Stuck Round Ball

[GregLaROCHE]

I recently purchased an original French 1777 Tbis from an online auction. It is a rifle that started out as a smooth bore flintlock and later the barrel was rifled and modified for a percussion cap.

When I received it I found that it was still charged with a ball and I think powder as well. By the looks of the gun, I think it has been this way for a long time. Possibly over fifty years. I have been trying to remove the ball with a ball worm. Luckily I seem to have a good hold onto it, which has not always been my experience removing other round balls. I haven’t been able to loosen the nipple yet, but did unblock the hole with a small drill. There seems to be BP in the chamber. I’ve soaked the barrel and charge with Ballistol overnight, but the ball still won’t budge. I’m out of real penetrating oil, but will be getting some later today and try soaking it with that.

What to do next? If it were a gun that was recently loaded I would try to fire it out, by putting a little bit of 4F under the nipple. Because I believe it’s been stuck for so long, I am afraid there may be too much pressure, especially if some of the old powder ignites. The barrel is off the gun and I am considering putting the end of the barrel in boiling water to hopefully loosen things up. Would that be a good idea?

All ideas and advice appreciated. Thanks

[hawkenhunter50]

I've heard of using a grease gun to push stuck balls out, if you can get the nipple removed and are able to put a fitting on to use with the grease gun. Always thought it sounded like it'd be a real mess to clean up though.

[GregLaROCHE]

That’s a good idea. I thought about compressed air, but didn’t think it have enough pressure. Has anyone had experience adapting a Zirt fitting to a nipple hole?

[45workhorse]

It worked on a CVA Hawkins.
Clean up was easier than you would think. Rubber tipped on air gun, pressed hard where the nipple goes, pointed at the garbage can 90-95% of grease went into the can!

[Battis]

I have an antique Belgium smoothbore long gun that I had relined in .50. The new liner didn't make it all the way to the bottom of the barrel. With powder, the ball was raised above the end of the liner. Without powder, the ball actually came in at, or slightly below, the end of the liner.
Of course, one brain-dead time, I didn't put powder in, and the ball got jammed. Bottom line - I couldn't get powder, air, grease, or anything under the ball. Luckily it was pure lead, so I just kept working it with the worm and a screw threaded into a bottom of a metal rod. I cut through the ball, and kept working that screw. Eventually it all came out.
I actually bought a very cheap bore scope that worked well.

[gumbo333]

For cheap good penetrating oil mix ATF with kerosene or diesel fuel 50/50. Pour some of that mixture down the barrel and let set a couple hours.

[MarkW]

I'd try using a metal rod and a 2 lb hammer to whack it in a 1/4 inch or so, then try pulling it out after you've broken it free. My approach to making certain the powder was neutralized and not an issue would be to put the breech in a pot of boiling water until it stopped bubbling, then put in a pot of cold water for a few minutes so when it cooled down the water would get drawn in. Repeat a few times and it might dissolve and flush out a bit of the powder.

Anyway, you don't need to drive the ball down much, just enough to move it and break it free and lighter taps with a large hammer works better than heavier blows with a lighter one. As far as pulling it, if it is still stronger than you are weld a drywall screw to your metal rod and put a slide hammer weight on the end and whack it out with that, either thread it and put a nut on the end or use a cable clamp, but a pair of vise grips will probably hold. I suspect once it is broken free it should move. Good luck!

My concern with grease through the nipple is if this is original the threads are probably cut by hand and non standard and there's a chance of damage if you screwed an adapter in the drum.

[freakonaleash]

Try one of those CO2 thingys, they seem to alwats work.

[BigAlofPa.]

I have a ball puller. It attaches to a cleaning rod. And then it screws into the ball. I had to use mine one time. I did soak the ball with oil prior to pulling.

[RU shooter]

Is taking the breach plug out not an option ?

[Butler Ford]

get a small rope, long enough that doubled, you can tie it around a tree. A larks head around the rod, working end around a tree and pull. Be prepared to land on your butt. Embarrassed to say how many times I've had to do this over the years!

[Wayne Smith]

I have a long cleaning rod made from a Track of the Wolf rod and screw end. Screwed that into the ball, put the end of the rod in my vice, and pulled on the gun. Much like Butler but I didn't land on my butt.

Track of the Wolf makes a very sharp screw ball puller. Works well.

[Plastikosmd]

There may not just be one stuck in an old gun so check

[C.F.Plinker]

Try one of those CO2 thingys, they seem to alwats work.

Yup. I had to do it at the range one afternoon. Keep the barrel level and aimed down range. I had attracted an audience but no-one saw the ball when it came out nor did they see where it landed. I used the CO2 because I couldn't get enough powder through the flash hole and behind the powder to blow it out.

[BigAlofPa.]

Is taking the breach plug out not an option ?

Yes it would be on ones that have a removable plug. My inline does. My flintlock does not.

[navyvet]

get a small rope, long enough that doubled, you can tie it around a tree. A larks head around the rod, working end around a tree and pull. Be prepared to land on your butt. Embarrassed to say how many times I've had to do this over the years!

And not a big tree more along the line of a stout sapling. Needs a little rebound action from the tree.

[GregLaROCHE]

I have a good ramrod and a ball puller screwed into the ball. I have pulled very hard with the barrel attached to something solid. I don’t want to put too much force on it and strip out the threads in the lead ball. That’s why I’m trying to loosen it first.

The breech plug has been in for well over 150 years. I don’t want to try and get it out.

If I do strip out the threads I’ve made in the ball, I may try to dissolve the powder and remove it from the nipple hole and then try tapping in further in to break it loose, before trying the puller again.

If I still can’t get it out, I guess I’ll try a light powder charge and shoot it out.

[waksupi]

Yes it would be on ones that have a removable plug. My inline does. My flintlock does not.

What kind of a flinter do you have that you can't pull the breechplug?

[GregLaROCHE]

What kind of a flinter do you have that you can't pull the breechplug?

It’s an original French musket made around two hundred years ago, that was then converted to percussion and rifled. Not sure if the plug can even be removed. I sure don’t want to try to do it.

[BigAlofPa.]

Mine is a Traditions buck skinner.
273465

[country gent]

With compressed air and the co2 you need away to catch control the ball as it will have some force. think air rifle here.... The grease gun works well and is a slower applied pressure as the grease gun adds pressure then it equalizes and levels with each pump. A high pressure grease gun can get to 2500 lbs pressure easily. It is a mess to clean up after and will be a job to get all that grease back out of the barrel. Im wondering if a grease gun dedicated too this and using vegetable oil might do the job, cheaper and easier to clean up after. The big thing is finding the right thread in a zerk. Ir making an "adapter to get the right threads.

THe problem with the ball wirms is they expand the ball when screwed in wedging them in tighter. a piloted drill the size of the shank in the worms thread to drill a pilot hole helps relieve this and makes pulling the ball easier. I made one for my 50 cal renegade. pilot is 1" long drill is 3/4" long I use this ona t handled cleaning rod to drill a hole threw the ball then put the worm on and they pull a lot easier , almost ae easy as they pushed in

[RU shooter]

They all have a removable breach plugs some are just harder than others to unscrew . Proper tools and maybe a touch of heat if needed . I would at least attemp to remove the plug if pulling the ball don't work just don't go all gorilla on it with a 3 ft cheater bar ,who know it may twist right out after a good soak in tranny fluid and and acetone .

