Casting with pure tin

[Caswell Ranch]

Apart from the cost concerns, has anyone cast with pure tin for smoothbore. If shooting in competition it may have an advantage as velocity is your friend with a smoothbore and paper is the target. I just cast some .600 for .62cal/20 gauge and to be honest I see no problem using them for hunting within the range I would use them (50 ish yards and less). I recover all my projectiles from practice so cost can be reduced.
May also be a projectile for shooters in the Peoples Republic of California as none lead/none toxic, I cast some .440RB to test in my Pedersoli Kentucky .45cal , normally run .445RB with 10 thou patch in that rifle but will try the tin ball with thick patch.

[Martin Luber]

They might be too hard for good work with black?

[Drm50]

I have cast straight tin for 25/20 and 32/20. Was shooting factory dupe velocities of lead. Shot ok but no gain over standard mix.

[Caswell Ranch]

Martin Luber, Please define "good work".
They are too hard for sure if trying to impress rifling into the ball with the fabric patch, this is why I'm interested in smoothbore but I'm willing to try it in a rifled barrel with loose ball fit and thick patch also, but again my real interest is with smoothbore and patched tin ball with card and/or cushion wad under it.

[Caswell Ranch]

Drm50, for the same powder drop as lead the tin should have a faster muzzle velocity because of less weight.
The .600 RB in lead is 325 grains and in tin is 210 grains.

[John McCorkle]

Right but think in relation to it's ballistic coefficient too. On extreme example let's say that roundball is now made of aluminum... weight of something like 70 or 80 grains. It will have incredibly fast velocity but she'd that velocity by the time you get 20 yards downrange.

The effects of air resistance on that ball of less dense material will remove all or any gains in velocity with each yard downrange the target moves. I am not near any charts to do calculations but a tin ball will be less dense and be effected by wind (both resistance and crosswinds) and at some point the different materials (lead and tin) would have exactly the same velocity... likely before you get to your target...

So a tin ball will move from zero to ten yards in a lightning fast hurry...by 20 is slowed significantly and by 30 or 40 they prob would be similar in velocity (those are spitball numbers by the way nothing to take to the bank...but the idea is what I'm trying to say... coefficients matter too)

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[NoZombies]

I've been shooting zinc in smoothbores for a little while. I like the results so far, but I need to do some more testing.

[Caswell Ranch]

Round-ball Ballistic Calculator

1850
-Muzzle Velocity (fps)
0.60
-Caliber (in)
210.0
-Ball Weight (gr)
0.5
-Sight Height (in)
75
-Sighting Distance (yds)
0
-Crosswind (mph)
70
-Temperature (deg F)
Sea Lvl
-Altitude
Yards..Vel....Energy...Drop...Drift....TOF(sec)

0 1850 1596 -0.5 0.0 0.000
2 1819 1543 -0.3 0.0 0.003
4 1789 1492 -0.2 0.0 0.006
6 1760 1444 -0.0 0.0 0.009
8 1722 1383 0.1 0.0 0.013
10 1695 1340 0.3 0.0 0.016
15 1610 1208 0.6 0.0 0.026
20 1540 1105 0.9 0.0 0.035
25 1468 1004 1.2 0.0 0.045
30 1403 917 1.4 0.0 0.055
35 1340 838 1.5 0.0 0.066
40 1281 765 1.6 0.0 0.078
45 1229 704 1.6 0.0 0.090
50 1183 652 1.6 0.0 0.102
75 1029 494 0.0 0.0 0.171
100 930 403 -4.2 0.0 0.248
125 849 336 -11.5 0.0 0.332
150 778 282 -22.9 0.0 0.424
175 710 235 -39.4 0.0 0.525
200 646 195 -62.2 0.0 0.636
225 586 160 -93.0 0.0 0.758
250 529 131 -133.6 0.0 0.892
275 476 106 -187.6 0.0 1.042
300 426 85 -257.6 0.0 1.208
325 379 67 -349.5 0.0 1.395
350 336 53 -469.1 0.0 1.605
375 295 41 -626.2 0.0 1.844
400 258 31 -831.3 0.0 2.115

This is one set of numbers, I will look up another calculator. BC of a round ball is bad no matter what. I will test run and chrono tomorrow also. The reason I'm even considering this is the 210 grain ball being close in weight to a .54 cal lead ball (.530) and as I noted before keeping with short ranges in competition smoothbore flintlock, velocity is key.

