My Indian Musket

[Thundermaker]

In the midst of this ammo shortage, I figured it was as good a time as any to get back into black powder shooting. I had never played with a flintlock, so I bought an "1801-05 prussian sharpshooter musket" from military heritage.
http://www.militaryheritage.com/musket32.htm

Their guns are, of course, made in India. I already know that this thread will spark a heated debate with responses ranging from "they're pipe bombs and I would never touch one", to "I shoot mine all the time".

Neither of those tells us anything. The first party has no first hand knowledge, and, when pressed, will produce one of only two pictures of blown Indian muskets that I have been able to find and verify. Even then, we don't know the cause, and I can find as many or more blown barrels from other manufacturers. The second party doesn't tell us what they have been shooting out of it. It might be 10 grains of powder and a ball of paper for all we know.

So, I have decided to document my experiences with this one. If it performs flawlessly, you'll all know. If you stop hearing from me for a year or two, well, that'll tell you what you need to know.

So far, here's what I have.

The breechplug has thread engagement past the pan. There is a groove cut in the plug to allow the touch hole to be drilled in the correct spot. I drilled mine at 1/16" with the hole centered with the top of the pan.

I had to remove a ton of material from the frizzen spring to get it to move. When I got it, the spring was the same thickness all the way through. The hammer couldn't budge it. I was kind of expecting that when I saw that spring in the stock photo. Looking at the photos for their other models, they don't seem to have this issue. This model was marked "New product" when I ordered it.
274134

Now that the frizzen can move, the lock throws lots of hot sparks. It can actually ignite pyrodex (more on that later).

I have fired a total of two shots with 60gr pyrodex p and 1oz of #7.5 shot. It patterned nicely at 25 yards.

The inletting is rough to say the least, but everything stays in place, and the fit is good enough to keep fouling out of the works, as you can see here.

274136
About the pyrodex. I mentioned to a friend that I had bought the musket, and I was going to have to get some real black powder. He said, "I have a bunch of it that I load 45lc with. I'll bring you some!" A week later, he shows up with a peanut butter jar marked "FFF 2lb". I thought, "great. 2 pounds will last me a while." The next day, I loaded the gun up and pulled the trigger. As soon as I saw how it burned, smelled the smoke, and saw the sheets of fouling it left, I immediately knew it was pyrodex. I only fired the second shot because I was going to have to clean the gun anyway, so I might as well see how it patterns. While it will ignite, it burns very slow in the pan and makes for a long firing delay. Oh well, it was free. I'll shoot it in my revolvers until it's gone and switch to the real stuff.

Update 12/31/20: I took 5 reference measurements along the barrel in preparation for the proof test. They are as follows.

1. Just ahead of the breechplug- 1.0785"

2. Where the end of the proof load will sit.-1.023"

3. Halfway between the first and second lug. -0.8385"

4. Halfway between the second and third lug.-
-0.7985"

5. At the muzzle. -0.7785"

I know, I know, calipers are not accurate to that many decimals. They're digital, and I just wrote down the numbers they showed me. I didn't round because that's an added variable.

Update 1/1/21: Happy new year! I brought it in with a bang.

Here's the part you've all been waiting for. The proof test.

The proof load was 200gr of 3f powder, a folded paper wad, 3 ounces of #7.5 shot, and another paper wad.

I reassembled the gun, loaded it up, and put it in a rest. I tied a piece of paracord to the trigger and ran it to a great big oak tree that was to be my shrapnel shield. I then primed the pan and cocked the hammer.

Safely behind the oak tree, I took a deep breath and yanked the string. I heard the big kaboom and prepared for the worst. It was time to inspect the damage.

I was extremely relieved to see a. complete gun in one piece. There were no cracks or visible bulging. The stock was intact.

I brought it inside and gave it about half an hour to cool to room temperature. I removed the barrel and took measurements at each of the 5 reference marks. NO CHANGE!

As far as I can find, this is the first publicised proof test of an Indian-made musket. Take from it what you will. As for me, I'm going to order the matching pistol and have fun.....the things I do for knowledge.

[scattershot]

Please keep us posted. I have wondered about these for a while now. Pics if you can would be appreciated, too.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Very interesting. Is it normal to have to do that much prep work to get the gun to fire? This may end well, and prove to be a nice rifle, but it sounds more like it wasn't intended to be used. Hoping for photos, and good luck with your project.

DG

[pietro]

Is it normal to have to do that much prep work to get the gun to fire?



Sometimes...………. I bought several new Marlin 336's from 1966-85, and while older/used guns are very smooth-operating, most of the new one's weren't.

I always had to spend some time & elbow grease to totally dissemble & de-burr the internals before they became smooth enough to use comfortably.

.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Hmmmm.....yeah...but a muzzleloader made without a touch hole? Kind of like a Marlin's bolt without a firing pin channel. "Our liability ends with your modification." I'm just commenting---not necessarily knocking the rifle. Performance remains to be seen, and the OP is offering to share his experience with us, so I'm sure we'll all be interested. Folks in different countries do things differently.

DG

[Thundermaker]

Hmmmm.....yeah...but a muzzleloader made without a touch hole? Kind of like a Marlin's bolt without a firing pin channel. "Our liability ends with your modification." I'm just commenting---not necessarily knocking the rifle. Performance remains to be seen, and the OP is offering to share his experience with us, so I'm sure we'll all be interested. Folks in different countries do things differently.

DG

All muskets made in India ship without the touch hole to get around Indian gun laws.

From the militaryheritage.com site:

"We sell historically accurate muskets and pistols in a non-firing state. This allows us to comply with various local, state, national and international firearms regulations, along with shipping company policy restrictions. This means the product comes right to your doorstep. A certified gunsmith may decide to alter a musket or pistol to a firing state by drilling the vent hole and test firing it. We are not legally responsible for any changes from its present state"

I can understand the disclaimer, because they have no control over what some idiot might stuff down the barrel.

The frizzen spring problem seems to be unique to my model. It was made from ungodly thick stock.



