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View Full Version : Playbook for "End times" right from the Lords lips



Alabama358
12-21-2020, 11:55 PM
Jesus lays out "His" end times playbook very specifically and precisely. Sometimes folks have a hard time seeing it clearly but its all right there.


Matthew chapter 24
King James Version

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Above the Disciples are asking Jesus for the specific details of the rapture (the sign of his coming) and the end of the world

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Above Jesus says "When" not "Before" you see the abomination of Desolation (which happens at the half way point of Daniel's 70th week 3-1/2 years in) Now it is time to get stirred up because it is almost game time

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Christ tells us not to believe any stories of secret comings, he reiterates this a few times for good reason.
You will know when the coming of the Son of man is. Imagine Lightening filling the sky from East all the way to the West

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

"And Then", speaking chronologically... after everything he had just finished laying out for his disciples "verses 1 - 28". Sun, moon & stars are darkened and then Christ comes in the clouds

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Time to go home "gather together his elect (that's us) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other"

On the other side of the coin, there will be the people that turn down salvation... there is still the last half of Daniel's 70th week (Final 3 1/2 years) the Wrath of God that is going to very rough for them. Much worst then the previous 3 1/2 years of Tribulation. DON'T be Them, Salvation is a gift and is free all you have to do is accept it.

There it is Folks... The Lords "End Times Playbook", right from his own lips. Glory be to God

GhostHawk
12-22-2020, 10:11 AM
Amen!

exile
12-27-2020, 03:16 AM
Are you saying that this passage advocates for a mid-tribulation Rapture scenario? Or perhaps for the idea that the Rapture and the Second Coming are the same event? I am not trying to be argumentative, I am simply curious?

exile

1hole
12-27-2020, 04:39 PM
Are you saying that this passage advocates for a mid-tribulation Rapture scenario?

A mid-trib rapture theory is held by many but I see no way it can be true because the rapture is going to be a sudden surprise without warning, right? Thus, anyone with a functional brain will understand the seven year tribulation is happening and, from that, it would be easy to know when a mid-trib rapture must be. We're told no one can know when the rapture will happen so it follows that a known mid-trib (or a post trib) rapture can't be true!


Or perhaps for the idea that the Rapture and the Second Coming are the same event? I am not trying to be argumentative, I am simply curious?

That idea is also popular but, again, it can't be true.

First, there is no reason to call the Rapture the second coming because there is no mention of Jesus coming to the ground. Instead, we will be caught up (i.e., "raptured") to join with him and we all go back to his Father's house for a "bride of Christ wedding" time, presumed to last for 7 years. If not, then the "wedding supper of the lamb" will have to be a sack lunch picnic in the air before we return to earth; I have to laff at that idea!

Second, in order for all of the clearly written end-times prophecies to be fulfilled, the triumphant return of the King to earth must occur when all of the disasters we read about in Revelation are done, not half way through. When Jesus comes as the triumphant King riding on a white horse he will be accompanied by angels PLUS a great cloud of his witnesses (i. e., all of the resurrected and raptured believers at that time, but NOT "Jehovah Witnesses" as such). Returning believers will also be riding horses with Lord Jesus back down to the earth to begin the 1,000 year kingdom.

So, the Rapture of the Church (Bride of Christ) can occur at any moment but, humanly speaking, the "End of the World as we know it" is still very far into the future. Both the world wide burn and the Great White Throne judgements of the damned will have to follow at least the seven years of Tribulation AND the subsequent millennial Kingdom, probably a bit more.

Alabama358
12-28-2020, 02:28 PM
A mid-trib rapture theory is held by many but I see no way it can be true because the rapture is going to be a sudden surprise without warning, right? Wrong Thus, anyone with a functional brain will understand the seven year tribulation is happening and, from that, it would be easy to know when a mid-trib rapture must be. We're told no one can know when the rapture will happen Who are you being told by? I guess I should have posted the very next 2 verses as well ...(Matthew 24 32-33) 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. So Christ is saying just the opposite of what "you have been told" He is telling his disciples that when you see all these things know that it is near, even at the door... at the door (i.e., if you are are children of the light you will see it coming but if you are of the night... it will be a total surprise) 1Thessalonians 5: 4-5... 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. so it follows that a known mid-trib (or a post trib) rapture can't be true! Book, Chapter and Verse please? Sorry but not really interested in your feelings



That idea is also popular but, again, it can't be true.

First, there is no reason to call the Rapture the second coming because there is no mention of Jesus coming to the ground. Instead, we will be caught up (i.e., "raptured") to join with him and we all go back to his Father's house for a "bride of Christ wedding" time, presumed to last for 7 years. Presumed by whom? If not, then the "wedding supper of the lamb" will have to be a sack lunch picnic (cute but not biblical) in the air before we return to earth; I have to laff at that idea! Laff, as in Scoff?

Second, in order for all of the clearly written end-times prophecies Book, Chapter and Verses please? to be fulfilled, the triumphant return of the King to earth must occur when all of the disasters we read about in Revelation are done, not half way through. When Jesus comes as the triumphant King riding on a white horse he will be accompanied by angels PLUS a great cloud of his witnesses (i. e., all of the resurrected and raptured believers at that time, but NOT "Jehovah Witnesses" as such). Returning believers will also be riding horses with Lord Jesus back down to the earth to begin the 1,000 year kingdom.

So, the Rapture of the Church (Bride of Christ) can occur at any moment (according to you... but Christ says otherwise please re-read Matthew 24 for clarity, he gives a long list of things that will happen first so the "it can happen at any moment thing" seems counterintuitive to his teaching and parable of the fig tree...his words not mine) but, humanly speaking, the "End of the World as we know it" is still very far into the future. Both the world wide burn and the Great White Throne judgements of the damned will have to follow at least the seven years of Tribulation AND the subsequent millennial Kingdom, probably a bit more.

Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib or Post-Trip really makes no difference to me, My destination has all ready been decided and guaranteed. Truth be told if I could pick one I would probably pick the Pre-Trib... It appears to be the easiest path (to get pulled out before all the trouble starts) but from what I can see, that is not what Christ taught.
So I will go with the bible and not "my feelings" or doctrines of man.

Thundarstick
12-28-2020, 10:32 PM
It appears that instead of the world falling apart, it may just be falling into place!
Mull that over.

1hole
12-29-2020, 01:15 PM
Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib or Post-Trip really makes no difference to me, My destination has all ready been decided and guaranteed.

The greatest reason Christians should at least be interested in end times prophecy is that it IS prophecy, i.e., the word of God, and a LOT of his Bible is involved with that. There's nothing in prophecy about where anyone's final judgement and therefore destination might be, that's cleary covered in just a few lines by John 3:16-18.

Paul told Timothy to "study the Bible to show yourself approved", meaning our study isn't supposed to stop after we know enough to be saved (II Tim 2:15).


Truth be told if I could pick one I would probably pick the Pre-Trib... It appears to be the easiest path (to get pulled out before all the trouble starts)

Pre-trib is right but not because it's comfortable. It's because the Church (the Bride of Christ) will suddenly be lifted away before the nightmares of the Tribulation begin.


but from what I can see, that is not what Christ taught.

