A wild hair with a .357 Mag Contender

[Lonegun1894]

So I recently bought an Accurate 36-245S, which casts at 250grs with my alloy and casts at .361". I also have a 10" TC Contender barrel with the common extra looong throat that some of them seem to have. I have loaded up two dummy rounds, with the bullets sized to .358", both with the bullet seated to crimp in the crimp groove, but one in .38 Spl brass and the other in .357 Mag brass. No surprise, but the .357 Mag round did not chamber fully, with just the rim being outside the chamber, Buuuuut.... the .38 Spl round chambered. So, what powder charge of Unique would you recommend? Or would anyone even pursue this? I'm not expecting any high velocity wonder round, but more of a close range heavy bullet thumper, something along the lines of a .358" "whisper", or 9x39 type, or, well, you get the idea. So, any ideas? This will definitely not chamber in any revolver I have, so that is not a concern, and this would only be fired in my Contender. I'm tempted to start as 2.5grs and work up slowly. Now, I don't know if this will even stabilize, but I'm curious where this project might lead.

[barrabruce]

Why do you need to crimp at all.
I’d be inclined to snuggle the nose into the rifling.
I mean there is no magazine so set back is no issue.
I don’t own a 357 mag but I an interested in your choice.

[3leggedturtle]

Had a friend make up some load data using a 250gr boolit I'll PM them to if you want. Todd/3leg

I had it done on Quickload and was for Blue Dot and Lil Gun......

[Led]

No crimp needed and set seating depth to touch the rifling. I'd use a slow pistol powder, 2400, H-110, 4227, etc. Maybe look at 357 Max data and see which powders work well in a contender barrel. If you just want to test, go 100% load density with Trail Boss, obviously velocity would be low however.

In fact, just rent a 357 Max reamer and extend the chamber. I did a 357 Mag handi rifle years ago and it works great. I turned the reamer with a tap handle. It fires 38 spl more accurately now than with the factory chamber, go figure.

Later,
Stephen

[Lonegun1894]

Y'all are absolutely correct about not needing to crimp. And I know a slow powder would get better velocity, but I have Unique and a could other fast pistol/shotgun powders, so want to use them if possible.

As to this choice, Barrabruce, I hunt with either a 158gr or 180gr cast, depending on which gun I'm using, but saw this mold for sale here and just got a wild hair and got curious. So this is just something to play with and see where it goes.

Led, I know reaming it out to Max would be beneficial and increase performance, but I was hoping to use the smallest charges possible, and since it chambers in .38 Spl brass, I might as well stick with that. I fully expect this to be an experiment that doesn't yield any serious performance, mostly because I don't have faith in this barrel to stabilize this long a bullet, and that's why I don't want to do any permanent changes to this barrel.

3leggedturtle, If it's no trouble, it would be very interesting and appreciated, but I don't have either of those powders, so it might come in handy for future use, but not much use until I find these powders.

[dtknowles]

A couple things, what is the twist of the barrel? I could calculate what velocity would be required to stabilize the bullet. I could go look for a drawing of the bullet but maybe you could provide it. Where is the bullet contacting the lead, throat, rifling? Nose sizing might let you use the .357 mag cases. How hard are you willing to push this ammo. I think in a Contender you can go to .357 Max. pressures, maybe even with .38 Special cases but you would need to use small rifle primers. You did not say what overall length you got to fit that is important in figuring this out. I think you are more than safe with your starting load of Unique but make sure the bullets clear the barrel. I think that load is light. I would rod the barrel every shot. I think those who recommending magnum pistol powders are maybe on a wrong track but Unique is probably a little fast for this. I don't think you can get enough of H110 or 2400 or 4227 in the case for best performance. I think this calls for something like Herco or Blue Dot or N110.

Tim

[Led]

Interesting you mentioned Blue Dot. I had some very good results with hot and heavy 32 acp loads just this week using Blue Dot. I didn't mention it because I'm not sure the op's experience with reloading off book so to say. I agree a contender barrel should easily be able to handle 357 Max pressures. I know my handi rifle does just fine.

Later,
Stephen

[gpidaho]

Lonegun. I have a 357 Handi rifle and have loaded a 245gr. RNFP over 4 and 4.5gr. of Unique for my 357 Blackout round. It was stable. Gp

[Lonegun1894]

Lonegun. I have a 357 Handi rifle and have loaded a 245gr. RNFP over 4 and 4.5gr. of Unique for my 357 Blackout round. It was stable. Gp

Thank you! That's getting close to what I was expecting to be the max load, but great to know.