It has a threaded breachplug with a groove cut in it so as to have added thread engagement while allowing the touch hole to be drilled in the right place. It has three sizeable lugs on the barrel to hold it in the stock with three steel pins. The lock is functional with a well-hardened frizzen. That's an awful lot of trouble to go to for a wallhanger.

[Thundermaker]

pics added

[Brass&Lead]

Will you be testing it with a proof load from a safe location?

[toot]

can any one show a police report of a person being hurt from a blown up one, or a bonafide emergency room accident report on an injury stemining from a blowed up INDIAN MUSKET? I think not. so if any one has a police report of this happening, with the place & persons name of whom the place & person that it happened, I would say I am going to keep on shooting mine, I have 6 different INDIAN guns, and shoot them on a regular basis.

[Brass&Lead]

Toot,

We cannot in good conscience take the position that no firearm has ever failed in a catastrophic manner.

We probably can agree that catastrophic failure is a rare occurrence with firearms manufactured to good standards unless someone does something stupid.

Most reputable firearm manufactures proof fire a firearm prior to it leaving the factory to verify correct operation and safety. It appears that this firearm was NOT tested, and probably should be.

I am not implying that India can’t make good quality items, in fact it is quite the opposite. India has a long history of metalworking. One of the notable artifacts is the iron pillar of Delhi. It was made somewhere around 375-415 CE.

The problem is this display piece could have been made of the highest quality materials and workmanship or something less. By the OP comments on the need to fit the parts we can surmise that it may be more the latter than the former until tested to prove otherwise.

[Thundermaker]

Will you be testing it with a proof load from a safe location?

To answer that question, a lot of other questions would need to be answered. What constitutes a proof load. To answer that, we would have to establish what a "normal" load is. Is it 1 grain per caliber? We know that originals weren't loaded that way. Is it 2/3 the weight of the ball? That'd be about 175 grains. The service load of the baker rifle, which was the same caliber, was 95 grains of "fine rifle powder".

My approach is this. The heaviest load I would ever conceiveably shoot in this would be 100gr under 8 pellets of 00 buck. If the barrel survives 10 rounds of that without changing dimensions, I'm going to call it good. Some will say, "yeah, but the next one might be the one that blows it up!" Fair enough, but, by that logic, no gun can ever be considered safe to shoot, because, even if you've fired 10,000 rounds through it, that next one could blow it up.


Toot,

We cannot in good conscience take the position that no firearm has ever failed in a catastrophic manner.

Nobody said that. Just want to make that clear because I know how some people read forums.


We probably can agree that catastrophic failure is a rare occurrence with firearms manufactured to good standards unless someone does something stupid.

Agreed


Most reputable firearm manufactures proof fire a firearm prior to it leaving the factory to verify correct operation and safety.

Not in this country they don't. They might fire a couple of normal rounds to get the "fingerprint" for records purposes, but they don't proof anything. Even if they did, there are no proofing standards in the US.


The problem is this display piece could have been made of the highest quality materials and workmanship or something less. By the OP comments on the need to fit the parts we can surmise that it may be more the latter than the former until tested to prove otherwise.

I didn't have fit the parts. I just had to thin the frizzen spring down. Everything fits fine.

[waksupi]

Your proof load should be double what you expect to shoot. Sure as God made little green apples, someday you will double load it.

[freakonaleash]

Interesting the "Sharp Shooter" model has no rifling.....

[Thundermaker]

Interesting the "Sharp Shooter" model has no rifling.....

No Indian made gun has rifling because it would then legally be a weapon. Besides that, the original musket it replicates didn't have rifling either.


Your proof load should be double what you expect to shoot. Sure as God made little green apples, someday you will double load it.

Well, if the forum wants to chip in to replace the gun, I'll test it to destruction. If I got $2 for every view this thread has, that would cover the gun and the expense of the test rig. Then, we could settle this debate, one way or the other.

[missionary5155]

I have read somewhere what Proof Loads were. But that was too any years ago for me to make any statement.
Has anyone tried to Google "Black powder proof loads" ?

[missionary5155]

I just searched "Proof testing a Muzzle Loading Rifle".
There is all sorts of info from the Birmingham, Itallion and other Proof Houses.
There is a 3 minute YT from a manufacturer who uses the Double Charge (2x powder and ball) one time test measuring the barrel at 5 places before and after..

[Thundermaker]

That's a common definition of "proof load". The problem is, you have to establish what the normal load is before you can double it.


On a related note, anybody know where I can get some really tiny fuse?

[Thundermaker]

Some interesting reading.

http://www.veteranarms.com/ReproductionMuzzleloadersandFlintlocks/Proofing.html

[GregLaROCHE]

I own several original muzzle loaders. Sometimes I consider buying a reproduction and I do a bit of research. What I’ve come up with is the better ones come from Pedersoli in Italy. They are more expensive, but the quality and workmanship seems worth it to me. I haven’t bought one yet. This is just what I have learned from research and talking to people who own reproductions.

[Thundermaker]

I own several original muzzle loaders. Sometimes I consider buying a reproduction and I do a bit of research. What I’ve come up with is the better ones come from Pedersoli in Italy. They are more expensive, but the quality and workmanship seems worth it to me. I haven’t bought one yet. This is just what I have learned from research and talking to people who own reproductions.

I'm sure pedersoli does make the best repros. I would hope so, since they cost about $1000 more. This thread is not a comparison of Italian vs. Indian muskets. That horse has been beaten to death and beaten some more. Its sun-bleached bones are still being pulverized as we speak. The purpose of this thread is to document my experiences with my Indian musket with actual data.

[toot]

Roger that!!

[taco650]

I'm sure pedersoli does make the best repros. I would hope so, since they cost about $1000 more. This thread is not a comparison of Italian vs. Indian muskets. That horse has been beaten to death and beaten some more. Its sun-bleached bones are still being pulverized as we speak. The purpose of this thread is to document my experiences with my Indian musket with actual data.

And that's what I'm waiting and wanting to see. The others who want to discuss the safety of firearms, proof loads, etc. need to start another thread.

[Brass&Lead]

Example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q42lZqH-60
Please accept my apology for causing you consternation. Have a Happy New Year.

[arcticap]

Generally these India guns can pass proof testing in CIP countries.

