Lee Enfield

[2A-Jay]

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Last Friday I bought an Enfield .303 Brit complete with Bayonet. No rear iron sight, but it has a Scope mounted on it. No dings or dents on the stock. One 10rd magazine and a full box of Federal Classic .303 Brit ammo 180gr Sierra Pro Hunter bullets.

Total Cost $200.0.

[Cargo]

That's a beauty, you did great. I have grown very tired of black plastic guns.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Good buy! That would bring $500 in some locations.

DG

[Stephen Cohen]

Very nice example there. A shame you don't live next door I could give you a rear sight. Regards Stephen

[samari46]

Liberty Tree Collectors should have the milled rear sight plus the axis pin and the tiny pin that goes through a hole in the axis pin in place after the sight is installed. Frank

[nicholst55]

Liberty Tree Collectors should have the milled rear sight plus the axis pin and the tiny pin that goes through a hole in the axis pin in place after the sight is installed. Frank

A spring and detent will also be required.

[marlin39a]

Looks like an Irish #4 that was imported new, in cosmoline, around 25 yrs ago. Beautiful rifle.

[higgins]

When you order the sight, ask for a sight marked with an "F" for the Fazakerly (sp?) armory where those late No.4s were made. Shouldn't be hard to get since Fazakerly made most of the parts for repair, storage, etc. for the last several years such parts and rifles were made.

[godzilla]

I think that scope might be a tad undersized for the round......:-o

[MOC031]

Last Friday I bought an Enfield .303 Brit complete with Bayonet. No rear iron sight, but it has a Scope mounted on it.

Please tell us that's an SK no-gunsmithing mount on that rifle (or something similar) and Bubba didn't drill and tap the receiver for scope mounts. Just about every other part on that rifle can be sourced for restoration. But there's no changing a drilled receiver.

Who was the manufacturer, serial number prefixes, etc.?

As somebody said, it looks like it might be one of the Irish Contract No. 4's that started hitting the shores about 30 years ago. If you got really lucky in other ways, it's a pristine Long Branch from the last of the best, 1950 and a few others over the next few years as parts were used up prior to switching to manufacturing the FN FAL. Leisurely rifle manufacturing, rather than the rush during the exigencies of war.

There's a huge collection of Lee Enfield collectors, along with their knowledgebase library, over on the Milsurps forum. They can tell you what the proper rear sight would be for the rifle once they know manufacturer and year from the serial number prefix. As well as whether or not it's the right bayonet if it's collector grade (i.e. not drilled and tapped).

Just as a shooter, that there is a pretty good deal at $200 all in. Last time I saw an original, as new, No. 4 Mk.1 magazine, I think it had a $70 price tag on it.

I'm not really a collector, but I do have a very deep interest in No. 4 Mk1* rifles in particular. Especially when they're able to be set up for some serious long range shooting.

You know the drill on case preparation, resizing, etc?

Privi Partisan currently makes the best .303 British cases available since the Greek HXP surplus dried up. Life is much easier for Lee Enfield owners when they start with good brass, properly prepare it, and then properly resize after firing.

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[Der Gebirgsjager]

Tell us about your rifle's rear sight, MOC031.

DG

[atr]

I want to know about that rear sight also!

[alamogunr]

I want to know about that rear sight also!

+3 I've never seen anything like that.

As to price, I've been swindled! I paid more than 5 times that for an unissued #4 mk II and it doesn't look any better than the picture posted by MOCO31. Now people are going to say I've got more money than sense. They may be right and I don't have any money.

[lrdg]

Looks like an Irish #4 that was imported new, in cosmoline, around 25 yrs ago. Beautiful rifle.

I got one of those several years back. Quite the dilemma, take it out of the armory paper and clean out the cosmiline or not. (I decided they are tools made to be used.)

