Advice/Experience with Colt SAA/SAA Derivatives?

[VariableRecall]

I know this is kind of silly coming from a new gun owner that's had a great experience with my Model 10, and wouldn't trade it for anything. However, after some reading through more of Elmer Keith's "Sixguns", I've been doing some research on the wide variety of Single Action Army derivations, as well as a little on the real deal, and think I may get one in the future.

I think the least I can do is try a friend's SAA derivative, which would be the most reasonable action to do before dumping cash into a beaut.

In terms of looks and make and model, I think the style that best fits my aesthetic and "wheelygun cool" looks is a 4.5 to 5.5 Inch barreled model (prefer 5.5) with their standard (Not Bisley) Grips in the classic caliber of .45 Colt. I'm partial to its standard sight, but target sights would be fairly welcome as well.

In terms of finish, I'd be OK with a case hardened or blued finish. Stainless would be nice if I could get it for the same price as a blued model. However, I'm not sure about any additional procedures needed to care for them. There's no need for any engravings or fancy stuff on the piece. I'd be looking for something in a mostly classic feel to it, without being showy.

I've had a detailed look at Ruger and Uberti's websites, and i've got a list of models that I find pleasing.

From Uberti's Websites, I'm liking, all 5.5 inch:
Chisholm, Hombre, El Patrón (Blued Model).

From Ruger:
Ruger Vaquero, Ruger New Vaquero, Ruger Blackhawk Convertible.

I haven't really looked into Cimarron or Colt, but I probably will in the future.

I'd love to hear of your takes on your Colt SAA/variant experience. Are there any manufacturers to avoid? I'm looking to get something that can reliably fire modern .45 Colt with no trouble. That is, if I ever get one. Perhaps I could get one from an owner that needs a little extra vault space as long as they have taken good care of it and it fits my wants.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Model 10 was a GREAT choice. A very iconic piece. A very good shooter. Totally useable. Nothing but but good to say there.

Concerning Colt SAA please, PLEASE, PPPLLLLLEEEEAAASSSE!
NEVER lower the hammer BEFORE going to full cock!
Many a nice Colt has had the resulting idiot ring scratched on the cylinder by an unsuspecting handler.
The Colt design drops the bolt (thing that holds the cylinder locked straight with the bore) out of the cylinder notch when the hammer is pulled to half cock. That unlocks the cylinder so you can turn it for loading/unloading. Once loaded or unloaded, the hammer MUST be pulled to full cock (all the way rearward). Then a cautious grasp of the hammer with the thumb, pointed in safe direction, hold the hammer back with thumb and pull the trigger. The hammer is under control of the thumb. While the trigger is held back (pulled and held) the thumb guides the hammer slowly, controlled, to gently rest against the frame.

Doing this, the bolt will not be in contact with the cylinder as it turns and will not leave the drag mark. The bolt will pop up exactly in the notch lead-in as the cylinder lines up with the bore.

The loading gate can be opened or closed at any time.

Lowering the hammer with your thumb is slightly risky. You can lose control of the hammer and let it drop with enough force to fire if there’s a cartridge in that chamber. So, always lower the hammer over an empty chamber. The easy way to load is the so called John Wayne method. Load one, skip one, load four, shut the door, cock and drop (the hammer, slowly).

The Colt clones work the same way. So do the early Rugers (called Old Models now days after the New Models came to market). Ruger brought out the New Models (Blackhawk and all the other single actions) in 1973 after being sued.

The New Models drop the bolt and release the cylinder by opening the loading gate and the hammer remains at rest.

The Colt SAAs, clones and Old Model Rugers allowed the hammer/firing pin to rest directly on the primer of a round under the hammer. So any knock or bump on the hammer (like dropping it on the floor) could fire the round. That’s why you always carry them hammer down on an empty chamber. Totally safe that way. Yes it makes them 5-shooters. It’s worked fine since 1873, except in Hollywood.

