38 special ammunition question

[Ohiomike]

Morning and Merry Christmas

I regularly shoot my father in law’s WW2 SandW Navy Victory Model 38special revolver. For fun, I purchased the following Cowboy action ammunition from Buffalo Arms: 38 Special 148 Grain Lead Hollow Base Wad Cutter Smokeless, muzzle velocity 656fps. The OAL is 1.24 inches. What do you think about using this underlength ammunition in the revolver?

thanks

Mike
Charleston, SC

[DAFzipper]

What makes you think it's short? I've shot plenty of full wadcutters that barely stuck out of the case.

Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk

[Maven]

I have a heavy bbl'd S & W Mod. 10 [.38Spl.] through which I fire wadcutters that are essentially flush with the case mouths and longer, semi wad cutters. No problems with cylinder or bore leading or accuracy with either.

Merry Xmas and Go Buckeyes!

[heebs]

Shoot it and have fun. Merry Christmas!

[Ohiomike]

Mike. Thanks!

[ShooterAZ]

I think that ammunition will likely be quite accurate in that revolver. I also load my wadcutters essentially flush to the case mouth.

[Ohiomike]

I have a heavy bbl'd S & W Mod. 10 [.38Spl.] through which I fire wadcutters that are essentially flush with the case mouths and longer, semi wad cutters. No problems with cylinder or bore leading or accuracy with either.

Merry Xmas and Go Buckeyes!

Next Friday!

[Walks]

I used to have the same Revolver.
Shot many 1,000's of #358495 and H&G #50 seated; bullet flush with case mouth. Only enough crimp to close the case mouth to the front driving band.

[Winger Ed.]

It'll be fine. Those are at the pressure, or lower than what it was designed to eat.
Just clean the cylinders when ya get done.
You may or may not have a 'crude ring' trying to build up.

[bangerjim]

I shoot wad cutters and round balls all the time out of my revolvers with NO problem. Some are flush with the end of the brass. I only watch the OAL spec in semi auto pistoles.

As said, watch for that "toilet bowl" ring forming and clean it out. I have never had that problem with any loads I have made.

Shoot away!

[JoeJames]

Shoot it and have fun. Merry Christmas!Agree 100%. Wadcutters are either seated flush, or crimped a little at the top crimp groove. My old S&W Victory Model loves flush seated wad cutters. Basically one hole groups at 15 yards. Enjoy!

[Murphy]

I have to go along with heebs and JoeJames. 2.7 grains of Bullseye and a full wadcutter bullet seated flush, or in the crimp groove at the top is a hard load to beat for just plain having fun. That, and teaching others new to centerfire handguns. Kind of like a big .22 LR. Plus, it makes a nice, clean hole for the beginner to see where there shot just went.

On another note about shooting wad cutters. In years gone by, full wad cutters seemed to be the rule for law enforcement training (at least in Oklahoma). Once you've gotten proficient at quickly loading a cylinder full with wad cutters? Stuffing it full with with any bullet that has a nose on it will seem like a dream come true for speed.

Murphy

[Alferd Packer]

the lite target loads are easy to clean out of the cylinder.
it's only when you shoot hot .38 loads that it beco.es harder to clean.
then, it's best to use the full length .357 shells.

[44magLeo]

Cartridge OAL is not one set figure. Different bullets when properly seated have different OAL's.
If you read most any reloading manual you can easily see how different bullets require different OAL's.
Most any 38 Spec load can be shot in most any 38 Spec pistol. Just h ave to watch for the +P loads some 38 Spec pistols are not as strong as others. If in doubt just use standard 38 spec loads.
Those Cowboy loads are at a low pressure level to reduce recoil for faster shooting in Cowboy Action Shooting events.
Leo

[MOC031]

I competed in PPC for years; can't remember a factory load or any of my equally accurate wadcutter loads that weren't flush seated at the mouth of the case.

A friend who still competes in PPC tells me the latest thing in the pursuit of PPC accuracy are loads where the bullet is seated well INSIDE the case. I am going to ask him more about that the next time we talk. He's been a Distinguished Master for years; so he doesn't do things just because it's the latest fad.

[WRideout]

I have been shooting 38 Short Colt in my S&W Mod 19, since a friend gave me a box. No problems at all, and they are definitely short cases.

Wayne

[Ohiomike]

Happy New Year!

Thanks all for your advice. I’m now convinced that I’ll safely enjoy shooting the wadcutters in the Victory 38special revolver.

Tuesday, my wife and I next hit the range. I’ll be benching three cartridges: Winchester 130gr FMJ OAL 1.43 inches; Buffalo Arms 148gr Cowboy Action smokeless wadcutter OAL 1.33 and a Federal Gold Medal 148gr wadcutter OAL 1.16.

Let’s see what we get!

Mike

[Ohiomike]

Good afternoon. We shot a few toys at the range today, including the Navy Victory in 38 special. I tried both wadcutters: Federal Gold Medal Match 148gr and the Buffalo Arms 148 Cowboy Action Smokeless. Both shot very well, I think I preferred the BA as it kicked a bit less. It’s going to be fun for target practice.

But here’s the thing....I have what looks like a narrow ring of lead in each cylinder where the end of the wadcutter sat. Maybe 10 thousands. Barrel is pristine after cleaning. I have had a burn ring of powder before and it’s always been easy to clean. This is different. Silvery. Lead buildup?

Thoughts?

Thanks!
Mike
Charleston, Sc.

[Sam Sackett]

Ohiomike, what you are seeing is probably lead buildup. I shoot a lot of cowboy shooting with very light loads. I get the dreaded lead ring in the cylinders of my Ruger Vaqueros if I load too light.
You mentioned that the BA were less powerful. They were also loaded longer. I am thinking they developed less pressure and didn’t obdurate the bullet enough to get a good seal. Might have been a little flame cutting of the bullet depositing lead in the cylinders.
You might want to try the different loads separately and see if one does better than the others.
The lead should come right out with a little cooler chore boy wrapped around a bore brush.
Sam

[Winger Ed.]

