Lets talk about the .38/44

[Cattleman406]

So I'm a longtime listener and first time caller here. Ive been a reloader since my grandpa gave me a rifle when I was a teenager and taught me how to roll my own for it, so that gives me around a decade of experience in the field I suppose.
So I'm pretty low on .357 mag brass, but currently dont have a shortage of .38 spec. Ive got several thousand 38 plinkers sitting on the shelf and would like to use the remainder of my projectiles to make some (near) 357 strength rounds to be exclusively shot from a 357 pistol and rifle (i do not own a 38 special firearm.) I figured on doing this by replicating the classic Keith 38/44 load, utilizing the old standby 2400 and 158g LSWC.
The projectiles in question are SNS cast 158 LSWCs, with an advertised BH of 15-16. So here's my questions:
Being that you pretty well wont find data for the 38/44 load, ive been going off of forum posts, personal acquaintances and of course the Keith manuals. It seems to me that if I start at 11 grains of 2400, this should give me acceptable speed while keeping leading to a minimum and keeping pressures within reason. I may work it up from there, or i may not if im satisfied with it. Has anyone here had experience with this specific load? I suppose desperate times call for desperate measures here.

[kungfustyle]

You need to find someone with quickloads to guide you down the right path with this one. Lyman's 50th lists 8.3g as a max for the 38 special and 8.8 as a max at +p range. That's all that brass is designed to take. You may want to just pick up some 357 brass if you want more umph. http://gardnerscache.com/357_magnum.html great place to start. Good luck.

[Larry Gibson]

Many, many years ago there was a shortage of 357 brass also. As a budding LEO I also had a lot of 38 SPL cases so following the advise of Thompson, Skeeter and others I used 38/44 loads oin my BH and Colt Trooper. The 38 SPL cases had no problems with the psi's of those 38/44 level loads. No experience with that particular bullet. Have shot 38/44 loads in 38 SPL cases (mostly R-P & Winchester) for 50+ years with 160 gr 358156 and 150 gr 358477s. I have pressure tested the loads along with pressure testing 170 & 180 gr cast in 38 SPL cases over 2400.

Without knowing the seating depth of that bullet based on the pressure test results of the above I'd say 11 - 12 gr of 2400 will get you into the 26 - 28,000 psi range which is 38/44 range. As to "leading" that will depend on the lube used mostly since they are commercial cast bullets. If they lead giving them a light coat of LLA and letting it thoroughly dry before loading can, many times, eliminate the leading.

[rintinglen]

^Took the words right off my keyboard. My Smith and Wesson 27 got a steady diet of 358-156 boolits loaded out over 12 grains of 2400 or 6.0 grains of Unique back in the 70's. 38 special brass was free on the ground, while .357 was rare and costly. I have not loaded either load for a while, but if my 357 brass supply were to suddenly dry up, I'd be back at it with no qualms or worries.

[44MAG#1]

158 grain at 1125 FPS. Don't know the test barrel length.

[onelight]

Welcome to the forum !
The only caution I would offer would be to stick to good reloading practice and start at the bottom and work up keeping notes on performance to a load you are happy with in both guns I shoot a lot of commercial cast these days including SNS Hi-Tek coated and they can work well for light to medium power loads and reserve my own cast for heavier loads. A great thing to avoid is hundreds of cartridges loaded that lead or won't shoot well in both your guns . Light loads that shoot clean are a good time for me , 2 hours of barrel scrubbing after 30 minutes of shooting is not :)
Take your time and enjoy the process . Don't assume because those 38s are going in a .357 you can shortcut the process.

[MT Gianni]

I have a couple of older Lyman manuals with 38-44 loads. PM your phone number and I will text you a picture. Otherwise I think Lyman #38 is on the web somewhere as is #40.

[mdi]

I reloaded a lot of 38 Specials to lower 357 Magnum velocities as experiments, but only fired them in my 357 revolver. Mainly my curiosity and I sectioned a 38 case and a 357 case and saw no difference except for length. I started with 357 Magnum starting loads right out of my reloading manuals. Since I never ran my 357 near max. I stopped at mid level loads (taking into account the reduced case volume). No problems, no "Celebrity Loads", no reduction formula, just thinking about what I was doing and proceeding with care...

