Thoughts on 327 Federal and 357 Max Cast in 30"Bbl

[GARD72977]

I thinking about a straight wall case for a singleshot. This is going to be a short range 50-100yd gun. Just something to take to the range.

Barrel will probably be 30". Bullets will be cast Powder Coated.

327 is intresting choice. Economy would be good and it would not eat into my lead stash as much. Case capacity is a concern when looking at slower than normal powders. Thinking about 120ish gr bullets

357 Max is a safe choice. It has the capacity for slower powders but uses almost as much lead as a 38/55.

I'm looking to fulfill a niche. I will do a custom reamer for either one. It's not a lot of money compared to the total cost of the gun. I want to have the throat fit my mold of choice perfectly.

I'm concerned about the long barrel giving large ES velocity. I feel like a powder coated (lube groove) bullet would handle the longer barrel. The reduced bearing surface should help. These are just thoughts I have no proof to back this up.

Any thoughts?

[dtknowles]

I like a gun I shoot at the range at 100 yard to give a clear indication of a hit on the gong. Yeah, the .357 Max or even .357 mag. should handle that even with bullets as light as 125 grains. The real question is can you get there with .327 mag. I don't know. I do know that my 7.62 x 25 (similar to .327 mag.) would not reliably knock over the plates on the 25 yard plate rack. I think the bigger cartridge would give you more flexibility but then with a purpose built gun you are not looking for flexibility.

I don't think you have much choice but to get a custom reamer, I don't think you can find a good available reamer design for these revolver cartridges for rifle barrels but I could be wrong. There is not a lot of space in that .327 case so you will want to seat bullets as far out as long as possible.

Tim

[megasupermagnum]

I think both cartridges would be wasted on such a long barrel. 327 federal is topped out at around 16 1/2", and I can't imagine 357 maximum builds speed much past 20". I'm thinking by 30", they would both be slower than a slightly shorter barrel.

In 327 federal, H110 or 4227 are about as slow as will provide ideal performance. I've seen some loads with 5744, but nothing slower. Why would slow powders be a concern? Faster powders are cheaper.

In a single shot rifle, you could shoot some really heavy bullets in 327 if you wished. 165 grain would not be crazy. At 120 grain, you could hit 2000 fps. Having the barrel made with a .308" groove would not be a bad idea.

357 max is a good cartridge of course. I think it makes most sense in a break action like a TC contender. If you were using a stronger action, I might look at something different. Don't discount the 357 magnum.

[GARD72977]

Thanks for the replies.

The reason for the 30" bbl is for shootability and cosmetic. I'm a big guy. I shoot mostly offhand. I dont enjoy leverguns because of Weight. The gun is a Remington Hepburn that been pushed back by new purchases. Im ready to do something with it now.

The 327 would be made from a 308blank. I usually shoot .310-.311 PC bullets in a 30 cal anyway.

I dont have to knock any steel down just ring it. I dont have a lot of interest in a heavyweight bullet for the 327.

If I'm going to have a reamer made I want something a little different in a rifle. I would be more interested in 38spl than 357.

The niche for this gun is 100yd or less , easy and cheap to reload. It must give good ES and SD in long bbl at least 28" but I would lke 30" I just dont think that 2" is going to make much difference.

I have seen the Ballistic by the inch info. I would think a lead bullet loaded with slightly slower powder would give better results and have less pressure with longer barrels.

Thos does not have to maximize cartridge performance. Just hashing out options.

[GARD72977]

I think both cartridges would be wasted on such a long barrel. 327 federal is topped out at around 16 1/2", and I can't imagine 357 maximum builds speed

In 327 federal, H110 or 4227 are about as slow as will provide ideal performance. I've seen some loads with 5744, but nothing slower. Why would slow powders be a concern? Faster powders are cheaper.

.

Two reasons in the 327. First is to keep velocity ES low in a long Barrel.

The second reason is the powder charge is small anyway. A little more powder would not cost much. Using a dillion powder measure I expect some deviation. The % would be smaller with a larger load.
I'm not saying that Unique can be accurrate. I'm just wanting to plan

[Jedman]

I like your plan and the caliber. A small bore Hepburn would be really cool. As far as the long barrel, a lot of BSA
Martini target and Martini International rifles had 29 inch barrels in 22 lr and they are superbly accurate.
Like any rifle you need to find what it likes but with a quality barrel and a snug chamber it should shoot very well.

