First 9 mm (45/snob😇)

[bronte454]

Ok so I decided to get a 9mm just in case world decides to go to 💩. Very possible the way things are going . Apparently everyone else in the nation has gotten a 9 this year . I can’t believe Lee molds are going for over a $130.00 bucks on flea bay. So I’ve got this idea of using the MP-360640-140 grain . I’ve been searching and reading for an hr and only found 3 short discussions about this bullet and 1 that said the nose is too long for 9mm . I’ve got a 1911 Armscor Rock Island. Any body have experience with this boolit with 9mm . Thank you gentlemen for your knowledge and experience.

[1hole]

Why Bronte, how could you even suggest that the vaunted little 9mm (which is after all, just a ++P loaded .38 Special with light-for-caliber bullets) isn't the greatest thing since boiled peanuts? Well, I would note that the "double tap" idea to keep 'em down originated with the marvelous 9mm, not the tired ol' .45 ACP. ;)

I'm in the same leaky boat with you about a Lee 9mm six hole mold to load for a mean daughter's little crunchy ticker tho. But, even for her, I ain't paying current prices.

I'll keep watching while hoarder sellers happily get richer for a spell; it WILL end eventually.

[fredj338]

I have loaded 165gr in 9mm so I am not sure what too long means. My 147gr bullet is a Saeco #910. Its a full RN with a cutting shoulder. I Load it to 1.135 & it fits any 9mm I have, including a Springfield loaded match bbl.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You turned your back on the .45 ACP? We'll try to forgive you....maybe....someday. ;)

That is a terrible price to have to pay for a 9mm mold. I have an alternative suggestion for you, and that is to check out the offerings of one of our vendors, Casting Machine. I've ordered several times from him with great satisfaction, reasonable prices, good product. No--I'm not getting a kickback!

DG

[bangerjim]

Of the 6+ million new guns sold in recent months.........perhaps 75% of them were 9mm Glocks or similar semi's! 9mm is OK but not my favorite to load for. OAL is rather picky. I prefer 38/44/45LC loading.

I have several 9's including an M1 Carbine that uses Beretta mags for 9mm...Excellent performing rifle! Nice to shoot 50 rounds without reloading.

Keep looking,. Decent prices will eventually come back. I have 7 different 9mm molds and did not realize I was sitting on a treasure trove! 4 of them are 5&6 cavity brass - one is HP. Bought them back when prices were NOT at all crazy.

Hope you have primers, also! Those can be found on the same LGS shelf as Hen's Teeth.



Good luck.

Banger :guntootsmiley:

[kevin c]

I have many fellow action pistoleers who use 9mm in 1911/2011 platforms. Just about all of them load long, and apparently not just because they need more of the slow powders preferred for working their compensators, but because they feed better (something about magazine/ramp/cartridge feeding angle and break over). So, maybe load a few dummy cartridges and see?

[sigep1764]

I have a hp mold from NOE that tosses 4 boolits per pour for less than that! Check out the Elco boolit mold from NOE and from Accurate the 358 120B. Both are designed for modern 9mm barrels with short to no throats/leades.

[bangerjim]

I have many fellow action pistoleers who use 9mm in 1911/2011 platforms. Just about all of them load long, and apparently not just because they need more of the slow powders preferred for working their compensators, but because they feed better (something about magazine/ramp/cartridge feeding angle and break over). So, maybe load a few dummy cartridges and see?

Dummy loads are a VERY good idea! I have at least SIX dummies for each boolit design, weight, and cal I load for. I keep them as references for the next time I load. They have been proven to cycle/work in my guns and make good test models for new REAL loads I am doing.

[DHDeal]

The 1911 9mm magazine will hold a long OAL, but your barrel may not. If you already have the mold and some bullets make up some dummies as suggested in earlier posts. Not very familar with that particular -640 and don't know if you have the GC design or not. 140 ish grain bullets in a 9mm are very common so thats not an issue. Seat that thing right up to the front of the crimp groove and see. Cast some with the large pin and let her eat.

