alloy for .357 magnum, specific load

[40-82 hiker]

I have a Remlin 1894 CB .357 magnum rifle, and am now shooting 158 gr. J-words and am pleased with them (9.5 grs. Blue Dot). I want to cast 158 and 170 grain PB (not GC if at all possible) SWCs within the load range of 9.5 to 10.0 grains of Blue Dot. The little I can find is that it is in the 33,000psi range (not much I can find but one reference on this). All the lead I have now is COWW, plain Pb, and tin. Is the COWW plus 2% tin going to be hard enough for that pressure range? I am pretty sure my COWW alloy (with tin) is around 12 BNE. No idea of velocity with my current load in that rifle... Nothing I cast and shoot for is near the max velocity and pressure end, but this one will defy that tradition. By definition...

I have fired a thousand or so of the J-words in this rifle, but am itching to move on to real boolits (probably going to start with the 170gr.). So, I'm looking for alloy suggestions from those shooting within the parameters as I have outlined. Don't worry about fit, as I'll be making a chamber cast and barrel slugs. Just thinking of alloy at the present so I can put that together with size to determine dropped boolit size when I order the mold.

Thanks

[Outpost75]

Plain-based bullets in rifles of revolver caliber will perform best at black powder level velocities not exceeding about 1400 fps from the rifle and remaining subsonic (<1100 fps) in the revolvers. In the .38-44 (.38 Special+P), .357, .44-40, .44 Magnum Medium Velocity and .45 Colt I have standardized on 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals for both rifle and revolver loads, using the fast-burning pistol or shotgun powders such as Bullseye, TiteGroup, WST, 452AA, 231, HP38, etc.

In the .357 Magnum with 180-190 grain bullet similar to Accurate 36-185E or the Hunter's Supply 190-grain flatnose, a charge of 5 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup, 6 grains of WST, 452AA, 231 or HP38 is a good starting load which will be subsonic for use with a can.

If you prefer a Keith-style SWC Accurate 36-175H (my design) works well and actually drops about 185 grains from 1 to 30 alloy and performs well with the same charges:

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If you want a heavier load 12 grains of Alliant #2400 or 14 grains of IMR4227, H4227 or H110 is a good place to start, adjusting charges in 1 grain increments as accuracy indicates. Shoot for groups and put the chronograph away until you can shoot ten-shot, 3-inch groups at 100 yards from the rifle, and only then measure the velocity to know where the sweet spot is. Otherwise chasing velocity is a distraction. Trust me, the deer cannot tell the difference.

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[AlaskaMike]

If the bullets are sized correctly for the groove diameter, then plain COWW alloy with some added tin should work just fine. Good plan to do the chamber casts and especially slugging the barrel.

I use nothing but plain COWW alloy in my Rossi 92 loads, and have had very good success.

Mike

[40-82 hiker]

If the bullets are sized correctly for the groove diameter, then plain COWW alloy with some added tin should work just fine. Good plan to do the chamber casts and especially slugging the barrel.

I use nothing but plain COWW alloy in my Rossi 92 loads, and have had very good success.

Mike

Thanks. This is what I want to know. I have a lot of COWW on hand.

[40-82 hiker]

As far as shooting to a chronograph, I've never owned one. I have many life-long injuries (spine and pelvis included) that are limiting my choices of high power rifles for taking game and other future needs as I get older. I am comfortable with my current load in this rifle, and just want to segue this into shooting boolits with the same Blue Dot loads I am now shooting with J-words. Rather simple exercise... I don't have to look for powders that may or may not be on the shelves these days. I just thought this was a simple exercise, which I hope it truly is.

Thank for your responses.

[smkummer]

Remember that dropping a bullet of wheel weight alloy that normally casts air cooled about 12 Hardness jumps to 20 when it drops into a water bucket. My 1894C 357 made in the early 90’s still with micro groove rifling shoots Lyman’s 195 grain plain base wonderfully accurate unsized. If I size that bullet it looses some of its water quenched hardness and at 357 velocities, really opens up its group size in my micro groove. This may not be the case in your Ballard rifling Marlin.

[40-82 hiker]

I am actuallly very pleased with this rifle to date. It's late, but I thought I'd show some targets from my range session with this rifle yesterday. I must admit I've had a bit of a go trying to figure out a proper sitting hold for this rifle for the steadiest hold. It appears to be rather particular for such. But I have finally figured this one out (very happily so). I am accomplished with position shooting despite my handicaps, but really cannot use a bench. But still cannot shoot more than 10 rounds sitting without having to stand and "walk it off". I think this rifle does have something to offer.

I have not written the data on the targets yet, but here goes:
Fine tuning scope setting as I went to next target (3 targets were fired consecutively, left to right)
50 yards sitting
Speer 158 grain JHP
9.5 grains Blue Dot
WSP

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[40-82 hiker]

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Outpost,

I like the looks of this boolit. I might lighten it to around 170 -175 grs. Fodder to think about. I'll have to check this out when I get my chamber cast made, with the throat dimensions in particular. I have a number of Tom's molds.

