Critical Thinking" classes we had back in the day? I feel like those are all lost now days. Sad really.

[StuBach]

Just wait a second here. This guy is not an engineer hes a college professor and his question should tell you everything about his engineering skills. They are on par with Dr Dre's life saving medical skills because hes a doctor right.

Sadly they dont teach common sense in college these days. Actually they dont teach you much at all period these days. What happend to "Critical Thinking" classes we had back in the day? I feel like those are all lost now days. Sad really.

I was a certified MS/HS teacher but admittedly I only got through student teaching and subbing before I realized it’s not a great industry and ended up as a business consultant. That being said, all teachers are taught now is teach to the test (whatever that test is in your area). Critical thinking and common sense can’t be measured on a standardized multiple choice test so they don’t worry about it.

When no child left behind started it caused all schools to stop pushing kids to be better and they had to start contouring lesson plans to the weakest in the room which slowed everyone else down and curtailed their ability to learn real world application. Now it’s all memorization.

Sad fact is that the quality of worker in the US is dropping and all businesses are suffering because of it. The businesses I consult keep getting applicant who expect high wages to sit on their tuff and text on their phone all day rather than doing what they were hired to do.

Difference is, good business owners/managers are working through it to continue delivering to their customer, poor owners/operators aren’t, you as the customer choose who can earn your business. Sadly, in my area all three shippers suck so I’m just stuck. [emoji30]

[Winger Ed.]

From one end of the spectrum to the other; such as a mentor, over to a Darwin award winner:

Some people's purpose in life is to serve as an example to others.

I try to help people when I can, however---
Something else I've learned over the years is that you can't save a fool from their self.

[Joe504]

Joe504 thanks for your efforts in trying to help those who need it most.

The old saying: “You can lead a horse to water but can’t make him drink”. The person that said that obviously did not handle animals as there are several ways to get a horse to drink – the easiest is to put a bit of salt in their feed.

Have you found good methods to get people to search, read and learn?Unfortunately, no. What I am hoping is that other who are reading will absorb the knowledge.

Most of it is on a FB reloading forum where everyday someone says "I'm new to relaoding, what progressive press should I get?". I always try to convince them to start with a single stage, as even if they move to a progressive, there is always a use for a single stage press.

I have offered to video chat with any of them to go over the basics, but none have taken me up on that as of yet.

I'm certain some of these people will destroy a gun, and hopefully not injure anyone.


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[tomme boy]

Every place I worked at the engineers were not allowed to walk out into the factory unless being escorted by a maintenance mechanic or electrician. They may be smart in one way, but they are not smart enough to not step into a oncoming fork truck.

[Joe504]

These are the questions that I get worried about.

This question can only come from a complete lack of knowledge of the fundamentals of relaoding. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201228/019d8ef0dc027e5fd85055e0d16a2913.jpg

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[gbrown]

My father was a journeyman ironworker for over 45 years. He knew about structural engineering. He had engineers from all over the country calling and asking for advice. This back in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Always curious about why these fellows with college degrees were calling a guy with a high school diploma. He worked a local job, one time, told the supervisor and engineer that the trusses they had wouldn't support any weight. Sure enough, we had a hail storm, 2 inches. Roof collapsed, killing one. They paid over a million dollars for their ignorance. Moral-- College education does not translate to common sense.

[dtknowles]

Every place I worked at the engineers were not allowed to walk out into the factory unless being escorted by a maintenance mechanic or electrician. They may be smart in one way, but they are not smart enough to not step into a oncoming fork truck.

This kind of stuff makes me mad. I am an engineer, I have a BS in Aeronautical Engineering. Before I went to college I drove tractors in fields and forklifts in barns and warehouses. Mechanics have often called me and asked that I come out on the floor to work thru things with them. I have seen more than one mechanic or electrical tech promoted to Engineer. Whenever we are putting a new machine in the factory engineers supervise and no we do not need an escort to keep us from getting hurt. As often as not an engineer has prevented a mechanic from getting hurt. Anyone can be stupid. Today after working 40 years in our nations space programs I am now Chief Engineer in an small aerospace start up. I worked on the first Space Shuttle Launch as a Test Engineer. I supervised the mechanics who tested the first Space Shuttle External Tank to fly into space.

Engineer, what does that word mean to you. Manufacturing Engineer, Test Engineer, Design Engineer, Materials Engineer, Safety Engineer, Systems Engineer, Electrical Engineer, Chemical Engineer, Civil Engineer, Architectural Engineer, Structural Engineer. There is a team of engineers behind your favorite firearm and I bet they don't need an escort to keep from stepping in front of a fork truck.

Tim

[Sig556r]

There is a difference between a theoretical engineering professor & a practicing engineer.

[dtknowles]

My father was a journeyman ironworker for over 45 years. He knew about structural engineering. He had engineers from all over the country calling and asking for advice. This back in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Always curious about why these fellows with college degrees were calling a guy with a high school diploma. He worked a local job, one time, told the supervisor and engineer that the trusses they had wouldn't support any weight. Sure enough, we had a hail storm, 2 inches. Roof collapsed, killing one. They paid over a million dollars for their ignorance. Moral-- College education does not translate to common sense.

All a college education does is screen out some of those who don't have the potential to succeed. Some idiots do get through that screen but hopefully are weeded out soon enough. I can tell you why smart engineers called upon your father for advice. Experience and practicality. There is a lot you cannot learn in school, you have to do it and see it first hand. I expect that your Dad had seen a lot of good and bad designs. I love to have feed back from the people who actually build things, rarely is it that they don't have ideas that will make a design better. A college education may not give you common sense but it does not eliminate it if you already have it.

Tim

[dtknowles]

There is a difference between a theoretical engineering professor & a practicing engineer.

A theoretical engineering professor is a scientist not an engineer. A professor of engineer is a teacher not an engineer unless they worked as an engineer before they went off to teach. If they never left the university they are probably not an engineer. I got my degree from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University. Most of my engineering professors worked in industry before they came to the school to teach. They had a lot of practical experience.

To listen to some here you would be surprised that an engineer could cast bullets and load ammo or even smith a gun.

