Irritated with LEE

[hoosierlogger]

So I bought the newest edition Lee reloading manual so I would have load data for Lee molds. In the past I was
Using my Lyman manual to find a close match to the Lee boolit. Be damned If I didnt cast, powdercoat, and install gas checks on some Lee .308 150 grain flat nose boolits today only to find the 150 grain Lee bullet is not listed in the load data for 30-30.

Anyone have any ideas where to start?

[Bazoo]

The lee bullet in question is listed in the Lyman cast bullet handbook 4th edition for 30-30. I can text you a picture of the data if you message me your number. Or offer you the info for the powder your interested in.

[Mk42gunner]

I find that many, if not most, cast boolits have zero published data available. With all the custom molds available today, it is even worse.

I usually do as you, find something reasonably close and work loads up. Take anything you see on an internet forum, even this one, with a large grain of salt.

Good luck and be safe,

Robert

[cwtebay]

This is the Lee Precision from Load Data. Apologies if it's not what you are looking for (no bullet profile listed).https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201227/3e14458b8f34d3bb01d7478424cfa842.jpg

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[nueces5]

That's a good thing about boolits, most of the time, you will have to work to find "the" charge for the gunpowder, gun and boolit.
This if he takes it as something fun, he will give you a lot of shots with his gun to see which one he likes the most.
I live in Argentina, where the gunpowders that are commonly used are not abundant. It took me almost 6 months to find a charge for my 7.65 mauser, and it gave me a lot of fun!
I hope you have the same fun

[Tar Heel]

I suggest you expand your bibliography. Over the years I, and others, have acquired a host of cast bullet load data in manuals including the Lee load data. Lyman, RCBS, and others have been publishing cast bullet data for years. If your specific bullet isn't listed, a close one is sure to be listed by weight and style. A 158gr lead bullet for a 38 Special is a 158gr lead bullet regardless of what mold it falls out of. The older manuals, once found, are chock full of useful data as well. The Lyman Cast Bullet manual is fantastic.

[bimus]

I think Lee uses data from the different company's that make powder mainly because I have never seen those powders for sale at the stores around me . to test loads them self's I have not seen any thing .

[charlie b]

^^^this

Lee does not generate any data on their own, even for their own bullet designs. Kinda like other mold mfgs such as Accurate Molds or NOE. Lyman is the only mold maker that I know of that goes to the trouble to generate load data for their designs.

[1hole]

You're spinning your wheels looking for exact load data for every bullet made; it just isn't available.

It would be virtually impossible for our loading book makers to provide data for all individual bullets, including cast, and it's neither necessary or helpful anyway. Book makers develop their data with their firearm and your's is not theirs, that difference alone means far more than the shape of any bullet.

The way it's done is we pick a bullet of similar weight and type (jacketed or cast ), find published data for it and develop our own load from there.

[Four-Sixty]

If you cant' find loads after a search of this site, post a topic in the "CB Loads... Your Favorite Cartridge" section also here on this site. Folks will share theirs!

[jimkim]

Use 170gr data.

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[Conditor22]

Lee doesn't do any of its own testings, they just get published data and put it in their book.

Lyman cast #4
https://i.imgur.com/KS3Zdu6.jpg

[richhodg66]

I got that Lee loading manual as a gift a few years ago, hands down the least used and worst load manual I own, and I own quite a few.

Lots of data out there for 150ish grain cast bullets, find something reasonably close, start with starting data and work up carefully, it's been that same game for years.

[hoosierlogger]

You're spinning your wheels looking for exact load data for every bullet made; it just isn't available.

It would be virtually impossible for our loading book makers to provide data for all individual bullets, including cast, and it's neither necessary or helpful anyway. Book makers develop their data with their firearm and your's is not theirs, that difference alone means far more than the shape of any bullet.

The way it's done is we pick a bullet of similar weight and type (jacketed or cast ), find published data for it and develop our own load from there.

I understand there isnt going to be info for every mold ever made in one place, but dang at least give load info for your own products. Its like having to look in a Chevy service manual to see how to set the timing on a Ford because ford didnt put that part in their manual.

[hoosierlogger]

Thank you Conditor, Thats the info I was looking for. Ill have to add that book to my list.