How deep is the groove in the breech plug?
Is the breech plug longer than the one shown on the Veteran Arms proof page? --->>> http://www.veteranarms.com/ReproductionMuzzleloadersandFlintlocks/Proofing.html

I noticed that Loyalist Arms sells the same gun at a higher price, but it appears to come finished and ready to shoot.
The page also says that it's shipped with loading and proofing data and an excellent warranty. --->>> https://www.loyalistarms.ca/1801to05potzdamlightinfantrymusket.html

That should make it more appealing to some folks who don't want to work on a new gun in order to shoot it.

[freakonaleash]

I'd take the breech plug out of it and have a looky. I have seen some that are poorly threaded and sometimes even cross threaded. Also, why is a gun with rifling a "weapon" and one with out not?

[Thundermaker]

How deep is the groove in the breech plug?
Is the breech plug longer than the one shown on the Veteran Arms proof page? --->>> http://www.veteranarms.com/ReproductionMuzzleloadersandFlintlocks/Proofing.html

I noticed that Loyalist Arms sells the same gun at a higher price, but it appears to come finished and ready to shoot.
The page also says that it's shipped with loading and proofing data and an excellent warranty. --->>> https://www.loyalistarms.ca/1801to05potzdamlightinfantrymusket.html

All I can tell you is that the breechplug extends to the front edge of the pan. I'll measure it and see how long that is. The groove seems to extend from the end of the plug to the back of the pan, which is about 3/8". It is cut at an angle, so it is not the same depth across the whole face of the plug.

Other companies, such as veteran, loyalist, and Middlesex village trading import the guns and drill the holes themselves. Loyalist may still proof them. The rest say that they no longer bother because they always pass, and it's an unnecessary expense. They will still do it for a fee.

In any case, I'm going to test this one with 200gr of powder and 3oz of shot. We'll see how it goes.

[Thundermaker]

Also, why is a gun with rifling a "weapon" and one with out not?

The smoothbore isn't a weapon without a touch hole. If you drilled it, it would be. The rifled one is a weapon even without the hole. You'll have to ask the Indian government why that is.

[Thundermaker]

Just took a measurement. The threaded portion of the breechplug is about 3/4" long.

[Thundermaker]

The proof test is done. I have updated the original post with the information.

[dondiego]

I am surprised that 3 ounces of shot didn't blow it up!

[DanishM1Garand]

I’m going to order some pistols from Military Heritage.

Do NOT order anything from Middlesex Village Trading. I’m still waiting for a gun I ordered that was supposed to be in stock from December of 2019. His are also from India and are likely the same. He purportedly drills the hole in the barrel and test fired them. I won’t know till I get it.

Nice broomstick OP. Log Cabin Store in Lodi Ohio has black powder in stock and is muzzle loading only. Lodi is too far from Georgia of course but others may live closer.

[Thundermaker]

I can actually order the Graf's brand black powder from them for less than goex at powder Inc. I put 5lbs of 1f on order.

[Caswell Ranch]

Last powder order I made was through Midway U.S.A. , ordered Goex 2f , 3f and some O.E. 1 1/2 F, price was no real difference than from Graff. I found Graff brand although made by GOEX now to be dirty as it was when made by Wano.

[Caswell Ranch]

I am surprised that 3 ounces of shot didn't blow it up!

I want to know how it patterned ;)

[Thundermaker]

My total on 5lbs was $112 and change. They only charge $12.5 hazmat in addition to their $9.99 flat shipping. The downside is that they don't get in a hurry about shipping it.

[Thundermaker]

I want to know how it patterned ;)

Dang, I forgot to put the pattern board up.:grin:

[Caswell Ranch]

My total on 5lbs was $112 and change. They only charge $12.5 hazmat in addition to their $9.99 flat shipping. The downside is that they don't get in a hurry about shipping it.

I see Midway is setting a limit to 2lbs per household at this time, last month the same order was $119.24 (5 lbs of GOEX) to the door. Hazmat $11.99 shipping $12. **, powder $94.95 (18.99lb)

[DanishM1Garand]

The smoothbore isn't a weapon without a touch hole. If you drilled it, it would be. The rifled one is a weapon even without the hole. You'll have to ask the Indian government why that is.
When do gun laws make sense? Look at the USA and it’s Short Barrel Laws. 17.999 inch shotgun is illegal but an 18.000 inch shotgun is legal.

[toot]

as JOHN ARBUCKLE, FAMOUS COFFEE MERCHANT WONCE SAID-- YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!! still true today!!

[Thundermaker]

as JOHN ARBUCKLE, FAMOUS COFFEE MERCHANT WONCE SAID-- YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!! still true today!!

Okay. In reference to what?

[Caswell Ranch]

Thundermaker,
Have you tested anymore ?, .600RB , 7/8 oz shot, 1oz shot, it is a 20 gauge right

[Thundermaker]

I've been playing around with 100gr and 1 1/2 oz. I bought it intending to use it as a budget fowler. I bought several different molds from a member here. I can't do much until they get here.

[toot]

what do you think?.

[toot]

if you buy an INDIAN MUSKET then that is what you bought. what did you think it is going to be? one knows ahead of time before purchasing it what it is.

[Thundermaker]

if you buy an INDIAN MUSKET then that is what you bought. what did you think it is going to be? one knows ahead of time before purchasing it what it is.

Okay. Not sure what you mean by that. A lot of people must not know, because the questions of "are they safe?" and "do they work?" come up all the time.

[Caswell Ranch]

I've been playing around with 100gr and 1 1/2 oz. I bought it intending to use it as a budget fowler. I bought several different molds from a member here. I can't do much until they get here.

Have to ask, why not go for the following http://www.militaryheritage.com/musket28.htm or http://www.militaryheritage.com/musket22.htm

I'm not sure what Toot is trying to say.

[Thundermaker]

I went with this one because it has sights. I'm going to fire round balls in it occasionally, and even smoothbores are more accurate with sights. It also has a steel ramrod, which I saw as a plus.

[toot]

I own several of them for years and shoot them on a regular basis. all I can say is I have had not one problem with them!