Tim

[kevin c]

There certainly is a lot of ignorance out there. Thankfully, if there is a willingness on the one hand to learn, and on the other to teach, that can be corrected. Thanks for your efforts there, Joe.

There is, of course, stupidity, which implies a lack of ability to learn, and willful ignorance, which is a refusal to learn, for whatever reason. Those are a lot harder to fix.

[dtknowles]

There certainly is a lot of ignorance out there. Thankfully, if there is a willingness on the one hand to learn, and on the other to teach, that can be corrected. Thanks for your efforts there, Joe.

There is, of course, stupidity, which implies a lack of ability to learn, and willful ignorance, which is a refusal to learn, for whatever reason. Those are a lot harder to fix.

There is a lot of bad advice too. You see it and hear it almost every day at the range and some just funny stuff. I had my Swedish rolling block at the range when guys were sighting in for hunting season and this one guy kept calling it a muzzle loader even after I showed him the cartridges. Why, because it was legal to use in our "primitive hunting season" if it is over I think 35 caliber, single shot and has an exposed hammer you can use it for what used to be "muzzle loading deer season" Their muzzle loader was a 444 marlin handi rifle.

Tim

[Idaho45guy]

I work with mostly electrical engineers for an actual engineering company. We also have a manufacturing division that I also work with. Stupid people with no common sense are evenly split between those with barely a high school diploma, and those with advanced degrees. I can think of several examples from both groups that make you wonder how they managed to get dressed that morning.

[MrWolf]

This kind of stuff makes me mad. I am an engineer, I have a BS in Aeronautical Engineering. Before I went to college I drove tractors in fields and forklifts in barns and warehouses. Mechanics have often called me and asked that I come out on the floor to work thru things with them. I have seen more than one mechanic or electrical tech promoted to Engineer. Whenever we are putting a new machine in the factory engineers supervise and no we do not need an escort to keep us from getting hurt. As often as not an engineer has prevented a mechanic from getting hurt. Anyone can be stupid. Today after working 40 years in our nations space programs I am now Chief Engineer in an small aerospace start up. I worked on the first Space Shuttle Launch as a Test Engineer. I supervised the mechanics who tested the first Space Shuttle External Tank to fly into space.

Engineer, what does that word mean to you. Manufacturing Engineer, Test Engineer, Design Engineer, Materials Engineer, Safety Engineer, Systems Engineer, Electrical Engineer, Chemical Engineer, Civil Engineer, Architectural Engineer, Structural Engineer. There is a team of engineers behind your favorite firearm and I bet they don't need an escort to keep from stepping in front of a fork truck.

Tim

Hehe I hear ya. Like being lumped in with bean counters when you are a CPA.

[BJK]

There are good engineers and some who couldn't engineer their way out of a barn if the door was open. Where I worked one of the experienced engineers who was part of the hiring process for new engineers and I were discussing a new hire. He told me that they didn't expect new hires to amount to much for at least 2 years. When one showed up with that, "I'm here to make things better.", look on their face I would go out to help them. I wanted to make sure that at the least they didn't add to my work load by screwing things up, which they were known to do. The really good ones would seek out the operators and ask questions.

Back to new firearms owners.

Yeah, I see it all the time too, mostly on the forums. People who think that a 9mm PCC mousegun kicks horribly. Or that before even firing their new firearm that they need to bedeck it with all sorts of doo-dads. Like the .40/9mm question. I waiting for someone to try the 20 ga in a 12 ga chamber, or a .300BLK in a 5.56. The other day someone wrote that the spring behind the heavy bolt was only there to allow the bolt to pick up the next cartridge from the mag'. I suggested that they operate the firearm manually w/o the spring there and post from the hospital the result for us.

I'm thinkin' that lots of the new folks just shouldn't own firearms. They are just accidents waiting to happen. I wonder how many of them want the guns because of the insecurity of living where they live coupled with the actions of the anarchists, yet vote for more insanity by voting for the party of the insane.

Sometimes they can be taught, and actually demonstrate that they read and apply what they read, and those folks I'll help in a heartbeat. But others show up and because they saw John Wick think that just because they plunked down $ for what they were told was the latest whiz-bang firearm they too are instantly John Wick.

Here's what I mean.
https://youtu.be/CywFbSdMVx0

Sorry for the horrible "music", just remember that the "c" in rap is silent.

[10-x]

Goes to show that most folks growing up in town with no experience/ training as a kid with firearms is where we are. IIRC Ben Franklin said this country would be in danger when we are all crowded together in cities, become like Europe. Guess situation could be helped with the draft where all would get basic firearms training, Army and USMC at least. Grandson has made E-5 in Navy in less than 4 years, his firearms training in basic was a joke he said. He most like knows more than those “training”” recruits. Asked him about qualifying with pistol and M-4, said the Navy charged one $40 to qualify with pistol and $60 for M-4 and was after hours, what is wrong with the Navy???

[Larry Gibson]

BJK

That was an "impressive" video.......

Unfortunately I've seen it for real all too often....

[bedbugbilly]

I've worked with some good practical Engineers who had common sense and weren't afraid to get their hands dirty and I've known some who couldn't open a can of vegetables if they had to. It's that way in all professions. SADLY - it's is an issue with a lot of new gun owners who don't/won't take the time to READ and STUDY, take a class, etc. and LEARN. Most of us who re-load had at least the gumption to buy a book on re-loading and study it and then ask questions from someone who had the experience to know the answer - and many had someone who would show them how to do it and mentor them. I hate to knock young people and there are some good kids out there - but most grew up having to have "instant gratification" and for many of them, why study or read when you can take "short cuts". i.e. - just go out and buy a handgun or rifle and ammo because the law says you can and "go at it".

