Barrel Harmonics and Muzzle Loaders

[GregLaROCHE]

Do the same principles apply to muzzle loaders as modern rifles? How about smooth bores? If so, does shooting with bayonets fixed make a difference in accuracy?

[John McCorkle]

Physics are still physics.

Typically it isn't discussed much because the design of traditional muzzleloader did not emphasize minute improvement that would not have likely been noticable.

The hyper tight tolerance in manufacturing, incredibly refined powder/primer/projectile combo, and high grade sporting optics of today give much greater clarity on the effects of barrel harmonics in accuracy.

Though, the accuracy output of some of those old rifles and shooters was insane!!

There are some beautiful examples of purpose built "race guns" in the muzzleloader community...they definitely take into account all factors that can open or close a group up. For average deer hunter like me, a good bedding compound in the stock and good peep sight/globe sight combo will take me further than I can realistically go

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[M-Tecs]

http://www.longrangebpcr.com/Sweet.htm

http://www.texas-mac.com/Minimizing_Barrel_Bounce_off_Cross_Sticks_Finding_ the_Sweet_Spot.html

[dave951]

YES!!!!

And even more so in some guns depending on configuration.

[quail4jake]

Try this...take a 40+ inch barrel long rifle with a well developed PRB load and fire a 100 yd group on the bench resting at the spot on the forearm where your hand rests shooting offhand. Now duplicate aal of the conditions and rest 12" forward and again another 12" until resting at the muzzle. This will answer the question of harmonics and POI. Even with the forearm extending out to the muzzle it very much matters. My experience with smoothbore PRB at 50 yds. shows more hits with steady offhand pointing than by resting but if I rest on the forearm I make sure it's in the hand spot, further out really changes POI. Great topic, love hearing other's experience.

[GregLaROCHE]

I’ve always thought that barrel harmonics was the one of the reasons why loads were increased or decreased, besides where the barrel was supported.

Some bench rest shooters use a barrel weight and I have heard that some say they get better accuracy with a suppressor. I am assuming it’s because of the a

[GregLaROCHE]

I’ve always thought that barrel harmonics was the one of the reasons why loads were increased or decreased, besides where the barrel was supported.

Some bench rest shooters use a barrel weight and I have heard that some say they get better accuracy with a suppressor. I am assuming it’s because of the added weight. So will a bayonet do the same thing?

[John McCorkle]

Prob just adding mass to the system....this is where my understanding gets thin but looking at the sled guns the bench rest guys use...looks like they are getting as much mass as possible to reduce the amount of vibration...like hitting a tiny Christmas bell with a spoon vs hitting a giant church bell ...both with ring but one much more loudly and with more energy in the vibration.

Lightweight barrels would prob be the Christmas bell, less mass and the energy of firing makes the vibration much more exaggerated. You can still get tack driving accuracy from pencil weight barrels but they don't do well with heat of firing and accuracy nodes are very pronounced.

Look up tac com harmonically dead barrels ...it's a cool study in what guys looking for the elr accuracy are looking for.

Bayonet? Idk. Unless it's very very solid any vibration in the mount may chance poi shot to shot? I have no idea

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[John Boy]

.... and one must remember, change your ammunition for a specific firearm, the sweet spot for the harmonic vibration will change also. Finally, the general area of the bore on a rifle for the sweet spot is approximately 7” from the muzzle

[oldracer]

You can look at your barrels harmonics by testing it as this: just before you get ready to fire, spray a light coat of silicone over the barrel then sprinkle some talc powder over all the barrel. Fire the load and then look at the resulting pattern down the barrel. There will be lighter and darker places. What that all means is??????? But you'll see a harmonics pattern. I tried it on a 45-70 Rolling Block with a 40 inch Badger barrel and tried resting the barrel on a spot where the powder was dark at then light, no difference in the shot groups at 300 yards.
John

[GregLaROCHE]

I’m interested in historic type muzzle loaders with barrel bands. How do barrel bands effect harmonics?

[GregLaROCHE]

The first minute of this video shows how much a barrel can distort when fired. I had never seen any slow motion video of it before and was really surprised how much distortion there is. I’m not sure if all barrels distort this much, but this one sure did. Do muzzle loaders distort that much?

https://youtu.be/Jb6C9ASylmQ

[charlie b]

Yes, they can. How much depends on a lot of things with the thickness of the barrel being the biggest.