[BigAlofPa.]

I'll soak it in some kroil. It would be handy to get it off. I tried putting the barrel in a vice with leather to protect the barrel. And a snap on wrench on the tang. No go.

[arcticap]

If the powder can be neutralized, it's possible to melt the lead ball which would let you simply pour the metal out.
A guy posted about melting a ball by placing the breech end of the barrel in a pot of molten lead.
I don't recall if he blocked the nipple hole or how.
Perhaps direct heat might even work such as if it were placed directly on top of an electric stove element.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello GregLaROCHE,

I have used a manual grease gun on a stuck piston once.
Piston was froze above the ports of an OMC snowmobile cylinder, cylinder & head are one piece.
I made a plug to replace the spark plug and inserted a grease fitting after filling chamber with grease.
After a few pumps, the cast iron sleeve which is inside the cylinder busted around the ports and the piston came out.
I ruined the cylinder, and the bottom of the sleeve was still stuck to the piston, but I got it out.
I could not believe how much power a hand operated grease gun could produce.
Of course you would need to remove the nipple and design a fitting for it.

AntiqueSledMan.

[GregLaROCHE]

I have been wondering about putting heat on it, but I am worried about powder under the ball possibly making problems. I still am working on getting the nipple loose.

[mooman76]

Once you get the nipple out, get a grease fitting the same size. You don't need to fill the barrel with grease. Once it starts to get loose it should come out fairly easy. I wouldn't apply heat either. You don't know what kind of powder was used and it could be bad result.

[Good Cheer]

Have you measured the depth down to the ball and determined the length (looking at the outside)?
Perhaps that could give you some insight as to whether it had been loaded with no powder or is now double loaded. And, which path forward to pursue.

[idahoron]

I have been wondering about putting heat on it, but I am worried about powder under the ball possibly making problems. I still am working on getting the nipple loose.


PLEASE DONT HEAT A 200 YEAR OLD GUN!!

Please listen to the guys that have said use a grease gun. I have used one to remove a ball stuck for over 30 years.
You won't need to fill the barrel full. In fact when I did it I bet all I had was a tea spoon full of grease in the barrel. It washes out with hot water. A hole in your barrel because you heated a 200 year old rifle too much is not fixable.
Please just get the nipple out and screw in a zerk. It will be the safest and easiest way to do it. I promise, the guys telling you to remove the breech plug in a 200 year old rifle have nothing to lose. The guys telling you to heat the barrel hot enough to melt lead have nothing to lose. If you use one of those methods you will lose a 200 year old rifle.
The Grease zerk is the way to go.

https://i.imgur.com/8zkVcmq.jpg

[Gtek]

Bore and barrel length?

[Battis]

I had a barrel relined by Bob Hoyt. He tried to remove the breech plug but couldn't do it. He didn't want to ruin the barrel so he stopped trying. Smart to stop...

[GregLaROCHE]

I’m starting to think the Zirk fitting will be the way to go. I still need to get the nipple out and don’t know if I will be able to do it without some heat, that could cause other problems. After I get the nipple out, I will still have to adapt a Zirk fitting to the threads. How many different sizes and threads do Zirk fittings come in?

[samari46]

Zerk fittings come in inch and metric. At least here in the U.S. however the threads on your BP firearm are most likely a common thread when the rifle was made, today not so much. Track of the Wolf does sell taps in various sizes for nipples, but you have to get the old one out first. And then figure out what that old thread was. Might want to contact some of the museums over there or maybe a renactor group to see what they have to say. Frank

[carbine]

The ZERK will work. Caution. Made in different thread sizes. What size is nipple. Also is is a lot of pressure, be advised

[cas]

Man the idea of screwing a fitting into 200+ year old lord knows what thread would terrify me, even if you knew what the thread was supposed to be.

Me, I'd fully exhaust air and Co2 before I did that... no pun intended.

[GregLaROCHE]

I’m planning on trying air pressure tomorrow, since every place where I can buy Zirks is closed until Monday. I still need to get the nipple out too, if I’m going to try Zirks.

[idahoron]

If a guy was paralyzed by the fear of the wrong thread and pitch a machine shot can tell you what yours nipple is. They could also thread a long shaft grease zerk to fit the gun.
Then there are the guys that are paralyzed by the fear of some grease in the barrel. Air is not going to push out a ball like that. It has been stuck and probably has rusted a bit. It has adhered it's self to the barrel. Sure I would try it but I would not be too worried if it does not come out. The zerk will push it out. A machine shop could make you a zerk if your scared to thread one in.

[idahoron]

This projectile was in my friends gun.

https://i.imgur.com/jaJ5w0M.jpg

I don't have a clue what it is. When I screwed a jag in it, the thing got bigger around and stuck harder. The gun was a 50 cal!!!

https://i.imgur.com/hwdUr8v.jpg

This is how it was in the barrel.

https://i.imgur.com/p5NXZPo.jpg

I put the grease zerk in and gave it two pumps. It built an amazing amount of pressure and popped. It almost came out of the barrel, it was right at the muzzle.
If you lived close to me I would have given a try at it. The biggest hurdle is the stuck nipple. But in reality that thing is done and it needs a new one. so I would get it out then do the zerk.

[GregLaROCHE]

I would like to remove the nipple so I can try the Zirk fitting method to break loose the ball. So far I can’t get the nipple to budge. I don’t want to drill it out to use an easy out.

This barrel was originally for a smooth bore flintlock. It was rifled and modified to use a percussion cap in 1860. The nipple does not screw directly into the barrel. An adapter has been installed in/on the barrel to accommodate the nipple. My question is how is this part secured in the barrel? Is it a simple press fit, screwed in, or soldered in place? At this point I am hesitant to use heat to help remove the nipple, because of the possibility of disturbing a soldered joint.

Advice please.

273613

[godzilla]

im guessing a forge weld.

[godzilla]

If the worm has a good purchase on the ball you can find something heavy that will slide over the range rod close and use it like a slide hammer. Few taps should get the ball moving.

[LabGuy]

Well, you know what they say about free advice... I would first try CO2 (not compressed air), easy fast, with no cleanup. If that fails, move on to the zerk fitting and grease gun. My normal first step is FFFF under the nipple.

[GregLaROCHE]

I just ordered a CO2 bicycle tire filler. Seems like simplest and least potential for damage. If it does work, it will be nice to have on hand, if a similar situation arises.

[Plastikosmd]

Maybe some rather hot water to sit in there and soften things up before trying

[GregLaROCHE]

I’ve been soaking it with Ballistol for five days, but it hasn’t made it past the ball to drip out the nipple yet.

[RU shooter]

Try 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone

[cas]

I don't have a clue what it is.

Looks like a round ball sabot that someone beat the snot out of and hammered flat. Which means before they beat on it, the ball was fairly undersized. I used to shoot them occasionally in one of my rifles in the early 90s.