Look again. Go back to what Paul told Timothy; "rightly divide the truth", including the Age of the Law vs. the Age of Grace.

First, understand that not all of what Jesus said was to today's Church. A lot of the Lord's words were specifically directed to his Hebrew brothers and sisters under the Law and their efforts to earn God's approval rather than gaining it by Christian faith (trust) in Him as Lord but the Age of Grace didn't start until His crucifiction.

Many well meaning Christians refuse to study what they don't understand. They often confuse themselves by ignoring the truth that Jesus lived, spoke and died under the Law of Moses, not the Age of Grace. Thus, much of what He said related to Jews who have missed what they were determined to ignore because they didn't understand it, meaning they failed to "rightly divide" or study Old Testament scripture.

Today, we self appointed "super smart gentiles" often deal with scripture we don't understand fail and then think our childish and simplistic Biblical "milk" must be real "meat!" Many people consider themselves "wise" because of their (targeted) scriptural ignorance; but God said, through Paul (us), not to do that (Heb 5:12). Ignoring large chunks of scripture because it isn't simple to grasp wasn't wise for O.T. Jews and it isn't wise for us today.


So I will go with the bible and not "my feelings" or doctrines of man.

A wise position. But .... never forget you are also a man so be sure of your own doctrines.

I try to follow Paul's instructions to actually study scripture and I refuse to let other people's feelings influence what I study. I don't have it all straight but what I have is mine. Meaning I have a scriptural basis for everything I "believe" because I know God doesn't much care what I might believe. Instead, He directs me to study and come to know the truth of what's been written, not rest in my comfortable guesses.

Bottom line: Knowing enough scripture to be saved is the starting line for study, it's not the correct end of study. It's childishly easy for immature Christians to read and see what scripture says but few can grasp what much of it means; that's where mature Bible study comes in ... if it ever does. Ignorance of prophecy is nothing to brag about.

Alabama358
12-29-2020, 02:54 PM
The greatest reason Christians should at least be interested in end times prophecy is that it IS prophecy, i.e., the word of God, and a LOT of his Bible is involved with that. There's nothing in prophecy about where anyone's final judgement and therefore destination might be, that's cleary covered in just a few lines by John 3:16-18.

Paul told Timothy to "study the Bible to show yourself approved", meaning our study isn't supposed to stop after we know enough to be saved (II Tim 2:15).



Pre-trib is right but not because it's comfortable. It's because the Church (the Bride of Christ) will suddenly be lifted away before the nightmares of the Tribulation begin.



Look again. Go back to what Paul told Timothy; "rightly divide the truth", including the Age of the Law vs. the Age of Grace.

First, understand that not all of what Jesus said was to today's Church. A lot of the Lord's words were specifically directed to his Hebrew brothers and sisters under the Law and their efforts to earn God's approval rather than gaining it by Christian faith (trust) in Him as Lord but the Age of Grace didn't start until His crucifiction.

Many well meaning Christians refuse to study what they don't understand. They often confuse themselves by ignoring the truth that Jesus lived, spoke and died under the Law of Moses, not the Age of Grace. Thus, much of what He said related to Jews who have missed what they were determined to ignore because they didn't understand it, meaning they failed to "rightly divide" or study Old Testament scripture.

Today, we self appointed "super smart gentiles" often deal with scripture we don't understand fail and then think our childish and simplistic Biblical "milk" must be real "meat!" Many people consider themselves "wise" because of their (targeted) scriptural ignorance; but God said, through Paul (us), not to do that (Heb 5:12). Ignoring large chunks of scripture because it isn't simple to grasp wasn't wise for O.T. Jews and it isn't wise for us today.



A wise position. But .... never forget you are also a man so be sure of your own doctrines.

I try to follow Paul's instructions to actually study scripture and I refuse to let other people's feelings influence what I study. I don't have it all straight but what I have is mine. Meaning I have a scriptural basis for everything I "believe" because I know God doesn't much care what I might believe. Instead, He directs me to study and come to know the truth of what's been written, not rest in my comfortable guesses.

Bottom line: Knowing enough scripture to be saved is the starting line for study, it's not the correct end of study. It's childishly easy for immature Christians to read and see what scripture says but few can grasp what much of it means; that's where mature Bible study comes in ... if it ever does. Ignorance of prophecy is nothing to brag about.

Let us put all that aside for just a moment so that we don't get to far down in to the weeds...
You have not directly commented on the substance of my OP Matthew 24: 1-33.

Can you break down (with a mature bible study mindset) the substance of Matthew 24: 1-33

Questions to answer:
1 - Where did this take place.
2 - When did this take place
3 - Who was speaking and who was the audience?
4 - What was the questions asked to Christ?
5 - What was the answers to said questions
6 - What is the meaning of the Fig Tree Parable?
7 - Would you consider Matthew 24 Prophecy
8 - In 20 words or less describe what Matthew 24 means to you

These 8 questions are not just for 1hole but for anyone that wants to add to the discussion. Please try to stay on point (Matthew 24) without getting in to the weeds. I probably should have started the thread in this fashion :grin:

dannyd
12-29-2020, 04:24 PM
Let us put all that aside for just a moment so that we don't get to far down in to the weeds...
You have not directly commented on the substance of my OP Matthew 24: 1-33.

Can you break down (with a mature bible study mindset) the substance of Matthew 24: 1-33

Questions to answer:
1 - Where did this take place.
2 - When did this take place
3 - Who was speaking and who was the audience?
4 - What was the questions asked to Christ?
5 - What was the answers to said questions
6 - What is the meaning of the Fig Tree Parable?
7 - Would you consider Matthew 24 Prophecy
8 - In 20 words or less describe what Matthew 24 means to you

These 8 questions are not just for 1hole but for anyone that wants to add to the discussion. Please try to stay on point (Matthew 24) without getting in to the weeds. I probably should have started the thread in this fashion :grin:


He is speaking to the Jews about his second coming.

1hole
12-30-2020, 03:17 PM
Let us put all that aside for just a moment so that we don't get to far down in to the weeds...
You have not directly commented on the substance of my OP Matthew 24: 1-33.

Can you break down (with a mature bible study mindset) the substance of Matthew 24: 1-33

Questions to answer:
1 - Where did this take place.
2 - When did this take place
3 - Who was speaking and who was the audience?
4 - What was the questions asked to Christ?
5 - What was the answers to said questions
6 - What is the meaning of the Fig Tree Parable?
7 - Would you consider Matthew 24 Prophecy
8 - In 20 words or less describe what Matthew 24 means to you

These 8 questions are not just for 1hole but for anyone that wants to add to the discussion. Please try to stay on point (Matthew 24) without getting in to the weeds. I probably should have started the thread in this fashion :grin:

Alabama, you ask some honest and reasonable questions. But, I'm not a religious authority or author and while your questions are succinct the more than 20 word answer must properly open a very wide ranging study and that's beyond my ability. And no one, including you, would read it if I could; after all, one man's obvious weed field is another man's delicious sweet potato field hidden just below the surface! Giving an "I think ... " answer without support is nothing but personal opinion; opinions are plentiful and cheep and worth every penny they cost but they're often of little help to anyone.

