357446 - hp

[Ben]

I sent Buckshot my Lyman single cav. 357446 several days ago for hollow pointing. It arrived today. As usual , Buckshot's work was beyond my expectations.

I had to fire up the pot to see what these little puppies were going to look like. I couldn't be more pleased ! !

Rick made me 2 pins of different diameters for the hollow point portion of the mold.

I specified a .160 pin as I felt that for 38 Spec. velocities from my experience that .160 would offer some real impressive expansion at 900 fps.

He also sent me a pin of smaller configuration that seems to be just about ideal for the 1,200 - 1,300 fps range in the 357 Mag.

In the 1st 2 photos , the mold is sooted with a butane lighter.

With gas check prices continuing to climb, I'm hoping that this mold will do " double duty ", casting bullets for my Officer's Model Match , 38 Spec, and my Smith , Model 19, 4 " loaded in 357 Mag. brass.

Photos below :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/357446/PICT0002-1.jpg



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/357446/PICT0003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/357446/PICT0008.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/357446/PICT0010.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/357446/PICT0004.jpg

Here is the bullet in solid form, lubed, sized and ready to shoot :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/357446/PICT0005.jpg

[Blammer]

Awesome!

[Old Ironsights]

That is pretty...

I really need to do a monster cavity on a 200gr boolit for pb catsneeze loads...

[Glen]

That's a fine bullet, and it shoots quite well. John Taffin gave me one several years ago and I think of him every time I cast with it:

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellJohnsMould.htm

I just got a 358446 back from Erik where I had him convert it to what he calls "cup-point". It's a wide, shallow, conical cavity that just looks mean! I have some cast up and test loads assembled, it's just that the weather has gotten nasty and I haven't been able to shoot them yet. Ed Harris has been reporting some outstanding results with Erik's cup-point bullets over on the CBA website.

[Heavy lead]

Very nice Ben, I think I recognize that mould.:-D

[GLL]

Ben:

Rick is a true craftsman !

BEAUTIFUL BULLET !

Thank you for the great photos !

Jerry

[Ben]

Heavy lead :

If you'd have made this mod, I doubt I'd have ever seen this one.

Jerry:

My photos aren't in the league with yours ! ! You're very welcome however.

Ben

[94Doug]

you guys make me jealous some days, the casting is better than mine, the photos.... I think even Bens hands are cleaner than mine. But really nice job an all counts!

[Buckshot]

............It's amazing how Ben's pictures always make them look better then when I have them :-) In fact awile back I think I saw where he'd polished and Tru-Oiled one of the wooden knobs. Just can't leave it alone :groner:

..............Buckshot

[copdills]

Those boolits look great , he does great work :castmine:

[cajun shooter]

If that mold becomes a burden and you have no place to send it, I'll be more than glad to send you my shipping info.

[FN in MT]

Just snagged a #357446 double cavity at a show for $20 this past weekend. Hollow pointing it sounds like a great idea!! Would anyone change the pin diameters?? Otherwise I'll do the same.

FN in MT

[MakeMineA10mm]

Ben,
What do those wind up weighing with the larger HP pin in place?

I'm having a 358156 sent to Rick for a very similar pin style as that. Should be quite an expander, especially at 357 velocities with the gas check on her... :mrgreen:

[Ben]

I'll weigh the ones with the large cavity for you in the a.m. and get back with their weight.

Yes, the ones with the large cav. at 1,200 fps would be a " flying bomb ."

Ben

[Dennis Eugene]

Great post with great photos. I been needing a 357 hollow point to go with my 44 and 41now I know what I'm going to do. Dennis

[Ben]

MakeMineA10mm:

Here is your answer on the one with the large cav. in the nose :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/PICT0001-33.jpg

A quote by Glen E. Fryxell

" The gas-checked Thompson 358156 HP was a better seller, in part because of it's GC and in part because of Skeeter's fondness for it, but the 358446 HP is nonetheless an excellent bullet with it's own unique place in history. It provides the original weight of cast HP that Phil Sharpe used to develop the .357 Magnum load data 70 years ago, which is a very useful (and commonly overlooked) weight for both of these perennial classic cartridges. "

[beagle]

Now, I have a 357446HP that I've never been able to get to shoot. If you boys just gotta have one, I may be talked out of it. PM me./beagle

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks Ben!!

Awesome boolit. I found this thread, because I sent Buckshot a request for a particular type of HP spud I wondered if he could make, and he sent me this link, because my idea was nearly identical to yours. (On mine, I was thinking a more tapered point on the spud, rather than the blunt one on yours, but pin dia., length, and taper were all nearly identical to what you thought up!)

I can't wait to get my 358156 from him!

[Ben]

MakeMineA10mm :

I have a small micro - mini bench grinder with fine cut grinding wheel on one side and a soft buffing wheel on the other side.

I can take a drill bit ( in my case I specify with Buckshot, a .160 dia. HP pin for my 38 / 357 dia. HP mold applications ) and shape it just about any way I want.

The depth of the HP pin in the mold and the shape on the very end of the pin is obviously left to the discretion of the owner.