[Kylongrifle]

put a grease zerk in the nipple hole. if its a thompson its a 1/4 x 28. Then pump it out with a grease gun. works like a charm

[cas]

Wow. (did you read any of the thread? lmao)

[Kylongrifle]

273646

[Kylongrifle]

Wow. (did you read any of the thread? lmao) yes and he asked what size, no one actually said what size zerk it takes yet.

[Kylongrifle]

also if itss a CVA its 6 x 1MM

[Boogieman]

also if itss a CVA its 6 x 1MM


OP said in first post it was made in 1777 and was converted to cap lock later. Odds are it's a hand cut nonstandard thread. A grease gun is the safest way to go.

[Kylongrifle]

OP said in first post it was made in 1777 and was converted to cap lock later. Odds are it's a hand cut nonstandard thread. A grease gun is the safest way to go.

In that case "IF" he dosnt mind altering he could drill and retap.. Otherwise those old threads werent even cut the tap and dies from that period swagged more than they cut and certainly wont be near standard and likely as you mentioned each tap/die set were individually made often times

[Boogieman]

Made in 1777 , not a CVA or Thompson Center. Safest way would be to drill out the old nipple and retap to standard size . then push the ball with a grease gun.
you will need a new nipple if you plan to shoot it

[GregLaROCHE]

If the CO2 dosent work, I’ll have to try and get the nipple out. So far it won’t budge. I am afraid to put too much heat on it. I don’t want to damage the barrel and I’m pretty sure there’s still powder inside.

The French invented the metric system and there were hundreds of thousands of these guns produced. They were some of the first to have standard exchangeable parts. If Zirks are available in all metic sizes, it’s a pretty good bet that I can find one to fit. I just need to get the nipple out and don’t want to resort to drilling etc.

[NyFirefighter357]

If your going to try a grease gun and can't get the nipple off try a needle nose grease tip held tightly into that nipple. You can get them at any auto parts store and they come in different sizes.

https://images.app.goo.gl/GQuEzdhZZhcESpfm7

https://images.app.goo.gl/kvMuLU1V2KSthjM2A

[idahoron]

If your going to try a grease gun and can't get the nipple off try a needle nose grease tip held tightly into that nipple. You can get them at any auto parts store and they come in different sizes.

https://images.app.goo.gl/GQuEzdhZZhcESpfm7

https://images.app.goo.gl/kvMuLU1V2KSthjM2A

I forgot about those. That might be the better way to do that.

[Gtek]

Been thinking about this since seen and have been asking myself what would I do if I could not get ball out in this situation. I ask bore size and length, crickets. Well, the idea- why not a piece of steel tubing between 3/8" and 1/2" and longer than bore. Cut asterisk 1/4" deep with hacksaw on end, file tooth pattern on backside of cuts similar to a hole saw pattern. Wrap tube in proper direction with duct/electrical tape to bore size every four to six inches and lubricate. Take a battery drill and remove center from projectile and should come out with tube. Compressed air through nipple and blow charge if any out muzzle. Long brass 1/4" rod or so and disrupt ring and take hooked 1/8" rod and extract ring. Told ya I been thinking about it. Oh, and keep your nose away from muzzle!

[Lead pot]

Pounding on a stuck ball trying to break it loose does nothing but expand it more into the pits that are most likely formed all these years it has been in the barrel.

I pulled a tight stuck dry ball in a flint rifle for a guy once that was tight and after him using a ball puller not holding in the soft lead.
I drilled a hole in a 3/8" brass rod and soldered a #12 cabinet screw to it. A cabinet screw has deep threads that hold better than a regular wood screw.
The second rod I did the same thing as the one with the screw but I soldered a drill bit smaller than the screw so the threads will bite in the lead without expanding the ball tighter. Roughed up the drill shank and I used silver solder.
I wrapped the drill rod and the screw rod with tape to hold center. This will make a good bite in the drill hole wall to let you pull the ball.
This is a extreme for pulling a dry ball but it's better than ruining a fine old rifle drilling out a nipple and rethreading for a new one.

[DanishM1Garand]

I've heard of using a grease gun to push stuck balls out, if you can get the nipple removed and are able to put a fitting on to use with the grease gun. Always thought it sounded like it'd be a real mess to clean up though.
My dad would use a brand new high quality grease gun to free a stuck engine. He swore it was 3500 psi. Find a grease nipple the correct thread pitch. That stuck ball has no choice but to come out.

[gumbo333]

GreglaR did you get the old ball out? If you can't get the grease gun/ zerk to work ( likely the pressure will push the zerk out first) rather than brazing a screw to a long rod, braze on a drill bit. Drill progressively larger holes in the lead ball. Wrap some electrical tape around the long rod in a few places for protection. At some point that old ball should come out in pieces. I would think old black powder sitting in a barrel for 200 years would be inert by now or a little Balistol seeping in would kill it.

[Brass&Lead]

If you have the tools and skill available, make a piece that is tapered to match the nipple on one end with a standard grease fitting on the other. Strap that to the firearm and pump in the grease.

Once the ball (and powder?) is out you can clean and soak the nipple. Heat and cold helps even if it is just a bit. Tightening and loosening the nipple will help break it free. Make sure your wrench fits it snugly. It took a long time to get stuck, take your time getting it unstuck.

[GregLaROCHE]

My CO2 tire inflation device arrived yesterday, but to my irritation, didn’t contain a CO2 cartridge. I hope to get one today and see if this method works.

I’ve been considering the drill out method too. Unfortunately, I don’t have a source for metal rods long enough near by.

For those wondering, it’s .69 cal.

[Edward]

Your lucky you don"t have metal rod ,perhaps the gun will survive/Ed

[Jeff Michel]

If you have a drill press available, place your nipple wrench in the chuck, place your barrel in a padded vise. Align and support the barrel as necessary. Lower the spindle to engage the nipple wrench onto the nipple. While exerting downward force on the spindle arm, turn the chuck with a tommy bar fitted into one of the wrench hole in the chuck. Make sure that the wrench and nipple are seated completely and the project is clamped so as it is unmovable. The downward force on the spindle will keep the wrench from camming away from the nipple and you will be able to exert an incredible amount of force. This also a great way to remove stubborn screws. Good luck with your project.

[GregLaROCHE]

Well my wife got back with CO2 cartridges, but they are the the wrong type. They don’t have threads to screw into the inflater. I guess this project is now on hold until after Christmas.

Merry Christmas to all who have been following this thread and offering advice.

[gumbo333]

If you try the drill press idea (its a good idea but a 2 man job - large channel locks work good to turn with) possibly heat the nipple with a wood burning tip. It won't get too hot to hurt the metal. This is the trick used to remove scope base screws or other screws in a gun, that someone used "red" lokstite on. 200 year old rust\ corrosion may be similar to red lokstite.

[arcticap]

If the powder can be neutralized, it's possible to melt the lead ball which would let you simply pour the metal out.
A guy posted about melting a ball by placing the breech end of the barrel in a pot of molten lead.
I don't recall if he blocked the nipple hole or how.
Perhaps direct heat might even work such as if it were placed directly on top of an electric stove element.


There's so many other good ideas.
I'm not advocating melting the ball under the circumstances,
However:
The melting point of pure lead is 621.43 F,
The auto-ignition temperature of black powder is 464 C = 867.2 F.