I don't post any specific load data, mainly because I ignore any I see on any forum or pet loads website, hear from any range rat, gun counter clerk, good intended friend or gun shop guru. Ninety-eight of my load data comes from published lab reports and just a few from powder manufacturer's web sites. This has worked for me for over 40 years (nope I ain't computer illiterate) and I have had one squib in 1970 and no Kabooms ever...

[Cattleman406]

OAL will be around 1.440" or so, seated into the crimp groove.

[El Bibliotecario]

I don't see any problem using the loads described in .357 revolvers.

The late Charles "Skeeter" Skelton wrote of loading the Lyman 358156 bullet in .38 Special cases with the bullet crimped in the lower groove, allowing more room in the case, and a charge of 13.5 grains 2400, cautioning that it was only for .357 revolvers or N frame 38 Specials. I used this load for years with no problem, so I don't see lesser charges of 2400 in 38 Special brass as an issue.

[gwpercle]

I don't see any problem using the loads described in .357 revolvers.

The late Charles "Skeeter" Skelton wrote of loading the Lyman 358156 bullet in .38 Special cases with the bullet crimped in the lower groove, allowing more room in the case, and a charge of 13.5 grains 2400, cautioning that it was only for .357 revolvers or N frame 38 Specials. I used this load for years with no problem, so I don't see lesser charges of 2400 in 38 Special brass as an issue.

13.5 grains of #2400 was also the published load by Elmer Keith in his book "Sixgun Cartridges & Loads" for the 38-44 Special with Lyman #358431 , SWC 160 gr. cast lead boolit , loaded in 38 special cases .

These loads predated the 357 Magnum and are referred to as 38-44 Special , both factory loads and hand loads as 38-44 Special .

In my opinion I would drop that charge (book written in 1936) to 13.0 grains #2400 , load them with the #358156 , 155 gr. SWC w/ gas check , seated in the Lower crimp groove (in 38 special brass) and shoot them only in 357 Magnum revolvers .
My Pet 38-44 Special Load , was taken from my brand new 1970 Speer Reloading Manual and may have been promoted by Skeeter Skelton was the above boolit and case , seated in the lower groove but with a charge of 7.5 grains of Unique ...
also regulated to shooting in 357 Magnum revolvers .

Finding free 357 Magnum brass was next to impossible back then ... so you used what you had.
Gary

[Outpost75]

The 13.5 grain "Skeeter" load is way too hot.

If you search Larry Gibson's earlier posts he has pressure-test data for .38-44 loads, and the 11 to 12-grain advice given in his post #3 above should be heeded!

[Cattleman406]

If i remember correctly, the formula for 2400 has been altered since then and 13.5 would be equivalent to around 12.5 now

[smkummer]

So almost 30 years of owning my first .357 magnum with more afterwards plus getting brass here and there, I have myself a good surplus of 357. Let me know if your interested in some.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Golleee, Cattleman406, it had to get down to Post #6 before someone welcomed you to the Forum. That Onelight is a nice guy. Let me add my welcome to his.

Otherwise, I can't add much to what's been said. I've got a very stout Colt Trooper Mk III that I shoot heavy .38 Spec. loads in that I wouldn't want to shoot in, say, my S&W Mod. 10. Have done it off and on for years without a problem. Usually, though, I use Unique.

[Taco Belly]

Hello all,

I've been shooting a SAECO #358 158 RNFP over 11.5 / 2400 in Starline cases for many years through a 3rd Gen Colt SAA. I get nothing but fantastic results...super accurate, and not too much recoil. The Colt shows zero excessive wear after 2k plus of this load...I seem to remember they run at about 1050-1100 ish FPS...

My 2 cents.

[Larry Gibson]

If i remember correctly, the formula for 2400 has been altered since then and 13.5 would be equivalent to around 12.5 now

Myth.....

[JM7.7x58]

I have loaded some of these “Hot Tamales”. They worked great in my .357 Mag revolvers. But I won’t be doing it anymore.

I have decided to not load my 38 special cases past +p levels. The reason why? One of my main shooting buddies has picked up two small framed 38sp revolvers. They are +p rated guns, not .38/44 rated guns. My teenage son shoots with us. You can tell a teen all day long that they shouldn’t do something. And they will do it anyway. So, no more “Hot Tamales” for me!