That's part of the 'crud ring'.
You'll get it in everything.
Ya just need to be aware of it when firing any shorter cartridge you shoot in a long chamber.
.38s in a .357, .44Spec. in a .44Mag, .22shorts in a .22LR, etc. It's normal.

Just clean it out regularly, especially before ya let it build up and then chamber up the longer versions.

If I'm going to the range with a .357Mag and .38s, I shoot the .357s first,
then switch over to the short wad cutters, or .38s.

If I shoot a bunch of .38s first, sometimes the .357s don't really want to chamber due to the crud ring.
I figure that would raise the chamber pressure with the added resistance of boolit release tension.
Never had a problem shooting the short ones after I'm done with the longer Mags.

[Ohiomike]

Great advice. Did you mean copper chore boy? Thanks. Mike.

[44magLeo]

Yes, the copper is softer than the steel of your cylinder but harder than the lead. It will remove the build up very well.
I have a Lewis lead remover. It uses a rubber expansion plus with round pieces of brass screening. The brass does the scrubbing and the rubber expansion plug provide the pressure to hold the brass agaisnt the bore. It also works well for cleaning the crud in the forcing cone.
Leo

[David2011]

Mike,

Welcome to Castboolits! Nothing in a lifetime of shooting has been as much fun as .38 wadcutters. Have fun with them.

David

[Ohiomike]

Mike,

Welcome to Castboolits! Nothing in a lifetime of shooting has been as much fun as .38 wadcutters. Have fun with them.

David

SandW 38special. Navy Victory Model.(Model 10)
Any ideas what’s causing each of the rings in the cylinders?
Ammunition used:
Winchester FMJ 130 gr target
Buffalo Arms 148 gr Lead wadcutter Cowboy Action smokeless
Federal 148 Lead wadcutter. Gold Medal.

Ps. I did really clean the cylinders.

Mike.

[44magLeo]

It looks like the ring I sometimes get from firing 38 Special in my 357 Mag. In my gun being a 357 the chamber is cut deep ewnough tso a 357 case fills the chamber. A 38 case doesn't. This leaves a gap between the case and the shoulder of the chamber. The boolit expands into this gap and a bit of lead gets shaved off.
Do you have a 357 mag case? if so try it in your gun. If it fits then your chambers are deeper than they need to be for the 38's. This is not a real problem as that ring is easy to clean out.
It could be the transition from chamber to throat is a bit rough. This can peel off a bit of lead.
Now why would the chamber be cut long? It could have been done at the factory, a bit of sloppy QA and went out the door. Highly likely as it might have been war production. In a hurry to fill contracts.
It could have been done after the Navy got it. In an armory refab they may have been cut deeper to allow cases from war production that were made a bit long. Or possibly cut long to chamber 357 mags.
A bit of measuring and close inspection of thechambers and throats might reveal the issue.
If it's just rough, polishing it out might be all it needs.
Leo

[Cary Gunn]

Ohiomike,

Not sure I'm seeing anything in the photo other than the normal chamber/throat cut. Are you seeing a build-up of gunk or leading that's not showing up in your photo?

Just wondering.

Happy trails,

-- Cary Gunn --

[facetious]

Could it just be the stain from the powder burning like you get on the front of the cylinder ? You said you gave it a good cleaning but the stain could still be there.

I have found a 410 brass brush works good for cleaning cylinders . If it is just a stain I wouldn't worry about it. Flits will clean the stain on the front and inside if you want to get rid of it.

[Ohiomike]

Nothing other than the silvery color at the throat cut. What should the throat cut look like? Thanks!

[onelight]

The cylinder has 2 diameters inside the transition between the 2 is often a square cut but can be a taper of sorts.
After cleaning if you look through the chambers with good light you should be able to see how it is machined and any crud that has built up in front of the case mouth.
The crud that builds up at the case mouth can be difficult to get out and takes some extra steps to remove particularly if the crud has accumulated over a long period of time.
In my experience unless you shoot different length cases like 38 in 357 or 22 short in long rifle it does not cause functioning problems unless really bad . But it can make it difficult to chamber or extract the longer case if it builds up from the shorter case. Look at some new guns when you have the opportunity and you should be able to see what they look like with with no crud buildup .
I try to keep it crud cleaned out.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'll see if I can link the chamber drawings for that cartridge. As onelight stated, there's a transition from portion of the cylinder that contains the cartridge to the throat. I believe that is what you are seeing.


Go to page 47 of this document and you will find the drawings for 38 Special.
https://saami.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.3-CFP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

[bedbugbilly]

If you think that is short then I must really be a bad person when I shoot 38 Colt Short out of my 38s and 357s,

[Ohiomike]

275668

[Old School Big Bore]

There's also the possibility that the revolver started life as a .38 S&W and was "rechambered" by some surplus vendor to accommodate .38 spl, which was sometimes shoddily done. I've seen examples that would chamber .357 Mags, which is a recipe for disaster. Ohiomike, does the caliber marking on the gun say specifically "38 Special" or just "38", or some other variation?
You can obtain 9.3 mm or .375 size rifle bore brushes, or specific .38/357 chamber brushes, that will fit your chambers without being crushed down. These slightly fatter brushes can be mounted on a S&W type loop-handled rod and manually turned in the chamber with great results, or you can spin them in a drill motor to speed things up. Just don't shove them in and withdraw them without turning, or even a bronze brush can make brinell marks when the wires are forced to scoot around.
Ed <><