Other revolvers like the New Model Rugers, all the double actions Smiths and such have actions that let the bolt drag against the cylinder while it rotates. Consequently these all wear drags lines on their cylinders. The Colt was a bit more refined in their action. It’s common to see hundred year old Colt SAAs with heavy carry wear and no turn line on the cylinder. As it should be. Turn lines on Colts lower their value...a lot. So if you pull a Colt hammer from rest, take it to full cock BEFORE lowering the hammer.

Yes get one.
Get

[ReloaderFred]

You might look at the Great Western II's from EMF. They're made by Pietta, and are solid reproductions of the Colt SAA. My wife owns four of them, and shoots her two main guns in monthly SASS matches, plus big matches all over the west. She's put many thousands of rounds through her two main guns, without a hitch over the past 13 years of shooting SASS matches.

I shoot Ruger Blackhawks, all New models, and I have no idea how many rounds have been fired through my two main guns, since I bought them used, but in over 15 years of shooting SASS, they've never failed me once.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[onelight]

It depends on what is most important you . To me the the traditional Colt SA is one of the best looking factory six shooters of all time the color case hardened frame and blued cylinder and barrel and grip frame and one piece grips . But I have Ruger stainless in all my SA except for a blued bear cat & single six 22. I like stainless for what I will shoot a lot and keep because it I easy to take off any sharp edges I find uncomfortable and if it gets ratty looking it's mat finish is easy to fix on my bench. I also want adjustable sights so I can adjust for any load (with in reason ) that is my passion at the time. Also the stainless adjustable sight models have front sights that take a minimum amount of skill to replace and don't require refinishing the gun to do it should you find the need to do it.
You will get a lot of suggestions cause we all have reasons for what we like.
The good news is you have several good choices :) you may need to get more than 1

[shooting on a shoestring]

Get a Colt if you can afford it. They are the real deal that everyone copies.

There are 3 generations of the Clot SAA. 1st gen runs from 1873 to WWII. Colt didn’t bring back production after the war bc they didn’t see a demand for the single action when double actions were widely accepted. Well, until Hollywood cranked out Westerns and Bill Ruger started making single actions to fill the demand for “Cowboy” guns. Colt brought back production in 1956. These were the 2nd generation. These ran into the early 70’s when Colt made a couple of minor changes (barrel threads, cylinder bearing). That was the start of the 3rd generation which is still going albeit going slowly. They don’t make many.

The clones have a pecking order.
The 1970’s Italian clones Pietta, Uberti EMF etc... were decent. Still a good value.
Uberti in particular has made progress and new production this century are very good.
USFA is alleged to have bought the old Colt factory machines and made revolver very nearly identical to Colts with a few Uberti parts. USFA only produced a few years. They were generally better quality than the average Colt. They were expensive and now they are gaining collectors value. They are truly great shooters.

Standard Manufacturing is now making a clone. It’s a very high quality, highly finished piece.

The new clones often shoot better than the Colts. This is due to the dimensions of the chamber throats, gap, barrel groove diameters. They also have great modern metallurgy.

Colts have had some varying quality at various times.
But, Colt is the original and they have the panache, collector value and the new ones are generally really good shooters. However it’s typical of Colt chamber throats to run on the large side. That gives problems if the shooter doesn’t cast and load boolits fit to the large chamber throats. I’ve seen Colt SAA’s in 45 Colt with throats 0.456” and barrel groove diameters 0.452. They shoot great with boolits sized 0.456”. They lead badly with commercial boolits sized 0.452”.

[leadeye]

It's always good to have at least one 1st generation Colt, after that you can take your choice. I like to go shooting with really old guns sometimes, it just feels good.

[Harter66]

I too lusted after an SAA and finally had one in hand and shot it some . It was an Uberti 4-5/8" , the action was smooth , tight , good trigger , crisp break and just not what I had anticipated . Don't get me wrong mechanically it was excellent , physically it was everything I expected . It pointed well , balanced well , easy to find sight line , it even felt good in hand . But there was just something between the sear break and reset that just ground on me , I don't know what it was but it just didn't work for me . Unfortunately it's the same with the 1860 clones but it's not there in the Dragoon and it isn't there in the later DAs like the direct competition to the early M10 S&W .

