Cross-eyed and Confused

[LouisianaPatriot]

Guys this little Cajun boy is confused as all get out!! While I've been casting and reloading for pistols, casting for rifles is pretty new to me.
Here's what I'm working with, AR-10 1-10" twist in .308, a Lee 309-170-F boolit mold (mine are dropping at 172gr with GC using wheel weights) and a handful of different powders.
Here's where I'm confused...there's a difference in loading target rounds vs hunting rounds. When looking at load data how do I know which load is stout enough to drop a white tail deer?
I've been water quenching my boolits and now read that I shouldn't be for hunting purposes. Is that true?
My maximum shot is 200 yards. Can hunting with CB's achieve this in a .308? I'm going cross-eyed looking at the load data. I don't want to go hunting with an ineffective load, that would be cruel.
Also, Lyman's casting and load data...can I use that data for my Lee mold in a similar weight?

[Tatume]

Personally, I like hunting bullets to be fairly soft. I recommend equal parts of crimp-on wheel weight metal and pure lead, with a few percent tin added to facilitate fill out. You don't have to worry about leading in hunting ammo, as you're only going to fire one shot. You can clean before the next time you go hunting.

Any load that produces velocity equivalent to the 30-30 Winchester is adequate with soft bullets. Start there and work up, using accuracy as the deciding factor on where to stop. You can use hard bullets for the work up phase, and then load a few with soft bullets for hunting.

[charlie b]

Here is a general description of loads that will work with your .308

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13425-Cast-Bullet-Loads-for-Military-Rifles-Article&p=151130&viewfull=1#post151130

[Kylongrifle32]

As Tatume stated many a head of game has fallen to the old 30-30. Your Boolit cast with a softer alloy running at 30-30 velocities or higher placed properly in the boiler of a whitetail should be meat in the freezer.

I would work up loads to achieve the most velocity you can but stop if accuracy starts to go south. The best expanding jacketed bullet will even fail if not placed properly in the vitals.

Even larger caliber cast boolits like my 255 grain 379s and 265 grain 44s will not produce a lot of blood trail if the shot hits high in the chest cavity but most deer are found within 50 yards of where shot.

Good luck!

[popper]

You can use hard bullets for the work up phase, and then load a few with soft bullets for hunting. Nope. You want saucer sized accuracy @ 200. My 308 AR10 carbine does MOA @ 200 with 168 gr PCd (similar to Lee) and a hard alloy (2400 fps). And knocks over the steel target. ~4%Sb heat treated. But a 6" drop for 100 yr zeroed scope! Softer alloy needs less fps, slower powder. Try for a 2k fps load, softening the alloy but keeping desired accuracy. And hope for a closer shot!

[Tatume]

Yep. You can use hard bullets for the work up phase, and then load a few with soft bullets for hunting. Check a few soft bullets for accuracy as well. They should be plenty accurate. You're not looking for bench-rest competition accuracy. You only need about three inch groups at 100 yards.

[RU shooter]

For the best of both worlds water wench your bullets stand them up and take a propane torch and run it over the top half of the nose section to "unquench" that part, just don't apply enough heat to remelt it trial and error type of thing .The nose section on that bullet is a bore rider and don't need to be super hard you'll still have your base section that is hard to deal with the rifling .

[Thumbcocker]

YouTube videos by coats brothers show excellent results in .308 at near jacketed velocity. One of them is a member here.

[popper]

@Patriot - the ONLY reason for soft alloy for hunting is expansion. The ONLY reason for expansion is a bigger bullet hits more 'stuff'. Flat nosed (or hollow point - but not in AR10) are better at expansion than pointy. Soft alloy is not particularly good for breaking bones so high shoulder shot to drop right there is iffy. Your bullet has a BC of ~.25 so will drop very fast at slow fps and long range. Use any ballistic calculator to see the drop at distance and decide how fast you need to go. 30/30 is a good 100 yd deer gun when pushed 2k fps. But it is NOT an autoloader! You can download to 30/30 levels (1800 fps) but it may not cycle. Nose softening with torch does not work - yes I tried it. I hunt hogs, not deer. Shot a 150#er in the rump, 40sw@20yds - 165gr TC ~950 fps, 3% Sb WD (hard). Broke front leg, came out the gullet and he still ran 100yds or so before expiring. Tried 185gr soft (30/30) on a hog carcass, NO exit from shoulder area and NO detected broken anything. Expansion through the gut but I don't want gut shot. 1% Sn,Zn & Sn so really soft. 45 dia exit. Years ago I did go as backup for GS. Max range was 25yds and my 165 RD 1800 fps (30/30) would have penciled through a deer. He missed a shot after dusk with his 243. I didn't shoot as I only heard it.
Hint. Get a factory pointy round for the 308. Find the length where the flat point is same dia. as the dia on the pointy and load to that COAL. It will then feed good in the AR. Works good on my 170 & 185 like the Lee. Loading mag length won't work well. Adjust powder for the seating depth.