[LAGS]

I got lucky years ago and picked up an Un Fired #4Mk 2 for under $200.00.
Been offered $1000.00 for it still in the same condition.
Five years before that I found an almost mint #4 mk1* for less than $100.00.
I think you did good on the price.
Now , I am talking about over 30 years ago when I lived in California.
In fact , I had to wait two weeks after the Rodney King Riots were over for them to release the mk1 to me since I purchased it the day before the riots started.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Good deal that should give you many years of enjoyment.

I have a soft spot for the old LE's from the turn of last century, these BSA 1900, Sparkbrook 1901, LSA 1902 manufacture.

https://i.imgur.com/ecTTkwi.jpg

[MOC031]

Tell us about your rifle's rear sight, MOC031.

That is a Parker Hale PH4 target sight that was popular in the shootier Commonwealth nations (i.e. England, Canada, Ireland, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia) after the No. 4 Mk1 replaced the earlier Lee Enfield variants during WWII. The issue sight on my 1950 Long Branch is the final variant, a sliding rear aperture with stops at corresponding yardages, versus the earlier thumbscrew vernier models that could be finely adjusted for elevation. The sliding variant is a fine sight, and works just fine when using the Commonwealth issue ball ammo from 1910 to current day (in a few remaining places), the Mark VII, a 174 gr spitzer at 2,440 fps. But for handloads (or cast bullets), the fixed range graduations don't always work so great, especially if you're shooting at distance. And properly set up Lee Enfields will REALLY shoot at distance.

The issue sight is graduated to 1300 yards; the PH4 vernier offers 1,000 yards of elevation if using Mk VII ball ammunition and +/- 30 minutes of windage. One thing that distinguishes it from the later PH5 and the much more famous A.J. Parker target sights is the PH4 is a direct drop in replacement for the service rear sight. You simply pull the retaining pin out of the sight cross bolt, pull out the service sight and drop in the PH4, then back goes the cross bolt and insert the retaining pin. Folds down exactly like the service sight does, keeping it out of the way.

The rear sight disc came with the PH4, but was also sold separately as a PH Model 53 (if I remember the designation correctly). It offers six different size apertures to choose from, depending on the light conditions of the day.

This is an excellent sight design - you would expect that a folding target sight would be of questionable rigidity and expect to see that show itself once you get out to around 600 yards or so. But Parker Hale knew what they were doing. I fired my rifle with this sight right after firing a DCRA conversion with an A.J. Parker Twin Zero, on the same day using Greek HXP ball, at 600 yards. My 20 round grouping for the two rifles were indistinguishable.

Parker Hale's advertising copy when they introduced the sight in 1946:




The PARKER-HALE MODEL 4 APERTURE BACKSIGHT
For the No. 4 Mk. 1 Rifle
Officially approved by the National Rifle Association

This compact and neatly designed aperture backsight was introduced at the 1946 Bisley Meeting, where it was welcomed because it was the one thing needed to make the new No. 4 Mark 1 into a target rifle, suitable for use in N.R.A. (S.R. class b) competitions. As illustrated and originally sold there was no windage zeroing adjustment, but now all sights have a neat adjustable windgauge scale plate. It has the usual vernier elevation and windgauge movements combined with distinct 2 minute clicks. The eyepiece gives a choice of six apertures from .03" to .08". Being designed to displace the Service aperture backsight it can be fixed by the removal and replacement of the sight axis pin.

It is a part of the design that this and its military counterpart are sights pivoted and retained in the up or down position by the action of a spring loaded plunger operating on the foot of the leaf. On recoil the sight is forced out of the vertical position but recovers due to the operation of the spring and plunger.

It is, therefore, essential that complete freedom of movement at the hinge should be assured by careful fitting in the first place and a simple test may be imposed by pushing the sight forward 10º and allowing it to recover its vertical position noting the complete absence of friction and the recovery of the sight to the correct upright position.

Since these sights must of necessity be fitted to rifles made under the stress of war conditions in various factories, it may be essential to ease the excess metal from the pivotal points on the rifle, with another feature to note carefully is the fit of the plunger in its guide hole. With proper attention paid to these details, this model PH.4. need never be blamed for its shortcomings as an aperture sight of excellent merit and serviceability.