Before getting that gun I had spent a fair amount of time with a Colts 38 Special , 1917 and 1860s , S&W M10 , Ruger Security 6 357 and the Ruger BlackHawk 45 Colts NM with the various cowboy grips styles , as of this writing it occurs to me the SAA had a more "plow handle" grip than the longer sloping "traditional" grip and that may have been the problem with me .

I have spent a lot of time with a "Bicentennial" 45 Colts BlackHawk 7.5" barrel there are times when I wish it were a 5-1/2 , usually when the 2 oz would really make a difference . It came fitted with Pachmar grips , and I eventually aquired a 45 ACP cylinder for it . Honestly having run on up to Ruger only loads I don't need that much . It is to me like having a 357 and shooting hot 38s and even hot +Ps but only just tipping into 357 loads . It's having a platform that allows for hot loads if you want or need it without risk of damage . 1100 fps with 255-265 gr bullets is plenty of hammer for me , but there still room to move up and that's really just a little bit out of max standard Colts loads . +P ACPs are like switching to 38s in a 3# gun .
The large frame BH doesn't point as fluid as the Colts but even the target sight is easy to find . I blame the pointing flow on the Pachmar grips build up on the rear strap , new grips are on the to do list .......

I have a 3rd cylinder I hope to soon have cut for 45 S&W .

[DougGuy]

The New Model Vaquero is only a traditional sixgun in looks. Plus the fact that the cylinder holds six shots. There is no "4 clicks to full clock" unless you drop in an aftermarket hammer, but as far as utility and durability goes the Ruger has it hands down for the price.

For accuracy in executing a 140yr old design and having it look the part of an old Colt, the Italian clones are very good. They have gotten a lot better in recent years as sales have jumped which gives them funds for better tooling, better quality control, and they pretty much capture and fill the desire for the old west guns. A lot of folks like them, myself included. My avatar pic is a Uberti "Old West" model that is aged to look like an old Colt and having owned the same exact old Colt they are trying to emulate, I have to say they knocked it out of the park.

As far as loads, the top of the power band goes to the full sized Vaquero and Blackhawk (two digit prefix in serial number) these can handle the stoutest handloads and are larger, with thicker cylinders, very good for hunting big game, less desirable for SASS shooting due to their size and weight.

The middle band, or tier 2 loads run in the +P pressure range, these would be better suited in the medium frame New Model Vaquero, and Flattop Blackhawk (three digit prefix in serial number) still plenty powerful for hunting, these are lighter and thinner cylinders for quicker handling and easier packing on the hip, and are some of Ruger's best made sixguns. The Lipsey's limited runs are some of the nicest looking and best fitted of the bunch.

The traditional power band, the 14,000psi pressure ceiling of the original 45 Colt is well suited for the original Colts and the Italian clones, less pressure Cowboy loads are often used in competition. Some of the Italian clones can handle the tier 2 loads safely but I wouldn't push one to that level of power, the Rugers are very affordable and very durable with these loads.

The truth about owning SAA revolvers is that one seems to be not enough, to fully experience all facets of owning and shooting the SAA, you might want at least two Rugers, one NM Vaquero with traditional sights, and a NM Blackhawk with adjustable sights, and then one or two Italian Colt clones, and if you can find one affordable enough, invest in an old Colt. There is nothing quite like the real deal.

[Thumbcocker]

Consider getting one with a .45 acp cylinder as well. Lots if brass around and usually a little easier to find ammo.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Lots of good information and advice above. Nothing to really disagree with.

You mentioned not having checked out Cimarron. Their 1873 clones are Uberti.

If you are going to buy new, then there is no longer much to choose between Uberti and Pietta. If you buy used, then the older Ubertis were the better choice.

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Newer Pietta .357



Of course the Colt of any vintage is the gold standard of 1873s, but you'll pay accordingly.

Personal bias and experience, I like the Ruger Vaquero, but not so much the New Model Vaquero. It was designed to try and duplicate the Colt's heft and balance, but doesn't quite make it. The Old Vaquero is a Blackhawk without the adjustable sights, is larger than the Colt, but I like it, own three. It is what it is, which is not a Colt or clone.