[dtknowles]

I think 200 yard deer hunting rifle with 30 cal. cast bullets is an iffy thing. It is possible to be humane but it would be challenging. I considered 30-30 a marginal 200 yard gun even with jacketed bullets and with cast bullets in a 308 you will probably be in that same ball park at best. Me, personally, I don't think 6" groups on a shooting range shooting from a bench rest at 200 yards is acceptable accuracy for hunting deer at 200 yards in the wild.

Tim

[Tatume]

Hi Tim,

I agree that shooting from a bench rest is not a good indicator of ability in the field. But 6" grouping ability using field positions is adequate. My reference to "bench-rest competition accuracy" was a euphemism for excess dependence on grouping ability when other factors are much more important.

Personally, I do not use a rest for any purpose. I sight in offhand, I practice offhand, and I base my judgement on whether or not to take a shot on my offhand ability. If I get a chance to lean against a tree or other impromptu support, so much the better, but I can do without as I'm perfectly willing to pass on a shot I'm not comfortable taking.

Thanks your your thoughtful insight.

Take care, Tom

[ABJ]

I think 200 yard deer hunting rifle with 30 cal. cast bullets is an iffy thing. It is possible to be humane but it would be challenging. I considered 30-30 a marginal 200 yard gun even with jacketed bullets and with cast bullets in a 308 you will probably be in that same ball park at best. Me, personally, I don't think 6" groups on a shooting range shooting from a bench rest at 200 yards is acceptable accuracy for hunting deer at 200 yards in the wild.

Tim

I agree, 100%

Tony

[dtknowles]

Hi Tim,

I agree that shooting from a bench rest is not a good indicator of ability in the field. But 6" grouping ability using field positions is adequate. My reference to "bench-rest competition accuracy" was a euphemism for excess dependence on grouping ability when other factors are much more important.

Personally, I do not use a rest for any purpose. I sight in offhand, I practice offhand, and I base my judgement on whether or not to take a shot on my offhand ability. If I get a chance to lean against a tree or other impromptu support, so much the better, but I can do without as I'm perfectly willing to pass on a shot I'm not comfortable taking.

Thanks your your thoughtful insight.

Take care, Tom

I agree and was not disagreeing with you just trying to make sure everyone gets it. One more thing to add is that unless you use a range finder and are good a reading the wind staying in the kill zone at 200 yards in the field with even a 2 MOA gun/load is a challenge for most, myself included when you are talking about the kind of trajectories you get with these bullet weights and velocities. It is a lot harder than when using a 1 MOA gun that shoots a high BC bullet at 3000 fps where you can sight the gun in a 100 yards and 200 yards is still point blank range even with a 20 knot crosswind.

Tim

[dverna]

Why you want to turn a .308 to be used for hunting into a .30/30, or less, is interesting. If you will be taking shots to 200 yards, it makes it more interesting.

You can dink around with alloys, heat treating, different powders, bullet design, lubes/coatings etc and still not have the accuracy or performance of a decent jacketed bullet that costs $35/100. But it is your time and money.

I hunt with jacketed in the .308. If you want to use cast for cheaper practice shooting just know how much to adjust your sights for the different rounds. If you are adamant about hunting with cast bullets, it might be prudent to reduce your range depending on the velocity you get with your load.

[LouisianaPatriot]

Thank you to everyone who responded to my post. I apologize for not being more interactive, I had a 16 hour workday yesterday and crashed when I got home.

[LouisianaPatriot]

[QUOTE=dverna;5060210]Why you want to turn a .308 to be used for hunting into a .30/30, or less, is interesting. If you will be taking shots to 200 yards, it makes it more interesting.

I don't want to turn a .308 into a 30-30. I have been reloading jacketed rounds for .308 and other rifle calibers for years. I guess my question is now, what's the point of casting your own if you can't use them in a practical/field situation such as hunting? I didn't realize that the difference between jacked and cast in rifle calibers was so drastic.

[Wayne Smith]

do a search for BruceB's soft point boolit casting. I think you will answer your question. I think the thread is in the stickies.

[popper]

@Patriot Cast works fine for hunting, just a few limits on their use. I'd go for it, take a few jacket rnds for longer shots. Only way you'll find out what works.