Therefore, I'm going to pick a broad view of your questions and briefly tell you what I think, and some of why but, at the end, you must find your own way to the final answers. Understand that I'm just challenging the forum to examine the scripture for more than the seemingly "obvious" surface and search it through. I believe that when we examine and understand what's written, and in the context for when and about what it was written, there will be no more jarring "contradictions" in scripture.

Matt 24:1-33

First, yes, that's all prophecy. It appears (to me anyway) that Jesus' verses 1-2 were spoken at a separate time from 3-33; that kind of prophecy shift in perspective is common in scripture, much of prophecy has a "near" and "far" perspective. For instance, the once "near" sacrifice of Issac was completed in full by the "far" sacrifice of Jesus, and both was on the same hill.

I believe Matt 24:1-2 refers to the near destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans, period.

Then, (24:3-33) Jesus swings to the far future, after the rapture of the N.T. Church but before the start of the Tribulation. Why believe that? Well, the "abomination that causes desolation", i.e., worship of the Antichrist only happens in the newly rebuilt Jewish temple at the middle of the Tribulation.

Then, the example of the ripening fig tree has to represent the coming fullness and completion of time (and life) as we now know it. Contrary to at least one denomination's school of thought, that completion did not even nearly occur in 70 AD, nor did much of Daniel and Revelation. So, if the Bible is true, and I think it is, it has to still lie before us and the words of Jesus in Mat 12:3-33 has to apply to his Jewish brothers during the Tribulation.

Another reason we often "see" confusing inconsistencies in scripture is the difference between God's covenant with Abraham (the Hebrews) was NOT and is not exactly the same as his covenant with the Church no matter how hard we try to make it so. One effect of that is we born again, Holy Spirit indwelt believers (the Church) of all nations will be snatched up before the Tribulation but non-Christian Jews will not; Jesus was addressing the end-time Jews, not the Church, in the last passages of Mat 24.
We read a lot of confusing comments about what will happen to both Jews and gentiles during the Tribulation but we, the saint's by the blood of Christ (the Church), will be exempt from those trying times.

Trying to untwine a lot of mixed but interrelated scripture like this will get much easier if we just recognise that God's promises and future plans for the Church and the Jewish nation (the Hebrew tribe of Abraham, the unfaithful wife of the Father actually) is not exactly the same as that for the Church, i.e., the Bride of Christ.

Now, after all that, read/think/pray about it and make your own judgements about what's meant in Matt 12.

I gotta go, I've used up at least twice as much as my allotted 20 words! ;)

Alabama358
01-04-2021, 01:51 PM
Another reason we often "see" confusing inconsistencies in scripture is the difference between God's covenant with Abraham (the Hebrews) was NOT and is not exactly the same as his covenant with the Church no matter how hard we try to make it so. One effect of that is we born again, Holy Spirit indwelt believers (the Church) of all nations will be snatched up before the Tribulation but non-Christian Jews will not; Jesus was addressing the end-time Jews, not the Church, in the last passages of Mat 24.
We read a lot of confusing comments about what will happen to both Jews and gentiles during the Tribulation but we, the saint's by the blood of Christ (the Church), will be exempt from those trying times.

Trying to untwine a lot of mixed but interrelated scripture like this will get much easier if we just recognise that God's promises and future plans for the Church and the Jewish nation (the Hebrew tribe of Abraham, the unfaithful wife of the Father actually) is not exactly the same as that for the Church, i.e., the Bride of Christ.


With all do respect my brother... I see NO confusing inconsistencies in scripture and really no confusing comments.

I think when folks try to bend scripture to fit a certain doctrine that they have been taught... that is when they see confusing inconsistencies.

First off, there is not 2 separate programs, 1 for the Jews/Hebrews and 1 for the Gentiles/Greek

Romans 2:10-11 KJV
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Romans 2:28-29 KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Romans 10:12 KJV
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Galatians 3:28-29 KJV
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The above scripture (and there are many more) Clearly articulates that there is not 2 programs (one for the Jews/Hebrews and one for the Gentiles/Greeks/The Church)
I am not sure how anyone could read the above bible passages and determine that there is going to be two raptures... one for the Church/Greek/Gentiles and one for the Jews/Hebrews unless you are trying to make it fit a particular doctrine...then one could say it is confusing.

Where did this doctrine start?

John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism. Pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren,[1] and further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.[2]
He produced translations of the Bible in German "Elberfelder Bibel", French "Pau" Bible, Dutch New Testament, and English (finished posthumously) based on the Hebrew and Greek texts called The Holy Scriptures: A New Translation from the Original Languages by J. N. Darby. It has furthermore been translated into other languages in whole or part.
Darby has been credited with originating the pre-tribulational rapture theory wherein Christ will suddenly remove His bride, the Church, from this world to its heavenly destiny before the judgments of the tribulation. Thus the prophetic program resumes with Israel's earthly destiny. Dispensationalist beliefs about the fate of the Jews and the re-establishment of the Kingdom of Israel put dispensationalists at the forefront of Christian Zionism, because "God is able to graft them in again,

So for Centuries/Millennia... (1800 years or so) everyone had it wrong until John Nelson Darby and the Scofield Reference Bible straightened us out???

At this point someone will always say you just don't understand because you are not rightly dividing the word...
2 Timothy 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

And in reality they are not rightly dividing anything but are just regurgitating Darby's doctrine.
No, thanks... I will stick to just reading my KJV bible as it is written and "God willing" with critical thinking and the help of the Holy Spirit find understanding.

The Parable of the Fig Tree is quite simple
Christ is saying that if you watch for everything I just laid out for you, you will know my coming is near, even at the door. (not the hour or day but at the door)
He is most definitely not saying... it can happen at any second with no signs so don't even consider it...
Or everything I just said is for "you only" Jews/Hebrews because I have a different program for the Greek/Gentile/Church where I am going to pull them out at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week, so all of this means nothing to them.

So back to the original post intent... for anyone interested in End Times prophecy Matthew 24 (and many others) is a good read

dannyd
01-04-2021, 02:37 PM
With all do respect my brother... I see NO confusing inconsistencies in scripture and really no confusing comments.

I think when folks try to bend scripture to fit a certain doctrine that they have been taught... that is when they see confusing inconsistencies.

First off, there is not 2 separate programs, 1 for the Jews/Hebrews and 1 for the Gentiles/Greek

Romans 2:10-11 KJV
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Romans 2:28-29 KJV
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Romans 10:12 KJV
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Galatians 3:28-29 KJV
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The above scripture (and there are many more) Clearly articulates that there is not 2 programs (one for the Jews/Hebrews and one for the Gentiles/Greeks/The Church)
I am not sure how anyone could read the above bible passages and determine that there is going to be two raptures... one for the Church/Greek/Gentiles and one for the Jews/Hebrews unless you are trying to make it fit a particular doctrine...then one could say it is confusing.

Where did this doctrine start?

