Stand up or dump

[historicfirearms]

I have an order of powder coming from Smoke to do my first batch of PC. I have read through almost all the stickies to learn all I can before trying this. Smoke was also very helpful with some questions that I had. One thing that I am not sure about is, do I need to stand up all the boolits for baking or can I just dump them on a tray? If I dump them, do they have to be spread out so they aren't touching? My first batch will be 9mm pistol boolits if it makes a difference.

[Gunslinger1911]

I have read here of people having good luck with dumping, me-not so much.

I stand em up; 22 thru 500 Smith. Boy those little 22's are a pain !

I can get a tray ready to go in less time than it takes to bake, so it's not a big deal.

[gpidaho]

A lot of folks just dump them on a wire mesh and bake. I haven't heard of any one saying it's been a problem for them and I believe that would work (at least for pistol bullets) I'm just too OCD for that and always stand the bullets on a silicone baking mat or set in one of the honeycomb silicone pot holders (great for the 22 and 25cal. little pills). To my thinking if the PC'd bullets are laying on their side the coating will be thin on top and thick on the bottom. This, to me would throw the bullet out of round not to mention the marks left by the wire. Sizing may well take care of all this. Guess it's all up to what works best for you and how much of a hurry you are to get the job done. Gp

[Conditor22]

"Dumping" works great BUT only with certain powders and only IF you sift and tap OFF ALL the excess powder.

Some powders will stick like the dickens to each other.

For guaranteed best results spray or stand up the boolits to bake.

Make sure your boolits stay clean after you cast (don't quench until after you PC IF you feel you need to)
Make sure your oven is actually hitting the temperature you set it to, put an oven thermometer on the baking shelf and adjust the temperature until the thermometer reaches 400° (this will change with any change in the surrounding temperatures)

with ASBBDT, Clear PC goes on the best, light colors and translucent colors don't cover well with one coat, flat colors also don't cover well.

I haven't used smokes powders for a while now so can't help you with which work with the dump method, maybe smoke or others will chime in,

[charlie b]

There are several threads about this already. It is up to you which one you do.

[GregLaROCHE]

I drop most of my Boolits into CLEAN water and haven’t has any problems PCing them. I let them dry on a clean towel and when in a hurry have heated them in the oven. I avoid touching them with my fingers as well as anything that could get oil or grease on them.

I always stand up my 45 cal boolits. My 6.5mm were too hard for me to stand up successfully, so I tumble them with Alox. It seems to me, that if they are laying on their side, there will always be an imperfection where the touch. Will that cause leading or reduce accuracy? I don’t know, but a lot of people are doing it, so it must work for them.

[Dukeconnor]

I'm a dumper. if i get any that stick i just drop them on the garage floor and the come apart.

[bmortell]

im OCD and value quality/appearance more than quantity so i stand everything. even 220gr 30 cal gas check shank that requires steady hand to not tip. i reach in the bowl with scissors to grab one, tap scissors on the edge of the bowl and set it standing up on the the bake sheet. probably for a new person you should start like that and confirm you can make good ones before trying a bulk production method.

[Rcmaveric]

I prefer to stand them if I can. But if I am forced to dump like my 6.5m bullets and .270 bullets. I just try and scatter them so they don't touch. Works well for me.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

[Tonerboy]

Standing prevents imperfections on the sides of the bullets. Doesn't take much effort, and really not that much additional time. I do a couple hundred 9's at a time. Not super high production, but with a limited number of primers currently available, a couple hundred at a time is plenty.

[PJEagle]

Standing up works best for me. For 9MM, 38 Special and 357 I use large tweezers to remove the bullets from the plastic tub and place them nose down in the white plastic trays that come with 50 round boxes of 38 special ammo. Then I place the baking tray on top of the tray of bullets and turn it over. Since I am old and shake a lot, I wait until just before placing the tray in the toaster oven before removing the plastic ammo tray. That way I don't dump the tray of bullets all over the place on the way to the oven. Don't ask me how I know, but you need to remove the plastic tray before closing the oven door when baking a batch.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I dump. They come out pretty dang good and most of the small imperfections get ironed out during sizing. I'm using an ebay clear PC and they barely stick all. I do shake them vigorously to remove excess powder.