[dtknowles]

[QUOTE=dverna;5060210]Why you want to turn a .308 to be used for hunting into a .30/30, or less, is interesting. If you will be taking shots to 200 yards, it makes it more interesting.

I don't want to turn a .308 into a 30-30. I have been reloading jacketed rounds for .308 and other rifle calibers for years. I guess my question is now, what's the point of casting your own if you can't use them in a practical/field situation such as hunting? I didn't realize that the difference between jacked and cast in rifle calibers was so drastic.

We are talking horses for courses. There are a lot of practical/field situations such as hunting where cast bullets are just fine. Longer range bigger game hunting with smaller bores is not really one of them. Hunters almost wiped out the Bison using cast bullets. Closer range small capacity smaller bore small game hunting and pest eradication, cast bullets are great. Larger bore heavy cast bullets are deadly out to a few hundred yards in the right gun in the right hands. A 30-30 equivalent cast bullet rifle is useful for a lot of hunting situations including for deer just 200 yards is pushing it. Every gun has its limitations. Would you shoot Cape Buffalo at 300 yards using your 308 with even the best bullets money can buy?

Tim

[LouisianaPatriot]

[QUOTE=dtknowles;5060764][QUOTE=LouisianaPatriot;5060601]
A 30-30 equivalent cast bullet rifle is useful for a lot of hunting situations including for deer just 200 yards is pushing it.
And that's the aspect that I am trying to learn....I am an ethical hunter. I have been in law enforcement for 26 years, 18 of which were as a swat/srt sniper so the importance of shot placement is of the utmost importance to me. A 200 yard shot with my rifle and commercially bought rounds or my own jacketed reloads is perfectly acceptable to me. Again, I had no idea that the difference between cast and jacketed was so drastic. Maybe I should stick to jacketed in the .308 and focus on cast for my .444 Marlin. I can cast 240 grain and 325 grain for that caliber. I am in Southeast Louisiana as you are, a 200 yard shot down here is considered long for us. The actual distance of my longest shooting lane is 170 yards. If I cant get a cast .308 to perform ethically at that distance than it's not worth my time and effort to cast boolits for that purpose.

[GregLaROCHE]

With that boolit being gas checked, I think you can experiment with higher velocities than 2000 f/s, improving its performance out to 200yards. Powder coating would be a plus if you are ready to get into it.

[LouisianaPatriot]

Thank you Mr. Greg! I only have a weeks left to my deer season, I have enough jacketed ammo to last me a while. My goal for 2021 will be to develop a workable load. Going to be a lot experimenting and range time but that's the fun part as well.

[popper]

273474
AR10/308W 168gr GC cast 31-165C PCd @ 200 yds. Lower shots was my buddy getting range right, upper 3 were mine. Big splatter was his 300 WM. Had to take the 4wheeler down to reset target. X24 Nikon scope BDC. POA was on 3rd BDC circle which put crosshair at top. Sighted for 100 yd Amax 2400 fps, same fps as cast load. Cast has a BC of ~0.33. Fired 2 Rem hog razor rnds and nicked the top of target. Can be done! Cast just has a lower BC and drop.

[dtknowles]

Thank you Mr. Greg! I only have a weeks left to my deer season, I have enough jacketed ammo to last me a while. My goal for 2021 will be to develop a workable load. Going to be a lot experimenting and range time but that's the fun part as well.

I think it is a worthy goal and I think it is achievable just not easy. You say you are shooting an AR-10, not all AR-10's are created equally accurate. My group sizes more than doubled going from match grade jacketed bullets to the best cast bullets I can make shooting my 30 caliber purpose built bench rest rifle. I am shooting a bullet meant for a 30-30 (Lyman 31141) that has a gas check and I am shooting it at about 2000 fps. Some 5 shot groups are under an MOA but as many are more like 1.5 MOA. Nothing is over 2 MOA now that I worked out some bugs.

I am neither an outstanding shooter nor an outstanding bullet caster but I am pretty meticulous about my reloading. All the cast bullets I am shooting are visually perfect and weight sorted. I am casting the bullets from Linotype because that is what most cast bullet bench rest shooter do and harder bullets can take the stresses from higher velocity and greater rotational/spin rates better. Because your gun has a 1:10 twist your bullets will see more stress and any bullet imbalance will be amplified. My gun has a 1:16 twist.

I have not tried powder coating but some of those that do claim good performance at maybe even velocities of 3000 fps. My Lyman cast bullet handbook has 308 loads at over 2700 fps. It is just a matter of how accurately you can get them to shoot.