You also mentioned stainess, which is a good option if (1) you're seeking improved corrosion (rust) resistance, and (2) don't mind the appearance being non-traditional. They're not as easy to find.

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4 3/4" or 5 1/2" -- tough choice. The first is a little handier, the second gives a bit longer sighting plain and probably gets the nod for hunting. You're not likely to notice much difference shooting at targets on the pistol range.

One thing is for certain, like potato chips, you probably won't settle for just one.

DG

[onelight]

Another thing to consider is if you want the ability to shoot heavy loads the the full size black Hawk in 45 colt is the only new choice . If you choose a colt clone consider the 44 special that gives you the option of the loads similar to what you see in six guns prior to the 44 mag. I find 44 special also has fewer complications to find good loads for and better case life than 45 colt at times.

[smkummer]

I am a colt collector and have somewhere around 10 Colt SAAs including New Frontier, bisley and the budget colt cowboy. One of my Colt SAAs in 45 colt has a fitted 45 acp cylinder that because I am a reloader, it very seldom gets used.
A full charge load in a SAA can and will send a 250 grain out about 900 FPS. With a plow handle single action grip. This completely rotates a 5 1/2” barrel SAA muzzle to the 12 o’clock position rapidly. 2 handed controls this better. For a more relaxed range session, cowboy loads in the 6-700 FPS range with a 200 grain bullet are easily assembled.
I am guessing almost every single action shooter likes to hear the 4 clicks when cocking the hammer.
So only you will know if that’s important over the safety provided with the ruger if 6 rounds are loaded.
I am guessing others may do this as well, if I am on the firing line and plan on shooting right after loading, I’ll load 6 in my colt and go from 1/2 cock to full cock and fire. For cowboy action of course, we always load 5.
45 cowboy special brass loads with 45 acp dies and a 45 colt shell holder. And is fired in a 45 long colt cylinder. It allows really small charges to fire consistently.

[smkummer]

Agree with onelight and the 44 special caliber should you want a bit more than 45 colt.

[Bigslug]

Define "Modern .45 Colt" If you're looking to handload for magnum-level horsepower, the Ruger Blackhawk platform - not the current Vaquero - is your gun of choice. It's worth remembering that even the Old West period 225-255 grain solid bullet loadings were considered adequate to literally both "screw you AND the horse you rode in on", so you might stop and question what real need there is to hot-rod the thing.

If you're looking for pure traditional with black powder (ish) level pressures, the Cimmaron product line is very extensive and replicates many of the variations of guns that Colt made throughout the S.A.A.'s production history.

The modern (post 1973) transfer-bar Rugers are unquestionably a safer gun for the uninitiated that want the Peacemaker look, but don't know how, aren't mechanically inclined, or aren't willing to deal with/accept the realities of a true S.A.A.'s hammer-mounted firing pin and multi-station cocking system.

[Outpost75]

My Cimarron Pistolero .45 Colt and Frontier .44-40 models are both made by Pietta. My two New Sheriff's Models in the same calibers are by Uberti. All four guns nicely turned out and shoot well. I used cylinder shim kits from Lance Shively to tighten the Uberti black powder frame Sheriff's models, and all four revolvers needed to have front sights dressed down a bit to zero.

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[Bazoo]

I've never owned a colt or clone. Clones being uberti or other copy. Ruger new model Blackhawks and vaqueros are not exactly clones, they just have the traditional style.

With a colt or clone, or a Ruger old model, you can safely only carry 5 rounds. You must keep an empty chamber under the hammer This is because the hammer nose rests on the primer if the hammer is all the way down. Should the gun be dropped or have a strike to the hammer it will discharge. They have a safety notch on the hammer that keeps the firing pin from touching, but this isn't considered safe for carry.

With a new model Ruger, vaquero or blackhawk, you can safely carry all six chambers loaded.

There is another thing, that others don't notice or mention. The trigger. On a colt or clone, it isn't centered in the frame. On a Ruger new model, it is. This is a deal breaker for me. When you get the chance to look at a colt you should notice this and decide if it's a factor for you.