I have and am not ashamed to shoot a pair of 2011's. My 3 gun 2011 can get real close to the same accuracy as any of my Freedom Arms 83's (at least to 50 yards). It's an awesome pipsqueek of a caliber and my 45's know it....

[Hanzy4200]

Good on you for looking at the higher end molds. I could never understand why someone would drop $200 on a Lee mold on Ebay. You could take half that and get a FAR superior quality mold from Accurate or MP. People and their general stupidity never cease to amaze me. Just my opinion, but if you are new to toying with the 9MM you might be better off starting out on a more conventional design. 9MM can be a real PITA if you're cutting your teeth.

[mdi]

I was sorta "anti-nine" for quite a while as I have 38/375s and 45 ACPs. But I broke down about 22 years ago and got a plastic wonder 9. I won't own a gun I can't cast for (except rimfires) so I tried a Lee 125 RF in my 9mm. I have been casting and shooting this bullet in 38 Specials and 357 Magnums for years and I just size it to .357" and so far it has worked in 4, 9mm pistols. With proper size and a decent lube I get very little (no) leading and good accuracy with my Lyman #2 or my 12 BHN "Mystery Metal" alloy....

[Petrol & Powder]

OK, So avoiding all of the caliber war baiting............

The 9mm Luger, AKA 9mm Parabellum, AKA 9 x 19 NATO; has been with us since the early 1900's (sort of like the 45 ACP ;) )
A huge portion of the world thinks it's a fine cartridge, capable of doing what it was designed to do.

There are large numbers of Americans that seem to believe the 9mm Luger will not penetrate a sheet of typing paper and that its effective power is somewhere slightly above a 22 short and below the 25 ACP.

The 9mm does its best work with bullets in the weight range of 115-125 grains. While heavy for caliber bullets can be accurate in a 9mm pistol, the reduced velocity robs the bullet of its terminal performance.
Bullets of 145grs+ turn the 9mm Luger into a semi-auto, high capacity - 38 Special. As much as I love and respect the 38 Special, I select a 9mm pistol to do something else.

The 9mm Luger is a high pressure cartridge and the case capacity is geared towards a narrow window of projectile weights. The overall length of the cartridge is limited by the magazine length and other factors.
So you can't seat a heavy bullet deep in the casing without driving the pressure into dangerous territory and you can't seat the bullet long and still have a cartridge that will feed & function in the pistol.

Now, people will often point to the accuracy that can be obtained from "heavy for caliber" 9mm bullets and there's no doubt that some of those cartridges will produce small groups. However, what you have made is basically a rimless 38 Special target round.

SO, hunker down in the tall grass. Wait for the panic to be over. And when the time is right - acquire the appropriate bullets or bullet molds.

[oldhenry]

I "poo-pooed" the 9mm for years & was a .45 man that occasionally shot one of my .357 revolvers (even some with .38 spec. loads). I'll never forget the look on Tom Campbell's face @ the '81 IPSC nationals (he was S&W's "hired gun") when he was eliminated from the "shoot-off" because his "9" would not put the Pepper Poppers down with the authority of the .45 ACP that his competitors were using. I even remember that he was said to comment that he would return next year with a .45.

Well 2 yrs. ago I admit to buying a SR1911 Officer Model in 9X19 (at least give me credit for the 1911 platform instead of a plastic gun). Reloading for the 9 proved to more difficult than the .45, but with help from forum members I overcame the problems. I found that the important factors are: 1. brass selection (F.C. & Blazer best & REM & WIN OK). Weed out any import stuff with the inside "step". Most of the other stuff is Ok but requires special attention to primer pockets. 2. is COAL. I found that anything close to 1.1 feeds best.

Important note: the SR1911 is throated from the factory. You may need to get DougGuy on this forum to throat your bbl. to get the OAL that will feed.