[Caswell Ranch]

To me, any way you look at it the steel used in the Indian guns has to be better, or at least equal to the original guns they replicate. I found reference to PSI limit for this steel and barrel wall thickness of 30,000.
Below is steel industry reference to the type of steel used.



1. EN8 Steel is Steel Grade in BS 970 1955 Specification

EN8 steel grade belongs to the standard of BS 970-1955, which is a standard for wrought steel for mechanical and allied engineering purpose. In BS 970 standards, there are some other common steel grades, like EN9, EN19, EN24, EN36 etc. And the most equivalent is grade 080M40 steel in BS 970-1991.

2. EN8 Carbon Steel is Available in Following Shape:

We could supply EN8 steel in bright round bar in drawn/turned condition or round hot rolled, hexagon, square, steel flats and plate.

EN8 Steel Round Bar: 8mm-1600mm
EN8 Steel Cold Drawn Bar: 5mm-70mm
EN8 Carbon Steel Flat & Plate: 10-1500mm x 200-3000mm
Sizes of other shapes are available, please send emails to us for specific checking.

3. EN8 Carbon Steel Grade Equivalents

Other steel grades in ASTM, DIN, JIS standards are similar and equivalent to EN8 steel, as follows:

BS 970-1991:080M40
AISI/ASTM A29:1038, 1040, 1045
DIN Werkstoff No.: 1.0511, 1.1186, 1.1189
BS & DIN European: C40, CK40, C45, CK45
JIS G4051: S40C, S45C
4. EN8 Carbon Steel Properties

4.1 Carbon Steel EN8 Chemical Composition

Standard Grade C Mn P S Si
BS 970 EN8/080M40 0.36-0.44 0.60-1.00 0.05 0.005 0.10-0.40
4.2 EN8 Medium Carbon Steel Mechanical Properties and Hardness

Heat Treatment Tensile Strength Rm Yield Strength
Rm Rp 0.2 A min on Impact Hardness
5.65√So Izod Ft.lb KCV J
MPa MPa MPa HB
N 550 280 – 16 15 16 152/207
510 245 – 17 – – 146/197
Q 625/775 385 355 16 25 28 179/229
R 700/850 465 450 16 25 28 201/255


RFQ OF EN8 STEEL
5. Forging of Carbon Steel Grade EN8/080M40

Preheat the EN8 steel carefully, then raise temperature to 1050°C for forging. Do not forge below 850°C. After forging cool en8 steel slowly, preferably in a furnace.

6. Heat Treatment of EN8 Carbon Steel

EN8 steel is usually supplied untreated but also be able to be supplied to order in the normalized or finally heat treated, which is adequate for a wide range of applications.

Tempering – Carbon steel EN8 or 080m40 can be tempered at a heat of between 550°C to 660°C (1022°F-1220°F), heating for about 1 hour for every inch of thickness, then cool in oil or water.
Normalising of EN8 bright mild steel takes place at 830-860°C (1526°F-1580°F) then it is cooled in air.
Quenching: in oil or water after heating to this temperature will harden the steel.
7. Applications of EN8 Carbon Steel

EN8 steel material is suitable for the all general engineering applications requiring a higher strength than mild steel such as:

general-purpose axles
shafts,
gears,
bolts and studs.
spindles,
automotive and general engineering components,
other general engineering parts etc.

[Thundermaker]

The originals were wrought iron. Furthermore they had a forge-welded seam down the length of the barrel. I would think that, all else being equal, a barrel made out of any kind of steel would be stronger than one made of wrought iron. I have made that argument in the past, and was informed that originals were superior because iron is "ductile". He then qualified it with, "this is coming from a machinist of 30 years". To which I replied that "machinist" and "metallurgist" were two different words.

Regardless, my proof load was far in excess of C.I.P. standards, and the gun held fine. I'm not saying that my test definitively answers anything. I am, after all, a sample size of 1, but I'm satisfied for my purposes.

[Thundermaker]

Since shooting updates were requested, here you go.

Took it out to the range today to test various loads. 75gr of 1f and 1oz of 7.5 shot seems like it will do the job on birds and other small critters. 100gr and 10 pellets of 00 buck do well out to 15 yards (it has no choke after all).

Round balls didn't do so well. I tried a .600 ball patched with pillow ticking over 75gr 1f with crisco for patch lube. The first one went right where I was aiming. The next 5 went god knows where. The one patch I recovered was charred and smoking. I've had this problem in a rifle before. Going to a smaller grain powder solved it. I'll try the 2f next time.

[Caswell Ranch]

Try an over powder card followed by cushion wad with the patched .600 ball.

I found the link below about a week ago, this guys load info is exactly the same as what shoots well in two of my fowlers.

http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/SmoothboreLoads.html

[Caswell Ranch]

Not the be all end all but links below are what I tried and they work well for me.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2509186526

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2509287872

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/1_2-Waxed-Fiber-Wad-12ga-500_bag/productinfo/FX12/

[Caswell Ranch]

Thundermaker,
Must be of interest as the view count is high

[Thundermaker]

Probably is. I don't think anybody else has documented such a test on one of these.

[Caswell Ranch]

Keep it up.

[Thundermaker]

I mean, that stuff isn't about the musket itself. That's just load development.

I will say, it's going to need some more lock work to get it to 100%. I still think the work is worth the money saved.

[Maven]

Thunder...., Here is some advice I gave to a SB shooter on another site. Maybe it will help you as well::

You've got at least 6 variables to juggle: powder granulation; powder charge; ball diameter; how the RB is loaded, i.e. patched? card stock wads fore and aft, card stock wad over RB, tow wads fore and aft; tow wad atop RB; lube type and whether you mop the bore after each shot or not; and sight picture/cheek weld. If it were me (trust me I've been there), I'd select one RB diameter and powder granulation and charge, e.g., 70gr. FFg, and manipulate the others for a minimum of five shots each. I also would start @ 25 yd. (or meters), at least at first. Btw, I think barrel quality, which we can't [easily] change is another variable to ponder. Happy testing!


P.S. I've found patch thickness, barring extremes, makes less difference in a SB than it does in a rifle.

[taco650]

Duelist1954 on You Tube has a few videos showing how he worked through these same issues with his Fowler, might be worth watching before burning more powder.