I have a friend who is a very technical savvy individual - a veteran - and Isay that because he is retired AF so had some gun training in the service. I love the guy dearly but I cannot believe some of the questions he has asked concerning "can I use this ammo in . . . . . ". Recently, he was asking me what shotgun to buy for he and his wife to have in the house for home defense. His wife is small and petite and I suggested either a .410 or a 20 gauge as she could handle either one. So . . he goes out and buys a 12 gauge that the length of pull was too long for the wife so he had to put a youth buttstock on it. He calls me up one day to tell me . . in a scared voice . . .that he was practicing loading in their bedroom and in the process, shot a hole through the ceiling! Friend or not, I chewed him a second one and told him that the next time he bought a new firearm, go to a range and learn how to SAFELY operate it and get help from a RO if needed. He did end up buying a .410 and it worked the best for his wife when they went out to a range

This is the same fellow who got some of his wife's .380 ACP mixed up with his 9mm rounds one time when we were shooting at a range. His Springfield 9mm did fire two rounds of the .380 and then he came to me as he couldn't figure out what the problem was.

Sometimes it's just plain scary and unfortunately, there will always be those who don't want to take the time to educate themselves no matter if it is concerning guns, woodworking equipment where fingers can easily be lost, metal working machinery, etc.

[JoeJames]

Just try to explain head spacing, and you might as well be opining on quantum mechanics.

[gbrown]

I was in my gunsmith's shop one day when a fellow came in with a cloth sack. He asked him what he would charge to put his pistol back together. The smith told him and said he was really busy and would get to it in about a week. He would give him a call when it was ready. Guy said fine, filled out a tag with name address, etc. and left. I nearly got a hernia holding back the laughter. It was funny, but sad. I was always told if you couldn't break down and clean a gun, you didn't need to own it. I also know of people who make good money cleaning others weapons. Feel the same way about that.

[BJK]

I see that with the 12ga choice quite alot too on the forums. The one I'm thinking of is an affordable, short, and lightweight KS7. Heck, shotguns are seen to not recoil in the movies so who can't handle it? Then they're looking for all sorts of magic to mitigate the recoil. Most wind up putting an in place recoil pad on, then a slip on over that.

Then there are handguns. Who doesn't want the smallest, lightest handgun available? But for a noob that sort of handgun is just too much of a handful if it's in a reasonable defensive caliber, that's a handgun for someone with lots of rounds sent downrange over the years.

Part of the problem could be the gun shops just interested in making a sale. A friend in Boulder was looking for firearms during the anarchist uprising. His son wound up buying a historical 1911 made the way they were in WW1 and as used through WW2. You know the one, it's the one with tiny useless sights. Why? Because the gun shop had it in the case and it's what his granddad carried on the bomber in WW2. About good for bad breath distances but not exactly great for a modern SD gun. I explained to the father That it was historical and not exactly a SD gun unless one wanted to get really close to a perp'. We do the best we can but sometimes folks do some really uneducated things.

My previously "death to firearms" SIL is getting a carry permit and I stressed to her to find someone in the know to help with handgun selection AFTER taking a course and such with an instructor who has guns for her to try. She swore to me that she understood. So she had her son, a cop in NJ and not a gun guy, to guide her before getting the training and trying various handguns. Now maybe the son knows a lot more about the subject than I think he does, but knowing his life growing up and the fact that the only training he got has been OJT, I very much doubt it.

[1I-Jack]

Goes to show that most folks growing up in town with no experience/ training as a kid with firearms is where we are. IIRC Ben Franklin said this country would be in danger when we are all crowded together in cities, become like Europe. Guess situation could be helped with the draft where all would get basic firearms training, Army and USMC at least. Grandson has made E-5 in Navy in less than 4 years, his firearms training in basic was a joke he said. He most like knows more than those “training”” recruits. Asked him about qualifying with pistol and M-4, said the Navy charged one $40 to qualify with pistol and $60 for M-4 and was after hours, what is wrong with the Navy???

Only people on the boat who had a gun were the topside watches (ie watch the people coming up the gangplank). They carried a .45 but weren't allowed to have a clip in gun. Things may have changed since I was in (but I doubt it).

[bpatterson84]

I mean, the obvious short answer is yes, you can shoot 9mm in a 40cal. Yall've never done that for fun? Seems as though velocity's a bit off published data hahaha!

[JoeJames]

I mean, the obvious short answer is yes, you can shoot 9mm in a 40cal. Yall've never done that for fun? Seems as though velocity's a bit off published data hahaha!Accuracy may drop off a little bit too. Not that that matters to the spray and pray force.

[Winger Ed.]

To listen to some here you would be surprised that an engineer could cast bullets and load ammo or even smith a gun.

I don't know about that, but from knowing a few, and a couple of relatives that are career engineers-
I have noticed they do see things differently.
One who is a life long friend and mechanical engineer is a big time reloader & shooter.
Several years ago, inspired by the M-249, he modified and made a working, semi-auto, AR upper that was belt fed.

This also reminds me of one of those semi-joke sort of things:

An optimist looks at a partial glass of water and says its half full.
A pessimist looks at it and says its half empty.
A engineer looks at it and says, "The glass is too big".

[Idaho45guy]

This also reminds me of one of those semi-joke sort of things:

An optimist looks at a partial glass of water and says its half full.
A pessimist looks at it and says its half empty.
A engineer looks at it and says, "The glass is too big".

Ha! I'm sharing that one!

[Winger Ed.]

Ha! I'm sharing that one!

You're more than welcome to it.

That, and a couple of others I try to spread around like Johnny Apple Seed did trees.

[Joe504]

I don't know about that, but from knowing a few, and a couple of relatives that are career engineers-
I have noticed they do see things differently.
One who is a life long friend and mechanical engineer is a big time reloader & shooter.
Several years ago, inspired by the M-249, he modified and made a working, semi-auto, AR upper that was belt fed.

This also reminds me of one of those semi-joke sort of things:

An optimist looks at a partial glass of water and says its half full.
A pessimist looks at it and says its half empty.
A engineer looks at it and says, "The glass is too big".Us reloaders look at it and say, Its refillable!

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[rockrat]

Us reloaders look at it and wonder what we could neck it to. Berdan or Boxer, and what powder would be suitable to reload it, along wondering what mould is available and what alloy we might use!!!