Good Luck with your project,

Ben

[MakeMineA10mm]

A quote by Glen E. Fryxell

" The gas-checked Thompson 358156 HP was a better seller, in part because of it's GC and in part because of Skeeter's fondness for it, but the 358446 HP is nonetheless an excellent bullet with it's own unique place in history. It provides the original weight of cast HP that Phil Sharpe used to develop the .357 Magnum load data 70 years ago, which is a very useful (and commonly overlooked) weight for both of these perennial classic cartridges. "

Those two points Glen made are very true. I rather wish that Thompson had made his 156 design just a little heavier, so in solid-nose it would throw 160-165gr SWCs... HPs would be around 150-158 that way...

In addition to the two reasons Glen mentioned, I'm using the Thompson 156 design (and the custom Plain Base group buy version here from Matt) because I load most of my ammo on a Dillon 650. With the dual-crimp groove boolit design, I can switch between 38 Spl. loads and 357 loads, by just changing the seating depth to the lower crimp groove on the seating die and continue loading in 38 Spl. brass.

Skeeter did that to avoid paying for the more expensive 357 brass, but I find it handy for less messing with my die set ups in my tool-head.

(And, FYI, my "357" loads in 38 brass loaded to longer length are not max 357 loads, either. They're well above 38+P, but at least a grain below max 357 loads with AA#9 and a grain and a half below max with W231/HP38.)

My mould, check, and letter are on the way to Buckshot. Can't wait to see the results!

[Ben]

MakeMineA10mm :

You will be well pleased. Rick does excellent work ! !

Ben

[MakeMineA10mm]

MakeMineA10mm :

You will be well pleased. Rick does excellent work ! !

Ben

You are right! I just got my mould tonight, and will try to get some pics posted sometime this weekend. Buckshot really out-did himself. Totally exceeded all my expectations!

[MakeMineA10mm]

Well, here's the pin that is so similar to yours. Basically everything is identical to yours, except for the shape of the tip at the end of the pin. I wanted a taper on there just in case the hydraulic action was needed to keep expansion occuring. I think it's overkill, because the boolit will most likely be expanding due to the cavity anyway, but what the heck, right?!? :mrgreen:

Can't wait to get some casted up and fired into water. Will have to test for the velocity range where it turns from a mushroom into an explosion... :Fire:

[Ben]

Your pics look GOOD !

Keep us posted with your test when you begin firing them for expansion.

Ben

[MakeMineA10mm]

Well, combination of nice weather, time away from work, and getting my new casting place started, I just had to fire up the lead pot and cast some of my Ben-inspired, Buckshot-produced 358156HPs!

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=179&pictureid=1035

Yes, the boolits are a little wrinkley and I've "mashed" them slightly with my herculean GC seater, but they'll shoot just fine. I only made about 60 with the Winchester-style HP spud and about 25 with the "Big Ben" (sorry Ben, but it fits so well, I'm gonna use it! :mrgreen: ) spud before the set screw came loose (and me without my allen wrenches handy....)

The best part is that these two cavity designs (my favorites of the four Buckshot made for me) create boolits of PERFECT weight for 38 & 357. The Big Ben HP weighs 146grs with GC and the Winchester-style weighs 158grs with GC. SPOT ON!!

I plan on loading the 146gr Big Ben HP in 38 Spl. with a mild (probably non +P) load of W231 for about 700fps out of a snubbie. (Bet it still expands with that alloy and HP cavity!)

The 158gr will be loaded in 357 Mag with a non-maximum load of AA#9 to achieve around 1250 fps out of a 4" to 6" revolver barrel.

Then, the expansion tests will begin. My wife is all jazzed about making ballistic gelatin, and there's a company in IL that makes it, so the order has been sent in. We Boolit Casters can do "real" expansion/penetration testing with our preferred projectiles, too!

I'll keep ya posted.

[Ben]

Keep us updated with your progress.

Ben

[jdgabbard]

Been waiting to see some tests done with gelatin for quite some time. Let us know the results...

[doghawg]

Would any care to speculate if this hollow pointing procedure would work on a 358477? I'm having trouble warming up to the round nose SWC....

[MakeMineA10mm]

I would say it would work dandy on it. That's my favorite plain base mould for that caliber, though this one that Ben had done is piquing my interest.

[Ben]

doghawg:

It is my opinion that the 477' would make a fine bullet to HP. It will end up a little bit lighter than some of the other 38 / 357 cast bullet designs but in the 38 Spec. that factor will do no harm and will allow a little bit of additional velocity.

Ben

[gon2shoot]

I've pretty well got myself convinced I don't need one, but you guys are making me argue with myself.

Now if it was for the daughters gun, that would be a different story wouldnt it?

[MakeMineA10mm]

Well, gon2shoot, let me make it a little harder for you! :mrgreen:

Instead of mixing up jello (which would have had to have been started a few days ago) and going to the range to do the expansion testing, I casted up some more HPs this morning. This time, I used the Lyman 44 Devastator and in a couple hours, got a few hundred:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=179&pictureid=1042

After awaiting for the equipment to cool off, brought them home and weighed some samples. They average 267grs, but there is a 1gr variance +/-, so 266-268grs. (This is out of my soft alloy of 50/50 WW/Pure + 1% tin.)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=179&pictureid=1040

Perhaps this week will be less crazy and we can mix up the gelatin and head for the range next weekend.