One thing to consider is caliber. Rugers are commonly available with 45 acp conversion cylinder. With your buddy's 45 reloading gear, you could shoot right from the start. Otherwise you'll have to acquire all the required caliber specific stuff for 45 colt.

You might consider a 357 as well, since you're already set to load 38 special. 357 magnum is a lengthened and more powerful version of the 38 special, and all 357 magnum chambered arms can accept and safely fire 38 special.

[Walks]

Lots of interesting commentary here.

If YOU want a .45Colt then buy that. As much as I love the .44Spl, there is a mystique about the .45Colt that no other Cartridge comes close to.
These days if I were to buy another Italian clone; (I have 9) I would get a Cimarron. I think they offer the best on the market today.
The revolvers I have were mostly made from the late 1980's to the early 2000's.
Uberti, Pietta and Armi San Marco.
They run from 3 1/2" to 7 1/2" .
In .357Mag, .44Spl, .44-40 & .45Colt calibers.
Fit and finish very a bit, but I consider all of them very good. With the last Cimarron bought in 2005 to be excellent.
All will shoot within 3 inches at 25yrds. Some very much better.

I also own 3 Colts, all late 1970's- early 1980's revolvers.
The pair in .44Spl were shot from 1987 to 2011 in Cowboy Shooting, approximately 5,000rds a year plus. With a complete teardown cleaning every year. I also replaced springs then too. They are excellent Revolvers. Again Mystique of the Real Colt SAA, if you can find one and afford it when you do.

As far as the Rugers go. I own 3 Blackhawks, 2 SBH's, 3 old Vaquero's and one New Vaquero.
They are a TOUGH Revolver.
If you can check out the various Revolvers in your hand before you Buy.
By all means, Do it. It's what You like the best that matters.
Good Luck with your choice.

[VariableRecall]

Define "Modern .45 Colt" If you're looking to handload for magnum-level horsepower, the Ruger Blackhawk platform - not the current Vaquero - is your gun of choice. It's worth remembering that even the Old West period 225-255 grain solid bullet loadings were considered adequate to literally both "screw you AND the horse you rode in on", so you might stop and question what real need there is to hot-rod the thing.


I just want to make sure that the cartridges marked ".45 Colt" at the store can move through my future piece with no issue whatsoever. Not looking to push punishing loads through the thing, although, the Blackhawk's extra reinforcement would be a very nice margin for safety in handloads.

[VariableRecall]

Another quick question regarding loading for .45 Colt.

My brother has a bunch of 200gn SWC's sized for .453. Would they be able to work loading .45 Colt?
I had seen from another poster that some of their SAA's required oversized boolits to work effectively.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Another quick question regarding loading for .45 Colt.

My brother has a bunch of 200gn SWC's sized for .453. Would they be able to work loading .45 Colt?
I had seen from another poster that some of their SAA's required oversized boolits to work effectively.

That depends a bit on which .45 Colt. (?) Years ago the bore size for .45 Colt was .454". Today you'll have difficulty finding one not bored to .452". So, I'd say that if it's a recently manufactured Colt or clone .453" would work just fine. In an older revolver with a .454" bore it might be a little loose, but still might prove satisfactory. Like opinions, bores vary.

[VariableRecall]

That depends a bit on which .45 Colt. (?) Years ago the bore size for .45 Colt was .454". Today you'll have difficulty finding one not bored to .452". So, I'd say that if it's a recently manufactured Colt or clone .453" would work just fine. In an older revolver with a .454" bore it might be a little loose, but still might prove satisfactory. Like opinions, bores vary.

Thanks! I think that if I were to get one, My budget would be around $420-$600. Brand new would be nice, but a used Convertible Blackhawk seems to be the best option in terms of price.

From what I see from all of this, I can still get all the quirks of half-cock gate loading goodness without dealing with the imminent danger of ND's with Ruger's transfer bar system. Of course, my brother and I will likely use the same disciplined reloading as if it were the older models, just for safety's sake.

