45/120 sharps

[milltownhunter]

i been toying with getting a 45/120 sharps is there any advanage form the 45/70 ?

[JerryW]

A sore sholder quicker. Jerry W

[EDK]

Go over to shilohrifle.com/forums or bpcr.net and do some searches.

For 90%+ people, the 45/70 is a better idea....the larger 45s are for more specialized usage. Brass is considerably more expensive and harder to find.

BUT if it is what you want, for whatever reason, go for it. My SHILOH SHARPS is a 34 inch barrel 50/90 BECAUSE I always wanted a BIG 50....and it has even more logical reasons against it than a 45/120!

Be careful on your choice of manufacturers. Someone is really being upset about one of the imports and lack of support in correcting its' problems..and he hasn't gotten a gunsmith to volunteer to help him out either! (IIRC, the same person was doing a lot of posts on his fantastic groups with the gun until he slipped up and gave the extremely low number of rounds fired. A keyboard will give you some really good results with your rifle.) SHILOH SHARPS sets the standards in the industry for combination of quality and service. I'd buy a SHILOH (first choice)or an AXTELL SHARPS or a MEACHAM HIGH WALL and feel confident in the choice. None of them cheap, but guns that will last a lifetime, give good service, and hold their value.

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[405]

Aside from the no-no nature of any smokeless experimentation in such a long cartridge.... got to agree with the above posts about recoil and cost, etc. I have a fairly heavy Sharps in 45-110 and it is all I care to shoot for any long string of shots.... aside from the three bucks a pop for brass. Recoil tolerance varies of course. I'd seriously consider the 45-70 or 45-90.

[kevan]

I'm quite happy with my 45-120 Shiloh, brass is certainly pricey compared to a 45-70...mine weighs over 13 lbs so recoil although hefty is not severe.
Bullets used are the same as my 45-70s and when you start shooting bullets at or over 550 gr weight it launches them considerably faster.
At ranges of 1000 yds to a mile the trajectory advantage of the bigger 45 becomes clearly apparent.
Obviously the 45-120 is not for everyone, but nevertheless it is a lot of fun, and a really impressive hunting round to boot....:-D

[montana_charlie]

I'm not an historian, so I don't know the details about cartridge development in the 1800's.
But, I read what others say about that, and I have the impression the .45-120 was a Winchester offering.
Loaded the way Winchester did, I think it used a fairly light bullet...which would make it somewhat less punishing to shoot.

However, competition shooters universally agree that 'long' .45 bullets are required for extreme ranges. When you shove one of those into the mouth of a 3.25" case, you have asked for a different kind of experience.
The .45/70 is the most shooter-friendly of the straight-walled .45's because it is easiest to find a good loading for...regardless of bullet design. As the cartridge length increases, so does the learning curve when searching for the 'sweet load'.
It's not as simple as taking a known .45/70 load and increasing it by 30% (or whatever).

Some well-known competitors (who are able to devote the time and determination) have tweaked their .45-110's into nail drivers. Their carefully-tuned pet loads are shared with all who ask. So, the 'starting point' for a new shooter is well defined...but it's still a starting point when applied to his rifle.

The .45-120 is the next step up...and there is less information available to guide the newby.
The shooter who is new to BPCR, and who intends to use 500+ grain bullets, should assume he will see a fair amount of frustration before he chances upon something that amazes him.

Of course, the recoil may be all the 'amazement' he could wish for...
CM

[RMulhern]

Hmmmm.......well let's see here!

What's your physical build; are ya 5' 7" and weigh in at 145# or....are ya 6' 2" and weigh in at around 225# or so??

Have ya been shootin heavy recoiling rifles like the .300 Win Mag, .458 Win Mag, etc. most of ya life?

How 'old' are ya? If you're somewhere twixt the ages of 40-60....been accustomed to shootin heavy recoiling rifles most of ya life and aren't a 'fly-weight'....I'd say ya could handle a .45/120 without any harm! Blackpowder isn't nearly as violent about recoil as SP and with a rifle in the neighborhood of 14-15#....the recoil would be not bad at all. Some say the .45/120 cartridge isn't 'historically' correct...and that the Sharps company never produced it; others think that Sharps did actually produce it but it never went to market because the company went 'tits up'! Whatever the case...it's here now....and if ya want one.....get it!

I get chastised on occasion because I like to shoot this one; a 50/90 with long and heavy bullets but it is a joy to shoot 'Ole Thumper'...and hear these heavy slugs slap the gong!