[Lonegun1894]

Interesting you mentioned Blue Dot. I had some very good results with hot and heavy 32 acp loads just this week using Blue Dot. I didn't mention it because I'm not sure the op's experience with reloading off book so to say. I agree a contender barrel should easily be able to handle 357 Max pressures. I know my handi rifle does just fine.

Later,
Stephen

I've done quite a bit "off book loading", with a total of 20 years of loading experience as of last summer, and still have all my body parts, but was asking because I would really like to keep it that way and figured someone here has done this. I do appreciate the caution you took though. Thank you.

If anyone has any suggestions you don't feel comfortable posting in open forum but would be willing to discuss privately, feel free to PM me please. And Any suggestions anyone may or may not make, I hereby release anyone of any liability for any harm that may be caused if I choose to follow their advice because as we all know, my loading practices, and the results of them, are my responsibility and my own only. In case there's anyone here that is a lawyer or plays one on TV. :)

[Lonegun1894]

A couple things, what is the twist of the barrel? I could calculate what velocity would be required to stabilize the bullet. I could go look for a drawing of the bullet but maybe you could provide it. Where is the bullet contacting the lead, throat, rifling? Nose sizing might let you use the .357 mag cases. How hard are you willing to push this ammo. I think in a Contender you can go to .357 Max. pressures, maybe even with .38 Special cases but you would need to use small rifle primers. You did not say what overall length you got to fit that is important in figuring this out. I think you are more than safe with your starting load of Unique but make sure the bullets clear the barrel. I think that load is light. I would rod the barrel every shot. I think those who recommending magnum pistol powders are maybe on a wrong track but Unique is probably a little fast for this. I don't think you can get enough of H110 or 2400 or 4227 in the case for best performance. I think this calls for something like Herco or Blue Dot or N110.

Tim

Tim,
I hope this helps:

As per my loading manuals, TC used 1:14" twist in their factory .357 Mag barrels, but I have not measured my specific barrel, so that isn't a guarantee. My bullet is 1.038" long without GC, but designed to be GCd. I am hoping that the low velocities I am expecting will allow me to use this bullet as is, but I will try it with and without a GC. I weighed a random 10 of them, and came up with weights of 250.4grs to 251.0grs with 7 of them being at 250.8grs. My dummy round measured 1.755" OAL. And I hope I manage to attach photos properly because I did not find a drawing of the Accurate 36-1245S bullet that I am using.


edit: I can't seem to upload the photos, but... http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-245S-D.png

[dtknowles]

That bullet should be stable even in a 1:18" twist except on very cold days at velocities under 800 fps. If your barrel is really 1:14 you will have no stability problems. My suggestion to rod the barrel neglected to consider this is a break action gun and you can easily look down the barrel to make sure it is clear. That small charge of Unique with such a big bullet will not get you much velocity.

274090

Tim

[P Flados]

Here is a Quickload run. QL is typically pretty accurate for velocity, but it is not considered accurate for pressure in straight wall cartridges. I did change the pressure rating from the 38 Sp default to 52 ksi consistent with use in a contender that can handle the pressure of a 223.

Cartridge : .38 Special (CIP)
Bullet : .357, 250
Useable Case Capaci: 12.093 grain H2O = 0.785 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.750 inch = 44.45 mm
Barrel Length : 10.0 inch = 254.0 mm
Powder : Alliant UNIQUE

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 4.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-40.0 42 3.00 688 262 11357 1087 100.0 1.798
-36.0 45 3.20 717 286 12772 1143 100.0 1.706
-32.0 47 3.40 746 309 14275 1198 100.0 1.621
-28.0 50 3.60 774 332 15869 1254 100.0 1.545
-24.0 53 3.80 800 355 17553 1309 100.0 1.478
-20.0 56 4.00 826 379 19330 1364 100.0 1.417
-16.0 58 4.20 851 402 21200 1419 100.0 1.362
-12.0 61 4.40 875 425 23165 1474 100.0 1.312
-08.0 64 4.60 899 449 25227 1529 100.0 1.266
-04.0 67 4.80 922 472 27387 1583 100.0 1.224
+00.0 70 5.00 945 496 29648 1637 100.0 1.185
+04.0 72 5.20 968 520 32013 1690 100.0 1.149
+08.0 75 5.40 989 543 34483 1743 100.0 1.116
+12.0 78 5.60 1011 567 37061 1796 100.0 1.085
+16.0 81 5.80 1032 591 39752 1849 100.0 1.056
+20.0 84 6.00 1053 615 42557 1901 100.0 1.028