I have 3 9mm molds: Lee 125RN, MP-115 (a RN) & MP-359-130. Hands down the MP-359-130 is my favorite. With my alloy it weighs 136gr.(lubed & sized). This same mold in a HP is reported to weigh 125gr.. This mold is an 8 cav. in solid & 4 cav. in HP. To be fair the other 2 molds are OK: I just like the #359-130.

I hate to break the news to you: but, you're going to end up liking that "9". As of today, only my closest friend know that I own & shoot a 9X19.

[Petrol & Powder]

" ....As of today, only my closest friend know that I own & shoot a 9X19." :wink:
Oldhenry, Your secret is safe with us :bigsmyl2:

The 9mm Luger was designed around 1901 and introduced in 1902 (a year or two before the 45 ACP design was finalized)
In its European form, the 9mm is a very respectable cartridge.

I always felt that the 9mm suffered from the "it's not American" attitude (or more likely "it anit 'Mercan")

The 9mm was accepted and widely adopted throughout the world. That in itself doesn't mean much. I don't think we need to be like the rest of the world but I do think that fact is at least worth noting.

Prior to the "Wonder Nine" craze, the 9mm was known in the U.S.A. but it hadn't broken through the acceptance barrier. The Wonder Nine era did great things for the popularity of the 9mm cartridge and horrible things for the image of the 9mm cartridge.

A 120-125 grain bullet travelling around 1200 fps is a respectable round.

[onelight]

I still view the 9mm as a high capacity 38 special and it was not as good until we got modern bullets that had a reasonable chance of expansion . But with ball they both make a .35 caliber hole in what they hit and as defensive rounds with no expansion will probably shoot in and out of a bad guy .

[Sailormilan2]

If you want a heavy 9mm, look for the Saeco 383 SWC/TC style bullet. Mine casts at about 145 gr, and much of it's weight is out front, so it doesn't intrude on powder space. However, good luck finding a Saeco mold. There's been a group buy trying together off the ground for Mihec to make one(I would love an 8 cavity aluminum). This bullet has become my go to for my 38 Supers. I agree with Petrol & Powder, in that the 9mm works best with lighter bullets in the 115 gr to 125 gr range.
Left to right. Lyman 356402(old 9mm favorite), Mihec copy of the HG 275, Saeco 383.

[bronte454]

Thank you gentlemen wow I never expected such a response. I guess I left a few details out . I’ve been collecting and casting for about 40 yrs. I’ve got about 60 ideal / Lyman molds 20 or so RCBS . A few Cramers , Lee’s , LBT , NEI , and a few others that my brain can’t recall right now . I’ve been buying a couple NOE’S and about 28-30 MP-molds . I’ve got handguns in 22 Hornet 30 carbine , 32 H & R , 32-20 , 357 mag and Maximum , 375 Raptor , 41 , 44 , 45 . I admit my addiction but in my defense it’s only a small addiction �� . Ive been collecting primers and powders since well into the last century. I’ve got a long slide Armscor 1911 in 45. I e got my carry gun in a 1911 45 Para Ordnance Warthog double stack that is fat because it will eat any and everything I feed it . My 357 mag molds the lightest I have is 160 grain . So I was looking at the 38/357 MP- mold because he’s got it or at least he did have it . I do admit I like the Hollow point molds . Soft tissue I want upset . I have always gone heavy for caliber plus a soft lead recipe for hollow points usually act better at the 1000 FPS loading . I can understand the 9 being built for speed with 115-125 Grn “Bullets” . When I’ve been asked my opinion about 9mm or 45 (DPS friend in Tx) or anyone else . Get Nolan Ryan out there with his fast ball and let him throw it at you . That’s the 9mm it’s GONNA hurt but you can take it no worse for wear . Now let Nolan Ryan throw a cinder block at you . You’re going to have a REALLY bad day . The 9mm I bought is an Armscor double stack 1911/5” target model that came with a 22TCM barrel . I recon if he still has it I’m gonna order it and hope for the best . I do agree with test rounds to try fit and function and play with seating depth but kinda hard when you don’t have it yet . I greatly appreciate y’all’s input and attention to detail. I’ve gotten to where I enjoy the casting more than the shooting. Never thought I would say that.

