.38 Special WC oal?

[Mk42gunner]

After casting up somewhere around 1200 wadcutters for use in the .38 Special in my revolvers, it dawned on me that 99% of my brass is non WC brass. Seating a few to the crimp groove for trials before loading them all (you can teach an old dog new tricks after all). I had problems chambering them do to unsightly bulging of the cases. Even Starline brass.

Thinking about it for a while I came to question the need for a WC to be seated so deeply. I can see needing a flush fit depth for a magazine fed gun, but not for a revolver. Especially since only one lube groove is needed, or tumble lube.

Anybody see any real problems with seating the projectile out, and taper crimping into one of the drive bands?

Boolits were sized to .358 lubed with BLL, and pass easily through the cylinder of my Colt Officer's Model Match. A bit tighter fit in the K-38, but still usable.

Thought I'd ask before loading a thousand or so,

Robert

[USSR]

Anybody see any real problems with seating the projectile out, and taper crimping into one of the drive bands?

Nope, as long as they chamber. While I have a bunch of WC brass, the best non-WC brass for deeply seated bullets in the .38 Special is Federal.

Don

[Outpost75]

For revolver use I like the Saeco #348 146-grain DEWC, which is a double-end, bevel-base with crimp groove on each end. I normally orient the bullets with the sprue cutoff forward to ensure a clean base, and then roll crimp using the Redding Profile Crimp die, forming the case mouth into the beveled crimp groove behind the front driving band, so that the exposed band fits and aligns the cartridge in the cylinder throats. This results in a cartridge OAL of about 1.24". I prefer loading "full charge" wadcutters using 3.0-3.2 grains of Bullseye with the deeper-seated, taper-crimped, Remington HBWC component bullets and 3.5 grains of Bullseye with the 146-grain Saeco #348 DEWC bullets seated out and roll-crimped crimped with the bevel-base and front driving band exposed.

273604 273605

For semi-auto match pistols bullets must be flush-seated with only the "button" on the nose of factory HBWC component bullets protruding, or alternately with the DEWCs seating so that the taper crimp is over the base bevel such that cartridge OAL is about 1.16", using only enough taper crimp to remove mouth flare.

[la5676]

I guess it’s a good thing I got out of bed today too, cause I learnt something I never knew either. I never knew there was such a thing as special WC brass. What’s different about it. I’ve simply crimped the case into the crimp groove all these years.

[JM7.7x58]

I have found that Winchester and RP will chamber reliably in my Security Six with a flush seated 148gr lee sized to .358”.

Everything else goes in the non-wadcutter coffee can. That’s how I segregate my brass.

JM

[JoeJames]

I guess it’s a good thing I got out of bed today too, cause I learnt something I never knew either. I never knew there was such a thing as special WC brass. What’s different about it. I’ve simply crimped the case into the crimp groove all these years. "special WC brass".Same here! That one must not have made it across the Mississippi.

[tazman]

Read the first page or two of this link. It will tell you all you need to know about wadcutter brass. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?156622-75-000-Wadcutters-in-a-Model-27

Most solid wadcutters don't really need wadcutter brass to work properly. The extra length of the hollow based wadcutter that is loaded fully inside the brass is where the need comes from.

Mk42gunner-- I often load wadcutters longer and crimp into one of the lube grooves. The only issue I ever ran into was sizing the boolits to fit the chamber throats. If you leave the boolits too large in diameter and seat too long, they will be difficult to impossible to push into the chamber since the front drive band will jam into the throat. If the boolits are a snug fit too the chamber throat and seated long enough for the front band to enter the throat, you get excellent alignment with the throat and barrel making for slightly better accuracy. It does make reloads slower as each cartridge must be pushed fully into the cylinder.
Trade-offs in everything.

[bedbugbilly]

+1 ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

taxman gives an excellent overview of it.

I have always loaded my WC loads out further than what they were designed for. All have shot well. As taxman points out, the cylinder throats and your boolit diameter will dictate the fit of the cartridge in the chamber so always make up some dummy loads to try and make your adjustments from there.

One of the best shooting loads out of my Uberti 1851 Navy Richards & Mason Conbersion is a 148 grain WC (Ideal/Lyman 358-091) seated out and rolled crimped into a lube groove over either a mild load of BE or RD. My cylinder throats are pretty generous on that pistol so I load them as they drop at about .3585 - .359.