[rfd]

Any muzzleloader is as close to a pipe bomb as one will be, igniting and deploying within inches of one's cranium and digits, as my avatar depicts.

I could do a dozen repeated conscientious bbl proofings and still would never trust a muzzleloader built of dubious materials in a third world manufacturing environment. How many double load proofs will any bbl survive before fracturing? With a good bbl, that would never. Could an offshore bbl survive 100 or 1000 proofings?

The material errors of such offshore firearms are going to be far greater than with a firearm built with American manufactured materials of the highest order.

This is one instance where the gamble of life is lots lower with an onshore built gun of quality components. Yes, this is where I believe money is well spent.

But of course, to each their own.

I wish the OP the best of luck with his newly acquired Indian muzzleloader.

[Thundermaker]

Can somebody pick up that phone?....'Cause I called it (in my third post). I should have started a betting pool.



I could do a dozen repeated conscientious bbl proofings and still would never trust a muzzleloader built of dubious materials in a third world manufacturing environment.

There are a lot of assumptions and a little bit of disingenuousness in that statement. The material is listed. You can look up the specs on it. As far as "third world conditions" go. Does that mean you wouldn't trust one of those insanely expensive rifles made by American makers using 1700s technology? Do you know what the Indian manufacturing process looks like? In the end, I guess it doesn't matter, because you prefaced the statement by saying that nothing will change your mind.


How many double load proofs will any bbl survive before fracturing? With a good bbl, that would never. Could an offshore bbl survive 100 or 1000 proofings?

So you know for a fact that an American or Italian barrel will withstand 1000 double load proofs? I'd love to see documentation. Italian barrels are proofed 1-3 times with a load that is 30% higher than normal, not double. American barrels aren't proofed at all, at least not as a requirement. My load was far in excess of even double the CIP load for the bore size. How many of those would be sufficient to declare the gun safe? If I did 100, you'd demand 200. If 1000, you'd want 2000. That goalpost can be moved into infinity, because you've already said that nothing will be sufficient.


The material errors of such offshore firearms are going to be far greater than with a firearm built with American manufactured materials of the highest order.

Why, because Americans are infallible, and Indians can't make anything decent? Ford motor company must not have gotten the memo. Have you seen metallurgical analysis on Indian barrels?

Everything in your post is speculation and assumption, and all of your arguments can be leveled against any manufacturer. What if Pedersoli got a bad batch of steel one week? What if the machine at Colerain cut some threads wrong, and they had a new QC guy on the job that day? Yeah, it passed proof, but what if the barrel can only handle 27,592 rounds, and number 27,593 blows it up? I guess we should destroy all our guns and take up a safer hobby, like knitting. The "what if" game can go on forever, unless you're suggesting that people of European descent don't make mistakes.

You could have saved a lot of time by just typing, "It's bad 'cause India!". That's essentially what it all amounts to, unless you have some data.

If you want to debate this stuff, please start another thread. This one isn't here for that purpose.

[rfd]

Can somebody pick up that phone?....'Cause I called it (in my third post). I should have started a betting pool.



There are a lot of assumptions and a little bit of disingenuousness in that statement. The material is listed. You can look up the specs on it. As far as "third world conditions" go. Does that mean you wouldn't trust one of those insanely expensive rifles made by American makers using 1700s technology? Do you know what the Indian manufacturing process looks like? In the end, I guess it doesn't matter, because you prefaced the statement by saying that nothing will change your mind.



So you know for a fact that an American or Italian barrel will withstand 1000 double load proofs? I'd love to see documentation. Italian barrels are proofed 1-3 times with a load that is 30% higher than normal, not double. American barrels aren't proofed at all, at least not as a requirement. My load was far in excess of even double the CIP load for the bore size. How many of those would be sufficient to declare the gun safe. If I did 100, you'd demand 200. If 1000, you'd want 2000. That goalpost can be moved into infinity, because you've already said that nothing will be sufficient.



Why, because Americans are infallible, and Indians can't make anything decent? Ford motor company must not have gotten the memo. Have you seen metallurgical analysis on Indian barrels?

Everything in your post is speculation and assumption, and all of your arguments can be leveled against any manufacturer. What if Pedersoli got a bad batch of steel one week? What if the machine at Colerain cut some threads wrong, and they had a new QC guy on the job that day? Yeah, it passed proof, but what if the barrel can only handle 27,592 rounds, and number 27,593 blows it up? I guess we should destroy all our guns and take up a safer hobby, like knitting. The "what if" game can go on forever, unless you're suggesting that people of European descent don't make mistakes.

You could have saved a lot of time by just typing, "It's bad 'cause India!". That's essentially what it all amounts to, unless you have some data.

If you want to debate this stuff, please start another thread. This one isn't here for that purpose.

I refuse to trust my life to third world country firearms. Period. That you do is your concern and clearly none of mine. However, there are newbies reading your comments and without some form of "rebuttal" never get to know or hear the "other side" from people who've been steeped in black powder firearms for well over six decades. My point is, don't cheap out on any firearm, particularly traditional muzzleloaders. Enjoy your Indian musket.

[Thundermaker]

I refuse to trust my life to third world country firearms. Period. That you do is your concern and clearly none of mine. However, there are newbies reading your comments and without some form of "rebuttal" never get to know or hear the "other side" from people who've been steeped in black powder firearms for well over six decades. My point is, don't cheap out on any firearm, particularly traditional muzzleloaders. Enjoy your Indian musket.

There are no "sides" here. I'm documenting my experiences with my one gun.

You have presented no data or experience for your "side", just your opinions. In the absence of data or experience, it doesn't matter if you've been in it for seven decades, and I'm getting really tired of that copout. I know a man who has been reloading for thirty years. He blew up his third gun last year with his handloads. Doing something for a long time doesn't mean you know everything about it.

As for newbies, I wouldn't recommend one of these for them. I've had to do some work to it to get it running, and it requires some mechanical aptitude and skill with tools. I had an idea of what I was in for when I bought it, and I decided that it was preferable to paying $1400 for a smoothbore. A newbie should probably get a traditions flintlock rifle or something. I specifically wanted a smoothbore.