And yes, barrel bands will affect it as do wedges and pins along with having half vs full stocks. So, each rifle is a little different, which is why there are articles on finding the sweet spot of each rifle.

[LoveND]

Cryogenic treating the barrel will greatly improve the harmonics. The muzzle whip will be a lot less resulting in tighter groups. Before you send a barrel to be cryogenic treated balance it on a finger and tap it. Remember the sound. Then do the same when it come back after treatment. The sound will be not clunky but a sweet quiet musical sound. Ive treat many a barrel with the cryogenic method modern rifle and muzzle loader and they all have shot better after the treatment. They also clean easier and with modern rifle I’ve gotten 100 ft per second out of the barrel faster bullet. It makes the steel more slick also. It is a positive all the way around. My rifles muzzle loaders and my sons modern rifles are very very accurate. They are all cryogenic treated. If you want to go one step past cryogenic treatment as does the olympic shooters have the barrel sonic vibration treated. Then you barrel will give you accuracy beyond most shooters dreams.

[Plastikosmd]

1” “bull” barrel 308 next to one of my heavy bench guns. Muzzleloader barrel is still bigger than the Unertl programmer on the 308. Weigh of rifle is about 80lbs
https://i.postimg.cc/s2BMjX3n/0-CFC4-ECC-5-F4-E-42-DD-A8-E1-031590251065.jpg (https://postimg.cc/f3Nz5MtX)

[megasupermagnum]

Cryogenic treating the barrel will greatly improve the harmonics. The muzzle whip will be a lot less resulting in tighter groups. Before you send a barrel to be cryogenic treated balance it on a finger and tap it. Remember the sound. Then do the same when it come back after treatment. The sound will be not clunky but a sweet quiet musical sound. Ive treat many a barrel with the cryogenic method modern rifle and muzzle loader and they all have shot better after the treatment. They also clean easier and with modern rifle I’ve gotten 100 ft per second out of the barrel faster bullet. It makes the steel more slick also. It is a positive all the way around. My rifles muzzle loaders and my sons modern rifles are very very accurate. They are all cryogenic treated. If you want to go one step past cryogenic treatment as does the olympic shooters have the barrel sonic vibration treated. Then you barrel will give you accuracy beyond most shooters dreams.

Sounds like a Benelli comercial.:p

[LoveND]

I don’t know who they are. Speaking from over twenty five or more rifle barrel experience. Do not care if you consider it or not. That’s your business. Only passing on info to those who want the best. It’s proven science not pop art.

[curdog007]

The most important thing to do with a full stock muzzleloader barrel is to slot the pin holes in the barrel lugs, so the barrel can expand and contract with different temperatures. Also, it allows the stock wood to do it's thing during different seasons without binding anything up.
The barrel needs to be a relaxed fit in a full stock, kinda just lay in there.
You won't get wild shots this way, and the first shot (the important one) is on the money.

[koger]

In my gunsmithing carreer, I have glass bedded, over 50 traditional MLs, give them a solid bed the length of the half stock, TC Renegades and Hawkens mostly, several with custom barrels. Every one of them shot better, some slightly, some much better.

[megasupermagnum]

I don’t know who they are. Speaking from over twenty five or more rifle barrel experience. Do not care if you consider it or not. That’s your business. Only passing on info to those who want the best. It’s proven science not pop art.

Don't know Benelli? They are more of a shotgun brand, but do make rifles. They are one of the biggest brands in the world, and not just firearms. Their whole shtick for the last 20-30 years is that their barrels are all cryogenic treated.

[Edward]

Don't know Benelli? They are more of a shotgun brand, but do make rifles. They are one of the biggest brands in the world, and not just firearms. Their whole shtick for the last 20-30 years is that their barrels are all cryogenic treated.

So thats a bad thing ? Shows the science has had 30 yrs to be proven wrong an has"t been ,Benelli is one of the biggest for a reason and and critics/opinions are like (never mind) every one has one ./Ed

[megasupermagnum]

The very first shotgun I ever bought with my own money was a Benelli Nova. They make great guns, but the idea that cryogenic treatment does anything, especially a shotgun, is not exactly held in high regard with the shooting community. I've done some research, and the very best success story I've found is an amateur benchrest shooter who's rifle shooting about .8 MOA, went to .5 MOA after treatment. Color me impressed. The best thing you can say for sure is that a cryogenic treatment won't make it worse (other than your wallet).