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I like the sight much better than my brother's A.J. Parker that is rigidly affixed with screws to the left hand side of the receiver, both because it essentially folds out of the way when not in use and isn't as likely to be knocked about... and because it looks much more elegant to my eyes. But I can see why many competitive shooters preferred the guaranteed rigidity of the other Parker Hale and A.J. Parker variants that were fixed in place with screws to the receiver.

[MOC031]

The Greeks made some very fine ball ammunition. If you can find some, you should at least buy some to give you an idea of what your original condition Lee Enfield is capable of with ball ammunition.

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[Der Gebirgsjager]

Thanks for that write up on the sight, MOC031. Maybe the Forum Staff will make it a "sticky" as that is a lot of good information.
I wonder...in the information they refer the sight as being suitable for the National Rifle Assn. Are they talking about our NRA or the British version?

I have a sizeable accumulation of Lee Enfields myself, including two perhaps unfired Long Branch late production models. I think that they were still the No.4 Mk. I version. I've always preferred the No.1 Mk. III model myself, but would be hard put to offer a coherent reason for that preference. I have several British No.1s and several Indian No.1s--but the Aussie Lithgow always eluded my grasping fingers. This is some of my No. 1 accumulation, but I've never assembled the No.4s for a group photo.

273699

I did take a photo of just this one No.4 Mk. 1/2 (arsenal converted from a Mk. 1 to a Mk. 2).

273700

You're spot on about the high quality of the Greek .303 ammo. I bought several hundred rounds of it when it was available, and just last year acquired about 500 once-fired empties from another Forum member. So, I'm set for life with .303 ammo to reload. I've had pretty good luck with the Lee mold. I also use RCBS dies dating back to the 1970s.

Not wanting to ruin the day of pure collectors, but I also have several sporterized No.1s, but only one No.4. Here and there I encountered Lee Enfields that had already passed through the hands of Bubba and couldn't be put back to as-issued without installing new barrels (not always easy to find) so I finished the jobs, and they came out very nicely. A No. 1 sporter was my last project, completed a couple of months ago, and it may actually be my last L.E. project as there are no more waiting and no desire to acquire more.

273702

Great rifles, one and all.

DG

[atr]

thanks for your write up regarding the Parker Hale rear sight.
much appreciated.
I have about 500 rds left of the Greek manufactured .303 ball ammunition. It IS good ammunition.
atr

[MOC031]

Thanks for that write up on the sight, MOC031. Maybe the Forum Staff will make it a "sticky" as that is a lot of good information.

I think maybe a sticky laying out the basics of case preparation and reloading for Lee Enfields would probably be more useful here on a cast bullet website. The "Lee Enfields have excess headspace!" fable is strong on the Internet. Meanwhile, the number of people here who are sling and belly shooters, poking away at long range, is probably pretty minimal.


I wonder...in the information they refer the sight as being suitable for the National Rifle Assn. Are they talking about our NRA or the British version?

Brit NRA... predates our NRA by a few decades. I wonder how much the originators of the NRA here cribbed off the Brit NRA as far as aims and ideals, sort of like the Second Amendment (and it's state predecessors) may have been cribbed or at least inspired by the English Bill of Rights.

Canada's DCRA was founded in 1868, New Zealand's National Rifle Association dates back to about 1877, the NRA of Australia a few years later, etc. The Commonwealth nations have been organized for long range plinking with service rifles for a century and a half. Most of it, overwhelmingly, with various versions of Lee Enfields. Lee-Metfords were apparently preferred by some competitors up into the 1930's.

https://nra.org.uk/home-page/


I have a sizeable accumulation of Lee Enfields myself, including two perhaps unfired Long Branch late production models.

Last Long Branch 93L - 95L serial number rifles I saw at gun shows that appeared unfired/unissued had price tags on them of around $1100. You don't want to lose a magazine and find out what a replacement original sells for.

