45-70 load data, trouble finding solid data

[Gmoney11mks]

Hey all,
Just started reloading for my 4570 and having some trouble finding solid load data for my current bullets.

I plan on using imr3031 or trailboss. I currently have about 50 400gn lrn and 100ish 500gn lrn. And thinking about ordering some acme 350gn rnfp.

I have 2 older manuals but neither have any lead data. Only fmj. And only 1 of them have data for a 500gn. It also says only for use in a ruger #1.

Can you all help me with some good starting loads for the above listed bullets?

If you need anymore info from me, I'm happy to provide all I can!

Thanks!!

[Winger Ed.]

I'd encourage getting the Lyman Cast loading book.

It covers cast loads with 3031, but there's also a lot of other info in there you'll find pretty handy.

[hpbear101]

Get the Lyman reloading manual (#50 is most current I have several versions on hand as their listed powders change over time), or the Lyman cast bullet manual. I also splurged this year and purchased a subscription to Loaddata.com, I shoot a lot of obsolete cartridges and Loaddata.com has data for many of them.

[quail4jake]

405 gr LRNFP and 13 gr Unique. Try it. Just try it.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

What rifle; there are different loads for various strength actions?

I'm using 36.5gn of 3031 behind a 420gn boolit in my 1886, or 12gn of Trailboss behind a 260gn plinking load.

https://i.imgur.com/YaFZpHBl.jpg?1

[sharps4590]

FMJ data for a 45-70? Really? I've never seen it. Not saying there isn't some out there but at last count I have 32 loading manuals from the 1930's to present and none have any FMJ data for the 45-70. All but maybe one or two have cast and jacketed bullet data but none for FMJ bullets and, as was mentioned, most have all three level of loads, except for the very oldest books.

As others have recommended, get the Lyman book, either or both, their cast bullet manual or their regular manual.

[pworley1]

http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Reloading/Reloading%20Manuals/

[Hickok]

http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Reloading/Reloading%20Manuals/Thanks for that post....really comes in handy!

[GregLaROCHE]

First, welcome to the forum. This is a great place to ask questions on all sorts of topics. Be sure to check out the search engine. There’s a lot of archived information there.

3031 works well with 45/70 rounds. I used to use it all the time. If you start to experiment with other powders, I would stay away from the slower ones, because they don’t always completely burn in that round.

As everyone has said, the Lyman Cast Bullet manual is probably the best first one to get. If you want to save$ consider buying a used copy. If you continue with this hobby, you most likely will end up with a bunch of manuals.

Good luck!

[Loudy13]

Hogdons reloading data page has load data for 405gr lead boolits and it has 3 different sets of load data depending on your type of rifle.

[Gmoney11mks]

Thanks for all the quick replies everyone! I'll check out the link posted after work today when I have time to read it.

I will definitely try and grab a couple different manuals. The one i have now are a hogdon and an older hornady. I found the 500gn info in the hornady manual. As far as fmj vs jacketed, i guess i assumed they were the same thing. So it's more than likely you were correct saying they were jacketed bullets and not fmj.

I did download a copy of the lyman cast bullet manual i found linked somewhere. It had some info, but had odd(to me) bullet weights. 293gn, 322gn etc.

I may eventually try the unique load posted, but right now, finding unique is the problem. And I'd like to use what I have first.

The rifle is a Winchester 1886.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

The 1886 is long enough to feed 500gn loads

https://i.imgur.com/Pv5TKjU.jpg

[Tim357]

The 1886 is long enough to feed 500gn loads

https://i.imgur.com/Pv5TKjU.jpg
Mercy! That is a fine lookin 86!

[Conditor22]

Welcome to CB

As previously mentioned there are 3 different power levels in the 45/70 platform
1) 1873 Springfield, rolling block and trapdoor----------------Softest loads
2) 1886 Winchester & 1895 Marlin
3) Ruger N0. 1 and No. 3 Only ----------------Stoutest loads

IF you use a load meant for a stouter gun you could blow your gun up

from Lyman 50th


https://i.imgur.com/LcKYBPR.jpg

[sharps4590]

Gmoney11, as you have seen, bullets come in a bewildering array of styles, types and materials. FMJ is when the entire bullet, nose and sides, except for the base most times, is covered in copper, cupro/nickel, steel or some other material harder than lead. They are not intended to expand and are most often seen in semi-auto handgun rounds, military cartridges and what the British call "solids" for dangerous game. Generally jacketed bullets have some amount of lead exposed at the nose or are of various hollow nose/core/point design and intended to expand.

I don't mean to sound condescending, it appeared you were perhaps unclear of the difference. If I did, tell me to shut up and go to my room without supper...and I'll comply.

And brother....that IS one fine lookin' '86!!

[John Boy]

http://stevespages.com/458_1.html

[richhodg66]

http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Reloading/Reloading%20Manuals/

Best book ever published on the subject.

For 100 yard target shooting, I have found either 12 grains of Unique or Herco works great with any cast bullet I've shot between about 300 and 450 grains. Skip the Trail boss and get something more efficient.