P.S. it's also about getting the velocity without having to run a heavy powder drop, fast lighter ball also lower recoil.

[Caswell Ranch]

Round-ball Ballistic Calculator

1600
-Muzzle Velocity (fps)
0.60
-Caliber (in)
210.0
-Ball Weight (gr)
0.5
-Sight Height (in)
75
-Sighting Distance (yds)
0
-Crosswind (mph)
70
-Temperature (deg F)
Sea Lvl
-Altitude
Yards..Vel....Energy...Drop...Drift....TOF(sec)

0 1600 1194 -0.5 0.0 0.000
2 1576 1158 -0.3 0.0 0.003
4 1545 1113 -0.1 0.0 0.007
6 1516 1071 0.1 0.0 0.011
8 1487 1031 0.3 0.0 0.015
10 1459 993 0.4 0.0 0.019
15 1389 900 0.8 0.0 0.030
20 1329 823 1.2 0.0 0.041
25 1275 758 1.5 0.0 0.052
30 1224 699 1.7 0.0 0.064
35 1175 644 1.9 0.0 0.077
40 1135 601 2.0 0.0 0.090
45 1103 567 2.0 0.0 0.103
50 1074 538 1.9 0.0 0.117
75 965 434 0.0 0.0 0.191
100 878 360 -4.7 0.0 0.272
125 804 301 -13.2 0.0 0.362
150 735 252 -26.1 0.0 0.459
175 670 209 -44.7 0.0 0.566
200 608 172 -70.7 0.0 0.684
225 550 141 -105.5 0.0 0.813
250 495 114 -152.2 0.0 0.957
275 444 92 -213.7 0.0 1.117
300 396 73 -294.6 0.0 1.296
325 352 58 -399.9 0.0 1.496
350 310 45 -539.1 0.0 1.724
375 272 34 -721.1 0.0 1.982
400 236 26 -962.0 0.0 2.278

Another with lower muzzle velocity (1,600fps). It may work out, that's what testing is for.
Brown Bess may be a test worth looking at with tin ball weight of 388 grains (.735RB). Down the road as I don't have one, Bess that is.

[RU shooter]

Try some . I'm interested in your results , in a smooth bore and a patched RB . I don't see why there would be any issues . Instead of pure tin maybe melt down some second hand store pewter . Your ball may cast a bigger dia than a pure or WW ball . The recoil will be less with the lighter ball regardless

[Caswell Ranch]

Have not had a chance to test this week (stuff and weather). Casting .600 with a Lee mold the ball measures .601 in tin, pure lead casts .599. I have a .438 RB Lyman mold that casts exactly that with pure lead and casts a .440 ball in tin.

I'm also going to test Lyman.45 Collar Button bullet in a Pedersoli .45 Kentucky flint, mold casts 145/146 grains with pure lead, will only cast lead for this mold and run through a sizer down to .451, as cast they are .460. Very similar to the Nessler bullet to me.

The Lyman 450229 Minie casts a .452 lead bullet coming in at 138 grains, CG is forward and makes the Kentucky flint with 6 thou rifling and 1 in 48 twist a tack driver out to 175 yards, velocity can match round ball.
I have to say I'm really liking smoothbore and will probably transition to smoothbore only (no rear sight).274413274414

[Thundermaker]

Definitely interesting. I was also wondering about zinc as well, though I don't think it would qualify as "non-toxic" shot.

[GregLaROCHE]

I always like to count on a bit of obturation to get the best seal possible. My main source for lead is range scrap at around 12-14 BHN. I’m always looking for pure lead for my muzzle loaders.

[Caswell Ranch]

I always like to count on a bit of obturation to get the best seal possible. My main source for lead is range scrap at around 12-14 BHN. I’m always looking for pure lead for my muzzle loaders.

I agree about wanting some obturation with patch ball loaded directly on the powder or if loading conical, Minie bullet . Obturation is far more important in rifled barrels. Even with obturation I have found some guns benefit when using a card or fiber wad on the powder for better seal, my Pedersoli RM Hawkens shoots the Lee R.E.A.L. pure lead 300 grain conical very well (2" group at 100yds, 6" at 200yds) if a wad is used , this gun has 1 in 65 twist and 11 thou rifling, if wad is not used it shoots like a bad patterning shotgun. Bullet still obturates but wad helps seal as pressure builds to level needed to obturate a .54 cal.