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/710grcuppedbasePPbullets50x90SS.jpg

[Angus in Wyoming]

Listen to what everyone is saying. Buy what you want, but you did ask. Now not only is the brass more money you will also be shooting close to 2X the powder with each shot. It is certainly going to be more expensive to start up and shoot. As I said buy what you want and let us know. Good luck. Angus

[Kenny Wasserburger]

If your interests lie in the bigger 45 cals, I would suggest the 45-2 7/8ths Sharps the 110. Brass is a tad cheaper, As MC pointed out there is alot of load development and shared information of this caliber.

It does produce excellent results with PP or GG loads, from 200 yards too the Mythical Mile.

The lunger

[BruceB]

My wife gave me a standard-weight 30" Shiloh .50 back around 1980, with the curved/pointy "rifle" buttplate. Being much younger and a lot more macho (as well as green as grass), I'd told her I wanted the .50-3.25"....and that's how the rifle was marked. I just realized that my avatar shows me shooting the beast.

In actual fact, the chamber was .50-2.5", and many was the time that I was grateful for the shorter case! The rifle has now been re-barreled by Shiloh, and I selected the .45-2.1" (.45-70 length). This is a FAR nicer outfit to shoot, and flexible in the extreme.

Speaking of the Shiloh forum, I've been unable to open that site for several weeks at least. The website still works fine, except for the forums. Anybody know what's up?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Works fine for me?

The Lunger

PS dump your cookies and try again ?

[kodiak1]

Bruce its been working for me too.
The 45-70 is a real standard and a joy to shoot with 1000's of them out there and a ton of information.
I have 2 and a 40-90SBN, 45-100, 50-90 They are all great fun the 45-100 still needs a tad more work on my behalf to find out what is exactly that she likes.

Ken.

[BruceB]

Gents;

Well, I cleared all the cookies, the history, the temporary files....and I still can't access the Shiloh forums.

I sent them an e-mail, where I mentioned that I hoped I hadn't offended anybody (I KNOW I haven't) and asking them to see if anything's visibly wrong from their end.

Thanks for letting me know that the forum works for both of you. I'll let y'all know if anything happens on this.

[montana_charlie]

Gents;

Well, I cleared all the cookies, the history, the temporary files....and I still can't access the Shiloh forums.

I go there a couple of times every day.

Are you trying to reach the site by using a saved 'favorite'?
The file may be corrupted, and it's address is no longer correct...or no longer complete.

Try just clicking this link and see where you land...
http://shilohrifle.com/forums/index.php

CM

[wills]

http://shilohrifle.com/forums/

That one? It opened fine.

[Jon K]

Bruce,

Is your software, locking you out? (pop-up blockers)

If still having problems, I'd call Lucinda and inquire.

Jon

[BruceB]

Thanks, guys.

Using the link provided by y'all, I have no trouble getting into the Shiloh forums. Previously, I was going to the homepage and clicking on the "user forum" title in the options list.

My apologies for diverting this thread.

A couple of my pals have Shiloh rifles; one is a 45-90 and the other, I recently discovered, has a .45-110. They both report some difficulty in getting satisfactory results with smokeless powder, more-so with the .45-110 than the .45-90. In extensive reading, I 've found a lot of testimony to the unsuitability of the longer cases to smokeless, and that the 3.25" case is (naturally) the worst of the lot.

This is why my choice for the rebarrrel chambering fell on the .45-2.1" case. I'd become rather disenchanted with blackpowder, and wanted a maximum of flexibility for the re-incarnated rfle. Mind you, the .45-2.1 WILL work very nicely with black, too, especially since I'm happy with 1873 .45-70 ballistics. Typically, I now find myself flirting with the idea of using black again. I have at least ten pounds of the stuff cluttering up the place, and the best way to dispose of it is through a rifle muzzle....

[montana_charlie]

I'd become rather disenchanted with blackpowder, and wanted a maximum of flexibility for the re-incarnated rfle.
That is something I have never worked through in my thinking, but is a MOST EXCELLENT reason for a newcomer to BPCR to start with the 45/70.

After the initial flurry of excitement, I think quite a few find that 'disenchantment' has set in. It may be the main reason for so many rifles being advertised as 'has only been fired 20 times' (if that much)...after sitting in the safe for several years.

CM

P.S. Glad you got hooked back up with the Shiloh forum...