[missionary5155]

Good morning Thunder...
I gave 3 years 22 days of my young life so you "Can do as you do". Keep at it and whether anyone else says so I will defend your right to do so as you please I beleive in "dangerous Freedom".
I appreciate your attempt to document your particular flinter. I have enjoyed reading your posts.
I have been around muzzleloading most my life I was 4 when dad decided I was old enough to be around him shooting his .69s.
I built my first Kit when I got out of the "pickle suit" in 1974. Been stuffing ever since. Have read alot also.
I do understand all the "opinions" posted here and they do run the full swing of the pendulum....
But your opinion is just as good as all the others because that is what Freedom is all about.
So please keep on with the documentation of what looks to me like a smoothy that will sere you well...
Mike in LLama Land for 4 days more God willing.

[toot]

WOW! it actually ignited PYRODEX in the pan?! amazing when they say it cant happen? so I guess that TRIPPLE 7- T-777, will ignite? it is much cleaner burning than PYRODEX, and I use it in my flint lock as a main charge in front of 10 grains of BLACK, goes off evert time with out a HICCUP!! I put in the black first. clean up time is in minutes not hours.

[toot]

missionary5155, thank you for your service! I am a VIET NAM VETERAN, CLASS OF 61, RA. ALL THE WAY, REGULAR ARMY. we were all so young then, now we are in our late 70's.

[toot]

COFFEE! don't you watch TV?

[toot]

Thundermaker, COFFEE! don't you watch TV?

[Thundermaker]

WOW! it actually ignited PYRODEX in the pan?! amazing when they say it cant happen? so I guess that TRIPPLE 7- T-777, will ignite? it is much cleaner burning than PYRODEX, and I use it in my flint lock as a main charge in front of 10 grains of BLACK, goes off evert time with out a HICCUP!! I put in the black first. clean up time is in minutes not hours.

I couldn't tell you. Pyrodex is the devil, and I exercised that bottle immediately upon discovery. I only shoot the real stuff.

What I can tell you is that, as long as the flint is good and sharp, it throws large sparks that actually hang around for a noticeable period of time.

[indian joe]

I couldn't tell you. Pyrodex is the devil, and I exercised that bottle immediately upon discovery. I only shoot the real stuff.

What I can tell you is that, as long as the flint is good and sharp, it throws large sparks that actually hang around for a noticeable period of time.

This is interesting for a number of reasons
1)My son has been shooting a little indian (percussion) smoothbore for fifteen years or so
2) that repro sounds like it didnt cost you much more than a replacement lock
3)I would have no trouble finding you several (ten maybe) smoothy barrels built from hydraulic tube that have done quite a deal of work without incident
4) Proof testing of every firearm has never made sense too me and I always seriously doubted whether they even did it - test an example till it blows up - yeah - that way you know the design and the manufacturing process is good but I would rather not have my new purchase subjected to a double or triple overload before they shipped it. metal fatigue is the term that comes to mind
5) the argument becomes a bit academic when US manufacturers dont proof their stuff at all and that is ok but unproofed imports are automatically suspect classed as junk - a bit of due diligence and some common sense required here.

[Steppenwolf]

Congrats on your musket. I have two Indian flintlocks that I bought twenty years ago. One from Loyalist, which has worked flawlessly out of the box. One from Military History, which required a lock tuning and touch hole drilled but flawless since.

[mazo kid]

Thanks for posting your journey with the Indian-made gun. I bought a blunderbuss on eBay (yes, that long ago) for $345.00; I drilled the vent and hardened the frizzen. I also made a sling, swivel and button for it, but that was for me. Been working fine since I got it.

[toot]

mazo kid, thank you for your input on this subject.

[JSnover]

I could do a dozen repeated conscientious bbl proofings and still would never trust a muzzleloader built of dubious materials in a third world manufacturing environment. How many double load proofs will any bbl survive before fracturing? With a good bbl, that would never. Could an offshore bbl survive 100 or 1000 proofings?



Who in their right mind would even do that? I have two safes filled with guns which may or may not have been proofed. Since none have been proof-tested 1000 or even 100 times (have any of yours?), should I be suspicious of all of them?

[sghart3578]

I have been looking at an Indian made Brown Bess. For you guys that own them, what happens when I need parts for the lock? Are the parts hard to get?

I know that I have had a hard time getting Italian gun parts and they are pricey to boot. Are Indian made locks easier to support?


Steve in N CA

[Thundermaker]

I have been looking at an Indian made Brown Bess. For you guys that own them, what happens when I need parts for the lock? Are the parts hard to get?

I know that I have had a hard time getting Italian gun parts and they are pricey to boot. Are Indian made locks easier to support?


Steve in N CA

That would depend on what retailer you buy them from. I can tell you military heritage doesn't offer spares.

[sghart3578]

Thank you.

[Thundermaker]

Just a little update in the saga of the Indian musket.

Some of you will be disappointed to know that it didn't blow up.

It doesn't seem to like patched balls. Good accuracy was obtained with a .600 bare ball with 75gr of 1f. I used a paper wad to hold it all in. I won't comment on the maximum accuracy, as I had to aim underneath the paper to make hits. Once I remedy that, I'll do some real accuracy tests. I was able to keep them within a 5" horizontal spread at 25 yards. They were strung vertically, as I didn't have a consistent aiming point. If I was using it to hit man size targets on a 16th century battlefield, it'd be fine, but it won't do for hunting. The next experiment will be a .570 ball in a paper cartridge with a 100gr charge.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I don't trust third world quality control.

[Thundermaker]

I don't trust third world quality control.

Ok, then start a thread about that, because that little tidbit is useless here. If you have actual relevant information as to why you don't trust these guns, that is welcome. Otherwise, your statement amounts to, "I don't want nuthin' them thar brown people make." At least you didn't waste as much text as Rfd to say it.

[waksupi]

Ok, then start a thread about that, because that little tidbit is useless here. If you have actual relevant information as to why you don't trust these guns, that is welcome. Otherwise, your statement amounts to, "I don't want nuthin' them thar brown people make." At least you didn't waste as much text as Rfd to say it.