[charlie b]

I understand there isnt going to be info for every mold ever made in one place, but dang at least give load info for your own products. Its like having to look in a Chevy service manual to see how to set the timing on a Ford because ford didnt put that part in their manual.

Why? RCBS doesn't do it. SAECO, Accurate Molds, NOE, etc don't do it.

Lee provides a compilation of load data to put in the boxes of their reloading die sets to give the reloader on a budget something to start with. It is not included with their molds since they do not do any of the testing with their designs.

I've never purchased the Lee book for that reason. Most of the information in there is available elsewhere. For casting the Lyman manuals have been the best single source of cast bullet info for decades.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

In 30-30 I use 15 grains of 2400 or 10 grains of Unique with a 165 grain boolit. I match boolit weight to recommended charges and don't worry about exact boolit type.

[tankgunner59]

Lee data is copied from the online data and manuals. Lee doesn't have a test lab like Lyman and others. I use the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual. There is some in Hornady's manual.

[Targa]

I like having Lee’s book in my reloading library, it is kind of like having a rough summary of others load testing and I do use it but there reasons why reloaders have numerous loading manuals. The absolute must haves for me are Lymans Cast bullet handbook and their 50th Edition reloading manual.

[gwpercle]

Thank you Conditor, Thats the info I was looking for. Ill have to add that book to my list.

Put the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition at the very top of your list...it will save you a lot of irritation .
Actually ... you can't have too many cast boolit load data manuals ... information is good !
Gary

[Idz]

The big problem with the lee manual is that it doesn't identify the bullet other than its weight.

[oldsalt444]

+1 on Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Ed. Lee 2nd Ed. does have cast bullet data for 30-30, .308, and 30-06. But it only has listings for bullet weight, not mold specific. But that's all you need anyway. No point in getting completely anal with specific molds, bullet alloys, etc. I've used Lee data for years and it is always safe if not on the conservative side.

[John Boy]

Logger, pick whatever you want to charge for a 30-30, 150gr bullet. And save this website, so you don’t have to post and ask ... http://stevespages.com/308_9_150.html
http://stevespages.com/page8a.htm

[hoosierlogger]

Logger, pick whatever you want to charge for a 30-30, 150gr bullet. And save this website, so you don’t have to post and ask ... http://stevespages.com/308_9_150.html
http://stevespages.com/page8a.htm


Thank you so much. That right there is a valuable resource.

[Bazoo]

RCBS does in fact publish data. I'm not sure which manual it's from, but in my loadbooks one book one caliber manuals RCBS bullets and data is present in each.

[MOA]

Why? RCBS doesn't do it. SAECO, Accurate Molds, NOE, etc don't do it.

Lee provides a compilation of load data to put in the boxes of their reloading die sets to give the reloader on a budget something to start with. It is not included with their molds since they do not do any of the testing with their designs.

I've never purchased the Lee book for that reason. Most of the information in there is available elsewhere. For casting the Lyman manuals have been the best single source of cast bullet info for decades.

Charlie b, in the overall scheme of things it is true most of the mold companies don't generate their own data for their mold designs. But at one time RCBS did do just that. Not found as commonly as other cast boolit loading books but they did at one time produce this manual. ( the caveat to this is it looks like Speer was involved with the data. So even RCBS did not soley produce the loading data totally independent from the major reloading labs they did work in cooperation with staff of Speer and CCI.)

https://i.postimg.cc/rpyL1Tzf/20201227-135306-1.jpg
(https://postimg.cc/XrPh***5)

https://i.postimg.cc/cLrRrgBh/20201227-140411.jpg (https://postimg.cc/RWx6Y08J)

https://i.postimg.cc/nzrvyXSN/20201227-165243.jpg (https://postimg.cc/G808YmCj)

[kreuzlover]

How cool! I have been reloading since 1965, and I've never seen that RCBS cast bullet reloading manual.

[Bazoo]

Guess that is where the RCBS data in the loadbooks usa comes from.

Is there more than one volume or edition?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Guess that is where the RCBS data in the loadbooks usa comes from.

Is there more than one volume or edition?

"Number 1" (copyright 1983, I believe?) is the only edition by RCBS.

[MOA]

Correct JohB. It's the one and only manual they produced. I was very lucky a few years ago to come across this mint volume. The spine is in uncreased condition. I only open it just so far when using it.