Tim

[dtknowles]

273474
AR10/308W 168gr GC cast 31-165C PCd @ 200 yds. Lower shots was my buddy getting range right, upper 3 were mine. Big splatter was his 300 WM. Had to take the 4wheeler down to reset target. X24 Nikon scope BDC. POA was on 3rd BDC circle which put crosshair at top. Sighted for 100 yd Amax 2400 fps, same fps as cast load. Cast has a BC of ~0.33. Fired 2 Rem hog razor rnds and nicked the top of target. Can be done! Cast just has a lower BC and drop.

I can't read the words on the target. Do you really think that is good enough and who hunts at 200 yards with a 24 power scope. One of your three shots missed by 3 inches that is getting close to the edge of the kill zone. I am guessing that with more time getting it sighted in with the cast bullet ammo you would do better. Your target is also bright and clear with a easy to discern center. I guess this all would go to the judgement about whether to take a shot. How clear is the deer, can you tell where are the vitals, how is the wind, do you know how far away the deer is. What were you resting the rifle on?

Tim

[dtknowles]

.......Also, Lyman's casting and load data...can I use that data for my Lee mold in a similar weight?

I noticed we did not answer this question. I do, I start with the starting load and work up. Usually accuracy drops off before you get into a place where pressures start to be an issue with modern guns and cartridges. It is better if your bullet is a similar design as well as weight but I don't think that matters a lot. Alloy, seating depth, distance off the lands, and bullet diameter vs. groove diameter are just as important.

Tim

[popper]

Slightly over MOA, only time I shot past 100. Buddy never shot ar10 before. Sitting in sunflower field and red 3sidedplastic rest.

[megasupermagnum]

Guys this little Cajun boy is confused as all get out!! While I've been casting and reloading for pistols, casting for rifles is pretty new to me.
Here's what I'm working with, AR-10 1-10" twist in .308, a Lee 309-170-F boolit mold (mine are dropping at 172gr with GC using wheel weights) and a handful of different powders.
Here's where I'm confused...there's a difference in loading target rounds vs hunting rounds. When looking at load data how do I know which load is stout enough to drop a white tail deer?
I've been water quenching my boolits and now read that I shouldn't be for hunting purposes. Is that true?
My maximum shot is 200 yards. Can hunting with CB's achieve this in a .308? I'm going cross-eyed looking at the load data. I don't want to go hunting with an ineffective load, that would be cruel.
Also, Lyman's casting and load data...can I use that data for my Lee mold in a similar weight?

Yes, reading from the guys who really push the envelope can get very confusing. It goes from easy, to very hard up a very steep slope. How fast you want to send those bullets is up to you. Even at 1200 fps should be plenty lethal for deer, but would drop a lot at 200 yards. No, you are not likely to get good accuracy at 2700 fps with those bullets in that gun. I just did a quick check, and at 2100 fps, you should have a good +- 3" point blank range to a little past 200 yards. It is not that hard to get good accuracy at 2100 fps. Just pick a powder you like, IMR 4895 or IMR 3031 are good ones. It looks like data starts you close to 1850 fps. Start there, and work up. It may surprise you just how fast you can shoot them with good accuracy. The keys are a good quality bullet, and a good fit in the throat. .311" is a good size to start with usually. Visually check all bullets for perfection, then weight sort them. Throw any bullet outside of +- 0.2 grains. The Lee 170 grain is a bore riding bullet. Ideally the nose would be just scratched by the rifling, but often it is slightly small. A loose fit is not helping anything. In a semi-auto, I would seat bullets so the front band is just just about touching the rifling, not jammed in. Others can help with alloy better than I can. I would start with air cooling your current alloy, and see how that shoots. Water quenched COWW is very hard, and not what you want in a hunting bullet.

[charlie b]

First, I don't hunt anymore and the only cast bullets I used for hunting were with muzzle loaders.

All of this depends on what velocity and bullet weight you want to have at the longest range you will shoot.

The 1:10 twist in .30cal can cause some issues with accuracy once velocities increase beyond 2000fps. But, each bullet and barrel and alloy are different. Some people have had luck at 2500fps. I find accuracy in mine starts to go "bad" somewhere around 2100fps. What that means is I get 3MOA groups instead of 1 or 1 1/2 MOA. I keep my loads at 2000fps or less.

So, at 2000fps muzzle velocity I can use a 210gn bullet and still have ~1700fps/1340ftlb at 200yds. Using a 165gn bullet I will have ~1600fps/980ftlb.

As a reference, a 170gn .30-30 load is shown as 2200fps from the muzzle. At 200yd it is around 1650fps/1040ftlb. For comparison a 168gn jacketed bullet in my .308 is still going 1700fps at 600yd.

Use the data how you want.