[Monobill]

Well said, very seldom is there one person responsible for a successful program or failure for that matter. Find a successful program and you find a cohesive team of hands on skilled tradesmen and engineers working together.

[dtknowles]

I don't know about that, but from knowing a few, and a couple of relatives that are career engineers-
I have noticed they do see things differently.
One who is a life long friend and mechanical engineer is a big time reloader & shooter.
Several years ago, inspired by the M-249, he modified and made a working, semi-auto, AR upper that was belt fed.

This also reminds me of one of those semi-joke sort of things:

An optimist looks at a partial glass of water and says its half full.
A pessimist looks at it and says its half empty.
A engineer looks at it and says, "The glass is too big".

I have a version of that that my step daughter had printed on a tee shirt for me.

An optimist says the glass is half full.
A pessimist says the glass is half empty.
An engineer says the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

Tim

[dbosman]

I hear, see, and agree. I beg all experienced loaders to plan extra patience for the next month as all the holiday newbies ask repetitive questions. Create a boiler plate text file of common responses. But... don't go on at length. To many are reading on phones that make longer - accurate posts, difficult to deal with.

[dverna]

As to engineers....

When I started, I wanted to design and build things. Told the Chief Engineer that when he asked me what I wanted to do with my career. He told me I would make a good living as an engineer but never get very far. He told me, you need to a good engineer but get out of engineering and into “management “.

It was good advice. But managing people, a division or company is not for everyone.

Those of you reporting on the incompetence of engineers are either too ignorant to know, or work for poorly run organizations. In general engineers are smarter, more motivated, and add more to the profitability of the enterprise. BTW, some people who call themselves engineers are not.

[Joe504]

I didnt want to devolve into a fight.

Please try to be civil guys.

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[megasupermagnum]

As to engineers....

When I started, I wanted to design and build things. Told the Chief Engineer that when he asked me what I wanted to do with my career. He told me I would make a good living as an engineer but never get very far. He told me, you need to a good engineer but get out of engineering and into “management “.

It was good advice. But managing people, a division or company is not for everyone.

Those of you reporting on the incompetence of engineers are either too ignorant to know, or work for poorly run organizations. In general engineers are smarter, more motivated, and add more to the profitability of the enterprise. BTW, some people who call themselves engineers are not.

In some ways, I feel bad for our engineers. They are tasked with making something specific, in a specific way, which they do. The problem is when it doesn't work, which it never does, that they are not the ones that have to fix it. I work with plenty of engineers, and they are generally smart people. Intelligence does not automatically translate into competence. It is all too often I'm handed some prints, a pile of materials, and told to make it work. Of course there is always something that doesn't fit right. I guess what I'm trying to say is that every place I've worked, there is always a huge disconnect between the departments. I've never seen an engineer on the floor trying to figure out why their design doesn't work. At best you see them wander out in their penny loafers, asking why it isn't done yet, they give you some fortune cookie advice, and off they go.

[monadnock#5]

Every place I worked at the engineers were not allowed to walk out into the factory unless being escorted by a maintenance mechanic or electrician. They may be smart in one way, but they are not smart enough to not step into a oncoming fork truck.

A year or so before I retired, my employer put up (loud, can't miss 'em style) surveillance cameras at every intersection negotiable by a fork truck. No more he said she said at the formal inquest, just "let's see the footage".

This is what every range that carries liability insurance will be forced to do, like it or don't.

[P Flados]

I've never seen an engineer on the floor trying to figure out why their design doesn't work.

I resemble the "the glass is twice as big as it needs to be" remark.

If you have worked in businesses where they let engineers get away with not getting out on the floor and figuring out their mistakes, I feel sorry for you. As previously noted any such example is the fault of management.

I retired after working 38 years at nuclear power plants. I dealt with lots of engineers and craft people. We had high standards, but still some are better than others. In a good working environment, all are held accountable to do a good job and if needed, held accountable to do the best they can at cleaning up any mess that they have created.

Under good management, engineering departments tend to deal with problem engineers. They fix (council, mentor, train, guide), weed out (get rid of) or reassign (put them where they add some value and do no harm) those that produce poor designs. In these kinds of workplaces, engineers tend to be valued as "problem solvers" and tend to be well liked by the craft.

Getting a BS in engineering is generally pretty tough and most graduates are capable of being "good" engineers. However, workplace practices can either help them develop, or push them in the wrong direction. I have seen examples of both.

[fixit]

I am one who has a gripe with bad engineers. Yes they are educated, motivated and may be smart, but I've worked with far too many that wouldn't listen to a word that an operator says. A good engineer is worth their weight in gold.... literally. A bad one is worse than an untrainable operator. I've worked with both, being in aerospace as an operator. My biggest problem with many engineers talk down to non engineers. I qualify this with the observation that some operators lack of intellect can try ones patience.

[SeabeeMan]

Goes to show that most folks growing up in town with no experience/ training as a kid with firearms is where we are. IIRC Ben Franklin said this country would be in danger when we are all crowded together in cities, become like Europe. Guess situation could be helped with the draft where all would get basic firearms training, Army and USMC at least. Grandson has made E-5 in Navy in less than 4 years, his firearms training in basic was a joke he said. He most like knows more than those “training”” recruits. Asked him about qualifying with pistol and M-4, said the Navy charged one $40 to qualify with pistol and $60 for M-4 and was after hours, what is wrong with the Navy???

When I went through Basic in 01, we didn't touch live rounds. Air powered 9mm and M16, hooked up to an air hose to give some recoil, and some sort of laser marksmanship device. This was then "tested" during Battle Stations in a boarding party repelling scenario. I can't speak for the fleet, but I can't imagine there is much qualification for most on ships beyond MA's and those associated with internal security.

On the dirt side...well, that's a bit of a different story, but it's still the same boot camp and A-school, which has nothing to do with weapons unless that is your specific rate.

[P Flados]

Us reloaders look at it and wonder what we could neck it to. Berdan or Boxer, and what powder would be suitable to reload it, along wondering what mould is available and what alloy we might use!!!

[smilie=l: :goodpost:.