I certainly wouldn't stand up 9mm boolits. My rifles easily do 1.5-2 MOA with dumped boolits. If I was chasing sub moa I might try standing them up, but I'm not.

[GregLaROCHE]

I prefer to stand them if I can. But if I am forced to dump like my 6.5m bullets and .270 bullets. I just try and scatter them so they don't touch. Works well for me.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

Don’t you get significant imperfections at the spot that a little excess of melted powder meets where the boolit touches? Even lead showing sometimes?

[redhawk0]

First off....I don't PC anything smaller than 30 cal. I use the silicon 160 ice cube trays for 30-35 caliber tall boolits...and just stand up 35(pistol) and above calibers on their bases. I tried the dump method once...but I wasn't satisficed with the outcome.

redhawk

[Taterhead]

I definitely stand them. I haven't been satisfied with the dump method.

[mattw]

Standing up is the only way I go. If you take the time to make the best bullet you can, why would you introduce surface variances in your coating by laying them down. It is a PITA with 22's and long heavy 30's. The 30's always want to fall over. I get a couple of hundred to a tray with big 30's when the fall... think dominos!

[Idz]

the basket method is so easy I just give everything a second coat

[Mjdd23]

I stand all my boolits up. I takes more time but they look better. I have dumped several batches of hand gun boolits and they shot the same but didn't looks good! If I needed high volume I would probably dump them. Try it both ways and see which you prefer.
Mark

[DHDeal]

I don't cast what some consider high volume and will cull any obvious imperfections as I cast. With that theme in mind I stand them up when PCing. I've got my own system in use and it's not particularly slow. The little 32's can be a minor pain as they can slip through the cooling rack I pour the bullets on to separate the powder/BB's/bullets. The larger stuff is easy.

I'm about to go outside and cast now. A little cold (27°) but the heat from the burner and pot will keep me warm until the sun gets started. Big one's and little one's today (MP Ruger Only 45 and MP 314-640 HP's).

[Huskerguy]

I have tried both ways. The dump method worked fine, a few spots where they contacted wire.

Mostly I stand up. My "theory" is the paint flows when it gets warm. I want it to flow down the standing bullet and not to the side. Not that I could ever tell if it made a difference in accuracy. I am also bit picky. ;)

[johnho]

I don't PC rifle bullets but only some pistol ones. I tried standing them up and it was too time consuming so tried dumping them. much faster. I spread them out a bit so none are on top of another. Sure there is a very tiny spot sometimes. I shoot them at 20 yards or less and don't see any difference in accuracy, who would at 20 yards handheld anyway?

[Budzilla 19]

Stand up the rifle, use a grid rack,dump the pistol except for the 310 grains .44 caliber slugs, they will stand on their own!!!!! Just me though.

[AndyC]

I stand my rifle boolits and dump the handgun; I'm not standing up hundreds of 9mm/45s and they don't have to win any beauty contests either.

[Old School Big Bore]