Jedman

[cwlongshot]

I have Maxis in 17.5, 21 & 24". Using 1680 and a 180SSP THE LONGER BARREL GETS ROP VELOCITY BY ALMOST 200 FPS!!

I like the lil 327 allot. I'm late to the party but trying to make up for it!! I have been shooting a LYMAN 150g RN with Blue dot to almost 1100 fps a d great accuracy. So I bought a 135 WFN made for the Ruger S7 and I can get it going 1250 from my 5.5" with Blue Dot!! It shoits VERY VERY WELL!

I have a 32/20 Carbine otherwise Id have a 327!!

cW

[barrabruce]

A 120 or 150 grn bullet and a pinch of bullseye it ought to be frugal and be accurate and a pretty quiet lettuce protector and walking companion.

[dverna]

There is significant difference between a .327 Mag and .357 Max.

For shooting up to 100 yards, I would lean to the .327. Less lead and powder.

I doubt the longer barrel does much for accuracy unless you use aperture sights to get the longer sight radius. You may be overthinking the ES side of the accuracy equation. A shorter, fatter barrel will be stiffer and heat up less plus be "handier" if that matters.

One thing to consider is having the barrel threaded for a suppressor. Makes using a shorter barrel a smarter move. If it was my gun I would look at a 20-22" barrel somewhere between a medium and heavy weight profile.

[Milsurp Junkie]

What about 30 Reese or 30 Badger? I still long after one as a single shot woods rifle.

[megasupermagnum]

I see no harm in using a 30" barrel. I have no experience with pistol cartridges in that long of a barrel, but I don't see how that would effect the velocity ES at all. I've shot 45 ACP in some longer 22" barrels, and velocity ES were very similar to the pistols. I think you will really like 327. The reloading dies available often oversize brass, which is where you often see problems of cases splitting. They will hold a .308" bullet with no modification. There is no harm in trying slower powders, but I would give H110 a try first. It isn't one to reduce charges very far, but it meters like the finest sand, and shoots great.

[GARD72977]

Slow down guys! This is a 120 year old Remington Hepburn no.3

There will be no short barrells or silencers.

The 327 Federal and 357 Max are very similar to 1800's Ballard cartridges. The Ballards were heeled. Not wanting to go down this road. Just wanting a to stay some what traditional.

[P Flados]

I shoot a lot of both the 327 and the 357 Max.

For "just shooting" cast boolits, I see the 327 as really hard to beat. It is very easy to work with and can deliver nice shooting with both less powder and less lead.

If you are one of the rare casters that has an unlimited supply of lead, there is less of an advantage. If you never worry about sourcing more lead, I would recommend considering the 360 DW over the max. In my opinion, you get a much more versatile gun with an insignificant loss in performance. A 360 will give "close enough" performance to the max, but has much better chances for shooting good with 357 mag brass.

And, I second the idea of thinking about a 30 Badger. As good as or better performance than the 327 and made from 38 special brass.

[GARD72977]

This project is a tag-a-long gun for my single shot range days. A 30 Reece is just not in tune with the theme of this gun. I'm not interested versatility at all. I want a purpose built gun for a small straight wall case. I want to discuss how to achieve the right performance for 100yd shooting with these two cartridges.

I'm going to buy 1k cases and reload progressive.

I'm really interested in opinions on how these cartridges may perform in longer than normal barrells (30') and possible bullets that are not normal weight. There is no published data for long barrells with heavier bullets.

Not looking for hot maxium loads.

[megasupermagnum]

There is lots of 115 grain bullet data for 327 federal. I wouldn't worry about using a 120 grain bullet instead, especially when you only want to shoot mild loads. I'm sure someone out there has shot 357 max with a 26" or 28" barrel. My best guess is you will see some velocity loss, but I would have to think you would be within 100 fps of a slightly shorter 20" or so barrel. It's possible you might not see any loss at all. Some things you can look into, both 30 carbine and 32-20 are near twins to the 327 federal.

I think you will be very happy with 327 federal with IMR 4227, and that powder can reduce down safely.