[leadeye]

A refurbished, but still shooting 38-40 from 1902.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

VariableRecall--I'm having just a bit of a problem following what you're saying-- but that's probably because I'm a relic. If I'm reading you correctly, you're claim or insinuation is that a newer Ruger with a transfer bar system is (I'm guessing that ND means Negligent Discharges) more dangerous that the older model with the half cock system? That's news to me. Ruger advertised it as being (and I believe) the transfer bar system to be much safer than the original model. That's also my opinion, although I've never had a ND with either version. True, it's less authentic, and less appealing to fans of the Old West, but if you're drawing back the hammer on the original version past the half cock position to full cock and your thumb slips off the hammer spur the gun may fire. On the other hand, the transfer bar isn't all the way up to transfer the hammer blow unless the hammer is at full cock, and the gun won't fire. So the story goes, Ruger lost a big legal settlement to a blockhead who was playing quick draw with the original version. The hammer slipped out from under his thumb before the revolver had cleared leather, and shot him in the leg. No one but the plaintiff's lawyers felt sorry for the guy, but it caused Ruger to redesign the Blackhawk. I've got a 7 1/2" Blackhawk, and confidently carry it with all chambers loaded. Of course, there are other old guy traditionalists that only load five chambers, but it's habit. You might have difficulty in finding an old model Blackhawk that hasn't been factory converted to the transfer bar system, as Ruger has offered this service for years and even returns your old replaced parts in a little baggie. If the old model is what your heart desires, then by all means follow the old formula of load one, skip one, load four, fully cock the hammer and lower it on an empty chamber. As for the Colt and the clones, that is a must follow system. For your price range you should be able to get a mighty nice revolver.

[VariableRecall]

VariableRecall--I'm having just a bit of a problem following what you're saying-- but that's probably because I'm a relic. If I'm reading you correctly, you're claim or insinuation is that a newer Ruger with a transfer bar system is (I'm guessing that ND means Negligent Discharges) more dangerous that the older model with the half cock system? That's news to me. Ruger advertised it as being (and I believe) the transfer bar system to be much safer than the original model. That's also my opinion, although I've never had a ND with either version. True, it's less authentic, and less appealing to fans of the Old West, but if you're drawing back the hammer on the original version past the half cock position to full cock and your thumb slips off the hammer spur the gun may fire. On the other hand, the transfer bar isn't all the way up to transfer the hammer blow unless the hammer is at full cock, and the gun won't fire. So the story goes, Ruger lost a big legal settlement to a blockhead who was playing quick draw with the original version. The hammer slipped out from under his thumb before the revolver had cleared leather, and shot him in the leg. No one but the plaintiff's lawyers felt sorry for the guy, but it caused Ruger to redesign the Blackhawk. I've got a 7 1/2" Blackhawk, and confidently carry it with all chambers loaded. Of course, there are other old guy traditionalists that only load five chambers, but it's habit. You might have difficulty in finding an old model Blackhawk that hasn't been factory converted to the transfer bar system, as Ruger has offered this service for years and even returns your old replaced parts in a little baggie. If the old model is what your heart desires, then by all means follow the old formula of load one, skip one, load four, fully cock the hammer and lower it on an empty chamber. As for the Colt and the clones, that is a must follow system. For your price range you should be able to get a mighty nice revolver.

I didn't mean to confuse you. I meant that the transfer bar system on modern reproductions is good, and would leave a modern margin for safety that I would prefer.

I was also meaning to say that I won't become LESS cautious with my handling if we did have a transfer bar. I didn't know about that lawsuit but that huge engraving on modern Rugers really tells a story.

Transfer bar or not, I'm planning on learning traditional safe handling procedures for the piece. It won't be the end of the world if I get one without a transfer bar either. I prefer to have piece of mind that there is a bit of metal to help protect me from something terrible happening. Not planning on "Fan Firing" either, that feels a little rude to do to the thing.

[Outpost75]

Cylinder throats on both my Pietta and Uberti .44-40 revolvers are .431" with barrels .428". My 1905 Colt Frontier Six Shooter .44-40 has .430 cylinder throats and .426 groove diameter, whereas the 1928 New Service has .431 throats and .428 groove. Both Italian makes of .45 Colt revolvers have .455" cylinder throats, with barrel groove .4535, same as my 1920 Colt New Service. I size all of my .44-40 bullets to .430 and .45 Colt bullets to .455" regardless of what gun I am shooting them in.