JM

[onelight]

I have loaded some of these “Hot Tamales”. They worked great in my .357 Mag revolvers. But I won’t be doing it anymore.

I have decided to not load my 38 special cases past +p levels. The reason why? One of my main shooting buddies has picked up two small framed 38sp revolvers. They are +p rated guns, not .38/44 rated guns. My teenage son shoots with us. You can tell a teen all day long that they shouldn’t do something. And they will do it anyway. So, no more “Hot Tamales” for me!

JM
I don't do it either I just don't need to. When I find a load I like I may 500 to a 1000 and put them in cans I have some stuff loaded 30 years ago I have 2 +p rated 38s , and I am another that does not want my kids or grandkids to put them in the wrong gun. My ammo is all labeled with powder and bullet and special instructions if there are any but I have plenty of 357 cases for hotter loads. And I don't have a 38 that would be rated for 38/44 so i don't do it just to keep life simple.

[beagle]

You're right on the money. I asked myself the same question years ago, researched the available data and added some to it. The article is listed as "High Speed .38 Special Loads" on Castpics. You might read that before you look around. I obtained all of the old bullet designs and duplicated the loads.
The .38 Special case in the .357 guns is one of the better all around calibers for small game hunting and general plinking and shooting that there is when loaded to its full potential. About all I use in the M1894 .357 Marlin./beagle

[Don Purcell]

11.5 of 2400 with 160 grain Keith hollowpoint goes 1150 average out of my transition model 38-44 Smith and Wesson Ourdoorsman with 6 1/2 barrel. Shoots great.

[ddixie884]

Yes, welcome to the forum. I will add my support for 11gr 2400 under 150 to 160gr bullet as a starting load for 38-44 type performance in strong guns. I have a Colt Shooting Master in .38spl. Since it is a very large and stout revolver I did some .38-44 load development for it. I started with 10gr with a machine cast 160gr swcbb and went up to 10.5 and then 11 and 11.5. These loads were all very moderate in a gun also made in .357. 12 and 12.5 were also not too bad. I had it in mind to go to 13.5gr but at 13gr I got very flattened primers. I was using Federal primers and they have a reputation for soft cups but I made a decision to not load over 12.5gr in heavy 38spl loads. Much good advice has been shared and you should search for Larry Gibson's pressure testing thread in "CB Loads your Favorite Cartridge" further down the Topics Page. be well and be safe........

[44MAG#1]

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[johniv]

Welcome aboard sir. If I remember right, Skeeter loaded his .38 cases with the 358156 Thomson boolit and crimped it in the lower crimp groove, givingmore space in the case. Anyhoo I tried to get to that level, shooting them in a stout .357, and chickened out at 12.5 gr. 2400. 13.5 gr. is WAY too hot IMHO.

[Cattleman406]

Thanks for the warm welcomes fellas.
I may add that I'm using Rem 1 1/2 SPPs as well.
I think im going to ladder up some loads between 11 and 12(.5?) grains and stop there if they don't get too hot on me before I hit that mark.

[Tim357]

Some chrono tests from several years back.
Ruger SP101, 3" bbl. S&W 686, 4" bbl. load.
970 avg. 994 avg. 6.0 Power Pistol, 158 Lee RNFP
888 avg. 912 avg. 10.0 2400, 158 Lee RNFP
1158 avg. 1219 avg. 12.5 2400, 158 Ideal 357446, seated to 2d groove
Note that according to Alliant, the 6.0 PP load is their +p book load, not 38/44 load

[Walks]

I shot 1,000's of both the #358156 "Skeeter" load and #358429 over a grain less of 2400. These days I go for lighter loads and put nothing in a .38Spl case but std velocity/pressure loads.
I worry that when my time comes to shuffle off this mortal coil, her worthless nephew will get a hold of my ammo and blow up one of my old Colt or S&W alloy frame revolvers.

[smkummer]

Mike Venturino published some 38-44 loads a few years ago in handloader magazine. I did fire some of those made with unique in my colt new service 38, with the power to weight feeling just perfect. Now that I am older and have several 38/357 chambered guns, I don’t do it either as when I pass, if a cartridge fits in a gun, good chance it will get fired in that gun, which could be an alloy colt agent.