[blikseme300]

What none of the published manuals can deliver on is if the loads will be accurate from your rifle or pistol, they are just safe loads. There is so much more to reloading than load recipes. Anyone who is looking for instant gratification with cast or any kind of reloads is barking up the wrong tree. I know this is harsh, but it is what it is.

[charlie b]

Thanks for that info on the RCBS manual. I wonder if they tested pressures for any of those loads. Kinda interesting they haven't printed any more.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Thanks for that info on the RCBS manual. I wonder if they tested pressures for any of those loads. Kinda interesting they haven't printed any more.

There is no mention of Pressure testing in the "intro to loading data" page. They do mention that the two charges shown for each powder/boolit combo, is neither Min or Max...to paraphrase...the top load is near the level where accuracy starts to go bad and the bottom load is a guide to guesstimate how much speed is lowered when reducing a "certain" level of charge. It also states they used a 10-1 alloy and RCBS lube for all boolits tested. Now, we Castbooliteers know that you can get more speed with accuracy, with alloys that are harder than 10-1.

[tomme boy]

http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Reloading/Reloading%20Manuals/Modern%20Reloading%202nd%20Edition%20by%20Richard% 20Lee%20-%20ocr.pdf

[reloader28]

"Number 1" (copyright 1983, I believe?) is the only edition by RCBS.

Mine says 1986. Nice book but I always thought it was just kinda lacking something

[1hole]

No two firearms are identical so no formula or loading book maker can possibly tell us precisely how to load for either cast or jacketed bullets. Nor, except in broad terms, can anyone tell us what chamber pressure will be generated by any book load because our loads, our lead alloys nor our guns will ever be identical.

Anyone hoping to find some kind of magic in a "book tested" reload is kidding himself; that just ain't gonna happen. We have to learn how to do this stuff safely, it's just not a calibrated activity so the best of our books are no more than general guides. No cast bullet of a given caliber and weight is going to be predictabily different from others of its type just because of the mold brand or nose profile or numbers of lube and crimp grooves or a gas check.

Lee doesn't test individual cast bullet loads by mold number; so far as I know, no one else does either, that's our job. Lyman lists the molds they used for their book data but they do NOT tell us that a given bullet has any hazardous differences from others of the same weight.

Lee's hard back and annual magazine loading manuals give us excellent data drawn from reputable sources (but not from other book maker's copyrighted manuals) and they do it at a nominal price. Why should they pressure test everything, what would be the point of Lee duplicating and charging us for what has already been done by our many powder and bullet makers?

Complaining about Lee's lack of data by mold number is unjustified. Excepting ONE issue of RCBS' cast bullet manual some 35 years ago, none of our mold makers even try to specifically test loads for every bullet variation they make because it would be both costly and effectively meaningless to us.

[Land Owner]

In spite of serious caveats warning NEVER to believe internet-responses as sources for powder reloading recipes, there are a number of private sources found, quoted, and linked, that are providing recommendations. "Stevespages" linked above is one of them. Further research is hoped to expose the source(s) for these loads.

In a rifle, a 50-thousand psi "bomb" inches away from your face, eyes, and hands is sobering thought. When you own and have thumbed through "enough" bullet and powder Mfg. manuals (at fingertips for comparative purposes), extrapolated criteria that wasn't published for the exact bullet of choice, reloaded and shot "sufficient" rounds of various pistol and rifle calibers safely, and considered the variations and ramifications as adapted to a lifetime of reloading, you KNOW what is or isn't right for your guns. The strictest warning in the Lee Reloading 2nd Ed. manual (pg. 205) linked above is:

YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SAFETY OF YOUR RELOADS.

[fredj338]

You shouldn't be irritated with Lee but yourself for over thinking it. Find data for 150gr lead & start in the middle & work up.

[gwpercle]

How cool! I have been reloading since 1965, and I've never seen that RCBS cast bullet reloading manual.

Only us old Pack Rat Cast Reloaders have that one ... I would buy every cast boolet book that came out back then ... no internet ... no other way to learn how to cast and load them except through manuals .
Gary

[dondiego]

I have one but it is rarely used and then only as a cross reference.