[NyFirefighter357]

I haven't been able to find the video but I once watched a video where a guy put the stock of his gun in a vise, leveling his barrel. He then ran a thin strip of masking tape along the barrel and marked it off in 1" increments. At each mark he placed a thin metal ring like a curtain ring or key ring. He then used a piece of wood to tap the barrel over the stocked portion. After a few taps the rings moved to where the vibration was the most I believe. He reset & did this several times marking where they gathered. This was to determine the best place to install a De-resonator/barrel tuner.

Adding anything to a barrel will change the harmonics as well as shooting different speed/weight bullets & different speed powders ect.

[KCSO]

In the old days when setting up a rifle for 100 yard cross stick we tested the rifle with it resting on the sticks every couple of inches out to the muzzle to see where it shot best. When I build a rifle with wedges I like to have each wedge pull out with the same force or as close as I can get. Pinned barrels all have oblong pin holes in the barrel loops to allow for expansion and vibration.

[LoveND]

Here I go again. If you have a target rifle,muzzle loader or modern and want to do one thing more beside all of the above their is one more thing for consistent accuracy. Rubber o rings from the auto store from just in front of the fore stock to about a inch from the muzzle. I have on hunting muzzle loader I’ve done this to. Double row of rubber o rings. It is a custom inline i had built for me. Using paper patched bullets it is a one hole gun at 100 yards. Took a deer a couple of years ago at over 200 yards through the neck 3 inches below point of aim. I dont under stand a nay sayer about proven science. If they dont like it or just have fun poo pooing every thing, dont ruin it for the ones who are seeking proven science. With my rifles the only thing I haven’t tried yet is the sonic vibration treatment. Will some day on a pet rifle. Cryogenic treating glass bedding. And making the slots longer on a muzzle loader like was posted here by a member is proven science.

[megasupermagnum]

You are the only person I've ever seen say cryogenic barrel treatments help to any real degree. It is anything but proven science. If it were, every barrel maker would do it. Outside of Benelli and Kreiger, nobody else does as far as I know.

[charlie b]

I have not seen anything that says Krieger cryo treats barrels. They go to a lot of trouble to buy barrel material already heat treated to their standards. Maybe their suppliers cryo treat as part of their process?

[megasupermagnum]

I have not seen anything that says Krieger cryo treats barrels. They go to a lot of trouble to buy barrel material already heat treated to their standards. Maybe their suppliers cryo treat as part of their process?

Cryogenic treatment isn't a heat treatment, it is a stress releiver. I know Kreiger used to do it to all their barrels. A quick search shows nothing on their website. Some forum chatter from last year suggests that they may have stopped due to a dispute with another cryogenic treatment company.

[charlie b]

I understand what cryo is. Krieger specifies that their source material is stress free so I wonder if the suppliers do that though careful control of the heat treatment process or with cryo. I know the Army did that when making larger gun barrels instead of cryo treatment (at least they did back in the 80's).

[megasupermagnum]

Either way, barrel makers know what they are doing. I'm of the opinion sending them off for a cryo treatment is kind of like wearing a belt with suspenders. If it did anything good, they would all do it. Surely nobody thinks putting an O ring on a barrel does anything at all.:roll:

[M-Tecs]

Cryo does have legitimate benefits in improve machining characteristics and in cutting tools it appears to improve tooling life. For barrels I've had a bunch done simply because I got them done for free. I had to pay a batch price for work and if I had room I would add a couple of barrels per batch. Results varied from not detectable to noticeably less poi walking on a couple of factory barrels.

Some interesting discussions here http://www.benchrest.com/showthread.php?101168-Does-Krieger-Still-Cryogenic-Treat-Their-Barrels

[LoveND]

I love nay sayers, where would we be with out them.it would be dull with out them.very dull.