I'm a couple pages from finishing the big 138 page primary PC thread. So far all I have is HF matte black powder (tried mixing HF white with it to extend them but yecch). I have tried wet shaking in an old smokeless powder jug and dry vibratumbling with Airsoft BBs; I have no ES gun yet. When I tried dumping with the wet method, I got an inseparable clump; it broke apart but the boolits looked horrid. When I stood the wet up, I got fins of PC around the bases. The best results I have obtained were with dry ASBB tumbling, using nitrile gloves to stand them on the silicone, BUT when I tried preheating the boolits to get the powder to stick better, the powder in the tumbler immediately glommed onto the boolits and the boolits to each other, so that was 100 slugs I had to remelt. Luckily I had to make some alloy anyway, so they went in with the wheelweight and pewter ingots.
Just FYI, I am sizing pre- and post- PC for the reasons given by Beagle - why stress the PC when you have to size an oversize boolit several thousandths to start with, when you can hit your goal or slimmer OD first, and then only have the stress of squeezing the PC a thousandth or two? At first I sprayed a little One Shot pre-PC and rinsed it off with acetone, and sprayed the PCd boolits again before the post-sizing, but have decided to skip that step as unneccesary. Also, I have tried single and double coats, and with the dry BB vibratumble, one coat seems to give good enough coverage.
Cool tip for dry method: the same small-mesh disposable grilling screens (BBQ section of the supermarket) that I originally bought for draining the wet ones, works SUPER for straining the BBs out of the dry ones as well. A little agitation puts the powder and BBs right through into the pan I use for recovery. I was also gonna use that mesh for lining the baking tray but it just made too nasty of an imprint on the wet ones while draining & drying them, so I didn't want the dry method boolits sticking to the mesh when the PC melted. Next step, get some higher quality powder from Smoke if he's still selling it. I still have 14 pages to read so IDK what everyone's current status is yet. Good luck with your PCing.
Ed <><

[downzero]

I dump. I would have to touch them or use tweezers to stand them up, and that just takes the powder off anyway. If I wanted them to win a beauty contest, I'd coat them twice--both times by the "dump" method. I do shake the screen to spread them out, though.

[swheeler]

I used to stand them up, pistol and rifle, now I just dump the pistol and still stand the rifle.

[Petander]

I tried to stand these up for hours and eventually gave up. Just too much work.

Dumped and baked on a mesh,only a couple got stuck.

https://i.postimg.cc/W3hWYc16/IMG-20201211-164643-836.jpg

[Budzilla 19]

Petander, good one!!! I have some fresh cast buckshot, and I am going to try some pc .

[JM7.7x58]

I’ve been using clear PC. I Dump onto a wire basket. Single layer. Water drop. Blemishes don’t affect accuracy. With clear PC you can’t see blemishes easily unless you inspect closely.

People I respect have done accuracy tests. Dumped vs Stood up. They can’t tell a difference.

Blemishes don’t bother me when I cannot see them. That’s why I use clear PC.

JM

[clum553946]

I dump bullets for practice ammo, stand up for match ammo for pistol.

[dverna]

I do not PC but offer some advice anyway.

Like most of these discussions, there is too little information being offered by people wanting to help you out. What they do ONLY matters if it applies to your needs. But here is my "take'

9mm pistols bullets are rarely used for high accuracy applications. Standing them up makes no sense. If you are shooting 200 a month, the time "wasted' does not matter. If you shoot 1000 a month, and this is a "chore", it does matter.

There are enough guys dumping them and getting serviceable bullets that I would dump 9mm and see how they work. Why dink around and get anal about it. Try 200 and see for yourself. The risk is low and the ease of getting the job done is high. Plus you are using a good powder (Smoke has great reviews), so that is working for you.

If "pretty" matters, stand them up to get the best looking bullets.

I am a KISS person...pretty is low on my list of needs...at least with bullets.

[fredj338]

I dump. I would have to touch them or use tweezers to stand them up, and that just takes the powder off anyway. If I wanted them to win a beauty contest, I'd coat them twice--both times by the "dump" method. I do shake the screen to spread them out, though.

It actually doesnt remove powder. The powder flows as it becomes liquid. Any small bare spot will cover up. I stand mine up, dont care for them sticking together, it does often put a flaw where I dont want it. I use plastic cartridge box jig, drop the bullets in nose first using large tweezers like chop sticks. I can fill a 150rd tray in 9-10min. I fill trays while I bake so not much down time.

[William Yanda]

Read the thread. Best tip I have gathered so far is to use a plastic insert from a cartridge box to stand up bullets. May give the best of both worlds, simple with good looking results.
I am more of a KISS guy than a perfectionist. Does it work? is the major question.