[WestKentucky]

For a single shot plinker I would LOVE a 327. For a repeater that might eventually find other uses than range toy then it would be a different caliber. There are better options though because properly sized barrel blanks are nonexistent, so that pushes towards 30carbine but 30 carbine headspaces on the case mouth which kills the ammo interchangeability of a 327. Perhaps bastardize the thing and use a 327case shooting a 30 caliber bullet with a longer throat without any sudden step. That leaves open all the ammo interchangeability but also allows for an easily sourced barrel and even more common bullet weights. The lesser 32s could either be loaded with .308 bullets as well and use a FCD to secure them or you could use a softer lead bullet and let it swage down in the barrel. That is the direction I want to go, and already would have if they would chamber a contender barrel in 327.

It’s also been a thought for my really wierd Arisaka 38 build but I think it’s going bushmaster.

[P Flados]

I'm really interested in opinions on how these cartridges may perform in longer than normal barrells (30') and possible bullets that are not normal weight. There is no published data for long barrells with heavier bullets.


30 feet is a bit much, I would shorten it to something more like 2.5 feet :D

With your discussion of progressive loading, it does sound like a volume operation where going with the 327 would save a bunch as compared to going with a 357 max. For what it is worth, I load / shoot both (for much shorter guns) and find the 327 much more fun.

You mentioned 120 gr for the 327. Bullets in the 110 gr to 130 gr range actually sound pretty good for your stated purpose, but only if you seat them out pretty long.

I made myself a custom 126 gr NLG for the 300 BO a while back and have it loaded in my Quickload software. I picked 0.315" for seating depth to maintain good bullet pull and decent net powder capacity. I then ran some 327 loads for you to look at. With H110 and charges from 11 to 13 gr, you get good load densities and go from just over 1600 fps up to around 1900 fps. With 4227 the small net case capacity is really not enough to give good performance. Accurate Number 9 does about the same performance as H110, but uses less case capacity.

If you want a more refined QL study, it would help a lot to have a specific bullet weight, bullet length, AOL (or seating depth) and specific powders of interest.

As far as performance from a long barrel, I really do not think it is anything to worry about at this point. In the long run, just say to yourself that starting a "little too long" is a lot easier to fix than starting a "little too short".

Cartridge : .327 Federal Magnum
Bullet : .309, 126, NLG BO
Useable Case Capaci: 12.925 grain H2O = 0.839 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.630 inch = 41.40 mm
Barrel Length : 30.0 inch = 762.0 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H110

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-08.3 86 11.00 1624 738 19296 1218 86.2 2.145
-06.7 88 11.20 1654 765 20442 1245 87.1 2.097
-05.0 89 11.40 1683 793 21648 1271 88.0 2.051
-03.3 91 11.60 1713 821 22922 1297 88.9 2.007
-01.7 92 11.80 1742 849 24269 1322 89.7 1.963
+00.0 94 12.00 1772 878 25696 1346 90.5 1.922
+01.7 95 12.20 1801 908 27206 1369 91.3 1.882
+03.3 97 12.40 1830 937 28807 1391 92.1 1.843
+05.0 99 12.60 1859 967 30505 1413 92.8 1.805
+06.7 100 12.80 1889 998 32306 1433 93.5 1.768
+08.3 102 13.00 1918 1029 34218 1453 94.1 1.733

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 94 12.00 1880 989 32346 1373 96.6 1.773
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 94 12.00 1636 749 19769 1257 81.3 2.122


Cartridge : .327 Federal Magnum
Bullet : .309, 126, NLG BO
Useable Case Capaci: 12.925 grain H2O = 0.839 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.630 inch = 41.40 mm
Barrel Length : 30.0 inch = 762.0 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4227

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-09.5 87 9.50 1361 518 14489 894 70.7 2.523
-07.6 89 9.70 1390 541 15330 923 71.9 2.464
-05.7 91 9.90 1419 563 16201 953 73.1 2.406
-03.8 93 10.10 1448 587 17128 983 74.3 2.351
-01.9 94 10.30 1477 611 18104 1012 75.4 2.297
+00.0 96 10.50 1507 635 19134 1041 76.6 2.245
+01.9 98 10.70 1536 660 20224 1070 77.7 2.195
+03.8 100 10.90 1566 686 21372 1098 78.8 2.146
+05.7 102 11.10 1595 712 22597 1126 79.8 2.099
+07.6 104 11.30 1625 739 23891 1154 80.9 2.053
+09.5 105 11.50 1654 766 25262 1181 81.9 2.009