And this engineer/reloader might even think: After necking it, I think I can make it work in an AR. And while I am at it, I should make a custom NLG mold that would do a much better job of getting this oddball to perform.

[kevin c]

I was in my gunsmith's shop one day when a fellow came in with a cloth sack. He asked him what he would charge to put his pistol back together. The smith told him and said he was really busy and would get to it in about a week. He would give him a call when it was ready. Guy said fine, filled out a tag with name address, etc. and left. I nearly got a hernia holding back the laughter. It was funny, but sad. I was always told if you couldn't break down and clean a gun, you didn't need to own it. I also know of people who make good money cleaning others weapons. Feel the same way about that.
Ha, I gotta confess I was one of those guys starting out.

My first pistol was a Italian made Beretta 92FS. I could field strip and clean it, no problem, even put it back together. But when I first detail stripped it, I had parts left over when I put it back together. This was back in the day when there were no such things as YouTube DIY videos and cameras in cell phones allowing photos of each step and part as its removed. Took me hours to figure out what I left out, where it belonged and how to put it back in (wrong tools), and the next time I took it in to a gunsmith. Once I got into shooting in a serious way, I learned to do all that myself, though I still don't do true smithing on my guns; nothing more than drop in parts. I'm definitely not mechanically inclined, and have nothing but respect for those who know this stuff from both the practical and theoretical sides, especially if they know their way around a machine shop.

Back on topic. My son's best friend, a financially strapped student, and his girlfriend recently bought their first gun from me. They were worried about crime and civil unrest where they lived, but found very little available and what was was unaffordable. A condition I made on the sale, which was a NIB pistol and at my cost, was that I would discuss responsible firearm ownership and the ramifications of using one in self defense, and that they would let me show them the basics, using my ammo. They were novices but were enthusiastic, attentive and were safe on the range and shot well. I'm satisfied they've started out solidly.

[dtknowles]

As to engineers....

When I started, I wanted to design and build things. Told the Chief Engineer that when he asked me what I wanted to do with my career. He told me I would make a good living as an engineer but never get very far. He told me, you need to a good engineer but get out of engineering and into “management “.

It was good advice. But managing people, a division or company is not for everyone.

Those of you reporting on the incompetence of engineers are either too ignorant to know, or work for poorly run organizations. In general engineers are smarter, more motivated, and add more to the profitability of the enterprise. BTW, some people who call themselves engineers are not.

You seem to understand this quite well. I resisted being promoted into management for a decade. I told them I did not want a promotion I wanted good work. I did not want to manage more than just a few team members not some department or division. I got my way for that decade but finally they promoted me to the point where it was not even more than passingly familiar with our designs and not at all familiar with our production lines. I was glad when we had to downsize and I got laid-off with a sort of silver parachute. I thought I would retire. I could have. Money was not a problem.

A person I worked with started his own company and asked if I would help him start it up. It turned out to be awesome. We are small enough that I know just about everything that is going on. I have my hands on almost all the knobs. The designs are in a big way my designs. I love this job and would do it for free.

Tim

[dtknowles]

In some ways, I feel bad for our engineers. They are tasked with making something specific, in a specific way, which they do. The problem is when it doesn't work, which it never does, that they are not the ones that have to fix it. I work with plenty of engineers, and they are generally smart people. Intelligence does not automatically translate into competence. It is all too often I'm handed some prints, a pile of materials, and told to make it work. Of course there is always something that doesn't fit right. I guess what I'm trying to say is that every place I've worked, there is always a huge disconnect between the departments. I've never seen an engineer on the floor trying to figure out why their design doesn't work. At best you see them wander out in their penny loafers, asking why it isn't done yet, they give you some fortune cookie advice, and off they go.

Why would an engineer be asking "why it isn't done yet" that is what managers do. We have a process for designs that don't work. Yes, many times designs don't work. The designer, the manufacturing engineer and quality can redline the drawings if they agree on the change.

Those three organization along with Systems Engineering, the Program Manager and the Chief Engineer had to agree to the drawing before it was released for production. Yes, sometimes those six people will sign a drawing that is wrong but most often it is something small.

Oh, we never hand someone a print and materials and tell someone to make it work. They are handed a work order with fairly detailed instructions and the drawing with what materials to draw, what tools to use and feeds, speeds, voltages, temperature, etc. all to be verified by the tech and quality. Use only calibrated tools and be certified in the required processes. Every work step you perform you buy with an ink stamp with your number and code. If quality is required they stamp it too. If you can't do a work step as written or don't understand what is written. Get the manufacturing engineer (ME) to look at it. It there is a problem the ME will get the Designer to address it. Definitely do not press ahead and build scrap. When you build things that people will be flying on, it has to be right. If you build things that take people into outer space your mistakes make the national news. A lot of this kind of process control works well in almost every industry, what is the point in making, for instance, defective guns.

Tim

[megasupermagnum]

Why would an engineer be asking "why it isn't done yet" that is what managers do. We have a process for designs that don't work. Yes, many times designs don't work. The designer, the manufacturing engineer and quality can redline the drawings if they agree on the change.

Those three organization along with Systems Engineering, the Program Manager and the Chief Engineer had to agree to the drawing before it was released for production. Yes, sometimes those six people will sign a drawing that is wrong but most often it is something small.

Oh, we never hand someone a print and materials and tell someone to make it work. They are handed a work order with fairly detailed instructions and the drawing with what materials to draw, what tools to use and feeds, speeds, voltages, temperature, etc. all to be verified by the tech and quality. Use only calibrated tools and be certified in the required processes. Every work step you perform you buy with an ink stamp with your number and code. If quality is required they stamp it too. If you can't do a work step as written or don't understand what is written. Get the manufacturing engineer (ME) to look at it. It there is a problem the ME will get the Designer to address it. Definitely do not press ahead and build scrap. When you build things that people will be flying on, it has to be right. If you build things that take people into outer space your mistakes make the national news. A lot of this kind of process control works well in almost every industry, what is the point in making, for instance, defective guns.