I standardized on 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals with LSStuff 45-45-10 and 6 grains of Bullseye or 6.5 of WST, 452AA or 231 in the .44-40 and 6.5 grains of Bullseye or 7.5 grains of WST, 452AA or 231 in the .45 Colts.

Most accurate bullet in .44-40 for standard pressure loads is Accurate 43-206H "stump nosed" semi-wadcutter which resembles a #452423 which shrunk in the washing machine. In the .45 Colt I use both 45-246H and 45-264H, depending upon which bullet weight is needed to shoot to the fixed sights of the particular gun.

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[VariableRecall]

Cylinder throats on both my Pietta and Uberti .44-40 revolvers are .431" with barrels .428". My 1905 Colt Frontier Six Shooter .44-40 has .430 cylinder throats and .426 groove diameter, whereas the 1928 New Service has .431 throats and .428 groove. Both Italian makes of .45 Colt revolvers have .455" cylinder throats, with barrel groove .4535, same as my 1920 Colt New Service. I size all of my .44-40 bullets to .430 and .45 Colt bullets to .455" regardless of what gun I am shooting them in.

I standardized on 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals with LSStuff 45-45-10 and 6 grains of Bullseye or 6.5 of WST, 452AA or 231 in the .44-40 and 6.5 grains of Bullseye or 7.5 grains of WST, 452AA or 231 in the .45 Colts.

Most accurate bullet in .44-40 for standard pressure loads is Accurate 43-206H "stump nosed" semi-wadcutter which resembles a #452423 which shrunk in the washing machine. In the .45 Colt I use both 45-246H and 45-264H, depending upon which bullet weight is needed to shoot to the fixed sights of the particular gun.

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Thank you very much for the detailed info!
From the Lyman manual that I had picked up, they recommend bullets sized to .452. They also have loads using the powder that I already have in stock: Winchester 231. Wow! That's a great deal of powder packed in there in those loads! Quite the Wallop!

[Outpost75]

Beware of the often repeated, ERRONEOUS mythology and folklore in Lyman-Ideal handbooks to size bullets to the groove diameter of the barrel. THIS IS PURE BS!!!!

MEASURE the cylinder throat diameters ahead of the revolver chambers either by using pin gages, or drive dead-soft, pure lead round balls through the chambers and out the front of the cylinder, removed from the gun, and then measure them. Size bullets to 0.001" LESS than cylinder throat diameters of the CYLINDER.

IGNORE the groove diameter of the barrel entirely unless the cylinder throats happen to be smaller than the barrel groove. In that case you want to hone the cylinder throats to be UNIFORM in diameter and 0.0010 to 0.0015" LARGER than the barrel groove diameter.

DougGuy is the Go-to fella to fix this for you. Heed his advice and you will be happy.

[DougGuy]

Thank you Ed.. I have always said that in a perfect world, a revolver's boolits are .001" to .002" larger than groove diameter, and throat diameter is .0005" to .001" larger than boolit diameter. This works in all centerfire calibers that I know of.

Basically, the revolver's dimensions need to read not unlike a common kitchen funnel. The larger dimensions in the back, and as the path of the boolit moves forward, dimensions need to be smaller and smaller until it exits the muzzle. This insures that the boolit is continually forced into a tighter space, which swages it down and forms a tight seal as it moves from case mouth to cylinder throat, to forcing cone, to the bore and out the end of the barrel. This doesn't give burning powder gases any avenue of escape, does not provide a gap where gases can escape along the side of the boolit which will cause leading and also cause groups to open.

There are two ways to keep the boolit sealed in the cylinder throats, which is where leading and the deterioration of the side of the boolit will begin. The first way is to size the boolit to a light drag fit in the throats with a mechanical sizing die of the right diameter, the second way is to use an alloy soft enough over a powder charge stout enough to obturate the boolit itself and cause it to expand outward where it is confined by the throat forming a good seal and a tight as a drum fit in the throats.