I don't shoot at 100 yards anymore as it is hard on me to get to that berm on some days, but I think I'm pretty much holding my own with this Remlin at 50 yards sitting. I might see what those loads can do one day from the bench, but it will leave me with little else after a few groups. The group on the right in the post above measures 1.24" C to C. I'm happy enough right now, but still work to do to move this to boolits from the J-words, hopefully with the same accuracy potential.

Thanks,
Bob

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

A specific answer to your specific question.

If I were loading a cast boolit in 357 Mag to the 33,000psi range, and only had COWW, I would Heat treat the boolits after casting, to a target of 18Bhn. That can be calculated by Oven temp, time in oven, and water temp. Smkummer mentioned water drop, I don't do that, because my casting setup isn't really conducive to it, plus I believe you get much better uniformity from Heat treating in a Oven...but maybe the consistency you get with water dropping is adequate for your application.

[dverna]

I am cheap and do not like to use gas checks. Almost all my shooting is with reduced loads in .357 so I purchased PB molds. But, just in case I ever wanted to "go for the guesto", I purchased a PB gas check maker. It is an option. I have not used it, but others have reported decent success with it.

[fecmech]

Shooting the Lyman 358429 (Keith SWC) bullet out of my Win94 .357 over 9.5 Blue Dot I got 1425FPS. Bullet was water dropped WW+2%sn and weighed 173 grs. My notes show 1 5/8" 10 shot group@50yds. Load was pretty much 3-4 moa @100yds and I could ring my 12"X12" 200yd swinger all day long off the bench. If you lube and size immediately after casting it will be much easier and hardness will get better after a day or two. If you can't size immediately put the bullets in the freezer till you can, that slows the hardening process considerably and is much easier on you and your sizer.

[bluejay75]

Look at the 185 grain Larsen. Behind 15 grains H110 and a SRP it is a MOA load. You may get a flier from time to time but it is close to ragged hole accuracy at 100 yards.

As far as Jacketed, look at the Hornady 158 FP XTP. At rifle velocities almost every other bullet at rifle velocities is too brittle. 18 grains of H110 will get you near 1800 FPS and 1.5 inches at 100 yards.

YMMV

[bluejay75]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?361488-CLOSED-Mihec-358-180-Larsen-PB-GC-180-gr-358-or-360-Solid-Only

This one.

[Ledhead]

No experience in .357 but I've ran a 265gr plain base boolit upto 1700fps out of my marlin .44 mag. 100 Yard groups just started tightening up before I got flowing brass unfortunately. 50 Yard groups were very good but the slow twist wasn't stabilizing the boolit much past that. My target practice allow was COWW+ whatever tin I needed for fill out. I also PC my boolits.

[40-82 hiker]

A specific answer to your specific question.

If I were loading a cast boolit in 357 Mag to the 33,000psi range, and only had COWW, I would Heat treat the boolits after casting, to a target of 18Bhn. That can be calculated by Oven temp, time in oven, and water temp. Smkummer mentioned water drop, I don't do that, because my casting setup isn't really conducive to it, plus I believe you get much better uniformity from Heat treating in a Oven...but maybe the consistency you get with water dropping is adequate for your application.

If 18Bhn should be my goal, I can get some alloy to mix with my COWW to get there as well. I am certain I can't get over 12 without doing something different than I am now. I'll have to look for some linotype or whatever I'll need. Any suggestion on that?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

If 18Bhn should be my goal, I can get some alloy to mix with my COWW to get there as well. I am certain I can't get over 12 without doing something different than I am now. I'll have to look for some linotype or whatever I'll need. Any suggestion on that?

My suggestion?
Get what you can, blend it so you have about 7.5% Antimony.
But I'd still lean toward Heat Treating the COWW (without adding Tin).

[40-82 hiker]

My suggestion?
Get what you can, blend it so you have about 7.5% Antimony.
But I'd still lean toward Heat Treating the COWW (without adding Tin).

Well, I'll just have to figure out the heat treat process then. Nothing like good advice!

Thanks to all for the help.

[downzero]

I'd powdercoat them and blast them to the moon. My usual alloy is half stick on and half clip on wheel weights for everything from cowboy to H110 loads.

[popper]

7.5% Antimony WAY too much. 4% max. If lubing, just drop into a pail of cold water from the mould. Tend to splash so put part of a towel over the bucket (slightly in the water, so they roll off the towel into the water.) and get splatter drops on the mould. I'd try WD COWW first.

[gwpercle]

The 357 magnum is the one load I don't have a problem using gas checks .
I'm a "thrifty" person myself but a few articles by Skeeter Skelton on the 357 magnum , lead boolits and gas checks convinced me they just might be worth the added expense especially in rifle loads .
They just seemed to add more flexibility in what boolits , alloy , velocity and boolit hardness could be used .
I think old Skeeter might have been on to something with GC & the 357 mag. boolit.
I wanted to try a gas checked 124 grain truncated cone in 9mm Luger loads so I ordered
NOE's 358-124-TC-GC moulld... not only does it work great in 9mm Luger it works like a charm in 38 Special +P and 357 Magnum loads w/ air cooled , 50/50 COWW & soft lead alloy , Lithi-Bee lube ... no leading at magnum velocities !
My advice ... don't fear the gas check ... try them out !
Gary