Regards,

[MakeMineA10mm]

Did not get to the range NOR did we get to mix gelatin this week. :cry:

Worse yet, I already know we won't get to it this coming week. :evil: (Wife says we need to have rummage sale.... :veryconfu )

But, I did get to cast up some more Hollow Points from that 358156 mould that Buckshot did for me. This time, I cast up some of the CUP Point spud design, and I got to thinking... (I know, VERY dangerous! :mrgreen: ) If I'm going to do a decent test with the gelatin, I should probably include some solid-nose 358156s, and to take out another variable, I should stick with my soft alloy. (After all, if the solid-nose SWC shape has any chance to expand at all, it would do better with the softer alloy...) So, I also cast up a small pile of them with the cavity in my two-cav. mould that was not hollow-pointed. (Believe it or not, I got higher reject rate from that cavity than the one that is hollow-pointed! Go figure!!!!)

Anyway, stats on these two "new" bullets are:

CUP Point - (same alloy of 50/50 WW to pure lead w/ 1% tin added) weight: 160grs. (Also of interest is that even though it is a genuine cup-shape, the hollow-point looks more tapered and deep than the spud. Optical illusion, but by appearance anyway, I believe these will work dandy at 357 Mag velocities.)

Solid-nose - (again, same alloy, which I call "Soft/HP alloy") weight: 165grs. (Interesting... If you go back and look at Ben and my last posts on the first page of this thread, I was lementing that the 156 design wasn't heavier to match up with the weights of the "original" 357 bullet. Yet, out of my soft alloy, and with these various pins - or in solid-nose format - these boolits hit those weights perfectly, as well as the desire for a mid-weight.)

I'm hoping for August 1st for the gelatin testing. Here's the regimine I've planned out. Let me know what you think.

146gr "Big Ben" HP loaded to standard pressure in 38 Spl. case (4.4grs W231), seated in upper/deeper-seating crimp groove, and fired from a 2" bbl. Colt SF-VI.

158gr "Winchester" HP loaded to low-end 357 ballistics (5.6grs W231) and seated out in lower/longer-seating crimp groove in 38 Spl. case, and fired from a 4" bbl. S&W 686.

165gr Solid-nose SWC loaded to low-end 357 ballistics (5.6grs W231) and seated out in lower/longer-seating crimp groove in 38 Spl. case, and fired from a 4" bbl. S&W 686. (This is hotter than any 38 Spl. +P+ and would indicate if the SWC has ANY chance at all of expansion in a 38 - which, even with this soft alloy, I doubt.)

158gr "Winchester" HP loaded to middle-upper 357 ballistics (12.5grs AA#9) and seated in upper/deeper-seating crimp groove in 357 Mag. case, and fired from a 4" bbl. S&W 686.

160gr "Cup-Point" HP loaded to middle-upper 357 ballistics (12.5grs AA#9) and seated in upper/deeper-seating crimp groove in 357 Mag. case, and fired from a 4" bbl. S&W 686.

165gr Solid-Nose SWC loaded to middle-upper 357 ballistics (12.5grs AA#9) and seated in upper/deeper-seating crimp groove in 357 Mag. case, and fired from a 4" bbl. S&W 686.

Anyone have a suggestion on distance to shoot the gelatin at? I've got to have room for the chrono out in front of the muzzle, plus a table to set the gelatin blocks on, so it will probably be at least 7 yards, which would be about right anyway. Also, with that broad of a range of tests to conduct, I'm not going to throw in more variables of barriers the FBI uses. (At least not in this session...)

[Sturgell]

Nothing really to add except I did a little penetration/water testing a few months ago (very informal to say the least.) Testing was done off of a flatbed into a 55 gallon plastic drum that had been cut in half and filled with water, shooting diagonally from corner to corner got 3ish feet of water before the bullet hit the other side of the drum.

Bullets designed for 9mm Luger 115 grain Winchester Silvertip and Speer Golddot fired at 1300 fps out of a 6 inch 357 demonstrated violent expansion and did not penetrate the full amount, bullet fragments is what was left on the bottom of the barrel.

A stiff load of unique under a 158 grain XTP showed very controlled expansion but did not penetrate fully.

A light load of unique under a 148 grain DEWC dented the hell out of the plastic on the backside of the barrel. No deformation.

3.6 grains of bullseye under a 158 grain SWC (bought not home cast) chrono'd on a cloudy day and I got 900-1000fps with a few error readings in the 7000 range lol, penetrated the full barrel went through the back side and through 2 inches of earth before stopping. No deformation.

My testing allowed me to conclude that my turtle shooting load is a 38 spl case with 3.6gr bullseye and a 158 SWC was the most suitable load for shooting creatures under water.

The loads where I didn't have a grain amount associated with them were loaded by a friend and testing partner. I memorize and write down my loads in a journal but not any one elses loads.