[bronte454]

Sorry for late reply , family stuff HAPPENED. Again thank y’all very much.

[Petrol & Powder]

................Get Nolan Ryan out there with his fast ball and let him throw it at you . That’s the 9mm it’s GONNA hurt but you can take it no worse for wear . Now let Nolan Ryan throw a cinder block at you . You’re going to have a REALLY bad day ........

Let's give this a little better context.

Let's say the baseball thrown by Nolan Ryan in the 9mm and a Duck Pin bowling ball (not a cinder block) is the 45 ACP equivalent.

Nolan Ryan can impart the same force to both projectiles. One projectile is smaller in diameter and has less mass (the baseball or 9mm bullet) and the other projectile has a larger diameter and more mass (the Duck pin ball or 45 ACP bullet). Now with those parameters, both objects will have the same force applied to them but the lighter object will have a greater velocity.
Given those parameters, I would submit to you that the baseball would do more harm when it reached you simply because it would have much greater velocity to start with.

HOWEVER, that is a faulty analogy between 9mm and 45 ACP.
Those two projectiles do NOT start with the same force applied to them. The 230 gr. 45 ACP bullet weighs twice as much as the 115 gr. 9mm bullet but the 45 ACP is subjected to a maximum of 21,000 psi and the 9mm is subjected to a max of 35,000 psi.
So while the average 45 ACP weighs twice as much as the average 9mm, the pressures are different but the resulting velocities are not linear.
Kinetic energy = 1/2 mass x velocity squared.
So we cannot directly extrapolate the 230 gr 45 ACP bullet to the 115 gr 9mm bullet because we are not dealing with a simple linear equation. Not only is the mass different by roughly half (230 grains verses 115 grains) the velocities are different by significant margins (850 fps v. 1200 fps - which makes sense when we consider the KE=1/2MV squared formula). Velocity is squared in that formula so the impact of velocity on kinetic energy isn't simply a linear increase in energy.

SO - We are NOT dealing with a baseball and a cinder block thrown by Nolan Ryan.
We are dealing with two different projectiles, driven by TWO different forces.

This is why caliber wars on internet forums are so convoluted. We are never dealing with two objects subjected to the exact same force. We are dealing with: mass, velocity (SQUARED), pressure, bullet diameter, bullet hardness, frontal area, expansion and WHO KNOWS what other variables?

There is the light & fast camp
and
There is the heavy & slow camp

No one wins caliber wars.

[DHDeal]

Ahh contraire, I win (and probably many of us do).... We that don't have any real preference and have both the large and the small, the big and the little, and the fast and the slow. I love them all! Fun stuff talking/typing about guns.

You and I are similar bronte454 in that we like heavy for caliber molds.

[charlie b]

Took me a long time until I bought a 9mm. 50 years of using the 1911 and the .45 was a bit to overcome :) It really was a concealed carry permit that pushed me over the fence. I also like how cheap they are to shoot.

Big and slow vs small and fast. The "ultimate" pistol question :) I have to admit a bias toward the .357Mag as well. Probably because the state police out here in the west used it for so many years.

Good luck with your 9mm and cast. I have to say mine is a lot more picky than any of my .45's were. Very narrow range in powder load between getting it to function and too much pressure. FWIW, if the barrel isn't throated for cast then I'd sent it off and have that done.

[Handloader109]

I bought a 147 gr a couple of years ago for my 9mm. finally gave up on it and it's was sold a while back. My thousand or so bullets are now 357/38 special fodder. (and work well in either)
Keep near the 120gr and it should do well. BTW, I don't like the lee RN 125gr as nose is too big if I PC them.