John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism. Pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren,[1] and further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.[2]
He produced translations of the Bible in German "Elberfelder Bibel", French "Pau" Bible, Dutch New Testament, and English (finished posthumously) based on the Hebrew and Greek texts called The Holy Scriptures: A New Translation from the Original Languages by J. N. Darby. It has furthermore been translated into other languages in whole or part.
Darby has been credited with originating the pre-tribulational rapture theory wherein Christ will suddenly remove His bride, the Church, from this world to its heavenly destiny before the judgments of the tribulation. Thus the prophetic program resumes with Israel's earthly destiny. Dispensationalist beliefs about the fate of the Jews and the re-establishment of the Kingdom of Israel put dispensationalists at the forefront of Christian Zionism, because "God is able to graft them in again,

So for Centuries/Millennia... (1800 years or so) everyone had it wrong until John Nelson Darby and the Scofield Reference Bible straightened us out???

At this point someone will always say you just don't understand because you are not rightly dividing the word...
2 Timothy 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

And in reality they are not rightly dividing anything but are just regurgitating Darby's doctrine.
No, thanks... I will stick to just reading my KJV bible as it is written and "God willing" with critical thinking and the help of the Holy Spirit find understanding.

The Parable of the Fig Tree is quite simple
Christ is saying that if you watch for everything I just laid out for you, you will know my coming is near, even at the door. (not the hour or day but at the door)
He is most definitely not saying... it can happen at any second with no signs so don't even consider it...
Or everything I just said is for "you only" Jews/Hebrews because I have a different program for the Greek/Gentile/Church where I am going to pull them out at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week, so all of this means nothing to them.

So back to the original post intent... for anyone interested in End Times prophecy Matthew 24 (and many others) is a good read


So, this not about us but end times prophecy because he is talking to the Jews and not the people saved by Grace because that has not happened yet. I divide my because it keeps me on the right track.

Alabama358
01-04-2021, 02:51 PM
So, this not about us but end times prophecy because he is talking to the Jews and not the people saved by Grace because that has not happened yet. I divide my because it keeps me on the right track.

Galatians 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There is no "Us" and "Them"
Do you suppose that his disciples "The Jews" that he was talking to were saved by Grace?

dannyd
01-04-2021, 04:20 PM
Galatians 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There is no "Us" and "Them"
Do you suppose that his disciples "The Jews" that he was talking to were saved by Grace?

That statement is true in the place and time: but your asking about a Matthew 24 not a Pauline Epistle. Jews are saved by grace in this age (Age of Grace), but after the Rapture everyone goes back to works for the Great Tribulation and Millennium Kingdom. Yes: there is a US and Them. The Jews are Gods People we got in because They rejected Christ; just my Good Luck. To answer the last question: No they were not saved by Grace because it had not been revealed yet.

Alabama358
01-04-2021, 06:24 PM
That statement is true in the place and time: but your asking about a Matthew 24 not a Pauline Epistle. Jews are saved by grace in this age (Age of Grace), but after the Rapture everyone goes back to works for the Great Tribulation and Millennium Kingdom. Yes: there is a US and Them. The Jews are Gods People we got in because They rejected Christ; just my Good Luck. To answer the last question: No they were not saved by Grace because it had not been revealed yet.

Danny,
I am not sure where you are coming from... you seem to be stuck on this "Age" of Grace thing.

So I think what you are saying is that either the Jews/Hebrews before Christ were saved by Works or you are saying that none of them were saved?
Both of which would be wrong.

The Idea that after the rapture... all the way through the end of Christ's Millennial reign, Salvation will be based and dependent on works only is...well, never heard of that?

The Idea that we non Hebrews "lucked out" and the only reason salvation is available to us is because the Jews rejected Christ is a false doctrine and can be easily rebuked with just a little bible reading

We are all saved by Grace Through Faith the same way Abraham, David and the folks of the Old Testament were. (Read Romans 4)

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

dannyd
01-04-2021, 07:22 PM
Danny,
I am not sure where you are coming from... you seem to be stuck on this "Age" of Grace thing.

So I think what you are saying is that either the Jews/Hebrews before Christ were saved by Works or you are saying that none of them were saved?
Both of which would be wrong.

The Idea that after the rapture... all the way through the end of Christ's Millennial reign, Salvation will be based and dependent on works only is...well, never heard of that?

The Idea that we non Hebrews "lucked out" and the only reason salvation is available to us is because the Jews rejected Christ is a false doctrine and can be easily rebuked with just a little bible reading

We are all saved by Grace Through Faith the same way Abraham, David and the folks of the Old Testament were. (Read Romans 4)

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Okay, we just see it a different way and one day we will find out. But for now I will have to go with Dr. Scofield, Rev. Clarence Larkin and Dr. Ruckman.

1hole
01-05-2021, 04:32 PM
So I think what you are saying is that either the Jews/Hebrews before Christ were saved by Works or you are saying that none of them were saved?
Both of which would be wrong.

He said neither but by what measurement do YOU think the O.T. Hebrews thought they would be "saved"? It sure wasn't faith in a coming N.T. messiah they knew little or nothing about.


The Idea that after the rapture... all the way through the end of Christ's Millennial reign, Salvation will be based and dependent on works only is...well, never heard of that?

Maybe you have. Salvation by grace alone through faith alone only applies to the present age, the Church age which started when the Holy Spirit came to indwell all believers. That will end at the Rapture and revert to the Law until the Millennial age ends.

If you disagree, check Mat 24:13 again and note that during the Tribulation salvation is conditional on individual worth. And there is no mention of a stand alone Eph 2:8-9 type salvation in the Book of Revelation.

(And how in the world did you come up with a "two raptures" idea?)


The Idea that we non Hebrews "lucked out" and the only reason salvation is available to us is because the Jews rejected Christ is a false doctrine and can be easily rebuked with just a little bible reading.

Just a little O.T. Bible reading will confirm that "luck" had nothing to do with God's plans for either the Hebrews or gentiles.

While eternal life with God (heaven) applies equally for Jews and gentiles, Paul's writings quite clearly demonstrate that God has specific responsibilities and blessings for Jews that gentiles don't share; you'll find all that well covered by the minor prophets.

We gentiles are adopted into the spiritual family of Abraham but we DO NOT replace blood-line Jews as the apple of God's eye, not in the mortal human past or spiritual eternal future.

My wife and I have gone through the entire Bible several times. The only way I can see how anyone else can do that, even once, and not know Jews and gentiles (outside this Church Age) are different has read it with a fixed belief that God doesn't have a special place in his heart for Jews; that simply isn't true.


We are all saved by Grace Through Faith the same way Abraham, David and the folks of the Old Testament were. (Read Romans 4, Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Learn to "rightly divide the word" and you'll recognise that those passages refer to this age, not before or after this one.

Alabama358
01-06-2021, 06:34 PM
Learn to "rightly divide the word" and you'll recognise that those passages refer to this age, not before or after this one.

Back to the "Rightly divide the word" fail safe to defend you position... ok

Lets see if we can move out of the weeds (or sweet potato field) and "rightly divide the word" and get some clarity.