Does Idahoron think that 700 F heat would damage the antique barrel steel?

[idahoron]

Does Idahoron think that 700 F heat would damage the antique barrel steel?

Yes I most certainly think that the steel in a 200 year old gun should not be heated. It would change the appearance of the steel in that area. The only way to fix that would be a total restoration. That really should not happen.

[country gent]

Heres another trick I have used.
Make a rod the length you need plus with a t handle drill and tap for a long thread puller.. Put a stop collar on the rod and a soft brass or copper washer under it. When the screw is well engaged in the ball slide the washer stop collar down snug and tighten to rod. You have just made a crew jack. Turn handle the the screws mechanical advantage pulls the ball, not muscle. Work smarter not harder.

[indian joe]

GreglaR did you get the old ball out? If you can't get the grease gun/ zerk to work ( likely the pressure will push the zerk out first) rather than brazing a screw to a long rod, braze on a drill bit. Drill progressively larger holes in the lead ball. Wrap some electrical tape around the long rod in a few places for protection. At some point that old ball should come out in pieces. I would think old black powder sitting in a barrel for 200 years would be inert by now or a little Balistol seeping in would kill it.

I would think again about old powder being inert - kill it with ballistol yes but dont put a torch on that old load ifn its dry unless you got yr earmuffs on!!!

[carbine]

Cant wait to hear the outcome

[WRideout]

Another member here who happens to live nearby (not mentioning names without permission) told me that he once removed a stuck barrel from a rifle action by alternately freezing, then warming the action. After a number of iterations, the barrel unscrewed rather easily.

Wayne

[GregLaROCHE]

This project has been on hold because of the holidays. I bought a CO2 bicycle tube filler, but now can’t find the cartridges with threads to make it work. I have ordered some, but they won’t be here for another week. I may give a little try with compressed air. Maybe a combination of air pressure and the ball screw might work. The barrel has been vertical with Ballistol in it for several weeks now, but no sign of it getting past the ball/load and coming out of the nipple. I’ll keep posting on progress. Happy New Year to everyone! Greg

[GregLaROCHE]

Well compressed air didn’t work. I pressurized it to over 100 psi and pulled on it with the ball worm. Nothing budged. Will the CO2 inflater have much more pressure? I kind of doubt it. My next step may be to take it to a gunsmith.

The nipple has a 7mm square to unscrew it. Does anyone know where a four or even eight point socket can be bought? I haven’t been able to find one. I would even consider a set if the 7mm was included. Too bad it’s not 6mm. Then I might able to use a 1/4” drive socket upside down. Maybe I should consider modifying a 1/4” socket with a file to fit. I could then put a bolt in the end of the socket with some vise grips on it.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello GregLaRoche,

Did you look at "Track of the Wolf".
They might have a wrench for your nipple.

AntiqueSledMan.

[GregLaROCHE]

I checked TOW, but they don’t seem to have the size I need.

[kenton]

You might try a chuck style tap wrench, it would at least grab to full corners and have as tight fit as you want.

[arcticap]

Yes I most certainly think that the steel in a 200 year old gun should not be heated. It would change the appearance of the steel in that area. The only way to fix that would be a total restoration. That really should not happen.

Ron, with all due respect I wonder how you know this?
You may be right or wrong, I wouldn't know since I take your word at face value.

I would tend to understand how direct flame would affect the color of the iron or steel since the flame temperature can't be controlled as easily as with molten lead.
But not sure how or how much the heat from molten lead would alter the color.
And if it did alter the color wouldn't it be only a little bit on the surface?
Perhaps easily dealt with?
I will admit that using molten lead could be taking a risk.
I wouldn't know where to research the answer to the question of how much risk of damage can molten lead cause to an antique barrel, or antique barrel exterior finish.

Here's the photo of the barrel: --->>> http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=273613&d=1608459635

[idahoron]

Ron, with all due respect I wonder how you know this?
You may be right or wrong, I wouldn't know since I take your word at face value.

I would tend to understand how direct flame would affect the color of the iron or steel since the flame temperature can't be controlled as easily as with molten lead.
But not sure how or how much the heat from molten lead would alter the color.
And if it did alter the color wouldn't it be only a little bit on the surface?
Perhaps easily dealt with?
I will admit that using molten lead could be taking a risk.
I wouldn't know where to research the answer to the question of how much risk of damage can molten lead cause to an antique barrel, or antique barrel exterior finish.

Here's the photo of the barrel: --->>> http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=273613&d=1608459635

I used to be a millrite In my previous job. I had to heat up bearings, shafts, and other metal parts. While I never took a direct temperature of the part being heated I did see the parts at times change color. The color changes during the heating with a torch by the torch.
The hot lead probably would not affect the outside color of the barrel.
On a 200 year old gun I just wouldn't do it. Dealing with melted lead in the barrel sticking to the colder places in the barrel would also not be fun.

[idahoron]

I have also built knives as a hobby. When grinding a blade it the metal turns color you have changed the hardness in that area of the blade. I would think it would be the same for a barrel. If the color of the metal in a small spot changes it may have altered the integrity of the barrel.

[cas]

Heating a gun that might be loaded... er...
Just because the gun is 200 years old, doesn't mean the powder is.

[SSGOldfart]

Good point on the powder. Humm wish I could help

[Drm50]

I was getting so many ball removals that I made tools. 3/8th brass rod. Center drilled for 1/8” drill bit held with set screw. Have stainless wood screw turned to fit in the same rod. NEVER use drywall screws to pull bullets. They are brittle and can break off in ball. Then you got more problem. I have socket brazed on other end of rod. I hand turn rod to drill 1/8” hole clear through ball. Then put the screw to it, using T handle in socket. Then pull out, if stuck I have a weight to slide over rod as slap hammer. In OPs case and after all his attempts I would drill ball by hand 1/2” and grind a chisel out of a paddle bit and split what is left. You should then be able to pour the pieces out.

[GregLaROCHE]

I was getting so many ball removals that I made tools. 3/8th brass rod. Center drilled for 1/8” drill bit held with set screw. Have stainless wood screw turned to fit in the same rod. NEVER use drywall screws to pull bullets. They are brittle and can break off in ball. Then you got more problem. I have socket brazed on other end of rod. I hand turn rod to drill 1/8” hole clear through ball. Then put the screw to it, using T handle in socket. Then pull out, if stuck I have a weight to slide over rod as slap hammer. In OPs case and after all his attempts I would drill ball by hand 1/2” and grind a chisel out of a paddle bit and split what is left. You should then be able to pour the pieces out.

This is a good idea and one that I would opt for. I now need to decide if it is practical for me to fabricate the tools or just take it to a smith who specializes in these old guns. Part of my decision will be based on the fact that my shop is all packed up in boxes, because of having a concrete pad poured. (I posted about it in Special projects Reloading Room Floor) Unfortunately, that project has not gone well and I don’t know when my shop will be back in operation. Will my wife let me temporary set up my mini lathe, drill press, bench grinder etc in the kitchen? Do I even want to?