[Conditor22]

My problem with commercial cast 45/70 boolits (besides being too expensive :) ) is they a usually too small and too hard. My 45/70 likes/needs .459 dia.

favorite powders are 2400 and varget (so far)

[kootne]

This is a caliber specific compilation of just about everybodies reloading manual. I had one somewhere but couldn't find it. Must have loaned it out. Anyway, they do not reference SPG's BP handbook or Wolfe's Loading ammo for the original 45/70 Springfield but there is data from a bunch of other manuals. Likely your best $15 spent if you want to compare hopefully lab verified data.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LOADBOOKS-USA-45-70-45-70-Govt-COMPLETE-Reloading-Manual-NEW-Latest-Ed/301858311495?hash=item4648284d47:g:s~QAAMXQW7VREZr W

[Gmoney11mks]

Thanks again for all the replies! Very much appreciated. still trying to get a good handle on 45-70 loads, and the last thing I want to do is harm this particular gun. It's my great great grandfather's. It was handed down to me with the only 2 stipulations being I dont sell it and I dont drill any holes in it. Blowing it up wasn't mentioned, but I'm sure noone would be all to happy if I did. I would love to be able to keep handing this down to my son.

Bad *** Wallace, that is definitely one fine example!!

For everyone that's posted links or loads, thank you. Lots of reading to do for me. I sent my full size die back to grandpa as I was having issues with it. He wanted to test it in his press and see if it was a die issue or an issue with my press. He'll be sending something back my way as soon as he figures it out. For some reason when on my press it absolutely refused to full length size. You could literally lean on the press and it would just get stuck about 1/2 from the bottom. Thankfully I do have some brand new starliner brass that I should be able to, flare and load. So I can load up a few rounds, think i have 25 or so.

No, condescending at all. While aware of the differences a good explanation is always appreciated.

I'll be getting a few more manuals from him soon as well. I'll probably grab a couple more recent ones also. Guessing what my grandfather has are all fairly old manuals, so some newer ones will help with some of my other calipers!

I'm gonna start reading all the posted links and doing some more studying. So again much appreciated! So far loving these forums vs some of the others I've read. Everyone being helpful and not trying to scare of a newbie!

[Gmoney11mks]

The only issue I have with trying a different powder than what I currently have(3031 and trailboss), is availability right now. My locals, including the big box guys, are sold out of near everything. Some trading pages have some available, just not at a price I'm willing to pay. $50-100+ for a pound, no thanks. Lol.

The trailboss was given to me, so if I dont use it, not a huge deal. But kind of thought it'd be ok for a plinking round, not necessarily accurate, but it'll throw lead down range.

From what I have read so far, I think I may start with 37gr of 3031 under the 500s. I'd like a lighter bullet, but have 100 of these and 50 400s.

Will probably order some 350gn from acme. Cost doesn't seem terrible at 25 bucks for 100.

Powder I will try others when they become more readily available.

Also curious when you guys test new loads, how many do you load up? With my 223 and 6.5 I've been doing 5 rounds of 3 varying charges, and working from there. Same concept for the 4570?

[Conditor22]

405 grn trail boss, start around 10 grains and work up

[Norske]

My 1967 44th edition Lyman manual lists a "factory equivalent" load of a 405 gr cast bullet and 38.5gr IMR 3031. That edition Lyman manual may have been the first loading manual where every load was pressure tested in an independent lab.

[Gmoney11mks]

So I picked up a few more manuals the last few days. And I think I have a good handle on a starting load for both the 400s and 500s. Went ahead and ordered some acme 405 as well.

My full length sizing die is still with my grandfather for testing. So I have a question about whether or not brand new starline brass needs a full length size or not?

Starline says no. But it seems the forums are split on yes or no. One post I read from here(I think), says always fl size new brass. But even in that thread it was a mix of size it or just load it.

So, to size or not??

Thanks for all the help everyone!!!

[Winger Ed.]

I'll be getting a few more manuals from him soon as well. I'll probably grab a couple more recent ones also. Guessing what my grandfather has are all fairly old manuals, so some newer ones will help with some of my other calipers!

Read & compare all of them.
I've compared pages in old vs. new books and they change them around frequently rather than just reprinting old data.
Some powders listed as the best there is for a calibre in a old book, sometimes isn't even listed in the newer one by the same company.

[Stephen Cohen]

Google ADI load data for Trail Boss data for all three levels of data for 45/70. I would suggest you read all ADI has to say about using this powder as it can have some nasty effects if not used correctly, as all powders do. As others have said, get a good reloading manual and read it till you understand the whole process. Regards Stephen

[bigted]

I absolutely love trail boss in my 45-70's. Try 14 grains under your 405's. You will love them.

As to your problem with your full length die ... make sure to lube your cases. Sounds like trying to full size with dry cases ... especially beings you can only get them into the die half way. For lever guns like your "86", certain amount of sizing sounds reasonable. However another reason for only getting your cases half way into the die could be caused by the chamber in your 86 being large, bulged or pitted badly enough that your brass is swelling into a big chamber ... how do they extract after firing?

[Gmoney11mks]

Cases were well lubed. This was an issue with brand new brass as well as fired brass. I sent the die back to my grandfather and he tried it o his press, same issue. He said he saw a bulge in the die. I did not see it, but dont have near the experience he has with this stuff. I'll take his word for it.

Ordered a new lee die set, and he'll be sending me another fl die he had. So I'll have 2 die sets. Probably didn't need to order the new set, but I found a good deal on an in stock set and grabbed it. Dies and bullets will be here monday or Tuesday. then I'll get to loading. Weather out here is a bit cold for me to rush to the desert to test, but I'll see if I cant get to an indoor range next weekend.

I'll try that trailboss load also. I think with the suggestions here and all the manuals I picked yo, I have a great starting point for both powders.

So again thank you all for the help. I'll let y'all know how the loading goes!

[Gmoney11mks]

Anyone have any idea the maximum coal for the 1886 action?

The lyman cast book is showing the 500gr coal as 2.835, just curious if itll fit. I'll obviously check once I get a few actually loaded up, but dont want to get them stuck in the mag tube or anything. I can always run it single shot no issue.