Tim

That's a good question. I've never worked in engineering, but there does not seem to be any kind of structure like you describe. There is a manager, otherwise it is a crew of engineers who kind of do their own thing. For all I know there are teams that work on large projects, but for the most part we are talking about things like tooling (currently diecasting and CNC), machine parts, and plant layout. That's always a good one, when a spot is marked for a machine that needs water, and they put it right on top of a drain so you can't use it. I'm a technician, I'll build, fabricate, install machinery, etc. I've got a background in automation, so also deal with that. I love working with robots. Where I deal with engineers mostly will be "upgrades" to existing machines. A recent one was to fabricate and install an entire door on a Frech diecasting machine. A lot of the parts came pre-made. The problem being none of it fit together. By the time I was done with all the shimming, drilling, swearing, bleeding, I could have just build the thing from scratch... and then the roller I said looked too weak of a design fell apart on an operator a month later. Thankfully he was not hurt.

Sorry to bash engineers. We have to blame someone when we need that unreachable electrical plug, don't we?

[country gent]

Back to the original post if new shooters. They need to be brought up to speed quickly and politely on safety and handling. I have worked a few beginners High power matches. Even after the 4 hours classroom Saturday morning there were several that would have a problem or question on the line with out thinking they would turn to get the coaches attention and the rifle would turn with them pointing down the line or behind it. Getting them to remember whats in their hands 100% of the time is needed. Safety needs to be impressed on them.

As to engineers Ive worked with more very good ones than bad ones. Being a tool and die maker I worked closely with them at times on problems. Learned from them and they from me. I enjoyed the R&D work and new line set ups. But I did take one to the door looked out and ask him where his train was teasing him

[dtknowles]

That's a good question. I've never worked in engineering, but there does not seem to be any kind of structure like you describe. There is a manager, otherwise it is a crew of engineers who kind of do their own thing. For all I know there are teams that work on large projects, but for the most part we are talking about things like tooling (currently diecasting and CNC), machine parts, and plant layout. That's always a good one, when a spot is marked for a machine that needs water, and they put it right on top of a drain so you can't use it. I'm a technician, I'll build, fabricate, install machinery, etc. I've got a background in automation, so also deal with that. I love working with robots. Where I deal with engineers mostly will be "upgrades" to existing machines. A recent one was to fabricate and install an entire door on a Frech diecasting machine. A lot of the parts came pre-made. The problem being none of it fit together. By the time I was done with all the shimming, drilling, swearing, bleeding, I could have just build the thing from scratch... and then the roller I said looked too weak of a design fell apart on an operator a month later. Thankfully he was not hurt.

Sorry to bash engineers. We have to blame someone when we need that unreachable electrical plug, don't we?

Engineers need bashing. Seriously, when an engineer does a bad job, makes a bad design, does not listen to the users, etc. someone needs to bash them up side of their head. That actually is one of my jobs. You see I back into my chief engineer job. I started as a field engineer, you know the guy at the end of the line dealing with all the f ups that got thru to the floor or field. I was a thousand miles from the factory testing the products that got delivered. Now I am at the other end telling the designer to not only think of the end users but the guys building the products. Not just think about them, ask them, listen to them, I will say this again but really again is not enough. Listen to the mechanics and end users. Listen, don't talk, listen, comprehend. Even if the person is not very well spoken, try and figure out what they are trying to tell you because they would not be trying to tell you something if everything was wonderful.

Tim

[rbuck351]

As an auto mechanic for quite a few years, I wish every engineer that designed a part on a car had to remove and replace that part on the car about ten times. Spark plug placement on some of the newer Ford pickups are just one example of many that should be redesigned. IIRC the old Chevy Monza had one plug behind the steering box and the motor mounts had to be disconnected to lift the engine to replace one of the spark plugs. Bad engineering. There many very good design engineers but there are some that should have to work on the things they design. That might teach them something.

[Thumbcocker]

I agree generally that you should be able to take down any gun you own, although, my dad decided to detail strip his nylon 66. (Despite what the manual said). Made Mom take it to 2 gunshops in a shoebox and a sock. Took 2 very gunny guys to get it back together.

[JoeJames]

I agree generally that you should be able to take down any gun you own, although, my dad decided to detail strip his nylon 66. (Despite what the manual said). Made Mom take it to 2 gunshops in a shoebox and a sock. Took 2 very gunny guys to get it back together.Cousin who had a pawn shop/gun shop said last weekend that the absolute worst (as far as putting it back together firearm) he ever took down and put back together was the Nylon 66.

[farmbif]

I sure aint no engineer, but I think we are in for a whole new crop of gun owners like the guy who bough 357 sig ammo thinking they would fit in his new 357 magnum

[Idaho45guy]

IIRC the old Chevy Monza had one plug behind the steering box and the motor mounts had to be disconnected to lift the engine to replace one of the spark plugs. Bad engineering. There many very good design engineers but there are some that should have to work on the things they design. That might teach them something.

I had a `68 Ford Ranchero GT with the 390 V8 that I had to disconnect the driver's side motor mount and lift the motor with a jack in order to get to the back spark plug.

And don't get me started on changing out the heater core on a `65 GTO, or a 90's T-bird...

Bought a new 2014 Ram pickup and in order to change the headlight bulb, you had to remove the tires and most of the grille to get to it. Been pleasantly surprised when working on my 2019 Toyota 4Runner so far. Just maintenance stuff and some suspension mods, but it's all been pretty easy and engineered very well.

[StuBach]

I sure aint no engineer, but I think we are in for a whole new crop of gun owners like the guy who bough 357 sig ammo thinking they would fit in his new 357 magnum

I hate to admit this but I was that guy many years ago....

Made that exact mistake in a panic buying mode. Box sat on the shelf for years till I came across a trade that worked to my advantage so it ended up a good thing.

Not all of these new gun owners will be true shooters as we like to think of ourselves, but many will be so let’s have patience while they work through the headaches of new gun ownership. They will learn, as we all did once, to appreciate this sport and we should help them do so safely if we can.

For all those who don’t continue down the path, just means good deals on lightly used firearms in a few years.[emoji1787]

[kevin c]

Y'know, thinking on it, six or seven million new NRA members, ones who vote, isn't a bad thing from a 2A point of view.