[Drm50]

I forgot to add that I have brass bushings for 45-50-54 that center my 3/8ths rod in bore. I’m a believer in turning this rod by hand. Drilling lead is easy and hooking to drill just increases chances of something going wrong.

[arcticap]

DRM50.
Do you neutralize the powder before drilling or do you feel that your set up doesn't require it at first?
One of the TC manuals was very clear about neutralizing the powder before using a ball puller screw.
Of course a gun company is going to recommend being extra cautious.

Can drilling be done before neutralizing the powder, so that liquid can be poured in through the hole in the ball?
Then once neutralized the powder is safe for using the paddles?

The nipple hole is so small and a blockage in the flash channel may prevent the powder from getting thoroughly soaked and neutralized from the breech end.

[GregLaROCHE]

The problem is how to neutralize the powder. I have confirmed there is BP, by pushing a tiny drill through the nipple and removing some. I now wish I had thought to try and ignite it. If I could get the nipple out it would be easy to add something to neutralize the powder, if not even remove it. The hole in the nipple is so small that it won’t let air vent out to get any liquid in. I have considered putting the end of the barrel in boiling water though.

[NyFirefighter357]

OK, back to the grease. Do you not want to try the needle adapter? They come in many tip sizes. What about adapting a brass or aluminum block or pipe nipple to the outside of the tapered cap nipple? You can adapt any grease fitting the block or you can get an 1/8" NPT brass nipple and coupling & an 1/8" NPT grease fitting, screw them together and taper the inside of the exposed brass nipple to fit the outside of you nipple cap. Have you tried to just put the grease gun on the nipple cap? The block could be drilled at the approx angle of the nipple cap so that the block is parallel to the barrel, tapper the hole and drill & tap a corresponding hole in the top to fit a grease fitting. You could then use shims & a clamp to hold the block tightly over the nipple cap pump the grease in. I have the Co2 tool that the tire inflator & co2 muzzleloader discharger are based off of & they build up 300+ psi. https://images.app.goo.gl/AokiA4EhhcQL1FXi9 It uses 8gr C02, why didn't it work, couldn't get a good seal? Jason

[GregLaROCHE]

I’ve haven’t tried the CO2 yet because I haven’t been able to get the screw in type cartridges for the inflater. I have some ordered. If you say they can build up to 300 psi, that could make a difference. I managed to get a good seal with my compressor, but it wasn’t giving me much more than 100 psi. 300 psi may make a big difference.
It’s a good idea to try the plain grease gun on the nipple. It’s not that much different from a Zirk fitting. Making an adapter that can be clamped in place to keep a seal with higher pressures is a good idea too. It’s just as I said in my earlier post, my shop is all packed up for the moment.
Greg

[country gent]

if you cant get the nipple out pick up some clear rubber tubing 3-4 feet long push on nipple a wood dowel in the bore ta rube to barrel and wood rod. a small vet syringe can be used at the top as a funnel reservoir also. fill with penetrant and let sit standing up right. The higher you can get the tube the better. fill full and let sit for a few days. This will give some mild pressure and work in to where it needs. Fluids tend to seek an equal level so the raised tube tries to fill the barrel thru capillary action. Thinner fluids work better here also.

[merlin101]

I haven't read all the posts so I don't know if this has been suggested, but has anyone suggested using mercury? just stand the bbl up in a pan in a corner and pour a small amount of mercury down the muzzle and then wait a day or so and it will dissolve the lead and then you just pour it out.

[cas]

I thought of that early on, but didn't think it was something you could get anymore.

[idahoron]

I had some mercury switches from a old boiler. I don't have them any more, but I didn't know that Mercury would do that.

[cas]

In the old days before people realized how very bad it was for them, folks used it to de-lead barrels. How well it worked, I have no idea.

[GregLaROCHE]

I haven't read all the posts so I don't know if this has been suggested, but has anyone suggested using mercury? just stand the bbl up in a pan in a corner and pour a small amount of mercury down the muzzle and then wait a day or so and it will dissolve the lead and then you just pour it out.

This is an original idea. I never would have thought of it. The question is if mercury is easily available. Where to find it and how much does it cost?

[country gent]

Mercury is hazardous fumes and the material itself, I dont think its even used in thermometers anymore. The other question I have is once you get the lead mercury mix out, How do you dispose of it safely? Doing this in the basement would more than likely have fumes thru house and clothes. If furnace is in basement then even mire so.

[indian joe]

I forgot to add that I have brass bushings for 45-50-54 that center my 3/8ths rod in bore. I’m a believer in turning this rod by hand. Drilling lead is easy and hooking to drill just increases chances of something going wrong.

all good info here ..................................

[LIMPINGJ]

Guess all of us that as kids and played with Mercury from thermometers and with it in science class don’t have much time left.

[GregLaROCHE]

I just ordered 50 grams of mercury. Will that be enough? Has anyone used it for de leading before? Should I wash out all the oil residue from the Ballistol? How long should it take? Overnight?

[idahoron]

How the heck did you get that? I hope it works!!

[GregLaROCHE]

How the heck did you get that? I hope it works!!

Got it off of EBay. <link removed>

[Caswell Ranch]

Got it off of EBay. https://www.ebay.fr/itm/MERCURY-MERKUR-MERCURIO-kwik-higany-zhivak-ziva-mercuriy-rt-METAL-LIQUID-Hg-/124495157348

The following is on that link Impossible d'envoyer cet objet vers : États-Unis can not deliver to the U.S.A. unless my French is bad, also this is on their page, Lieux exclus : Guadeloupe, Martinique, Canada, États-Unis, Guyane, Réunion, Allemagne

[GregLaROCHE]

I’m currently located in France and the mercury is supposedly on its way to me. It could take up to two weeks before it is delivered. Now how to use it. I guess I’ll pour it down the barrel and wait. Outside for sure and maybe put a cork in the muzzle.

Mercury was used over a hundred years ago during the gold rush days, by miners to extract fine gold flakes from black sands. After it was absorbed by the mercury, it was heated to a temperature that would burn off the mercury leaving the pure gold. This procedure sickened and killed a lot of people who didn’t know better back then.

[GregLaROCHE]

I found this on YouTube about mixing mercury and lead. Will I need to heat the barrel to make the reaction happen?
https://youtu.be/2JW8YGTdTjA
https://youtu.be/be2igAMFMPY

[john.k]

Mercury dissolves lead,no heat is needed......however, heating mercury is extremely dangerous,mercury vapor is about as toxic as it gets......I d be very surprised if you could buy mercury in the EU.......In the old days ,mercuric chloride called "corrosive sublimate" was widely used in gun blue formulas,and the men who applied the blue were called spongers,and suffered serious mental damage from the chemicals at a young age.

[indian joe]

Mercury dissolves lead,no heat is needed......however, heating mercury is extremely dangerous,mercury vapor is about as toxic as it gets......I d be very surprised if you could buy mercury in the EU.......In the old days ,mercuric chloride called "corrosive sublimate" was widely used in gun blue formulas,and the men who applied the blue were called spongers,and suffered serious mental damage from the chemicals at a young age.