In my Smith 36 snub that I sometimes carry, my SD load is a 160 grain WC seated out and roll crimped into a lube groove. In fact, IIRC, it was taxman who gave me some advice on that. On my 36, the throats are tighter and I found that I had to size them and adjust COAL on them as I had the "tightness problem that he describes.

I have never used a taper crimp on mine as I just prefer to use a roll crimp. Load some p and try them seated out with a taper crimp and your load and it will soon tell you if you are going to have any issues with boolit jump, but I would imagine that a taper crimp would work just fine.

[USSR]

How to identify .38 Special wadcutter brass:

Both Winchester and Remington use 2 cannelures. Federal only uses one cannelure, but it's located just north of mid-case, as opposed to their regular brass having the single cannelure just below the case mouth.

Don

[Drm50]

I load the Button Nose Lyman/ Ideal in 38sp WC cases. I’ve have loaded that way for 50yrs and they function in K38 and m52 both. I use same bullet ( except .45 cal ) in standard 45 Colt cases, loaded flush, same as for 44sp. I have loaded them crimped into a grease groove. I didn’t see much difference in accuracy so I load as normal WC. I thought loading the WC out would up the accuracy because “ jump” from cylinder to barrel would be less. I was wrong.

[Mk42gunner]

Thanks for the replies, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't committing a big boo-boo and setting up some fine older guns for spontaneous disassembly.

The reason I mentioned a taper crimp is because my "set" of .38 dies is comprised of a mixture of an old RCBS steel sizer three die set and a CH set that was originally used on an auto champ MKV. It makes good ammo normally, so the bulges really raised some concerns, then when the dummies didn't just fall into the chambers the caution flag was waved violently.

The boolit is the Lee 358-148 WC from a six cavity mold. Powder will most likely be W231, since I have quite a bit of it on hand.

I just wish I could see the sights as well as I could fifteen years ago, I am afraid I won't be able to do justice to the potential accuracy of these fine revolvers.

Robert

[USSR]

...I just wanted to make sure I wasn't committing a big boo-boo and setting up some fine older guns for spontaneous disassembly.

Seating the bullets out to a greater COAL will only lower the pressure/velocity, so using load data for a flush seated wadcutter will not result in "spontaneous disassembly".

Don

[Mk42gunner]

Yes sir, I realize that. However, the case bulging caused by the projectile resulting in hard chambering may cause pressure issues do to no release clearance.

Rovert

[USSR]

Robert,

Gotcha. I loaded up a bunch of wadcutters up for my daughter last month, and I ran into some of the same problems with certain makes of brass. The absolute worst was PMC. As I mentioned previously, see if you can lay your hands on some Federal brass and seat them only as deep as you need to to get them to chamber.

Don

[Outpost75]

Yes sir, I realize that. However, the case bulging caused by the projectile resulting in hard chambering may cause pressure issues do to no release clearance.

Rovert

The best technical solution to this is to use the Redding Profile Crimp die as the final stage on your progressive loading machine to ensure that cartridges chamber freely without excessive bullet deformation. IMHO the Redding die does a much better job than the Lee Factory Crimp die and is simpler to use. Well worth the extra cost.

[JM7.7x58]

The best technical solution to this is to use the Redding Profile Crimp die as the final stage on your progressive loading machine to ensure that cartridges chamber freely without excessive bullet deformation. IMHO the Redding die does a much better job than the Lee Factory Crimp die and is simpler to use. Well worth the extra cost.
There is no need to buy a new die. All you have to do is sort your brass by headstamp. Measure it at the depth the wadcutter will be seated to. If that brand of brass maintains a consistent thickness from the mouth to the seating depth you will be fine. I use Winchester and RP, Don uses Federal.

What you may need to buy is an expander that is long enough to expand all the way to your seating depth.

And, Don is correct that PMC is far and away the worst brass for this type of load. It is very thick at wadcutter seating depths. PMC brass is what taught me about this little problem.