If you had to hang your hat on just bible verses without commentary or rhetoric, what is your top 3 or more (verse or verses) to defend the (190 year old John Nelson Darby) position that there is going to be a separate secret rapture of the Church before the first seal is cracked in Revelation? Surely such a monumental event will have at least 3 VERY clear and concise irrefutable verses

Just stand alone Bible-Verses/Scripture and no Dispensationalism "age of this" and "age of that" rhetoric

1.
2.
3.

popper
01-07-2021, 02:27 PM
All this discussion is BS. The world is going to Hell in a 'hand basket' and the only real task God has given me is to plant the seed into as many as possible for their salvation. Churches have been steering away from this task for a LONG time, focused on other 'issues'. Really going to get hit with 'diversity' now from the pulpit and Gov. Jesus will come back when the 'Light' of the world is pretty much extinguished. Just getting closer these days. Lots of pain and suffering to come to us in the near future. Not much different from the Israelites in Egypt or middle east or Europe. Advice to survive? Don't buy anything but necessities, pay as little taxes as you can -Gov. will steal it anyway.
Why the Israelites were in Egypt anyway - God said 'you did wrong' and will be there for 400 yrs. They could (?) have left before they became slaves. Why not?

Rizzo
01-07-2021, 03:06 PM
Jesus lays out "His" end times playbook very specifically and precisely. Sometimes folks have a hard time seeing it clearly but its all right there.


Matthew chapter 24
King James Version

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

<snipped>

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Time to go home "gather together his elect (that's us) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other"



Well, to me, this whole Rapture/Tribulation issue is a bit confusing and over dramatic.
I went and read Mathew 24 and I see that you stopped at verse 31.
Reading beyond 31 I see:

33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.
34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

So, it sounds to me that the time frame that all this was to start was in that generation.
Since that generation is long gone, the whole point is moot.
No?

Another thing, if you are saved, then you are saved.
You have the free gift of salvation.
You have your spot reserved for you in heaven.

Then why all of the drama about all of that Rapture/Tribulation business?

Alabama358
01-07-2021, 05:22 PM
Well, to me, this whole Rapture/Tribulation issue is a bit confusing and over dramatic.
I went and read Mathew 24 and I see that you stopped at verse 31.
Reading beyond 31 I see:

33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.
34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

So, it sounds to me that the time frame that all this was to start was in that generation.
Since that generation is long gone, the whole point is moot.
No?

Another thing, if you are saved, then you are saved.
You have the free gift of salvation.
You have your spot reserved for you in heaven.

Then why all of the drama about all of that Rapture/Tribulation business?

Rizzo,

Thanks for your comments, I couldn't agree more... when your saved, you know your final destination and it is a reservation that can not be revoked.

With regards to Verse 33 and 34:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

I think what Christ was saying was that "this generation" as in the generation that sees all the things that he just described (sky being parted with lightening from the east to the west, Sun & Moon being darkened, stars falling from the sky, the powers of the heavens being shaken and finally Christ appearing in the clouds) will not pass away.
So not the actual generation that he was sitting with and prophesying to... but the generation that witnesses the aforementioned events

I agree that there is a lot of confusion and drama wrapped up in the whole pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib doctrines being pushed out there in the world. That is why I though it might be a good spot to discuss it here in the Deep Theological Discussion room

1hole
01-11-2021, 06:18 PM
.... there is a lot of confusion and drama wrapped up in the whole pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib doctrines being pushed out there in the world. That is why I though it might be a good spot to discuss it here in the Deep Theological Discussion room

Well yes, Alabama, like virtually every other meaningful view of the end times events there is a good bit of scholarly disagreement on the Pre, Mid and Post Tribulation rapture but I've not noticed much "drama and confusion."

You sound as if you know the answers; that's good. Perhaps you would (weedlessly!) straighten out our confusion and tell us the correct view of the rapture timing? And, maybe, you might (scripturally) prove your position? And, hopefully, you will explain it all without drama or pushing your own position out?

dannyd
01-11-2021, 08:07 PM
I don't care when the Horn blows I Am gone. If you not going you may want to move to Europe or the Middle East because I think we are in the Area of that 1/3 thing. ;)

ioon44
01-12-2021, 11:45 AM
I you don't know the Who (Jesus) then the What and When isn't going to matter, You missed it.

Alabama358
01-12-2021, 01:56 PM
Well yes, Alabama, like virtually every other meaningful view of the end times events there is a good bit of scholarly disagreement on the Pre, Mid and Post Tribulation rapture but I've not noticed much "drama and confusion."

You sound as if you know the answers; that's good. Perhaps you would (weedlessly!) straighten out our confusion and tell us the correct view of the rapture timing? And, maybe, you might (scripturally) prove your position? And, hopefully, you will explain it all without drama or pushing your own position out?


I simply ask you for 3 solid bible verses (without rhetoric about different ages and such) to help me understand your position, but I can tell by the snarkiness and lack of bible verses of your last post, you are just looking for a back and forth battle...which was not my intention or desire when I started this thread.
If you go back and re-read my post you will see most of them backed up with scripture.
Good day Sir

Alabama358
01-12-2021, 01:58 PM
I you don't know the Who (Jesus) then the What and When isn't going to matter, You missed it.

Amen :!:

1hole
01-12-2021, 10:04 PM
Alabama, you surprise me. I've done my best to treat you with utmost respect and I now get snark in return; that's not right! (BUT I take no offense, you're forgiven.)

I gave a broad answer to your poorly defined Bible test question because I really don't know which approach you think is grassey. I mean, I don't know which way to answer you without fear of pushing a dramatic and/or confusing point of view! To the best of my admittedly limited Bible knowledge, the Rapture timing (pre-, mid-, post Tribulation) question really isn't all that complicated but I don't want to disappoint you and go chasing after the wrong rabbits.

Fact is, YOU raised the issue of the Rapture timing and, by your wording, implied you know the answer, but you've left us poor Bible beginners hanging in a near vacuum with nothing firm to grasp onto! Are you now ducking your chosen issue and refuse to tell us which of the three positions on the Rapture timing is correct? Why won't you be the one to start the discussion off and thereby bring clear focus to what you profess to seek? I believe it will help keep all of us all out of the worrisome crabgrass if you do that! :)

dannyd
01-12-2021, 10:55 PM
Only thing I do know the Rapture is the event on the horizon for me: whether by death or the horn blowing. Oh my yes absence from the body present with the LORD. Going Home :)

Huskerguy
01-13-2021, 10:40 AM
I just stumbled onto this thread. Didn't know it even existed.

I am not a Biblical apologist but have ample study materials and a couple of pastors who read Biblical text in their original languages that I can ask anything of.

The time of the rapture (word not used in the Bible) is always one for debate. When I was first saved, this was an important doctrine to me, it no longer is although many people seem to be more concerned about it these days. I can support my stand that I believe the Lord will remove true Believers from the earth with the rapture before the tribulation but I do have a few thoughts on why.

First, God has promised he will judge unbelieving man when the time is right. Only He knows the day and time but it apparently will come swiftly and without notice.

Secondly, I think it is important to recognize who and what are the object of the Tribulation. It is unbelieving man. Many times in Revelation God God tells us his wrath is on unbelieving man, not believing man. So I believer the tribulation is prepared for the unbelieving.

Thirdly, when Jesus comes to take his bride, the church with him, He will not come to earth. As noted, we will be caught up with him in the clouds. This will further throw the world into chaos when many millions are taken from the face of the earth with no explanation and further contribute to the tribulation nightmare.