John do you know if corrosive sublimate was ever a component of browning solutions ?????
Many years ago a mate and I got a recipe from an old book for a browning solution and it had four components rather than the normal three - took it to the oldest chemist we could find in Cooma - he decoded the old names and ordered the stuff for us - it put the nicest brown finish I ever saw on a gun but the remnants got lost in a move back to the riverina, my mate died, we never could find that old book anyway, thought it came from "colonial australian gunsmiths" but I got a copy of that in later years and was not what I was searching for. Always wanted to recreate that magic mix - if its merc chloride I will pass but would be nice to know.!?

[john.k]

If you find any pre WW2 gunsmithing book,there will be dozens of formulae for blueing/browning solutions.....every one will call for more or less "corrosive sublimate"...........The catch with mercury and mercuric compounds is if the authorities find out.......you can expect a massive EPA reaction at the least.

[john.k]

The thing about the EU ,is mail/package items can come uninspected from places such as Bulgaria and Romania......so I would imagine just about anything that didnt set off the ion sniffers or look gunshaped in an x ray auto scan could come thru the mail.

[indian joe]

If you find any pre WW2 gunsmithing book,there will be dozens of formulae for blueing/browning solutions.....every one will call for more or less "corrosive sublimate"...........The catch with mercury and mercuric compounds is if the authorities find out.......you can expect a massive EPA reaction at the least.

thanks ........I'll pass for now .

[waksupi]

John do you know if corrosive sublimate was ever a component of browning solutions ?????
Many years ago a mate and I got a recipe from an old book for a browning solution and it had four components rather than the normal three - took it to the oldest chemist we could find in Cooma - he decoded the old names and ordered the stuff for us - it put the nicest brown finish I ever saw on a gun but the remnants got lost in a move back to the riverina, my mate died, we never could find that old book anyway, thought it came from "colonial australian gunsmiths" but I got a copy of that in later years and was not what I was searching for. Always wanted to recreate that magic mix - if its merc chloride I will pass but would be nice to know.!?

All formulas for browning or blueing must contain a corrosive.

[indian joe]

All formulas for browning or blueing must contain a corrosive.

yeah got that!
and I have done a few with stuff that is available presently
That old brew made a nicer finish somehow - have tried to duplicate it since

[GregLaROCHE]

Mercury is on its way.I spoke to the seller of the mercury today. He wouldn’t sell it to me until I told him what I wanted it for. He said it would work, however, it could take a few days or up to a week. I just needed to be patient.

The question I didn’t think to ask, is how all the Ballistol I’ve been soaking the barrel with, will effect the chemical reaction. Should I rinse out the barrel with a strong detergent first. I hesitate because then I will not have an oil film to protect the inside of the barrel from corrosion, especially if I need to let it sit for a week. Maybe degrease and then run a lightly oiled patch down it.

[GregLaROCHE]

Does anyone know if the weight of mercury will dissolve the same weight of lead? That’s pretty close to what I have. A 69 cal round ball weighs close to the 50 grams I ordered.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Greg,

I have a question, what are you going to do with the Mercury after ball removal?

AntiqueSledMan.

[GregLaROCHE]

In reality, I will probably put it in a jar and place it on a shelf and forget about it. Mercury isn’t really that dangerous to have around, if that’s what you’re thinking about. However Im not going to pour it down a drain or just throw it in the trash. And for sure, I’m not going to try and retort the amalgam to separate the two metals.

It’s when you heat mercury and it forms a gas that it becomes dangerous. Don’t forget that for 150 years dental fillings were 50% mercury. It is in fact still used today for fillings on occasion, because it holds up better than the composite used today. According to Google, if mercury is ingested, it doesn’t go into the blood stream and is simply excreted in feces. When it is heated, turned into its gaseous form and breathed in, that it enters the blood stream by way of the lungs. That’s when it is really dangerous. Otherwise, it’s probably less dangerous than lead.

[GregLaROCHE]

I got the mercury today and it’s already in the barrel. We will see what happens.

[idahoron]

It will be interesting to see how it does.

[ogre]

Ummmmm.....any results?

[john.k]

By the way,I dinnt say mercury is necessarily dangerous to have,every school lab had a bottle........but if the authorities find out ,different story......So dont tell anyone.

[Woodnbow]

By the way,I dinnt say mercury is necessarily dangerous to have,every school lab had a bottle........but if the authorities find out ,different story......So dont tell anyone.
Let’s just keep it between us kids here...



Greg, anything happened yet?

[Gtek]

Yea, and when your a kid don't play with it in the back yard. You drop it on the sand and it disappears like something out of a Terminator movie.

[Texas by God]

Yep, it was cool to split it up on the desk top and watch it regroup while the teacher rambled on about whatever.......my "rock collection" had a big chunk of asbestos in it; and we used toxic poke salad berries to paint our faces when we were the "Indians".

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[hawkenhunter50]

What was the outcome of using the Mercury?

[Lead pot]

The lead probably got amalgamated with the iron barrel :?

[Agarbers]

In case you ever need mercury again, almost all pre-2000 thermostats use mercury as the contact to close the circuit. The older Honeywell T-87 was one that had it. It is in a small glass bubble. I took many of them out to dispose of them. Many HVAC supply houses used to take the mercury thermostats back to recycle as a service to their clients. You could check with them to see if they would take the mercury. Lowes also has a recycling program and they may take it. Some communities have a tox-away day a few times a year and they would most likely take it.

Old placer gold miners used mercury to collect flour gold from their pans, then make a hollow in a potato to hold the mercury. They baked the potato which caused the potato to absorb the mercury and leave the gold clean. They then "wrung" the mercury back out of the potato using cheesecloth. And now you know why some old miners are crazy.

[T-Bird]

did the mercury work?

[Hossfly]

I got the mercury today and it’s already in the barrel. We will see what happens.

Did the mercury work? Did it dissolve the lead ball?

[GregLaROCHE]

Well it’s been almost three weeks and I don’t think the mercury did much. I am really surprised. I wonder if the residue from the Ballistol I was soaking it with, could have kept the mercury from getting a good contact with the lead. I set the barrel muzzle down overnight so the Ballistol would run out. I didn’t wash it with any detergent though, because I didn’t want to take a chance of rust forming. I figured the mercury would eventually displace the Ballistol film. If it didn’t, that’s sure a good plus for Ballistol.

I finally got a cartridge for the CO2 bicycle tire inflator and tried it today. It certainly had a lot more pressure than my air compressor, but nothing budged. I think I have more or less drilled a hole in the ball, by screwing into it and striping it out repeatedly. I can’t get a hold it anymore. I may try to fit a larger screw onto the range rod to get a new bite on the ball or try drilling it out. Maybe it’s time to take it to a gunsmith. He can get the frozen nipple out at the same time.

[megasupermagnum]

I know it was dismissed early in the thread, but I think at some point it may be time to stop poking at the problem, and unscrew the breech plug. I would think any good gunsmith could do that. I used to be scared of it myself, but after trying a couple, it's just a threaded plug in a tube. It isn't the end of the world. If I were in your position, I would be doing that way before trying to drill out or chisel out the ball, or even before having tried the mercury.