[northmn]

My experience with BPC includes two. A 50-90 and the 45-70. My 50-90 was built on too light a rifle and hurt to shoot. The 45-70 is really not so gentle either and in light rifles can get your attention as in the Marlin Cowboy lever. The bigger longer 45's really only give a significant advantage in BP shooting only. With duplex loads, phoney black and smokeless the 45-70 can really be made to snort without the extra expense of the bigger cartridges. Some itches need to be scratched to get something out of your system (like the 45-70 Cowboy I traded a real nice 38-55 for and really regret).

Northmn

[EDK]

I have a 13+ pound 50/90 Shiloh AND it's got a recoil reducer in the buttstock, installed at Shiloh. Bobw shoots a 10 pound 50/140 with 500 grain paper patch at the Quigley shoot...scares off the rattlesnakes and clears the dust off the firing line on his relay when that cannon bellows!

I've got a pair of 1895 Cowboys, but don't shoot black powder in them because of the cleaning issues. They are a little harder to strip down for cleaning than the Shiloh. Different guns for different purposes.

GETTING A STAND mentions buffalo hunters and 16 pound 50/90s. Other sources mention a hunter using a 10 pound 40 caliber and having to get medical attention from the recoil he absorbed.

I don't shoot in NRA silhouette, so I could care less about their weight restrictions. If you can shoot it off hand at Quigley, you're good to go on the relays using cross sticks. I may not score very high at the Q....4 out of 8 on the 800 yard buffalo was my best relay in 2008....but d--- few people have a better time than I do while I'm there.

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

All my life, when they said SHARPS, I though BIG 50

[catkiller45]

excellent reading.I have a 45-120 but have not really shot it a lot...I don't think the recoil is that severe..But the 45-70 is a lot nicer to shoot....John

[kevan]

I likely wouldn't have a 45-120 if it wasn't for my Dear Wife's wanting to go to an estate sale 7 or 8 years ago. During the course of looking at the stuff, the hostess said her late husband had a new old-looking rifle and that perked my interest.
It turned out to be a '74 Shiloh 45-3 1/4 LRE unfired. The lady mentioned that her late husband loaded some ammo and never got around to firing it.
She wouldn't take more than $ 750.00 for it because it had been a gift from an older brother-in -law also deceased and nobody wanted it because it was so ugly.
Needless to say , I took it and along with the rifle came loading dies, a big bag of brass and 20 loaded rounds....loaded with Hornady 500 gr. RN.
They were the last thing I'd ever dream of using in the big gun and I'm glad I didn't because after pulling all the bullets I found loaded with ahout 60 gr. of a 4350-type powder and the other 10 with about 70 gr. of some Black Powder.
I have no idea of when it was made...the receiver is stamped Big Timber and the barrel is marked C.Sharps. and it has a 4-digit serial #

As for shooting it I have a couple Brooks moulds made for me and a bunch of different 45-70 moulds ....seems to shoot several different bullets very well.
Recoil ?....no problem , the gun weighs over 13 lbs. :-D

[catkiller45]

sounds like you did well on the deal. I am using 2 f goex powder right now. after the holidays i am going to try some 1 f goex...i like the lyman 457125 round nose bullet...i am also going to try my hand at paper patching....have a good holiday...john

[BPCR Bill]

I've had a 45-2 7/8 Shiloh for 13 years now and I love it. The 45-120-3.25 is the basic case you will encounter, and most likely purchase to trim to 2.875" if you have the 110. That being said, and I'll re-hash Charlies take on this, is the 45-120 is of questionable origins lost in the mists of history. At least as far as I've been able to ascertain in Frank Sellers great book on the Sharps. The 110 was the longest case offered by the Christian Sharps company back in the day. My Shiloh with the #1 heavy barrel at 34" weighs in at 14.5 pounds, and I shoot it at long range matches exclusivley now. Not the best offhand rifle as stated before. Like Bruce, my first Shiloh was the 50-90-2.5", in the light Buisness rifle at 9.5 pounds, and I was younger and more macho. I sold it and never looked back to that caliber again. A few years back, a shooting acquantance in Montana showed up with a new Shiloh with the BIG barrel, a 16 pounder, in 50-90. He had ordered a Brooks 650 gr mould, and man did that rifle shoot SWEET! The weight really soaked up the recoil, and if I ever get the money together that's the deal for me. My shooting partner in Montana has an original '69 Sharps conversion in 45-2 7/8, and it has the original 16 pound barrel on it as well. He's taken moose with it, and I think an elk or 2. No telling the history of that rifle and how many Buffalo it took down in it's day! Some of you that frequent the Quigley have probably seen it on the line. The brass for the 45-110 probably won't be much cheaper than the basic 3.25" brass, but I have some better news for you. When I got my 110, the RCBS dies set me back $190 at the time. They're alot less expensive now! No matter how big a cartridge you want to go, just remember the weight factor and just how brutal these rifles can be. Shiloh does offer the 16 pound barrels for the big 50 and the big 45's, but they come at a price.