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 70 5.00 956 507 33450 1606 100.0 1.146
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 70 5.00 930 480 25655 1681 100.0 1.239

[gpidaho]

P F: Thanks for running the numbers. The load I mentioned above was in 357mag brass and fired in the long throat of a Handi rifle as a subsonic. Looks like there's room to increase the charge and still stay under 1,100 fps. I doubt I'll mess with it more but the numbers are appreciated. Gp

[P Flados]

P F: Thanks for running the numbers. The load I mentioned above was in 357mag brass and fired in the long throat of a Handi rifle as a subsonic. Looks like there's room to increase the charge and still stay under 1,100 fps. I doubt I'll mess with it more but the numbers are appreciated. Gp

Here is what I think is an important note to anyone playing with loads based on QL. We all know that bullet seating depth and case capacity matter. Generally our stuff is not a perfect match for the components in published loads. For QL there is a key parameter that can be helpful in sanity checking what we are doing. It is the "percent fill" (a.k.a load density). This parameter combines bullet length, OAL and case capacity. In QL, I can adjust case capacity down, and OAL up and the results stay essentially the same as long as the percent fill stays the same. The data below listed 84% at the max load, 6 grs. This means you should be able to confirm that 100% fill at your bullet seat depth occurs right around 7.1 grs. Getting to 100% fill much before expected is a warning that something is not right.

[No_1]

Would you provide the barrel length and velocity?


Lonegun. I have a 357 Handi rifle and have loaded a 245gr. RNFP over 4 and 4.5gr. of Unique for my 357 Blackout round. It was stable. Gp

[gpidaho]

Would you provide the barrel length and velocity? No. 1: The length of the 357 Handi barrel is 22" chamber and all so approx 20" of rifling. I didn't chrono these as it was just whim, wonder if this would work. Light recoil and no flat primers. The mould was a Saeco and designed for the 35 cal rifles. Gp

[bluejay75]

Go a little deeper into the case and taper crimp or Collet crimp to remove the flare. Unique really doesn’t like to be crimped much.

[Lonegun1894]

Thank you everyone. Now I just need to cast up a couple dozen of these and start load work up. Hopefully, I'll have some good news, or at least some good info, for us all when done. Just please don't get impatient with me on this because work will probably make it impossible to get out and do any testing this weekend, so I'm hoping for next. Thank you again.

[gpidaho]

Lonegun: I'll watch your progress with interest as I like messing with oddities myself. No rush. I'll get out and chrono a few of the heavies from my Handi rifle for you guys when the weather warms up a bit here in Idaho. That will likely be more than a couple weeks. LOL Gp

[dtknowles]

Lonegun: I'll watch your progress with interest as I like messing with oddities myself. No rush. I'll get out and chrono a few of the heavies from my Handi rifle for you guys when the weather warms up a bit here in Idaho. That will likely be more than a couple weeks. LOL Gp

What's to stop you from stepping out into the back yard a pumping a couple rounds thru the chrono?

Tim

[gpidaho]

Tim: I would love to be able to do just that but as I live in town and have very close neighbors it's frowned on. Although, I'd like to send a couple whistling through the yard of the J.A. that lives behind me. Gp

[Lonegun1894]

Tim: I would love to be able to do just that but as I live in town and have very close neighbors it's frowned on. Although, I'd like to send a couple whistling through the yard of the J.A. that lives behind me. Gp

How about we send the J. A. that lives next to me on down the road and you move in next to me? Still in town, but my neighborhood would improve immensely.

Also, I don't have a chrono, so for now, all I can report back is stability, accuracy, etc. My old one died a violent and untimely death, and I haven't replaced it yet.

[gpidaho]

How about we send the J. A. that lives next to me on down the road and you move in next to me? Still in town, but my neighborhood would improve immensely.

Also, I don't have a chrono, so for now, all I can report back is stability, accuracy, etc. My old one died a violent and untimely death, and I haven't replaced it yet. Could never leave Idaho but I do agree that new neighbors (at least one) would be a big improvement. Gp