Okay, I had an India gun come in. Checked it out, found it only had 1/4" of thread on the breech plug. Returned it tagged, "Unsafe to shoot".

[Thundermaker]

Okay, I had an India gun come in. Checked it out, found it only had 1/4" of thread on the breech plug. Returned it tagged, "Unsafe to shoot".

Okay. Even though that still isn't the purpose of this thread, can you give a little more information? When was it? Who sold it? What model was it?

[waksupi]

Okay. Even though that still isn't the purpose of this thread, can you give a little more information? When was it? Who sold it? What model was it?

Middlesex, about ten years ago. Double barrel flintlock shotgun. A friend had bought one that was pretty good, so another was ordered, and what arrived was far below standards of the first.

[Thundermaker]

Middlesex, about ten years ago. Double barrel flintlock shotgun. A friend had bought one that was pretty good, so another was ordered, and what arrived was far below standards of the first.

Did they send you a new one that was good, or did you just get a refund?

[waksupi]

Did they send you a new one that was good, or did you just get a refund?

I got a refund.

[dondiego]

Your point about "brown people" was the presumption here. Again, Japan is a first world nation and they are East Asian, not White folks.

You really should travel to see what working conditions are like in much of the third world.

Your presumptions here are PC and it is you that need to stop cluttering up this discussion.

You might want to check out who started this thread.

[freakonaleash]

I love this thread.;)

[toot]

it is like beating a dead horse. doesn't it get old by now?? same thing INDIAN MUSKETS are no good! I think we get it by now!!

[freakonaleash]

Indian made guns are hardly comparable to Corvettes.:groner:

[toot]

what is a CORVETTE ? that must be a new non INDIAN GUN?

[Red River Rick]

I've deleted some of these posts, for the reason given.
Any further posts of this nature will only end up closing this thread and possible infractions being issued.

Red River Rick
CB Moderator

[Thundermaker]

In the interest of documentation, here's a video by someone who has done a lot more shooting than me with these guns. His experiences largely reflect my own, although he seems to have had better luck with the locks on his.


https://youtu.be/ji7y7ufMS3U

[Jackrabbit1957]

Just a quick weigh in on the India stuff, I have had several locks come across my bench in times past, here is what I saw, quality can be all over the place from really well fitted to absolutely unusable. Barrels all looked good when I had one to look at. The last lock I looked at was from a new Baker rifle and it was so sloppy as to be non functional. My only real advise here is to really look the piece over and determine if you need to send it back. I believe the locks are hand made and getting exact replacement parts may be very difficult. Other then that I figure if can be safely shot why not enjoy it? Really impressed with the OP s efforts to make his shoot.

[Thundermaker]

I will admit, it took a bit of effort to get it running. It took considerably more effort to get it running well. If I get another Indian gun, I'll get it from veterans arms here in GA. It costs a bit more, but they do all the work for you, and you get a warranty. You'll still come out about $1000 less than a pedersoli.

[Lead pot]

I love shooting the old Flints and cap rifles. I build a few cap plains rifles and I still have the last one I build back in the 80's and it's still not finished :D I need to brown the barrel yet.. I was hoping it would brown its self. :D
Here is one Steve Losey build I saw sitting in a rack and it followed me home. :D It is a copy of a Southern Mountain that was used for the fur trades.
I wanted a rifle that looked like it was made in the back room shop with hand forged iron furniture, just like you would find for a 18/19 century working rifle. This rifle has a 44" 54cal rice barrel with Chambers ketland lock with the lock plate reworked a little. The mating of the iron are joined with riveted coper wire. It has everything I looked for in my working rifle. And it gets used :D
When I took the rifle out to set the sights for 50 yards for deer season I put up a X target and took the first shot on the right side to get as close to the inside of the X and not cut the line. I shot with the barrel resting on cross sticks sitting on a stool. The sights did not need moving with the round ball and load of 2F OE powder. The rifle shoots!! and ignition is very fast. The vent cuts center with the top of the pan and is centered.
The wind was up some that morning but the rifle put 5 balls one inch outside to out side of the group measurement.
308773

[indian joe]

I love shooting the old Flints and cap rifles. I build a few cap plains rifles and I still have the last one I build back in the 80's and it's still not finished :D I need to brown the barrel yet.. I was hoping it would brown its self. :D
Here is one Steve Losey build I saw sitting in a rack and it followed me home. :D It is a copy of a Southern Mountain that was used for the fur trades.
I wanted a rifle that looked like it was made in the back room shop with hand forged iron furniture, just like you would find for a 18/19 century working rifle. This rifle has a 44" 54cal rice barrel with Chambers ketland lock with the lock plate reworked a little. The mating of the iron are joined with riveted coper wire. It has everything I looked for in my working rifle. And it gets used :D
When I took the rifle out to set the sights for 50 yards for deer season I put up a X target and took the first shot on the right side to get as close to the inside of the X and not cut the line. I shot with the barrel resting on cross sticks sitting on a stool. The sights did not need moving with the round ball and load of 2F OE powder. The rifle shoots!! and ignition is very fast. The vent cuts center with the top of the pan and is centered.
The wind was up some that morning but the rifle put 5 balls one inch outside to out side of the group measurement.
308773

hmmmm that is kind of like a silk purse pretending to be a sows ear - rice barrel and chambers lock no wonder you called it home.

that said them old eyes still workin ok to shoot that group -- well done on all points.

[Lead pot]

Joe,
I love that rifle. It carry's and holds well with the swamped barrel. Those 6 shots were fired 9 years ago when I could still see pretty good.now knocking on the door of 84 it's tough holding center.
It rests in a place of honor.
308796

[Thundermaker]

I'm seriously considering a baker kit from the rifle shoppe.

[FrankJD]

Love the Kibler kits, built a .54 Colonial 4 years ago. Just ordered two more kits, SMR in .45 arriving in a month, and a Woodsrunner in .54 arriving in five months

The Colonial ...

https://i.imgur.com/o8AR9db.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/tDjwAqr.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/OJylbBB.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/GXjfcrk.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/aU9MDeK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/z3vcsfm.jpg

[LAGS]

That is one nice looking rifle.
I can't wait till Kibler decides to start making Hawken Style rifle kits.
Not because they are better.
But Hawkens are just my preference.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Beautiful stock.