[GregLaROCHE]

If it were a modern gun I would have considered unscrewing the breech plug. However since it’s over 150 years since it was screwed in place and the steel is a lot softer than today, I didn’t want to take any chances. If it was to strip out, the gun would be ruined. Plus I can’t heat it to help unscrew it, because of the BP charge still in it. If I take it to a gunsmith and he wants to do it fine, but it will be his responsibility.

[Tom Trevor]

Any further action on the stuck ball or whatever might be in the barrel? We would all like to know how it turns out.

[GregLaROCHE]

Well the mercury didn’t work. I finally poured it out and recuperated almost as much as I had put in. I soaked it for a while with real penetrating oil (not Ballistol as before) and tried pull it out with the ball puller. No luck, but I did eventually drill a hole through ball to the BP by screwing into it and stripping the lead threads created out.

I then drilled and tapped a piece of all thread, the only stock long enough available and turned down and threaded an old 7/16” drill bit to attach to it. I wrapped the all thread in duck tape, to not damage the barrel. I got the BP out and now have the nipple clear, but still have a lead doughnut stuck in the barrel.

I have plugged the nipple and have penetrating oil soaking it until my next move, when I plan to take a length of around 7/16th rebar I have and grind a chisel end on it, wrap it with duct tape and try to cut the doughnut into pieces to remove it.

As you can see I haven’t been in a big hurry, working on it from time to time. I will post again after the next step is done and hope it’s the last.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Greg,

Now you have a hole through it, maybe you can make a puller for it.
In industry we used to use a lot of "Dorner Brand" conveyors,
they had a little puller for pulling bearings out. They had an expanding
mandrel with a step to hook the back side of the bearing, then we'd slide hammer them out.

AntiqueSledMan.

[GregLaROCHE]

Actually, I got motivated today after posting the update and ground the end of a piece of rebar to a chisel as I had mentioned I would do. It didn’t work. The distance is too far and I wasn’t able to get the chisel enough on the remaining ring of lead. I may need to modify a paddle bit into a chisel so it is the exact width of the barrel and cut both sides at the same time. That means more machine work and my shop is still in boxes.

I did get it cleaned out under the ring. There was still some oil soaked powder and pieces of the patch. I haven’t tried to knock the ring further down yet and maybe I shouldn’t. Now that I have a hole through the ball and the nipple is all cleaned out, what if I load some powder and try firing it. I can use the drop tube I use for charging .45/70 BP cartridges. It will go through the hole I made and put the powder directly into the chamber. There shouldn’t be any worry about over pressure because of the big hole in the ball. If the ball isn’t getting pushed out ahead of the burning powder, will the heat start to melt the lead? It may take a few times, maybe something will give. What do others think?

[cornbelt]

It has not been mentioned, but diet coke has phosphoric acid in it that eats corruption, but will not harm the steel. I have used it to loosen breech plugs. Have a Tower musket which had been loaded since who knows how long. When the breech plug did come out, there were pits deep enough to hide BBs. Some I let set for a couple months to get it to do it's job.

[Scrounge]

It has not been mentioned, but diet coke has phosphoric acid in it that eats corruption, but will not harm the steel. I have used it to loosen breech plugs. Have a Tower musket which had been loaded since who knows how long. When the breech plug did come out, there were pits deep enough to hide BBs. Some I let set for a couple months to get it to do it's job.

Phosphoric acid is still acid, and it will etch the metal a bit. I'd say find a pint of EvapoRust and use that. It will eat the rust and browning/bluing, so you'd need to be careful getting it in. You may be able to find it in Europe now: https://evapo-rust.com/buy/international/

It is non-toxic, and will not eat good metal. One of the things you can do with EvapoRust is let it dry on the object you're de-rusting, and it will protect the surface from further rust. It is water soluble, and it won't do anything about paint or oil, so you'd need to use a solvent or detergent to remove the Ballistol, or penetrating oil residues. EvapoRust is good stuff, though not cheap. I've used quite a bit of it on restoration of machine tools, old hand tools, and such. It will not replace rusted metal, so if you have deep pits of rust, it will clean them out, but it won't make pits on it's own, like any acid can if strong enough, or left on long enough.

Bill

[725]

In as much as there seems to be a hole through the lead, could a "L" shaped hook be used to catch the edge of the lead to drag it or part of it towards the muzzle?

[RU shooter]

what's the possibility of making a hard alloy bronze or brass bit of bore dia. Heck even a hard aluminum alloy would work ,And just drilling or chewing away what's left of the lead ball ? Even a mild steel rod with a cutter shape at the end would cause very little if any damage if used slowly in a brace

[Eddie2002]

Here's a thought, could you plug the hole in the stuck ball with a piece of all thread by screwing it in the hole in the ball then push a small powder charge into the touch hole and shoot the ball and all thread out. It's kind of risky but might work.
Or use a piece of all thread screwed into the hole in the ball and set up a slide hammer on the all thread that's sticking out of the barrel. Sort of the same idea as shooting it out but probably safer.
Sounds like you are making progress slowly but you are getting it out a piece at a time.

[GregLaROCHE]

In as much as there seems to be a hole through the lead, could a "L" shaped hook be used to catch the edge of the lead to drag it or part of it towards the muzzle?

That is one of the things I’m considering. It will still require a bit of fabrication. That’s why I’m thinking why try to blow or melt it out with BP.

[GregLaROCHE]

I haven’t posted about my progress in a while, because there hasn’t been any and I’ve not been motivated since a got an endoscope and got a real look at what was going on. The area around the ball was/is completely rusted solid. I have been able to drill through the rust and lead ball into the chamber, but there is no way that ball is coming loose easily.

I tried some HCl acid and it didn’t do a thing. I think it may be because the rust has become so saturated with penetrating oil and Ballistol, that the acid can’t really react with it. I don’t want to leave a strong acid like that in it too long.

After thinking about it for a while now, I think I will have to drill it out or maybe try electrolysis, that I’ve often heard and wondered about. I don’t think I’ll need to submerge the whole barrel, it’s in pretty good condition, but could simply submerge the end with the chamber. Does anyone else think it’s a good idea and could work?

[725]

Well, if the "L" shaped probe doesn't work, maybe just a long chisel type rod to whack away at it until it's largely gone. Sounds like the perimeter is fused to the barrel, so as long as the powder is desensitized, I'd just chip away at it. Good luck.

[flyingmonkey35]

In a good sot withe muzzel down range slowley heat the barrel with a torch.

Wit will melt the lead.

Once the barrel is cool again chore boy and elbow juice.

Shpuld be clean in no time


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[GregLaROCHE]

I’ve tried to chisel it away, but the sides are on an angle, so I think the chisel slips off. If I make a chisel exactly the same width as the barrel I might make some progress, but it is really hard stuff.

I’ve thought about meeting the lead out, but I will still have the significant piece of rust, that I am pretty sure will take more than Chore Boy to get loose.

[flyingmonkey35]

The choreboy is to getbthe melted lead out.

The its on with rust removers. And smoothing out burrs.

So far i have only had to melt out lead in one barrel.

You could also just buy a new barrel? If its beyond redemption.