Fourth, Jesus is coming back for his bride the church. That imagery is used over and over in the scriptures. Jesus is not going to abuse His Bride by having them go through torment and persecution during the Tribulation. At least that is what I believe. He loves the church as His bride and they will be spared.

Generations have been looking for Jesus's return since He spoke to the disciples about it. The apostles thought it was going to occur with them and each time in history we see an event take place, we begin to think this could be it.

Also consider this. Satan, the adversary does not know when any of this will occur but he has to be ready. The Anti-Christ is necessary in the end time events to set himself up to be worshiped in the temple. So, if Satan doesn't know when it will happen, how does he prepare the anti-Christ for that unknown time. Simply, Satan has multiple anti-Christs ready at any given time. The Bible clearly tells us there have been and will be many anti-Christs come along but eventually there will be one last one. Satan works diligently to keep the pipeline full of candidates when the time comes and he can spring this person of destruction and terror on the earth one last time.

I can add scripture to this as well, but these are a short capsule of my thoughts on the subject. There are more churches not believing in the millennial kingdom as well. I believe when Jesus returns with the new heavens and earth, Satan will be bound for a literal 1,000 years.

dannyd
01-13-2021, 12:07 PM
Not teaching it anymore should get your hopes up because that makes this time the Laodicea Church. I am one of those people that believe the King James Bible is the True Word of God. That's comes from more from being a sailor more than a pew warmer. Got to see many of his wonders.

Alabama358
01-13-2021, 03:26 PM
Hey Husker, Thanks for your comments



The time of the rapture (word not used in the Bible) is always one for debate.


I can add scripture to this as well, but these are a short capsule of my thoughts on the subject. There are more churches not believing in the millennial kingdom as well. I believe when Jesus returns with the new heavens and earth, Satan will be bound for a literal 1,000 years.

I 100% agree, the word rapture is a man made reference.
Would you agree that the bibles terminology would be "The Day of the Lord" or "The coming of the Son of Man in the clouds" or???

Also... which specific bible verses do you think the bible refers to when we are called to be with our Lord?

And do you personally believe that there is two different programs, One for the Hebrews/Jews and a separate one for the non-Hebrews/Greek-Gentile

The idea that there will not be a 1000 year reign of Christ... I just don't see how any pastor that has a bible could teach that.

Thanks Roll-Tide :grin:

1hole
01-13-2021, 07:08 PM
Hey Husker, Thanks for your comments

Yes, very well said Husker.


I 100% agree, the word rapture is a man made reference.

Truly, rapture isn't a "man-made reference" but it wasn't, as such, in the original Greek. Our Bible was of necessity translated from Aramaic and Greek to Latin to English for us.

The point here is, scripture starts with believers suddenly being snatched up as if by a swift bird of prey, i.e., a raptor such as an eagle or hawk. Thus, in English, we read that believers at that time will suddenly be raptured meaning they, both the dead and alive, will instantly be changed to immortality and caught up in the sky when it's the right time to meet the Lord.

So, that "caught up/snatched up" IS the Rapture so it isn't a man-made doctrine without standing in scripture. After all, it's the original message, not the English words, that matter. That message was in the original Greek and finally English for us. (1 Cor 15:52-53; 2 Thess 4:13-18)

Old School Big Bore
01-19-2021, 01:08 AM
My former pastor, Rev Billy Storms ThD, used to joke that he was a "pan-millenialist", meaning that "it's all gonna pan out in the end". He did that to reinforce to us that the timeline is obscured to us, and that we are supposed to be concentrating on our personal relationship with you-know-who above any internecine squabblings.
As far as which version is "best", it seems logical that the version which was translated direct from Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic into modern English just may be a bit more true to the originals than one that had to go through Latin, Old German, High German, Olde and finally Middle English.
Just sayin'...Ed <><

ioon44
01-19-2021, 07:58 AM
Who is you-know-who?

1hole
01-19-2021, 12:50 PM
My former pastor, Rev Billy Storms ThD, used to joke that he was a "pan-millenialist", meaning that "it's all gonna pan out in the end".

Ed, I'm old and I've heard that joke from pulpits for years, always from speakers who are uninterested in the study of prophecy. However, I've read that something like 25% of scripture is, or was, prophecy when it was written - and ignorance of prophecy is exactly why so many Jews rejected Jesus - so maybe that really isn't the best approach.

Granted, prophecy shouldn't be the first topic of Bible study for new Christians but, IMHO, if we live long enough and study the Bible enough surely we should reach the point that our fellowship with God will continue to be improved if we read and study ALL of his written word, not repeatedly pound over the simplistic basics.


He did that to reinforce to us that the timeline is obscured to us, and that we are supposed to be concentrating on our personal relationship with you-know-who above any internecine squabblings.

"Internecine squabblings" puts it mildly. I've never understood why/how some folk get so angry when others don't agree, be it religion or politics, or Ford vs. Chevy. (That's not very mature is it?) But can we seriously say we're trying to get closer to God while choosing to ignore 25%, or even 2.5%, of what he says?

The time-line of days and hours is not and should be the focus of prophecy study and, thankfully, I've never known it to be true of any serious Bible student. But, IMHO, it's a vast over extension to suggest we not even try to understand the historical flow of the Bible story, including the coming end times; after all, the book of Revelation is God's holy word too and I just can't bring myself to ignore it. And it's the only book that specifically promises special blessings to those who keep its sayings in our hearts!


As far as which version is "best", it seems logical that the version which was translated direct from Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic into modern English just may be a bit more true to the originals than one that had to go through Latin, Old German, High German, Olde and finally Middle English.

Well, it does seem that way. But, we have quite a few versions at hand so, at the end of the day, each of us must decide which of the currently available translations best meet that criteria.

Question: Which version(s) do you consider best? And, maybe, which current version(s) seem to be the least valuable to serious Christians ... and why??

.429&H110
01-21-2021, 04:43 PM
Matthew 24 in 20 words or less?
Here's 23 words, like Cliff notes...
Not for me to paraphrase my Savior.

"13 ...and then the end shall come...
15 ...Daniel...
36 ...Knoweth no man...but my Father only.
42 ...ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

Revelation 22 makes my hair stand up.

"18 For I testify unto every man that
heareth the words of the prophesy of
this book, If any man shall add unto
these things, God shall add unto him the
plagues that are written in this book.
19 And if any man shall take away
from the words of this book of this
prophesy, God shall take away his part
out of the book of life, and out of the
holy city, and from the things which
are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things
saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ
be with you all. Amen.

So ends the Bible with an excellent prayer.

dannyd
01-21-2021, 05:53 PM
The Church is gone way before that: divide that KJB. But if Your staying for Tribulation thank about moving far east: Europe or Southwest Asia Just saying.

1hole
01-22-2021, 05:54 PM
The Church is gone way before that: divide that KJB.

Help! What does "divide that K[i](ing) J(ames) B(ible)" mean?

dannyd
01-22-2021, 06:24 PM
Help! What does "divide that K[i](ing) J(ames) B(ible)" mean?


These people can help you more than me. You can order their books on Amazon. Rev. Clarence Larkin, Dr. Scofield or Dr. Ruckman ( you can see him on Youtube). Divide that KJB Bible up to match who it's talking to: The Jew, Gentiles or the Church. I like Rev. Larkin the best.