[bronte454]

The cinder block analogy is obvious exaggeration that is supposed to be humorous and is meant only to get the point across in simple terms that someone who doesn’t understand handloading and the scientific formulas can easily understand without having to read through 3 reloading manuals . You here about cops or military folks shooting the bad guy with 15 rounds of 9 mm . It’s funny that you don’t hear those stories about the venerable 45 . This is why I took a hiatus from this site and why I don’t post much , because someone gets their shorts in a literal twist over a simple analogy and they feel the need to come to the rescue to be literally correct.

[KVO]

To answer the OP's question, the MP360-640 will function through four different 9mm pistols in my experience (none of which are 1911 based). No problem with magazine length. The ogive has a steep enough radius to clear some of the shorter throats found in current production 9mm pistols. Also has enough bullet weight hanging out the front end to keep the base from seating so deep as to swage down given the proper expander plug. Mine run closer to 145gr with the large HP and closer to 155gr as a solid.

4.2gr CFE Pistol averaging ~988fps from a 3.5" barrel (Sig 2022), OAL 1.090":

274461
274462

[Petrol & Powder]

Definition of Anecdotal:
(of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

Lets say you like blue cars and hate red cars.
You may attempt to show that blue cars are superior by giving anecdotal accounts of red cars seen broken down on the highway and red cars seen being towed.
You may also under report the similar failures of blue cars to give the appearance that red cars are inferior.
You may provide shining examples of blue cars winning races, lasting for decades and being used by select people while simultaneously underreporting the successes of red cars.

Those anecdotal accounts do not prove the alleged superiority of blue cars nor do they prove the alleged inferiority of red cars.

So when someone writes: "You here [sic] about cops or military folks shooting the bad guy with 15 rounds of 9 mm . It’s funny that you don’t hear those stories about the venerable 45."; you should know that there may be some bias being displayed.

[tazman]

The cinder block analogy is obvious exaggeration that is supposed to be humorous and is meant only to get the point across in simple terms that someone who doesn’t understand handloading and the scientific formulas can easily understand without having to read through 3 reloading manuals . You here about cops or military folks shooting the bad guy with 15 rounds of 9 mm . It’s funny that you don’t hear those stories about the venerable 45 . This is why I took a hiatus from this site and why I don’t post much , because someone gets their shorts in a literal twist over a simple analogy and they feel the need to come to the rescue to be literally correct.

Here is another analogy for you.
This is a story from Peter Hathaway Capstick, the African big game hunter.
He was asked which of the big game animals were the most dangerous.
His reply was along the lines of "All the big/dangerous game animals can hurt or kill you. You hear tales of people who have been attacked and maimed or killed all the time. But, you never hear stories of people being wounded by an elephant. If that big beast gets to you, you die."

To reply to your first post. I have and use an NOE-358-135 fn and an NOE 155 tc(ELCO).
The 135 is a great all around boolit and functions perfectly in every 9mm I own(2- 1911 pistols, several wonder 9s and one revolver). It weighs 135 grains using range scrap.
The 155 I cast as a hollow point. It weighs 147 grains using my alloy. It was designed as a 9mm boolit from the start and works well in that usage. There are a couple of threads about it on this site. The nose is fairly long but is designed to load at max OAL leaving more room in the case for powder to decrease problems in that regard. Very accurate boolit.
It also works well in the 38 Special.
I have used everything from 95 grain boolits(LEE) through 160 grain boolits(Lyman 258311) at one time or another. The 120-135 get the most usage. Mostly because they use less lead per shot.
I get sufficient velocity from the heavier boolits to get expansion if that was what I wanted.
The boolit you mentioned in the OP is close to the ELCO 155 grain boolit and should perform just fine.

[gnappi]

Paying $130 for a mold and making bullets is IMO better than not making bullets if you have a supply of primers and powder to put behind them.