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 96 10.50 1618 732 22760 1132 85.5 2.073
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 96 10.50 1382 534 15837 914 66.0 2.461


Cartridge : .327 Federal Magnum
Bullet : .309, 126, NLG BO
Useable Case Capaci: 12.925 grain H2O = 0.839 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.630 inch = 41.40 mm
Barrel Length : 30.0 inch = 762.0 mm
Powder : Accurate No.9

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

+00.0 79 10.00 1790 896 32834 1136 98.8 1.817
+02.0 81 10.20 1818 925 34743 1150 99.1 1.780
+04.0 82 10.40 1846 953 36752 1164 99.3 1.745
+06.0 84 10.60 1874 982 38867 1176 99.6 1.711 ! Near Maximum !
+08.0 85 10.80 1901 1011 41096 1187 99.7 1.679 ! Near Maximum !
+10.0 87 11.00 1928 1040 43445 1197 99.9 1.648 ! Near Maximum !

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 79 10.00 1852 959 39025 1085 100.0 1.721 ! Near Maximum !
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 79 10.00 1701 810 26902 1137 94.1 1.949

[Meatpuppet]

I’ll admit I don’t have much experience with the 327, but it seems you might be pigeonholing yourself to the limits of the 327. As soon as you find your favorite load for 100 yards, you’ll be asking yourself “What else can I do with it?” I think the 357 Max offers a lot more versatility. Its pretty efficient in short 10” barrels with heavy bullets and a 16” barrel will really zip with lighter bullets.

I have a 357 Maximum Contender G2 project build from a 10” Match Grade Machine barrel stub, and chambered to load out to 2.20" OAL. Using Vihtavuori N110, I can push a coated swaged lead projectile suppressed at 1050fps or a 182gr swaged jacketed projectile at 2000fps (that one is a bit spicy). All in a package that folds up and fits in a backpack. I might be missing some performance by not using other powders, but I have a lot of Vit available.
273921
273922
273923

[WestKentucky]

I’ll admit I don’t have much experience with the 327, but it seems you might be pigeonholing yourself to the limits of the 327. As soon as you find your favorite load for 100 yards, you’ll be asking yourself “What else can I do with it?” I think the 357 Max offers a lot more versatility. Its pretty efficient in short 10” barrels with heavy bullets and a 16” barrel will really zip with lighter bullets.

I have a 357 Maximum Contender G2 project build from a 10” Match Grade Machine barrel stub, and chambered to load out to 2.20" OAL. Using Vihtavuori N110, I can push a coated swaged lead projectile suppressed at 1050fps or a 182gr swaged jacketed projectile at 2000fps (that one is a bit spicy). All in a package that folds up and fits in a backpack. I might be missing some performance by not using other powders, but I have a lot of Vit available.
273921
273922
273923
Is that the new grip module by Sharp? I really like the looks of it. What brace is that?

[Meatpuppet]

Yes. Thats the Sharps Grip Module. Its awesome!

Contender G2 Frame
Sharps Bros. T/C G2 Contender Grip -1913 Picatinny Interface (BLACK)
Sig folding brace (the SB Tactical Brace was not available)
MGM 357 Maximum 10" Barrel (custom long throat)
Super 14 forend
TPS Products XRT 30mm S-Low 7075 Aluminum Scope Rings
Trijicon AccuPoint 1-4x24 (TR24G) Green Triangle Reticle

Its my new go-to gun for almost everything now; pigs, deer, angry paper... I have little T-Rex arms so it fits me perfect.

[GARD72977]

Could a 327 keep this bullet supersonic to 100yds?
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/308-311/311-137-rf-ca3/311-137-rf-ca3-2-cavity-pb/

[Jedman]

Could a 327 keep this bullet supersonic to 100yds?
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/308-311/311-137-rf-ca3/311-137-rf-ca3-2-cavity-pb/

Without a doubt.

Jedman

[GARD72977]

327 federal mold options

1. Generic throat for all pistol type bullets that have a SWC style front driving band. This is proven but not expecting stellar accurracy. Allows for many different molds to be used.

2. NOE 311-137-RF-CA3. This should work well. With a custom throat this is probably the only mold that will work.

3. Have a custom mold made for .2 held in case. NLG with .309 driving band .2 long Straight taper to .301 for .3" with a rounded nose and flat meplet. Using accurrate 31-125b as a starting point.