1hole
01-23-2021, 11:08 AM
These people can help you more than me. You can order their books on Amazon. Rev. Clarence Larkin, Dr. Scofield or Dr. Ruckman ( you can see him on Youtube). Divide that KJB Bible up to match who it's talking to: The Jew, Gentiles or the Church. I like Rev. Larkin the best.

Ah, okay! I was confused about what you meant. I think of it as dividing the unrolling of Biblical history into different ages of God's revelations, i.e., dispensions, not the Bible itself.

There is a lot of untrue crap thrown at Larkin and Schofield's illumination of the dispensations; correctly understood, those two writers make a lot of odd surface things make immediate deep sense.


Personal Trivia:

I found my (leather bound!) Schofield Bible lying on the edge of a highway in Ohio about 1985. I was gifted my treasured copy (1918 edition!) of Larson's excellent Dispensational Truth from a retired minister/Bible college teacher about 1995, shortly before his passing; it's a great book. Schofield and Larson get slandered by many "Bible experts" who obviously have not/will not actually read what they wrote.

dannyd
01-23-2021, 06:54 PM
Ah, okay! I was confused about what you meant. I think of it as dividing the unrolling of Biblical history into different ages of God's revelations, i.e., dispensions, not the Bible itself.

There is a lot of untrue crap thrown at Larkin and Schofield's illumination of the dispensations; correctly understood, those two writers make a lot of odd surface things make immediate deep sense.


Personal Trivia:

I found my (leather bound!) Schofield Bible lying on the edge of a highway in Ohio about 1985. I was gifted my treasured copy (1918 edition!) of Larson's excellent Dispensational Truth from a retired minister/Bible college teacher about 1995, shortly before his passing; it's a great book. Schofield and Larson get slandered by many "Bible experts" who obviously have not/will not actually read what they wrote.

I love it when college educated people tell me "they can't understand the KJB": I tell them it was written for people like me a 9th Grade Graduate. :)

1hole
01-23-2021, 10:30 PM
I love it when college educated people tell me "they can't understand the KJB": I tell them it was written for people like me a 9th Grade Graduate. :)

Well ....maybe. But that translation was some 400+ years ago and languages do change a bit over time. I remember when a "gay" person was bright and happy, someone fun to be around and it was a fairly common name for girls. And that was just a few decades ago, but not now because our language has changed!

I was raised on the KJV. I love it and often still read it but I recognise its shortcomings - and it has them, a lot of them. It cold outside so I've spent most of today on Youtube getting to know about the Dr. Ruckman you mentioned, and a few others who feel as he does about the KJV. IMHO, they are wrong headed. Like, they list and agonise over trivial points on words that even if they were right they absolutely do not touch on any meaningful orthodox Christian doctrines.

It appears none of them have actually tried to read an original 1611 version! I have viewed a reproduction of the original and I can guarantee you that very few people could follow or read aloud because of the weird old English spelling and grammar. (Someday I'm gonna get my own copy of it!)

I wonder if have you ever read a transliterated Bible, one that has the original (even going from right to left) and giving the literal word translations? I have one and it's simply impossible for everyone who has tried to read it make sense of most of it. Thus, we must have translations and all translations are, of necessity, "versions" because different languages simply won't swap off word for word, therefore I love to read every version I can find. But that can be awkward, so I often read/study the Amplified Bible because it often gives other words that could rightly have been used by translators instead of just one word. (If you can find a copy of the Amplified, read John 3:16 and you'll get a MUCH better understanding of what "whosoever believes in Him" actually means in that verse, and it's a lot more than simple "belief"!)

And, as for the "Authorised Version" label, Dr. Ruckman is flat wrong about it being "authorized" by the Holy Spirit or years of church tradition. King James was a Scottish Calvinist/Presbyterian. He called for and then approved the work of his translation team by making it "authorized" - by himself - to be used in the pulpits of his empire as it existed at that time; and that's all it means.

The only complete text the KJV translators had to work with was the (Roman Catholic) Vulgate, itself only a circa 310 AD translation from Greek to common Latin intended to be used in their pulpits.

All of that sorta makes people's hard feelings about the honest works of other translators seem silly, at least to me. Dr. Paul Gilcrist, one of the team leader NKJV translators for Thomas Nelson Publishers, is a friend; he's one of the most God centered men I've ever known. (But, my recognition of the KJV limitations was well formed before we meet.)

.429&H110
01-24-2021, 01:31 AM
Over at BibleHub.com you can read the King James in Koine if you want.
Our English is full of Greek. Apostrophe, Epistrophe, Hypnosis.
Greek word for the day? Kataclysm.

Did Matthew write in Greek? Probably not, but was translated to Koine.
Did Mark write in Koine? Certainly. As Peter told Mark the story of his life.
Did Luke write in Koine? Certainly. Luke was an amanuentsis.
Did John write in Koine? Don't know, likely John wrote his account first, he was there.
Did Paul write in Koine? There's the fun of Koine, studying what Paul wrote, how he wrote it and who he wrote it to. Paul's personifications of evil. His rants. His rhymes and puns. His prayers.
James was writing to Antioch, Jerusalem was leveled, so Koine.
Hebrews was written by Priscilla and Paul, in Koine.

Did Jesus speak Greek?
My Savior can talk to anybody.

1hole
01-24-2021, 09:48 PM
Language is words but it's more than words, we must also consider the grammar. Simple direct word "translations" between languages are a jumbled and confused pile of loose words. So, ALL translations are paraphrased versions even when they are done from the oldest texts we have; if they were not we couldn't begin to understand them.

Words convey certain meanings and ideas that, when placed in a coherent format - i.e., grammar - convey meanings. Many English words have basically the same meanings while other words have no direct equalivants so a translator must chose the words that means the most to him; that doesn't automatically distort the message. Instead, it means the message - the important part - can be honestly given in other words without somehow being subversive to the original message.

It's wrong, it's immature, it's not Christian to harshley argue between ourselves about words that mean the same things and suggest that anyone who disagrees is either a demonic fool or diabolical lier. I have heard it argued that if the original KJV was good enough for Paul and Silas it should be good enough for us; that's not satisfactory to me.

There is a vast differences in sentence structure (grammar) between other languages and our American English. There are no Webster's dictionaries for the old languages. And even our own definitions shift over time; some 400+ years since 1611 is a long time. Thus, honest, Godly Bible translators must do the best they can with the documents they have and I appreciate them for it.

Fact is, since 1611 many fragments of scripture and other records have been found, including the Dead Sea scrolls and the Rosetta Stone, that significantly expand word meanings that were previously either unknown, unclear or wrong. To ignore words wrongly translated in the KJV as if they were handed down directly from the hands of God isn't honest; God does not make goofs but men do!

As I said before, I love the KJV but it came from the hands of fallible men. I'm not blind to their (trivial) mistakes but I also love Bible translation accuracy.

Whatever Bible version we prefer, if we read and understand the original message the words have done all they can do. The rest is between us and God.