[Outpost75]

Here is velocity data for vintage factory .38 Special and .357 loads and modern .38-44 handloads I tested:

Factory .38 Special +P and .357 Mag. Velocities and .38 Special (.38-44) Handloads

.357 Factory Loads Reference:____S&W Model 28 4” ”____Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”

.357 Mag. Super-X 158-gr.Lubaloy____1236, 8 Sd__________1307 fps, 36 Sd__1950s
.357 Mag. Rem-UMC 158-gr. SWC____1221 fps, 23 Sd______1287 fps, 27 Sd___1950s
.
38 Special Factory Loads Reference: S&W .38-44 HD 4”____Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”

Super-X 158-grain Metal Penetrating___939 fps, 9 Sd________1009 fps, 13 Sd___1950s
Old Super-X 158-grain LRN .38-44_____994 fps, 23 Sd_______1024 fps, 11 Sd__Large Primer 1930s
Winchester X38SPD 158-gr. LHP+P____909 fps, 16 Sd________936 fps, 16 Sd___1990s

“.38-44” Handloads Assembled in .38 Special brass, W-W cases, WSP primer:

_____________________________S&W .38-44 HD 4”____Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”
Saeco #348 146DEWC 8.9 grs.#2400___922 fps,12 Sd_______1005fps, 34 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 4.0 grs. Bullseye+P______871 fps, 5 Sd________902 fps, 14 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 5.5 grs. AutoComp+P____902 fps, 14 Sd_______947 fps, 11 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 11.5 IMR4227+P________914 fps, 22 Sd_______981 fps, 18 Sd
Acc. 36-190T 8.4 #2400+P___________888 fps, 21 Sd_______926 fps, 37 Sd

[cowboy4evr]

Guess I need to add my 2cts here . I have shot many many of the " skeeter load " , 13.5 grs of 2400 using the Lyman 358156 cast bullet crimped in the lower crimp groove loaded in 38 spl brass . I did NOT find it " too much " . Cases ejected easily , recoil was somewhat mild . I shot them for yrs out of a model 19 , 4" barrel . That 2400 has " changed " is nothing but BS . I called Alliant to get verification on this . Regards Paul

[MT Gianni]

Guess I need to add my 2cts here . I have shot many many of the " skeeter load " , 13.5 grs of 2400 using the Lyman 358156 cast bullet crimped in the lower crimp groove loaded in 38 spl brass . I did NOT find it " too much " . Cases ejected easily , recoil was somewhat mild . I shot them for yrs out of a model 19 , 4" barrel . That 2400 has " changed " is nothing but BS . I called Alliant to get verification on this . Regards Paul

Agreed that both you and Skeeter shot these out of 357's as do I. The 38-44 refers to 38's shot out of an N frame Smith, at the time the largest frame they made.

[rkrcpa]

I don't have the issue handy but I believe Brian Pearce did a Pet Loads article not too long ago on the .38-44. There was a lot of good info in that article for anyone wanting to load at those levels.

[Larry Gibson]

Welcome aboard sir. If I remember right, Skeeter loaded his .38 cases with the 358156 Thomson boolit and crimped it in the lower crimp groove, giving more space in the case. Anyhoo I tried to get to that level, shooting them in a stout .357, and chickened out at 12.5 gr. 2400. 13.5 gr. is WAY too hot IMHO.

Yes, Skeeter used his loads in 357 revolvers not 38 SPL revolvers. He developed the load with the 358156 seated out to and crimped in the lower crimp groove. This was back when 357 magnum cases were generally only available in loaded factory ammunition. The 357 magnum revolver [Colt, S&W, Ruger, etc.] were very popular and 38 SPL brass was readily available as the 38 SPL was "THE" LEO cartridge of the day.

[Cattleman406]

UPDATE:

I finally went out and tested my loads.
11.0 gr felt like a solid +P, no flattened primer.
11.2 was about the same.
11.5, produced similar to 357 recoil and primers were not flattened.
Could not tell a difference between 11.8 and 12. Both produced excessive recoil, flattened primers and leading. I think ill stick with 11.5 and keep them in a box marked clearly ".357 guns ONLY".
Also keep in mind I don't own a chronograph so I'm purely going off accuracy/flattened primers/recoil.

[Larry Gibson]

Recently tested data here for 38/44 to 357 magnum loads in 38 SPL cases;

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?415979-Skeeter%92s-357-magnum-load-358156-w-2400-in-38-SPL-Cases