This would be very intresting. No real lead or freebore. The .3 of taper from .309 to .301 would work as about .8 ish degree leade. Seat the bullet right off the lands so it will be fully supported in .3 inch of Leade before it clears the case mouth.

If it works that's awesome. If it doesn't work then it's an expensive mistake....

[P Flados]

The 137 is a nose rider. These frequently do not work very well when powder coated.

What about the NOE 311-127-FN-L2 (https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/308-311/311-127-fn-l2/311-127-fn-l2-2-cavity-pb-311465/). It is in stock in as a PB in both 2 and 4 Cavity. This one has 5 very small grooves that should work pretty good as crimp grooves when using PC. Seating depth would be around 0.33" to the middle groove, or 0.25" to the next one down.

I loaded NOE's 0.1684 BC into Quick target.

With 1900 fps at the muzzle, estimated velocities were 1790 fps at 50 yds, 1683 fps at 100 yds and 1477 fps at 200 yds.

With 1800 fps at the muzzle, estimated velocities were 1693 fps at 50 yds, 1588 fps at 100 yds and 1386 fps at 200 yds.

[P Flados]

I also went out & looked at Accurate. These looked interesting

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-110JZ-D.png
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-111H-D.png
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-120B-D.png
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-132Z-D.png

[P Flados]

And one more from NOE. This one is on the light side, but would probably work better than you might think and would definitely be cheap and easy to use.

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/308-311/308-106-fn-bw3/308-106-fn-bw3-4-cavity-pb/

With only 1800 fps at the muzzle (mild load), it should retain an estimated 1597 at 100 yds.

[GARD72977]

[QUOTE=P Flados;5066720]The 137 is a nose rider. These frequently do not work very well when powder coated.

What about the NOE 311-127-FN-L2 (https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/308-311/311-127-fn-l2/311-127-fn-l2-2-cavity-pb-311465/).

I have this mold.

Bore rides work great for me Powder Coated. The problem is most will not fit in the Throat because they are too large. If I'm having a reamer made I want the boreriding nose large so it engages the rifling.

[GARD72977]

I also went out & looked at Accurate. These looked interesting

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-110JZ-D.png
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-111H-D.png
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-120B-D.png
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-132Z-D.png

All these designs have too much in supported nose weight.

These designs are made to fit existing throats. This does not promote accurracy.

Powder Coat works as a lube. I want as much of the bullet in the rifling as possible while still having a small nose

[MT Gianni]

I don't know what you're lubing with but with a 30" tube you may run out of lube with a small, single groove 30 cal boolit.

[GARD72977]

Powder coat

[GARD72977]

I also shoot a 32-20 schuetzen rifle with 30" bbl

[megasupermagnum]

I can't help with what bullet to use, but I would lean to something that does not have any bore riding nose. If you are only looking for a 120ish grain bullet, they are already rather stubby. I'd be looking at something more like the Accurate 31-120EG, and modified to suit your fancy.

You definitely want a leade into the rifling. A straight tapered entrance, forcing cone for lack of a better term, is not the way to go for accuracy. The Mountain Molds forum used to have a great write up from Dan, who tested a number of different styles. Since he retired last month, it appears the forum is now gone. That is too bad, that was a good read. Ultimately he found his best cast bullet accuracy was had with throat similar to most rifles, but with a very gentle leade into the rifling, I want to say around a 1 degree taper. So you do want some straight free bore, followed by a gentle taper to the rifling. You also want to size your bullets to match the straight sized free bore, so they are fully supported the whole way.

[uscra112]

FWIW I've got a Stevens Model 47, 30" barrel chambered .32-20, which did very well thank you very much with the old traditional 3118 bullet, cast about BHN 14, lubed with NRA beeswax/alox, seated to just cover the second grease groove but not crimped. Weight 120 grains lubed. Charge was 8.7 grains 2400. Grouped around 3" at 100. Not bad for a 110-year-old barrel, tang-and-globe sights off an improvised rest and 70-year-old eyes. Fun to shoot, easy on the powder and lead stash.

No reason why a .327 Federal can't do the same or better, given that (according to the Internet) the powder space is about the same as the .32-20. Or you could crank it up using jacketed bullets, but why?

Neat feature of my PB load was that the muzzle pressure is very low as the bullet exits, so it was almost like I had a suppressor on it. This is not a rifle for subsonic loads however; I stuck bullets in the barrel trying.