[Dragonheart]

If you are first starting out, you have already made a smart move by getting a powder from Smoke that we know will work, so if there is a problem it is not the powder. Now why not keep being smart and do what we know will give you the best bullets you are going to get and that is stand the bullets up, preferably on a silicon mat. As long as you have non-contaminated bullets, get a good even coating, tap off any excess and cure properly you should have bullets about as good as it gets. After that if you want to accept lesser quality it is up to you.

[bearhawk]

I’ve been using clear PC. I Dump onto a wire basket. Single layer. Water drop. Blemishes don’t affect accuracy. With clear PC you can’t see blemishes easily unless you inspect closely.

People I respect have done accuracy tests. Dumped vs Stood up. They can’t tell a difference.

Blemishes don’t bother me when I cannot see them. That’s why I use clear PC.

JM

I'm the newest PC'er probably today. Yesterday was Christmas and I got the stuff to PC so I did some yesterday afternoon and this morning (over 2k rounds). I did both dump and the standup routine. These were all with .40 170gr pistol boolits.

I found with the PBTP Super Durable High Gloss Clear I can lump and dump large batches (as in a few layers thick). As JM stated you can't see the imperfections. The bad of this powder I have is it acts like glue for me gluing lots of boolits together. I found if I put the cooled boolits into a 5 gallon bucket and shake it up and down that all the other loose boolits break apart the stuck ones. Of several hundred in the bucket I only had 2 stuck after shaking.

Using PBTP Super Durable Wet Black, standing them up produces a nicer looking product. I did do both with this powder. What I did find slick though was I also tried the Elvis low temp method with a water quench and my powders did not like that. I could still scratch off the PC with my nail if I tried a little. The hammer smash test failed. I then stood up the boolits on silicone sheets and recooked them at the 400F for 20 minutes and they were fine. The good about trying this is standing them up after the low temp was so easy with no gloves as the powder was stuck enough to handle no problem. If you are a stander-upper this method is clean as you just lump and dump at 250F for 12 minutes, water quench, then do the stand up routine.

All this advice is what you paid for from a 24 hour old Powder Coater. :)

Bearhawk

[Conditor22]

As far as I know, Elvis isn't a chemical engineer! Don't get me wrong, he does come up with some good ideas, but as you found not following the manufacturers' instructions can get you in trouble.

Not all powders work well in the dump and bake method, none work well IF you don't remove all the excess PC before you dump and bake.

[blikseme300]

I’ve been using clear PC. I Dump onto a wire basket. Single layer. Water drop. Blemishes don’t affect accuracy. With clear PC you can’t see blemishes easily unless you inspect closely.

People I respect have done accuracy tests. Dumped vs Stood up. They can’t tell a difference.

Blemishes don’t bother me when I cannot see them. That’s why I use clear PC.

JM

I can tell the difference when used in HV rifle at ranges beyond 200 yards. I sort my CB's prior to coating and stand them up for baking after coating using an ESPC gun. YMMV but I spend the additional seconds to ensure the best possible projectiles for my rifle loads.

[mike4045]

I have just done the dumping method for my pc bullets, for the shooting I am doing with them( pistol practice) I have not seen any accuracy issues to speak of.

[Petander]

I stand up PC...

https://i.postimg.cc/1znNLLk6/IMG-20201231-004839.jpg

... and dump Hi Tek. Hi Tek bullets never stick to each other,the whole system is designed for large amounts of bullets being dumped.

https://i.postimg.cc/28rhV9WR/IMG-20201231-015514-184.jpg

[Ky-Dave]

I’m just now getting into casting and the PC stuff. I called over to PBTP today and asked them about the differences in all their formulations. The guy advised me that for my purposes (shake and bake) I should look for colors in the RAL line. Is that just common knowledge here? I think I’ll place an order soon.
David

[Dragonheart]

I’m just now getting into casting and the PC stuff. I called over to PBTP today and asked them about the differences in all their formulations. The guy advised me that for my purposes (shake and bake) I should look for colors in the RAL line. Is that just common knowledge here? I think I’ll place an order soon.
David

i don't know if it is common knowledge, but solid tone high gloss colors work the best. All powders will spray, but not all powders will tumble coat.