Long Branches are generally considered to be the zenith of Lee Enfield craftmanship, although a friend has a BSA No.1 Mk. III, dated 1917, with fit and wood & metal finish that makes it look like it was built for the commercial firearms trade. Looks like it just came off the assembly floor, not so much as a handling mark on it. Same guy just paid north of $2000 for a Long Lee in pristine condition. I might have some detail pictures of that 1917 BSA somewhere.

I'm old enough to remember when hardware stores had barrels full of Lee Enfields, P14s and P17s, etc sitting in a corner somewhere, priced at around $10 apiece as I remember. My first hunting rifle was/is a bubba'd (now I think, sadly) P17 that I watched my dad pull out of one of those barrels. He gave it to my grandfather, a machinist, and when I saw it next the barrel was slightly bobbed, a bunch of the wood trimmed off, the sight ears ground or milled down, and it was sporting a Stith mount that held a used Weaver K4 scope. Still have that rifle... hefting it now, I think the Old Man's plan was to make me lug that heavy thing up and down mountains hunting elk and sheep with him to put some muscle on my bones. Still feels heavy...


I think that they were still the No.4 Mk. I version. I've always preferred the No.1 Mk. III model myself, but would be hard put to offer a coherent reason for that preference.

The choice between having a rear sight mounted on the barrel versus an adjustable rear aperture on the No. 4, along with the accompanying longer sight radius makes that an easy choice for me.

That's a pretty nice group from the looks of it. From an enthusiast's viewpoint, you need to rig your slings properly; as far as I can tell, not all of them are. The hooks go to the outside; the brass band to the inside.

The only Lee Enfield Bubba that I ever owned, I bought an already Bubba'd No. 4, and in a conspiracy involving Ken Mollahan, reBubbaed and rebarrelled it into a .40 caliber Mexican Mauser for use as a bear wrench in camp. Sold it after I acquired the BLR in .358 Winchester; wish I hadn't done that - it moved a big heavy hunk of lead at pretty impressive velocities. The last I heard, the guy who bought it to move up to the North West Territories with his new bride, was still using it to knock down moose and caribou. Ugly as it was, I doubt riding around on an ATV or snowmobile hurts the looks of it too much.


You're spot on about the high quality of the Greek .303 ammo. I bought several hundred rounds of it when it was available, and just last year acquired about 500 once-fired empties from another Forum member.

I saw some Greek HXP online somewhere a few years ago, going for almost $2/round. I can't remember how many cases I bought when the word got out on the match circuit how good it was and cheap at the same time, but I bought a lot of it. Still have somewhere around a half thou left. I was going with the thought of pulling the bullets and charge, then putting a false shoulder on, then recharging and reseating to get maximum life out of the brass. But when I saw how tight my Long Branch is, and how minimal the stretching is just firing it as it is, I decided the juice just didn't justify the squeeze. Especially if the accuracy of the re-assembled ammunition was less than that of the unaltered ammunition.

My position and belief is that the ready availability of Privi Partisan brass for Lee Enfield reloaders means guys today don't have to sniffle about missing out on the Greek HXP, Radway Green, etc primo ball ammo that did so well over the course. Quality ammunition like that, selling at bargain basement pricing was an awesome thing. But that ammo like the rocking horse has bolted, and you cannot find the poop anyway it's that hard to get when you can find it.

I've measured the crap out of WWII dated Mark VII, HXP cases and Privi Partisan, unfired and fired and trimmed, and there is little difference between any of them as far as rim thickness and other case measurements. That's why my invariable suggestion to those starting reloading for Lee Enfields is invest a few extra shekels and buy a couple of hundred cases of Privi Partisan. Properly form a false shoulder, minimal resizing, and finger/flame annealing (for those of us that don't have annealers) every few firings, and the PP cases will last a long, long, long time.

I'm not so crazy about fired casings of any make from some other Lee Enfield. They could be a great deal - or they could have been fired out of a Lee Enfield with a No. 3 bolt head that is about to accept a no-go gauge... I'd rather avoid having to not even think about potential problems with brass. If quality brass wasn't readily available at very reasonable prices, then I'd be all over once fired HXP like a fat kid on the last brownie on a tray.