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[john.k]

When I was a kid,the schoolteacher was a muzzleloading and old gun nut,and people would bring him all sorts of old guns.......he was also a church pastor,and Sunday afternoon ,all the kids would gather at his place ,and he would build a fire ,and put the loaded barrels in one at a time......and boom ,barrel one way ,shot the other ,masses of fire and smoke as all the coals and burning wood were scattered.....very spectacular for an 8 yr old.....Set me off on muzzleloading , 70 years later ,still going.......I realize now he was a bit eccentric ,to say the least,and not exactly a saint or role model either,but we wont go into that.

[Edward]

You might talk to an expert Bob Hoyt !/Ed

[owejia]

If rust is holding the lead ball in place maybe something like Evapo-Rust would soften it up enough to brush or wash the rust out of the barrel. If the rust is saturated with oil maybe acetone or brake cleaner could be used to remove the oil. May take several applications of cleaner to remove the oil from the rust. Evapo-Rust is user friendly and not toxic.

[rfd]

If it was my gun, and that would be a real long shot (pun not intended), I'd pull the bbl, pull the breech plug, and whack that damned ball out the bbl's butt. Then I'd get Bobby Hoyt to put it back to what it needs to be - a flintlock musket, as God and the French intended it to be.

[GregLaROCHE]

If it was my gun, and that would be a real long shot (pun not intended), I'd pull the bbl, pull the breech plug, and whack that damned ball out the bbl's butt. Then I'd get Bobby Hoyt to put it back to what it needs to be - a flintlock musket, as God and the French intended it to be.

I’m afraid that with what could be a hundred and fifty years of rust, I would twist the tang off before the breach plug gave way. Maybe if I already had experience unscrewing a breach plug on such an old gun, I would be more apt to try it. I can’t even get the nipple loose. Granted, I haven’t started using heat.

I already have one of the original flintlock versions of the gun and it’s one of my favorites. Part of the reason I bought this one.

[Battis]

I had a barrel relined by Bob Hoyt and he could not remove the breech plug without destroying it. He relined it with the plug in place. I also had a cleaning rod stuck in a barrel of a rolling block (don't ask) and I brought it to a local machinist who got it out for $20 in about five minutes.

[Buzzard II]

get a small rope, long enough that doubled, you can tie it around a tree. A larks head around the rod, working end around a tree and pull. Be prepared to land on your butt. Embarrassed to say how many times I've had to do this over the years!

I used para cord onto a stuck range rod and the bumper of my F250. I came out with a good pull.

[maillemaker]

So, for anyone following along, always try compressed gas before trying a ball puller. Once you drill a hole through the bullet you are out of luck using pressure (grease or gas) to get it out.

I would never try using heat to melt a bullet out. Not only do you risk damaging the barrel, but even centuries-old powder will explode.

Most of the CO2 dischargers will accept two different kinds and sizes of CO2 cartridges. The smaller sizes have threads and will thread into the unit. The larger ones have no threads but when you screw the outer cover on/over the cartridge it will push the cartridge head onto a spike that perforates the end and lets the CO2 out.

In the N-SSA we use CO2 fire extinguishers with a special hose with a grease fitting on the end. You put that offer the nipple and let it fly while pointed in a safe direction. Bullet will easily be moving hundreds of feet per second.

[seetrout]

I am going to vote for heat. make sure both ends of the barrel have a safe direction to fly should that old powder decide to go. I shouldn't have to say it, but don't be in front of either end at any time. A smallish camp fire with the barrel in it with the breech higher than the muzzle so the lead can run out. Even if the powder does go, you've said you already have a hole through the ball, so it likely won't amount to much of anything.
Once the lead is melted out, the copper chore boy ( and LOTS of elbow grease) should get the rest of the lead out.
Rust. The old school solution is naval jelly. It'll eat the rust off the steel parts in an old ice cream freezer in no time.

[Wilderness]

Greg - An interesting thread, and very impressed with your cautious approach.

I am not a muzzle loader, so these are no better than passing thoughts from left field:

I wonder what some internal pressure, and maybe some flexing of the steel/iron, as in a charge of black powder going off, might do to the bond between rust, ball and barrel.

At the same time, trying to budge a cemented in ball by plugging it, say with a screw (to plug the hole you have drilled through it), and shooting it out would seem to be inviting a pressure spike.

The alternative might be to fire a charge that was not pushing that ball at all, but rather just shaking up the lead/rust/iron bond around it.

This would start with a charge poured in through the hole in the old ball and fired with no projectile other than what is in there already. This might clean up the sundry oil etc. It might even move the ball slightly. Next shot would be a small charge of black with suitable non-compressible filler, enough to take the combined charge and filler above the lead collar, then a ball on top. This would have the advantage of shaking things up a bit without having to push the old ball through the cemented rust.

You might even be able to use the rifle that way for enough shots to loosen things up a bit.

Alternately, you could freeze the barrel so it contracts and squeezes the lead (not sure about the relative coefficients of expansion for lead and iron), followed by boiling water on the outside to bounce the barrel away from the ball. Breaking the bond is the objective.

Freezing the chamber with water in it, if it doesn't split the barrel (you would need to be monitoring diameter), might also break the bond between lead, rust and iron. Again, dipping in boiling water immediately afterwards might do interesting things. On second thoughts, note that frozen water used to burst the old galvanised water pipes, so maybe leave this one alone.

Just some wild thoughts.

PS Re lead pot heating and color changes - I get some really nice colors on screw heads etc by dipping them in the lead pot amid melted candle wax (to avoid lead sticking to the screw). SO ... melting out the ball would almost certainly alter the colors around the chamber.

[idahoron]

Thos video can't help now but I recommend you try this on pagev1 or something like that.

https://youtu.be/jCqp9odZISg

[FLINTNFIRE]

Has to have the right thread for the grease zert , nipples on new guns have a wide range and so do the old ones with some made to who ever cut the threads

[idahoron]

Grease zerks can be found that don't have threads at all. Those can be threaded with any size thread. Had the OP used a pinch of heat like I did the nipple would have came out. Then a zerk of the right size can be found or made with little issue. Taking a ball out with a hole in it is a big issue. The rifle that the OP has is likely to be never fixed.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Well as the OP has pointed out the firearm has rust which is keeping the remaining part of the old lead ball stuck , speculation on what would have worked as none of us have the barrel or skin in the game , breech removal was never tried as he was worried about damaging it .

It is still an option , the question always is at what amount of force , wall hanger or will he try his idea of loading and seeing if shooting will remove what remains .

So to the original poster keep us updated on further developments .

[El Greco]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jCqp9odZISg&t=1482s

[skeet1]

I would use compressed air through the nipple or remove the nipple. Make sure you point the rifle in a safe direction.

[LAGS]

I have used Mercury to disolve lead build up before on heavily leaded barrels.
I don't know if pouring mercury down the barrel will dissolve the lead balls completely , but it is worth a shot.
I used Mercury from an old thermostat mercury switch.
Those are hard to find, but I got a couple old ones from a friend that owns a A/C business .

[mooman76]

Someone from France tried dissolving a stuck ball with mercury for over a week and it did basically nothing to help.

[idahoron]

I would use compressed air through the nipple or remove the nipple. Make sure you point the rifle in a safe direction.

Compressed air would not have done anything. I know that for a fact.