JM

[ABJ]

All good info already posted, but I don't know how many tens of thousands of wadcutters I have loaded and tested for NRA Bullseye competitions. My best shooting boolit is the Lee 148 bnwc. crimped in the crimp groove. The harder the boolit the tighter the crimp should be. At 20:1 alloy the inside of the mouth is just under the front driving band. Very light. 98% of the time this length proved to be the most accurate in a Smith model 14,15 and Colt Trooper. I agree the regular Federal cases are the best of non wadcutter cases. CBC seemed to be a close second. The bottom lube groove only with Carnuba red is the best in my test. I did notice that case length and resulting crimp pressure played a major role in accuracy.
I tested several powders, 20:1 or soft alloy I use either 3.4 of HP-38 or Unique, no difference in my test. With harder alloys bump it up a tenth. I did not like the standard Bullseye loadings but Red Dot did pretty good from 2.9 up to 3.1

For my kids, grandkids I keep several hundred loaded in various brand cases with the above loads all shot in various single actions and snub nose fixed sight guns as well as Smith model 10's and very accurate and shoots to the sights on 90% of them. As far as plinking ammo goes this is the only thing I keep loaded for 38 special.

I hope all my test results will help.
Tony

[Petrol & Powder]

Good information above, I'll add a little.

I'll second Outpost75's endorsement of the Redding Profile Crimp Die. That is a good piece of gear and it yields excellent results.

With the OP's sizing to .358", I have to wonder why he is getting a case bulge even with standard, non-wadcutter brass. My first question is, "are we really dealing with .358" bullets"? Might be time to pull out a micrometer.

Another issue could be the expander. If the expander is not reaching deep enough into the case, the base of the bullet may be acting like an expander during seating. Because the lead bullet is soft, the bulge the OP is seeing may be more of an out of round issue, rather than just a simple bulge.
When dealing with wadcutters, I find a lot of expanders don't reach deep enough into the case, nor do they expand the brass enough for cast bullets. I have found that a larger (both in diameter and depth) expander with the Lyman "M" die type step will give very good results.

A solid wadcutter of roughly 148 grains and seated to the crimp groove shouldn't be bulging the casing enough to cause chambering problems. Seating the bullet farther out may be one solution but I would prefer to track down the problem as opposed to simply reducing seating depth.

Are the chambers clean? Are we really dealing with a .358" bullet? Is the expander doing its job properly?
I think it's worth a little investigating.

[45DUDE]

I lucked into an H&G 148 6 cavity BNWC mold and Star lube sizer at the same time years ago and tried different lengths and it works best for me seated flush with the nose sticking out and a slight roll crimp. This functions in my N.M. Colt 38 special and Clark long slides and my wheel guns without changing anything but the powder charge.xx<I do have a case of Winchester 38 special wad cutter brass once fired in original boxes.>I have never used it. I prefer brass without a cannelure. Wad cutter brass have 2.

[Drm50]

I’m 70 and been loading 38sp WC for about 50yrs. Still using single stage press and standard dies although it’s a deluxe set with 3 seaters. I’ve never had a problem with K38 or m52. I also had M&P target and Colt Diamond back until recently. All shot same loads. All my WC brass is Fed or Win. I do load WCs in other standard cases for plinking ammo. Works in the revolvers, don’t know about m52. Have several hundred loaded in GI brass.

[Mk42gunner]

All good ideas.

I'll look into getting one of the Redding profile crimp dies. I don't currently have an operational progressive, but I am refurbishing a Lyman turret press with six holes.

The bullets do measure 0.358", I checked mainly to verify the brand new Lee sizing die was performing correctly. I measured with both a dial caliper and a micrometer.

The expander not being long enough might be the real culprit here, it is from the RCBS set that was originally meant to deprime as well as expand the neck/ case mouth. I can forsee a new M-die in my future.

Guns were clean when I did the test chambering. After the first hard to chamber dummy round I thought I had a problem so I rechecked and even recleaned the chambers of the first gun.

I even dug out my Lyman ball type micrometer and most of the cases measure 0.097-0.010" down at least as far as the bullets seat, which is part of why I'm so confused as I thought that was what WC brass was supposed to measure.

I need to do some digging in the old house, seems like I remember using an M-die when I was loading .35 Remington a few years ago.

(Next day) No luck finding the .35 cal M-die.

Robert

[Mk42gunner]

Success!

The new Lyman M-die did the trick, cartridges freely enter the chambers even before crimping with the Redding Profile crimp die.

Thanks for all the help. It just didn't make sense to me that the set of .38 dies that I have loaded countless rounds of .38 and .357 ammo with over the years could be the problem, but I wasn't trying to seat projectiles as deeply as a WC either.

I did dig out my lone can of Bullseye to compare with 231, but we had a small ice storm here last night, with light snow today. When the ice has melted, I will try the loads for comparison.

On the good side, I did get the Lyman turret press operational. It is much easier to use than the Lyman Acculine (even with it bolted down).

Robert