Just saying...

[DW475]

More 2A supporters is a bonus in my mind and with the demand for supplies hopefully the manufactures are expanding again to get things back on the shelves.

[Idaho45guy]

Y'know, thinking on it, six or seven million new NRA members, ones who vote, isn't a bad thing from a 2A point of view.

Just saying...

Seeing how there are only 5 million current NRA members, and about 72 million gun owners in America, I don't see the NRA getting much of a bump in membership. Especially with Wayne still at the helm. He has poisoned the NRA's image with his lavish lifestyle.

[Thumbcocker]

I say if they are buying guns and asking for help, help them. Anybody burning powder is a positive thing. I have taught liberal democrats to shoot and handle guns safely. Didn't talk politics just covered the basics. Seeing the mile wide smile on a female defense lawyer's face as she held a 1911 in one hand and a target with a very respectable group in the other was satisfying. In her line of work home defense is a distinct possibility.

My position is the more people shooting safely the better. I had basically no instruction on hand guns. I was taught basic safety by family but we need to remember that as the world urbanizes more fewer and fewer folks have family to teach them. If someone genuinely wants to learn teach them. Have some patience. I'm willing to bet none of us entered this world knowing breathing, sights, stance, and trigger control. We had to be taught. Time to pay back those who endured our "noob" questions and gave us their time (and often ammo) for the good of the shooting community.

[JoeJames]

I hate to admit this but I was that guy many years ago....

Made that exact mistake in a panic buying mode. Box sat on the shelf for years till I came across a trade that worked to my advantage so it ended up a good thing.

Not all of these new gun owners will be true shooters as we like to think of ourselves, but many will be so let’s have patience while they work through the headaches of new gun ownership. They will learn, as we all did once, to appreciate this sport and we should help them do so safely if we can.

For all those who don’t continue down the path, just means good deals on lightly used firearms in a few years.[emoji1787]That is a very good point. Some of y'all may remember the stampede to buy S&W Model 29's after the Dirty Harry movies came out. There were good deals to be had after some of the buyers tried a few factory loads. Sometimes you could get it, and a box of factory ammo with 44 rounds left in the box.

[toallmy]

Help the new firearm owners every chance you get it will strengthen the 2 amendment . There are a lot of people that fear the unknown , and to them guns are a unknown , being completely comfortable around firearms comes from being around firearms . Be safe

[WheelgunConvert]

I have found it curious that 2A rights organizations do not start and end every public comment with the 3 basic safety rules. I have also noticed that more times than not range facilities do not have the basic safety rules posted.

A simple repeating message has incredible sticking power. Anyone remember a glove “that just doesn’t fit “?

[Idaho45guy]

Teaching leftists to shoot is like teaching Middle Eastern students to fly...

Maybe. Possibly.

[Wayne Smith]

Teaching leftists to shoot is like teaching Middle Eastern students to fly...

Maybe. Possibly.
Not at all. The leftist that wants to learn to shoot is just as basically human and has a very similar value system as you. The Middle Eastern culture is very different as is the value system. No comparison.

[TonyR]

Had the same thing happen here, guy wondering if he’d be ok shooting 9mm out of a .380


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[David2011]

Those of you reporting on the incompetence of engineers are either too ignorant to know, or work for poorly run organizations. In general engineers are smarter, more motivated, and add more to the profitability of the enterprise. BTW, some people who call themselves engineers are not.

I’ve known some impressive engineers. Most were/are model airplane guys that fly at a NASA facility; bona fide rocket scientists and they knew how to do “stuff.” One was responsible for putting the Shuttle on the 747.

I was in corporate IT before retiring. Most of our “engineers” were college graduates that had engineering degrees but were not legit engineers by law, skills or snap but they had the arrogance of a surgeon and considered themselves engineers. They were the biggest problem children for IT. Thought they knew it all including how to make their computers “better.” I thought my peers were, for the most part, far smarter and more capable than the imitation engineers.

[Stephen Cohen]

The reason we see such silly questions is Youtube is awash with morons who show such stupid practices like shooting 50 cal through 12 gauge shotguns,444 Marlin through 410 shotguns, encasing high point pistols in concrete, this caliber versus that caliber versus cinder blocks. If this is their entry to firearms ownership I see many more of these questions and many more trips to the ER. I am not a fan of restrictive gun laws but if, an Australian was to put such stupidity online he or she would loose there firearms and ability to own them, I for one would actually agree with this action being taken by authorities as morons do non of us any favors. Regards Stephen

[David2011]

I had a `68 Ford Ranchero GT with the 390 V8 that I had to disconnect the driver's side motor mount and lift the motor with a jack in order to get to the back spark plug.



I broke a 1/2" Craftsman wiggle joint taking that spark plug out in my '67 Mustang. Not only was it hard to get to, but the 390 grabbed onto the plugs and didn't want to let them go.

[Sleeping Dog]

We can all complain about what is right or wrong about how kids are brought up, where they learn what they learn and whatever.

However, that doesn't matter. We take people where they are, not where we'd like them to be.

Do we throw up our hands and roll our eyes at the basic question? Or do we help without judgement?

Asking if a 9mm could go into a 40 isn't a stupid question. He is posing a question because he can tell there must be an important difference between the two calibers but isn't able to see why. He is trying to learn from the experience of others rather than try something with a deadly device.

Those of us who really get into firearms (or any subject) tend to forget just how much there is to learn. When you start, you just want the basics -- you know, like what you'd get from old timer that has been shooting forever. They tell you what is the most important and guide you to basic competency.

[mozeppa]

my uncle was in the airforce 20+ years and retired....was in law enforcement in 3 different cities and retired.

to this day he calls magazines "clips"


my wife accidently loaded 9mm cartridges into a .40 magazine...and yes they will shoot. sounds really weird when they go off and
splits the case most every time due to it being blown out to chamber dimensions. she was sent to re-training.