DG

[indian joe]

That is one nice looking rifle.
I can't wait till Kibler decides to start making Hawken Style rifle kits.
Not because they are better.
But Hawkens are just my preference.

Lags
a bit of a yarn about Hawkens
my second life as a blackpowder shooter kind of evolved with a definite influence from replica so called "Hawken" style rifles (CVA and browning mountain rifles etc - 50 - 54 calibre - you know the story) how accurate or not they were to the real Hawken - is not the point.
I also erroneously let that morph into the idea that the Hawken was the mountain man gun ...
Then I was on a trip to your country (3rd time) travelling from friends place in the Nebraska sandhills to a workshop in Rapid City SD - so made a brief stop at the "museum of the fur trade" in Chadron - its (pretty much) in the north west corner of the state - the plan was to do this properly on the way back home after a cruise of the Black Hills -- well that didnt happen, I remember coming out of the hotel after our show was over - took a look at the sky and the wind howling down the street - I grabbed my kit and bolted south that evening. Two days later the blizzard had froze 10,000 head of black cattle in the area I was intending to be a tourist so i missed my proper visit to the museum - however I did get a look at it the first day and was amazed at what I saw - overall impression - I you took one of those repro hawkens in there (including the one in Robt Redfields Jeremiah Johnson movie) you woulda heard some grizzled old ghost whisper down from the rafters " whatcha doin with that lil peashooter sonny - the bears are gonna eat ya if ya go plinkin em with that" The mountain man guns were rows of big heavy flintlocks, 58 - 62 caliber, Alex henry, other names I dont recall, big heavy 38 inch barrels, mostly half stock I thought but a good number of full wood guns - they meant business!! ---just a quick impression (I spent maybe two hours there) maybe I didnt see it straight?

[LAGS]

I know what you mean Joe.
That is why I built a .58 and a .61 cal Hawken.
And yes.
The Hawkens we're heavier and more durable rifles because of where the mountain men were taking them.
I have seen several kits that were the old style Full stock Flinters like from Pecatonica.
But right now I just have too many rifles I am building , rebuilding or kits for me to order another rifle.
That is why I can wait till Kibler starts making the Hawken Style rifles.
I did look into buying one of those Indian made blunderbusses.
But I bought a kit from someone else so I could do my own building.

[HWooldridge]

There was a definitive book written some years ago, (The Hawken Rifle, by Chas. Hansen), that describes various original guns. IIRC, the author test fired a .62 with a very slow twist - perhaps 1-100” or thereabouts. A patched ball was used over a stiff charge of 120 grs or more, and the sights were found to be regulated at 200 yds. The conclusion was that rifle would have been ideal for buffalo and elk at typical ranges, and provide a better safety margin against grizzly. I may be misremembering here - but another comment was that some number of mountain men probably carried a second, smaller rifle for additional defense against hostiles, and for small game. No sense shooting rabbits (or Blackfeet) with a 60 caliber ball…

[Lead pot]

Oh man Frank, that is a fine looking shooter.
What did you use for a finish? and did you doctor the tiger strips with wax to keep a light grain or are they natrual?

Here is an Early Hawken. I like the lines of the Plains Rifles as well as the Southern Mountains rifles.
All this talk on these shooters your going to make me dig mine back out again. Havent made smoke with them for a spell.

309054

[FrankJD]

Oh man Frank, that is a fine looking shooter.
What did you use for a finish? and did you doctor the tiger strips with wax to keep a light grain or are they natrual?

Here is an Early Hawken. I like the lines of the Plains Rifles as well as the Southern Mountains rifles.
All this talk on these shooters your going to make me dig mine back out again. Havent made smoke with them for a spell.

309054

After completing the build in-the-white I sanded it all down to 400 grit, raising the grain with alky, then applied aqua fortis (Kibler's iron nitrate - the best I've used to date) and heat gunned it in. No other kinda staining was done. I paid a hefty premium price for the stock alone but I knew I'd sell the gun and bling finishes are the apple of most gun crank's eyes. The natural grain popped out quite nice. Sometimes you can get what ya pay for in very expensive wood. The final finish was about a dozen coats of Tru-Oil that I rubbed in with fingers only, being mindful of my shop's air temp and humidity levels, lotsa curing time, and 4/0 steel wool buffs between coats. Finishing alone took almost two weeks. Even with a big .54 bore swamped bbl, the completed rifle weighed near 10lbs. Ugh.

The SMR .45 kit I ordered will have plain maple wood will make for a nice schimmel flinter. The Woodsrunner .54 kit I also ordered will have a premium extra fancy tiger maple stock wood. Both of these guns will be in the 7 to 7-1/2lb total weight range, where the lighter weight and swamped bbls are more to the liking of an old 77yo man like me for offhand shooting. Now all I got to do is stay above the grass on a daily basis so's I can build 'em. ;)

I like Hawkens and have assembled a gaggle of them with offshore patent breech kits - I don't like patent breech plugs, Hate 'em - and all are flinters, I don't like them newfangled cap gun locks.

[Lead pot]

That is good work Frank.
The Hawken in my post I wanted to age the wood and I also used the Kiblers and darkened over the gas kitchen range for the effect I wanted :D work very well. Mine is a .58 I wanted to use for Buffalo and moose but it never made the trip. I relied on the .44 sharps three times filling the freezer with Bison.

I have enough parts for one more early Hawken and Pecatonica is just a 1/2 hr from me I might see what they have for wood.

[Thundermaker]

Way back when, I was asked to pull the breechplug and show some pictures. Since I had neither the tools not the inclination, I never got around to it. I've decided to polish the bore a bit, so I rigged something up and finally popped the plug. Here are a couple of pictures.

320213

320214

The threads look decent. This sucker was TIGHT!

You can see the neutralized rust on the the threads from the one round of pyrodex that I fired through the gun. I had to soak that thing with Kroll for a month before rust stopped seeping out of the seam between the plug shoulder and the barrel. That stuff really is the devil.