[hoosierlogger]

Damn guys, Most of you act like I was asking for the secret recipe to a perfectly successful dead on accurate load. All I was getting at it that I was disappointed that they dont even list THEIR bullet on the 30-30 page in THEIR book. Sorry to bother everyone. Trying to be careful with the loads since The 3 books I have vary wildly on starting load suggestions.

[Tar Heel]

Only us old Pack Rat Cast Reloaders have that one ... I would buy every cast boolet book that came out back then ... no internet ... no other way to learn how to cast and load them except through manuals .
Gary

Yup. And now the youngsters just want a fast answer to a complex question. No learning, no education, no desire to learn - just want an immediate answer and then they will argue your answer is incorrect. Jeez.

[MOA]

Yup. And now the youngsters just want a fast answer to a complex question. No learning, no education, no desire to learn - just want an immediate answer and then they will argue your answer is incorrect. Jeez.

:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:

[1hole]

All I was getting at it that I was disappointed that they dont even list THEIR bullet on the 30-30 page in THEIR book.

All we can say is that being critical about Lee may feel good but, until every other mold maker (and jacketed bullet maker too) starts giving noobs detailed answers for pointless questions about bullet points, your posted great disappointment with Lee's failure to provide trivial data is meaningless. IMHO of course.

You need to do what everyone else working with a new bullet does. Relax a bit, pick any starting point you like for that weight and develop your load because the shape of bullet points don't change chamber pressure.

[Land Owner]

Yup. And now the youngsters just want a fast answer to a complex question. No learning, no education, no desire to learn - just want an immediate answer and then they will argue your answer is incorrect. Jeez.

It is NOT reserved to the young! My BIL, a Marine Vet, at 69 y.o., is interested in shooting his 9mm "more", but factory ammo, being scarce and expensive, puts him off. Over the holidays he asked me to review his reloading equipment and make recommendations.

I cataloged the equipment he has and what he needs (a lot) in order to GET STARTED. I questioned his underlying motivation to reload - what research had he done (none), did he have a motivation to reload - other than cost (no), why go through the initial equipment expense that won't be amortized over his shooting days ahead, and why doesn't he purchase expendables and come to my "laboratory" for reloading (he is considering that). He wants to purchase a Dillon, "to make a lot of cheap and easy bullets", and has no desire to go through a learning curve. I have to continue to live, as family, with my BIL and this is with what I am now faced.

[ChuckJaxFL]

Damn guys, Most of you act like I was asking for the secret recipe to a perfectly successful dead on accurate load. All I was getting at it that I was disappointed that they dont even list THEIR bullet on the 30-30 page in THEIR book. Sorry to bother everyone. Trying to be careful with the loads since The 3 books I have vary wildly on starting load suggestions.

I’m going to go against the popular position and agree with you.

It does not seem at all unreasonable to me to pick up a Lee manual with the expectation that Lee put load data for Lee bullets in it. It seems to me that the Lee manual is the FIRST place I’d look for such information. I also start looking in the Lyman manual when I pick up a Lyman mold.

For years and years, I’ve read post after post after post in which pulpit pounders have cried “buy a manual and stick with it”. Now you have done so, and you’re being scolded, and told to go figure it out on your own.

I don’t get forum culture sometimes.


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[dtknowles]

Damn guys, Most of you act like I was asking for the secret recipe to a perfectly successful dead on accurate load. All I was getting at it that I was disappointed that they dont even list THEIR bullet on the 30-30 page in THEIR book. Sorry to bother everyone. Trying to be careful with the loads since The 3 books I have vary wildly on starting load suggestions.

I got that, irritated not fighting mad. I rarely look at starting loads unless I am planning on staying on the low side. I usually look at the max load and back off what I think will be enough cushion for a safe place to start. With cast bullets often the max load listed is not pressure limited but velocity limited or somebody's idea of a good place to stop. Some references only list a max load.

Tim

[charlie b]

I guess I should be irritated that Lyman does not list load for all of their bullets for a given cartridge either, even the more popular ones.

Just not something to get fired up about.

[cwtebay]

You know, I should have started off with this: Lee is an incredible company that has been nothing if not helpful to me. I appreciate their products and their customer support. Props to all of them!!

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[GONRA]

GONRA's half *** comment is - ALWAYS get the POWDER MANUFACTURER'S info / folders / etc.
for Official Safety References. You can "read between the lines" and infer lottsa useful info.....