[pastera]

As an auto mechanic for quite a few years, I wish every engineer that designed a part on a car had to remove and replace that part on the car about ten times. Spark plug placement on some of the newer Ford pickups are just one example of many that should be redesigned. IIRC the old Chevy Monza had one plug behind the steering box and the motor mounts had to be disconnected to lift the engine to replace one of the spark plugs. Bad engineering. There many very good design engineers but there are some that should have to work on the things they design. That might teach them something.

Engineers design to a specification. What you have an issue with is the people creating the requirements driving those specifications, not the guy designing the stuff.

Those spark plug locations are designed to maximise combustion efficiency while still allowing ease of manufacturing and assembly.
The combustion efficiency is derived from the need to pass emissions and the ease of manufacture is derived from the need to lower costs enough to entice people to buy the car.
Repair costs are not a high priority when defining the requirements simply because the majority of people don't buy cars with an eye on repair costs.

A big problem with engineering today is that kids are told they need a degree but never get any real information on what that means. Then they are not given any hands on training in school. At home, parents are the products of the same schools that are failing the current generation so they can't help the kids take things apart to see how they work or what broke when things don't work. Once the get to the university, they get instruction from people who haven't been in industry for decades if ever. Then in school they don't get asked to actually build a working product from start to finish in order to learn not to push problems downstream.

[thxmrgarand]

We will very much need all these new gun owners on board if the GA election result today flips the US Senate to be in lockstep with the income White House. I am heartened to see a news story that says the new US House member from Rifle, CO is already pushing back against the anti-gun crowd. I can only hope that the new White House will have its hands so full that its attention will be diverted from messing with law-abiding gun owners. My wife and I are scheduled to take the (first) Red Chinese flu shot later this morning.

[rockrat]

I live in Boeberts district. Met her when she was in a rally here in town. Let me tell you, that is some feisty lady. She has more stones than most of the people on capitol hill. Makes me think of a Tom Petty song "I won't back down". She will give the left heartburn, I hope(and possibly some on the right!!)

[fcvan]

Wow, lots of comments about engineers, some not so flattering. Sure, we have come across folks with degrees and lacking common sense. My early work experience was working construction with my Dad. A high school graduate, he had more of a solid background in structural engineering due to hands-on experience. I overheard the County Inspector instructing a new hire inspector telling the young man 'if you see this man's name on the inspection/permit, and he says the job will be ready before pouring concrete, sign it off, it will be ready.' Then my Dad went to the head inspector with a design modification that would make the dwelling more structurally sound for SO CA seismic requirements. Dad sketched a crude drawing. The inspector said 'have the architect make the changes, and get it over that day.' We poured the following morning at 6AM.

First year of College, I studied Business Administration and Human Relations. Second year of college was nights as I had taken a job in aerospace/military defense contract. The engineers listened to and answered my questions. The folks running my section were lab rats who promoted, but were not managers, certainly not founded in supervision.

I was invited to a division meeting where employees were encouraged to ask good questions. I described a quality control and review process to increase accountability. I explained that this was straight of of textbook in my field of study. I was asked to bring in my textbooks. I was allowed to institute the quality control review mechanism in my area with full support of the engineers.

One day, while going through the Salad Bar line, someone said 'hello Frank.' It was my next door neighbor's Dad, and the other fellow was the Father of a girl I knew from Church and High School. Both PhD's, both Division heads. I said, "I didn't know you guys worked here." I was told "We know you are here, you're making a name for yourself." Both tried to head hunt for me to join their research and development labs, my division manager wouldn't let me transfer. I left the company after a year, married, moved to the Central Valley, at bought my fist house right after I turned 20.

I later went into Law Enforcement, continued study at night, shifting from Business Admin to Admin of justice. My wife wanted me to get a law degree, I didn't want to become one of 'those people.' I was constantly being assigned to the District Attorney's Office for homicides, attempted homicides, weapons, and dope cases.

Law enforcement is a business just like medicine and education. I worked with and for folks who had no more education than I did, but had no practical application of the paper they earned. The folks I worked with, I never said worked for me, as I had a team who trusted my leadership. I have always said some folks demand respect because of the rank they had attained, and those who commanded respect because of their character.

I will never forget the engineers who took time to answer questions from an 18 year old kid, I learned to respect those persons of character. I also learned to be wary of those who earned their rank or position, never did anything with their knowledge and experience, and had no common sense. Common sense is far too often an uncommon virtue. Rant off.

[farmbif]

I have patience but sure am glad I have 200 yard pasture out back and don't have to go to public range to shoot. hate to say it but there are an awful lot of new gun owners who watched a few videos on youtube and are probably down right scary at public range.
grand opportunity for NRA to get these new folks involved in shooting safety, 2a rights, and other instructional programs.

[Blanket]

what a lot of us do not think about but a bunch of those new owners helped elect the anti gun folks thinking it did not apply to them

[john.k]

And the same people who will store the new gun in a kitchen drawer,have an accidental discharge just miss a child,and spend the next ten years cursing guns to the media and anyone will listen........Have any of you seen a new gunowner not pick the gun up with a finger on the trigger,and start waving it about.?

[WRideout]

A theoretical engineering professor is a scientist not an engineer. A professor of engineer is a teacher not an engineer unless they worked as an engineer before they went off to teach. If they never left the university they are probably not an engineer. I got my degree from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University. Most of my engineering professors worked in industry before they came to the school to teach. They had a lot of practical experience.

To listen to some here you would be surprised that an engineer could cast bullets and load ammo or even smith a gun.

Tim

I worked on the cleanup program at Oak Ridge, TN in the 90's; home of the first research site for developing the atom bomb in 1943. It was all done in secret and went on for decades. When I observed how they handled their environmental issues, I came to the conclusion that I would never send a scientist to the store for a loaf of bread. You just don't know what you might get.

BTW: I have a degree in the biological sciences.

Wayne

[gbrown]

I was just on Ebay, just trolling around and looking what was going on with reloading equipment. Went to Lee reloading and was amazed at the bids and prices on the whack a mold sets were going for and the number of bids, especially for pistol calibers. I rarely look at Lee products, so I don't know how long this has been the trend. I would attribute this to new gun owners and the lack of ammunition availability.