[rkcohen]

..before anyone casts disparaging remarks, a quick read can help settle a few things ref john krieger and cryo and cryo effects on metalurgy:

"Some makers, like John Krieger, for example, who produces both cut- and button-rifled barrels, have embraced cryogenic stress relieving, but he makes no accuracy claims for it. Others-mostly folks who are not barrel makers but who are in the cryo business, do claim accuracy benefits for freezing the bejesus out of steel. Krieger is convinced that cryo produces a steel that is easier on tools and machines better. Those who use it all agree, of course, and those who don't say it doesn't."


https://www.rifleshootermag.com/editorial/gunsmithing_rsgunsmith1/83442 "Before cryoing, Krieger told me in a recent conversation, he would often scra p three or four barrels out of 10 because the deep-hole drilling operation would produce blanks having more than .005-inch run-out when turned on centers. It's hard to believe that you can start drilling a hole smack in the middle of a 11⁄4-inch-diameter steel bar and after boring 28-30 inches, actually expect to come out within .005 inch of dead center at the other end!"

https://gundigest.com/gun-reviews/rifles-reviews/hot-shot-weatherbys-krieger-custom-rifle “Boring and rifling impose stresses on barrel steel,” Pete Paulin told me many moons ago. “Deep freezing relieves them. During bullet launch, a barrel expands radially and in length. Cryogenic treatment eliminates forces that skew expansion and contraction.”

............hope this helps....

[charlie b]

I only question it cause I can't find any reference to cryo on Krieger's web pages. Is he still using it or not? The first article above is dated 2010, the second 2018. The second quote was from 'many moons' before 2018.

[sharps4590]

If mine shot any better, I don't know what I'd do with the improvement...if I could even tell the difference.

[gunther]

If you are shooting offhand, practice will do more good than worrying about barrel harmonics. The Enfields used by both sides during the Civil War out shot the Springfields just because of the way the barrel bands were mounted in the stock. If you look at the way most bayonets are mounted, you will see that they are too loose to help or hurt accuracy much at all. I've watched a few short videos of the NSSA shoots, and don't remember seeing bayonets mounted on a gun on the firing line.

[oldracer]

If you like to experiment with that sort of thing there is a great way to see what your barrel is doing. My black powder mentor showed me the following: clean the bore well so any fouling will not affect things, clean the outside well from breech plug to muzzle, load the powder/patched ball, then coat the outside with oil such as Remoil. Finally sprinkle baby powder over the outside as evenly as possible. Insert the cap and then fire the round without touching the barrel. Look closely and you will see a sort of wave form going the whole length of the barrel. Looks neat, take some pictures then clean it all off. What does it mean??? I never figured it out although it does affect where you might want to rest the barrel on a bench rest shot but it makes a great conversation starter at the range!
John

[Good Cheer]

Hmm, should that .696 bore rifled musket be bedded?
And how much powder behind the 800 grain minie would it take for bedding to matter?

[indian joe]

In my gunsmithing carreer, I have glass bedded, over 50 traditional MLs, give them a solid bed the length of the half stock, TC Renegades and Hawkens mostly, several with custom barrels. Every one of them shot better, some slightly, some much better.

I agree - I did a 54cal CVA, glass bedded to a little forward of the lockplate, then it gets two pieces of heavy card under the nosecap - one goes under and up the sides (5 flats) other is just a strip on the bottom flat then a big squeeze to get the (single) wedge pin in.
so the wood is clear of the barrel and its got three solid points of contact with the barrel under tension - interestingly the card under the nosecap did most of the good.

[JHeath]

The first minute of this video shows how much a barrel can distort when fired. I had never seen any slow motion video of it before and was really surprised how much distortion there is. I’m not sure if all barrels distort this much, but this one sure did. Do muzzle loaders distort that much?

https://youtu.be/Jb6C9ASylmQ

I recently watched a youtube slow-mo video on barrel harmonics which I can't find now. It was of an African dangerous-game rifle, from the bench.

I could see the stock wrist flexing vertically. It was probably flexing horizontally too.

If harmonics matter in a muzzleloader with a 1" octagon barrel, maybe the thin wood through the lock and the wrist is a sizeable part of the picture.

Maybe an extended lollipop tang like on southern mountain rifles would affect accuracy.

Maybe the barrel resting point affects the oscillation of the entire rifle back to the butt. It changes the wavelength if the wrist is flexing.