Not wanting to ruin the day of pure collectors, but I also have several sporterized No.1s, but only one No.4. Here and there I encountered Lee Enfields that had already passed through the hands of Bubba and couldn't be put back to as-issued without installing new barrels (not always easy to find) so I finished the jobs, and they came out very nicely.

Restoration of Lee Enfields is really taking off, including new barrel manufacture for those who can't find or can't bother finding an original. Wood is still readily available, etc. But it is getting pricier all the time. The one thing you can't address is a modified receiver (and in my personal opinion, non matching bolts).

My brother the Ross Rifle nut is just putting the finishing touches to his faux No. 4 sniper. He found a Bubba'ed wartime Long Branch of the right year for the Long Branch snipers, managed to find a Long Branch sniper butt for his rifle, found an Alaskan scope of the period, then shelled out the dinero for the replica scope mounting bits and a new barrel (Lothar Walther? I can't remember). He said it was pretty close to being a bug hole shooter with some of his remaining HXP, so he was really happy.

Anyways, fixing a lot of what Bubba has done over the years is often quite possible if you care, and are willing to search, and sometimes willing to shell out the money to do that. Some fixes are quite inexpensive. The last all matching Long Branch sniper, complete in transit case, that I saw had an $8000 price tag on it... makes me cry when I remember regularly seeing them at gun shows back in the 1980's with $400 price tags on them, and I wondered why anyone would want an old wartime bolt action Lee Enfield with a really old low powered scope on it so badly they'd pay $400 for it...

I've accumulated quite a stash of Lee Enfield stuff, complete to the manuals Canadian military gun plumbers had for servicing the Long Branch Lee Enfields. Reynold's book, Skip Stratton's book, the DCRA diagrams on modifying the military stock for Service Rifle competition, etc. And a recent one out there by an Aussie (I think, maybe a Kiwi) that purports to be the definitive guide to accurizing the Lee Enfield rifle. That one was well worth the coin to buy it; most of the rest can be found for download on sites like the Milsurp one I mentioned earlier.

If you're short of something, drop me a PM or email or whatever, and I'll see if I have it in .pdf form.

If somebody over at the Milsurps web forums can't answer any question regarding Lee Enfield rifles, then you probably didn't really need to know in the first place. That's my go to website - until the subject of casting for Lee Enfields comes up. There... they're not quite so expert....

[samari46]

Lee Enfields you either love them or hate them. Fortunately for me I love them. #4MKII Faz made in 1947 if I remember right. There used to be a place in upstate NY called Lead Loader Firearms. Bought a A.J. Parker match buttstock for $140 many years ago. Lucky I actually received it as the owner had a bad reputation (unknown to me at the time) of selling stuff he didn't actually have. Stuck it on the #4 and still haven't sanded and finished yet. Going on about 30 some odd years. Would put my fat face even with the issue sights. Shot well with Greek 303, and South African 303,and Some Privi Partisan as well. None of the above showed the rather large expansion of the brass as it was made right. Rem,Win and Fed brass after being fired horrible in that regard as well as hotter than standard MKVII ball at about 2440 fps. My other #4 is a Parker Hale sporter on a 1942 Long Branch. two groove bbl and looks like it was (the barrel) made yesterday. That I haven't shot yet. Issue rear sight and ramp front sight cut for the standard military issue sight blades. 22" barrel and cut down forestock. Issue buttstock. Frank

[fixit]

Seeing that makes my mind drift to the no. 1 mk lll that I have. I bought it as a severely bubba'd relic, and through the years, I've kinda thought it would be a good candidate for a rebore and be remade into a late version of a lee-speed rifle. Alas, too many projects and ideas, for now.

[MOC031]

Well, if it's that severely Bubba'd, might be quite the job to attempt to morph it into a lee-speed.

You could make a Mexican Mauser out of it. Most excellent Bear Wrench for camp.