Regards,
Bill

[BPCR Bill]

I likely wouldn't have a 45-120 if it wasn't for my Dear Wife's wanting to go to an estate sale 7 or 8 years ago. During the course of looking at the stuff, the hostess said her late husband had a new old-looking rifle and that perked my interest.
It turned out to be a '74 Shiloh 45-3 1/4 LRE unfired. The lady mentioned that her late husband loaded some ammo and never got around to firing it.
She wouldn't take more than $ 750.00 for it because it had been a gift from an older brother-in -law also deceased and nobody wanted it because it was so ugly.
Needless to say , I took it and along with the rifle came loading dies, a big bag of brass and 20 loaded rounds....loaded with Hornady 500 gr. RN.
They were the last thing I'd ever dream of using in the big gun and I'm glad I didn't because after pulling all the bullets I found loaded with ahout 60 gr. of a 4350-type powder and the other 10 with about 70 gr. of some Black Powder.
I have no idea of when it was made...the receiver is stamped Big Timber and the barrel is marked C.Sharps. and it has a 4-digit serial #

As for shooting it I have a couple Brooks moulds made for me and a bunch of different 45-70 moulds ....seems to shoot several different bullets very well.
Recoil ?....no problem , the gun weighs over 13 lbs. :-D

C-Sharps is just down the road from Shiloh, but they make a fine rifle as well. That rifle probably has a Badger barrel on it, nothing to sniffle at. You got one SWEET deal!

Bill

[Kenny Wasserburger]

My 25 Lb Sharps in 45-110 aka the 2-7/8ths will be done some time late Jan or early Feb.

Wait to you see 3 of these monsters on the line at the Q! or perhaps come to the Mile match in MAY.

The Lunger

[kevan]

After buying the big rifle ( big for me ) I have to admit I was a bit skeptical because of having heard so much negative from " It'll kick you silly, to cost you a fortune to shoot, to the thing isn't historically correct "
The darn thing is a whole bunch of fun to play with .....I also have a Browning BPCR 45-70 with an MVA scope which I started shooting long range competitively and gave up when my shooting partner and mentor died suddenly.
We have a cabin on a lake 4 hours from home and that is where I play mostly with the BP rifles. At least a couple days a year in the fall I take the Shiloh out for a walk in the hills just in case I'll run across a nice Mulie or maybe a Moose.
So far the Shiloh has accounted for a 4 point buck and an unwary coyote...neither required a second shot.
After hiking for a day with a 13 lb rifle especially when one has a cabinet full of 7 lb "mountain rifles" I have to wonder if my 63 yr. old brain has taken a Time Out !!
As much as its fun to go quadding, theres nothing like lugging the the Big Boy for a day or two.....

[cajun shooter]

Bruse B, If you need to dispose of that old black powder that you have laying around, I can and will accept it. I will put it to good use and if you need some of it back, I will return any unused powder. Sounds like a good idea don't you think?

[BPCR Bill]

My 25 Lb Sharps in 45-110 aka the 2-7/8ths will be done some time late Jan or early Feb.

Wait to you see 3 of these monsters on the line at the Q! or perhaps come to the Mile match in MAY.

The Lunger

I am toying with the idea of having mine rebarreled at Shiloh, but the $750 price tag is what I paid for my first complete Shiloh rifle 20 years ago. Yer gonna need a draft horse to haul those rifles around the line.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Norma,

Also makes the 45 case in 2.90 inches this works best for the 2-7/8ths case and its cheaper then the 3.25 case.

Midway and Buffalo Arms sell this brass.

The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

BPCR Bill if you get a chance to make it to Kenny's shoot you won't be disappointed. His range is a good one, and the match is an excellent challenge.

You long cased shooters watch the bargain cave at Cabela's also, they sell the Norma stuff regular and once in awhile get it on sale in the bargain cave.