Texts: Titus 3:9, 2 Tim 2:14, Prov 26:4

NOTE: That respect for most versions DOES NOT include the Jehovah Witness' so-called New World Translation, or the Book of Mormon, or the RCC's Apocrifa, nor anything from the Christian Scientists, which is neither Christian or science.

.429&H110
01-25-2021, 12:56 PM
Some would say the Bible is a collection of folk tales.
My pastor insists the KJV is inerrant, literally true.
YMMV
I have here a 1963 book
"Interlinear Greek-English New Testament
with lexicon and synonyms"
by Berry.
(You can find similar at BibleHub.com at Strong's KJV or Greek interlinear.)

The book prints out the greek with the literal english underneath with the KJV printed down the side. I am astonished how accurate the KJV is. Greek is a different syntax that sometimes sounds like Yoda:

Romans 3:3-4 from the Interlinear
...For what, if not believed some? their unbelief the faith of God shall make of no effect? 4 May it not be! but let be God true, and every man false, according as it has been written, That thou shouldst be justified in thy words and overcome in thy being judged.
Amen.

There are eight greek words that are all translated judgement.
The greeks knew all about judgement.
The greeks had some odd ideas about love, grace, mercy.
We have a saying "It's Greek to me..." love was greek to them.
Jesus taught us the meaning of Love. Grace. Mercy. Charity. Truth.

And has our language slipped away, yet again?
Pilate said "What is truth?"
and was looking at his answer.

Nunc Demittis

dannyd
01-25-2021, 01:29 PM
Just saying if God can't get us his word: why bother with the rest of it. So, I will stick with the KJB.

.429&H110
01-25-2021, 11:32 PM
+!
Compare the versions in BibleHub.com.
Many men above my pay grade worked years to create the KJB.
KJB is as close as can be done in english.
KJB has it's faults, but so do I.

To reply to the OP
John 21:22
"...If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?"

That would be John, the last surviving, boiled in oil, laughing.
John died of old age, wrote Revelation in Koine.
I believe my Savior came right back, as He promised.
He came for His Apostles as they died.
By my reckoning, we are in end times.
Post-post millennial. Waiting for the world to end.
The world will end, ask any scientist.
What did you do to serve the Lord today?
When you stand before the Great White Throne,
how will you answer when the book of your life is read?
Nunc Demittis

1hole
01-31-2021, 04:08 PM
Just saying if God can't get us his word: why bother with the rest of it. So, I will stick with the KJB.

Dan, the problem you raise seems to presume that the KJV IS the "word of God", i.e., literal and without error. But -

If that is true, then God spoke in Elizabethan English and nothing archeologists have uncovered in the last 410 years changes our understandings of any anchient words; that just isn't so. All languages, old and new, shift some word meanings over time; Godly and educated translators try to learn what each word meant when it was written AND what it means today. But, so far as I can find out, NONE of the mainstream changes/corrections impact a single Christian precept so we delude ourselves struggling over Biblical trivia!

The 1611 KJV itself has been entirely revised some 5-6 times. IF today's KJV was indeed the literal "word of God", what were the previous versions; why would God allow early translators get some things wrong and only get them "right" with the newest (early 1800's) version? And, if God indeed spoke in Elizabethan English, where does that leave all other translations; are the French, Spanish, German, Dutch, etc, all studying corruptions instead of good ol' KJV English? Nah, you know that isn't so!

Please believe me, I'm not trying to change your favorite Bible. I say, "Read and study what speaks best to you and respect what others prefer." I'm only trying to help you comfortably come to accept that other (mainstream) Bible versions are not the demonic distortions some well-meaning but wrong folk say.

(And again, in my defense of other Bible versions than the KJV, let everyone understand that I do NOT include the un-Godly textural revisions and unholy published materials presented by Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Christian Scientists, 7th Day Adventists and other cults wrongly claiming to be Christian.)

dannyd
01-31-2021, 05:57 PM
Dan, the problem you raise seems to presume that the KJV IS the "word of God", i.e., literal and without error. But -

If that is true, then God spoke in Elizabethan English and nothing archeologists have uncovered in the last 410 years changes our understandings of any anchient words; that just isn't so. All languages, old and new, shift some word meanings over time; Godly and educated translators try to learn what each word meant when it was written AND what it means today. But, so far as I can find out, NONE of the mainstream changes/corrections impact a single Christian precept so we delude ourselves struggling over Biblical trivia!

The 1611 KJV itself has been entirely revised some 5-6 times. IF today's KJV was indeed the literal "word of God", what were the previous versions; why would God allow early translators get some things wrong and only get them "right" with the newest (early 1800's) version? And, if God indeed spoke in Elizabethan English, where does that leave all other translations; are the French, Spanish, German, Dutch, etc, all studying corruptions instead of good ol' KJV English? Nah, you know that isn't so!

Please believe me, I'm not trying to change your favorite Bible. I say, "Read and study what speaks best to you and respect what others prefer." I'm only trying to help you comfortably come to accept that other (mainstream) Bible versions are not the demonic distortions some well-meaning but wrong folk say.

(And again, in my defense of other Bible versions than the KJV, let everyone understand that I do NOT include the un-Godly textural revisions and unholy published materials presented by Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Christian Scientists, 7th Day Adventists and other cults wrongly claiming to be Christian.)


To me the KJB is the word of God. I don't disrespect the other books I just say away from them.

.429&H110
01-31-2021, 08:13 PM
Mark 24:4
"And Jesus answered and said
take heed that no man deceive you."

I believe we have a responsibility
to know the Truth
so that we do not deceive
or be deceived.
And to teach this responsibility to the kids.
We are here to worship, pray,
teach, and preach,
tell the Truth,
until the world ends.
Hallelujah!
Check out Revelation 22:20 in Koine.

1hole
01-31-2021, 08:41 PM
To me the KJB is the word of God. I don't disrespect the other books I just say away from them.

Okay, I understand and appreciate that as your personal position.

(I want to ask, "Which version of that translation effort do you prefer, the original or the current version?" and "How valuable do you consider Bibles in other languages compared to your copy of God's original words?" I want to ask ... but I won't. ;))

dannyd
01-31-2021, 09:30 PM
Okay, I understand and appreciate that as your personal position.

(I want to ask, "Which version of that translation effort do you prefer, the original or the current version?" and "How valuable do you consider Bibles in other languages compared to your copy of God's original words?" I want to ask ... but I won't. ;))

To uneducated to know all that other stuff: sometimes ignorance is really bliss :)

I read a 1917 Scofield

1hole
02-01-2021, 02:09 PM
To uneducated to know all that other stuff: sometimes ignorance is really bliss :)

Guess that's why I'm usually so happy!


I read a 1917 Scofield

So do I at times. That's what I found lying on the highway in Ohio in 1985; it replaced the falling apart standard KJV I received for 1959 high school graduation.

I could read my old KJV but I thought I'd died and gone to heaven when my wife got me an Amplified New Testament for 1966 Christmas and I read Romans in real English for the first time! When I read John 3:16-18 in real English a lot more came clear. In fact, that's what started me in a real study of the Bible. I sure don't "know-it-all" - yet! - but I've been very blessed by going deeper into the Bible message than just reading surface words captured in distracting KJV/Elizabethan grammar.