With smoothbore I feel it does not need it , I load ball almost the same as shot as many do (I think), powder, over powder card, fiber cushion wad, patched ball (.601 ball with 10 thou fabric) , snug but not tight. This method seals the gas, only thing not the same as shot is no over shot card.

P.S. patch for ball is lubed with a 50/50 mix of bees wax and lard. I think pure lead needs about 7,100 psi and WW need about 15,000 psi to obturate. Not 100% on the numbers but I'm not far off.

[Caswell Ranch]

Definitely interesting. I was also wondering about zinc as well, though I don't think it would qualify as "non-toxic" shot.

Be careful casting zinc as some electric pots have had a problem with burning holes in the pot, do an internet search and I think you will find it regarding Lee pot/furnace, my paperwork from Lee notes "not for melting Zinc, Silver" etc.

[Caswell Ranch]

I know the following is in shotshell but it gives an idea of BP pressure and smoothbore, info is from Hodgdon (GOEX)274568274569

[freakonaleash]

Who said velocity was a good thing in a smoothbore?

[Caswell Ranch]

Who said velocity was a good thing in a smoothbore?

Most of the top competitive smoothbore shooters. With no rotational stability helping, it stands to reason the faster you can get the projectile from muzzle to target the less time gravity and wind have to change it's path.

[freakonaleash]

Most of the top competitive smoothbore shooters. With no rotational stability helping, it stands to reason the faster you can get the projectile from muzzle to target the less time gravity and wind have to change it's path.

That has not been my experience in the past 40 years. How big of powder charge are you throwing?

[Caswell Ranch]

What part has not been your experience in the past 40 years Mike, wind has been wind and gravity has been gravity a lot longer ;).
As far as top competitive shooters, I know you attend Friendship, check with the guys at NMLRA along with MLIAC.

Almost forgot, 80 grains of 3F with .601RB, 1780 fps, will test more to confirm and picture test targets.
Will be testing Tin ball with 2F and 1-1/2F shortly when the rain stops for a day or two, Looking to find very light recoil load with good to very good velocity and accuracy (small task).
May get a .575 or 590RB mold to try also.

[Caswell Ranch]

Calculator info for tested load below, next time out I will put the chrono at 50 yards and then at 100 yds to see if numbers are holding true to calculator, I'm sure the numbers will not be correct as the calculator is formatted for a lead ball, momentum lose of .601 ball (surface area) being 210 grains is the unknown. The .440 tin ball I noted on one of the posts above is 83.4 grains, get into that one soon.


Round-ball Ballistic Calculator

1780
-Muzzle Velocity (fps)
0.60
-Caliber (in)
210.0
-Ball Weight (gr)
0.5
-Sight Height (in)
50
-Sighting Distance (yds)
0
-Crosswind (mph)
70
-Temperature (deg F)
Sea Lvl
-
Yards..Vel....Energy...Drop...Drift....TOF(sec)

0 1780 1477 -0.5 0.0 0.000
2 1751 1430 -0.4 0.0 0.003
4 1723 1384 -0.3 0.0 0.006
6 1687 1327 -0.2 0.0 0.010
8 1661 1286 -0.1 0.0 0.013
10 1627 1234 -0.0 0.0 0.017
15 1548 1117 0.2 0.0 0.027
20 1482 1024 0.3 0.0 0.036
25 1409 926 0.4 0.0 0.047
30 1346 845 0.5 0.0 0.058
35 1291 777 0.4 0.0 0.069
40 1238 714 0.4 0.0 0.081
45 1190 661 0.2 0.0 0.093
50 1148 614 0.0 0.0 0.106
75 1012 477 -2.5 0.0 0.176
100 916 391 -7.6 0.0 0.254
125 837 327 -16.1 0.0 0.340
150 766 274 -28.9 0.0 0.434
175 699 228 -46.6 0.0 0.536
200 636 188 -71.1 0.0 0.649
225 576 155 -103.8 0.0 0.773
250 520 126 -147.0 0.0 0.910
275 467 102 -203.5 0.0 1.062
300 418 81 -277.0 0.0 1.231
325 372 64 -373.5 0.0 1.422
350 329 50 -498.5 0.0 1.636
375 289 39 -662.8 0.0 1.880
400 252 30 -878.1 0.0 2.158