[richhodg66]

I have a copy of that RCBS manual I got at a gun show for ten bucks and have found it useful quite a few times. When looking for a deer hunting load for my 7x57 Mauser, none of the other cast manuals I had had a load for a 165+ grain bullet as fast as I wanted it, but the RCBS one did and I used it. Worked fine.

[dbosman]

My understanding is that Richard Lee didn't think the bullet nose shape made enough of a difference to bother with.


The big problem with the lee manual is that it doesn't identify the bullet other than its weight.

[Bazoo]

Well I'll buck the trend. I think there is nothing wrong with wanting data specific for a bullet even if one can extrapolate or substitute data.

Nose profile don't matter. But bearing surface does. Lee bullets aren't a copy of some other bullet with a differen nose. They are different bullets entirely.

I'd like very much for a company to test all of lees bullets for the common calibers. Do I need it to develope loads? No, but I'd buy a copy.

[1hole]

Well I'll buck the trend. I think there is nothing wrong with wanting data specific for a bullet even if one can extrapolate or substitute data.

Nothing "wrong" about wanting info, even if it's useless trivia. But .... it IS useless. ?


Nose profile don't matter. But bearing surface does.

Yeah, a little I suppose. So does the alloy, lube, gas check, bullet diameter vs. the bore diameter, the bore surface, the chamber and throat probably more than the bearing surface. But it's all cast stuff. At the bullet's hardest, longest, largest it's so much softer than steel that agonizing over specific load data minutiae isn't even helpful.

Bottom line, we all want what we want no matter if it's relevant to the job at hand or not. But, being aggravated at Lee and not Lyman, RCBS, NOE, Hensley & Gibbs, et al, for not spoon feeding us a lot of measureless modest pressure variations for every specific cast bullet seems more than a bit odd.

Doesn't matter and I don't much care anyway. Maybe I've been doing this stuff so long I've forgotten how complicated it is.

[cwtebay]

Nothing "wrong" about wanting info, even if it's useless trivia. But .... it IS useless. ?



Yeah, a little I suppose. So does the alloy, lube, gas check, bullet diameter vs. the bore diameter, the bore surface, the chamber and throat probably more than the bearing surface. But it's all cast stuff. At the bullet's hardest, longest, largest it's so much softer than steel that agonizing over specific load data minutiae isn't even helpful.

Bottom line, we all want what we want no matter if it's relevant to the job at hand or not. But, being aggravated at Lee and not Lyman, RCBS, NOE, Hensley & Gibbs, et al, for not spoon feeding us a lot of measureless modest pressure variations for every specific cast bullet seems more than a bit odd.

Doesn't matter and I don't much care anyway. Maybe I've been doing this stuff so long I've forgotten how complicated it is.Well said, and I do hope none of us lose the beauty and allure of the complexity of this!!!

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[Bazoo]

What I'd like to see, and buy, would be a cast bullet manual, that tested not only bullets by lee and others, but tested various lubes and alloys as well. Useless yeah, but it'd be interesting.

[cwtebay]

How many variables would have to be in such a book to be anything but a novelty? Casting temperature, alloy composition, boolit sizing, cooling technique, ambient temperature, elevation, brass used, crimp technique / tension, etc, etc ad nauseum. The major jacketed data has all of that. What do you think the price of moulds will go to if that sort of data is accumulated by a manufacturer? What do you think the book would cost if it was done third party?
The quest isn't always the destination, but the journey that is the appeal.

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[dtknowles]

People especially beginners need more data. They don't have expertise like the old obnoxious hands so it would be nice to see more data.

Tim

[Bazoo]

I read everything I can get my eyes on pertaining to the subject of reloading and casting, guns, shooting, and hunting.

[fcvan]

no matter what is said or implied, Elmer Keith blew up and re-welded many 44 Colts while developing the 44 Magnum. I know less about the 357 M from 20 year prior, only that the larger frame 38/44 was part of the deal.

Flash forward, not all chambers are the same, not all bores are the same, not all loads should be the same. What works in my 8 3/8" M57 shoots well but hard in my Dad's 4", but is okay in my Brother's 6" M57, or his 10" Contender. I know it works well in my Marlin 1894C Lever 41 Magnum. Load for what you shoot, keep those load withing tested specs.