[oley55]

I’m just now getting into casting and the PC stuff. I called over to PBTP today and asked them about the differences in all their formulations. The guy advised me that for my purposes (shake and bake) I should look for colors in the RAL line. Is that just common knowledge here? I think I’ll place an order soon.
David

I went to : http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?257663-Commonly-used-Acronyms-in-Boolit-Coatings in an effort to decipher the acronyms used but didn't help.

I got that PBTP is an abbreviation for Powder by the Pound, but no idea what the RAL line is.

Thanks in advance from a retired Air Traffic Controller with 35 years of AAN (acronym ad nauseam).

[slide]

RAL is a matching system to make sure that colors are standardized. It is abbreviated from German, Reichs- Ausschub fur Lieferbedingungen und gutesicherung

[Dragonheart]

If you are looking for information about powders I know of no better place to go than Prismatic Powder online. Select a powder any type or color or both then check out the "Application Guide" available for each powder. I personally look for a hardness of 2H or better in a solid color if I want to tumble single coat, which is most of the time. I do a "Partial Cure" on rifle bullets and double coat. A polyurethane powder is typically going to be a hard powder, but most are a transparent top coat meaning they are a second coat powder, and not intended as a single coat.

When I got into PC in 2012 I knew nothing about PC other than the basics of how it was applied. After visiting with several applicators and a PhD Polymer Physicist, all of which who knew just about everything about the PC process, other than coating bullets, but they gave me their best guesses. The applicators all recommend I start with Prismatic powder. I got a lot of help from the Techs at Prismatic, also who knew nothing about coating bullets or tumble coating, but recommended I start with their solid colors.

It's not surprising about the PC knowledge base back then, even for a PhD when you think about it, as I am asking them what will withstand being pushed down a barrel at 3000+ FPS under 50,000 pounds of pressure and survive intact! My question was a long way from what's best to coat lawn furniture. Since I have since found their best guesses and calculations turned out to be absolutely correct.

I most definitely recommend Prismatic Powder if you know what you want or want to experiment. However, I still recommend starting off with Smoke's Powder for those first getting into this. Smoke's Powders have been tried and proven to work and that is what you need to begin with until you have be basics down.

[Baltimoreed]

I stand mine up. It’s tedious but works.

[Jim22]

If you stand them up do you stand them on their bases? Seems like base imperfections are worse for accuracy than nose flaws. Some use wire mesh and some use silicone trays. I can envision different base flaws with one over the other.

[Dragonheart]

Base imperfections are indeed worse for accuracy as a bullet is steered by the base. Unless you have a nose pour design mold the sprew cut is an imperfection on the base. With standing bullets, gravity helps the powder flowing under the base to fill in some of the imperfections. When a bullet is cooked in the dump method, gravity is still at work, like water runs downhill.

[charlie b]

So, I tried a bunch cooked on their sides along with the ones I cooked standing. These are Acc 31-210E bullets that I fire in my .308Win. 'Normal' accuracy for these bullets is around MOA out to 400yd. These were tested at 100 and 200yd.

Here is pic of several with one that was cooked on the base. These are after nose and body sizing. You can see there is a small amount of difference between them, probably based on the thickness of the coating. You can feel the ridge with your fingers, except at the base. Around the gas check I could only feel a rough spot on one of them.

Note on the base cooked one (upper left) you can see that the PC did not flow around the base of the GC. I wipe the bases off on a paper towel before standing them (and yes, I did the same for the ones cooked on the side).

276916

Accuracy. These were all fired at 1800fps. Basically at 100 and 200 yd I could not tell the difference in accuracy between the two. They were all less than 1.5MOA. This will be the end of my testing. I will still stand them since I just like cooking them that way. But, if you aren't after bench rest accuracy, or longer ranges, then I don't see any hard and fast reason to stand them up.

[AndyC]

Thank you, Charlie - that was something I'd been wondering about.