There is yet a third way to fit boolits tight in the throats, this is to size and lube boolits immediately after casting, and allow them to sit and age harden for some months, if there is much antimony in the alloy at all, the boolits will grow in diameter .0003" to .0006" for 44 and 45 caliber boolits, likely more if they are heavy for caliber and long like many of the 300+ gr WFN designs. For example, if you size a 45 caliber boolit cast with 50/50+2% alloy to .001" below cylinder throat diameters, let it sit on a shelf for 6mos, it may grow to the point that it needs some effort to push it through the throats.

[VariableRecall]

Beware of the often repeated, ERRONEOUS mythology and folklore in Lyman-Ideal handbooks to size bullets to the groove diameter of the barrel. THIS IS PURE BS!!!!

MEASURE the cylinder throat diameters ahead of the revolver chambers either by using pin gages, or drive dead-soft, pure lead round balls through the chambers and out the front of the cylinder, removed from the gun, and then measure them. Size bullets to 0.001" LESS than cylinder throat diameters of the CYLINDER.

IGNORE the groove diameter of the barrel entirely unless the cylinder throats happen to be smaller than the barrel groove. In that case you want to hone the cylinder throats to be UNIFORM in diameter and 0.0010 to 0.0015" LARGER than the barrel groove diameter.

DougGuy is the Go-to fella to fix this for you. Heed his advice and you will be happy.

Well, my .38 Special boolits were sized to .358 and they managed to shoot wonderfully. With their Hi-Tek Coating, they didn't lead at all. I have some boolits from another user sized to .357, so I have an opportunity in the future to try out a slightly narrower cartridge. He had told me that it works with his revolver in particular better, so perhaps it may not work as well with mine, but, we shall see.

Considering the varied sizes of cylinder throats out there, it's best to take some serious measurements before purchasing any boolits I suppose.

[smkummer]

I sized Lyman’s 454190 ( 250 gr.) to .454 and its wonderfully accurate in all my 45 colt chambered Colts( SAA/NF, New Service and Anaconda). My Lee 200 RN drops out of the mold at .453 and it is used as is. Works fine.

[Baltimoreed]

My first cas revolvers were ss .45 Vaqueros, other than clipping a coil or two from the hammer spring and checkered grips I didn’t do anything to them until this year where I replaced the old flat hammers with the wider Blackhawk hammers. Just for looks. They are larger than colt clones which depending on your hand size may or may not fit. Bought my daughter in-law a new model vaquero birdshead grip and can’t shoot it as it slams my knuckles too bad, fits her fine. The other issue with vaqueros are the .44s. There were a run of them with undersized cylinder throats and so they had accuracy issues. Don’t know much about colts or clones I’m afraid. Btw, I’m up to 6 .45 vaqueros and one ss .22 vaquero. Good luck.

[downzero]

Lots of good information and advice above. Nothing to really disagree with.

You mentioned not having checked out Cimarron. Their 1873 clones are Uberti.


Not all. I have the Frontier and they are made by Pietta.


The modern (post 1973) transfer-bar Rugers are unquestionably a safer gun for the uninitiated that want the Peacemaker look, but don't know how, aren't mechanically inclined, or aren't willing to deal with/accept the realities of a true S.A.A.'s hammer-mounted firing pin and multi-station cocking system.

It sounds like he already has a Smith & Wesson DA revolver with the same issue, so perhaps that ship has sailed.

OP, you probably should stick to a .38/.357 model since that's what you have already and you're just starting out. There is nothing wrong with the 45 Colt cartridge, but why add another caliber to the stable? There are plenty of great Cimarron/Uberti/Pietta .357 peacemakers out there that will do the job just nicely and use the same dies and brass you're shooting already.

[Bazoo]

Well, my .38 Special boolits were sized to .358 and they managed to shoot wonderfully. With their Hi-Tek Coating, they didn't lead at all. I have some boolits from another user sized to .357, so I have an opportunity in the future to try out a slightly narrower cartridge. He had told me that it works with his revolver in particular better, so perhaps it may not work as well with mine, but, we shall see.

Considering the varied sizes of cylinder throats out there, it's best to take some serious measurements before purchasing any boolits I suppose.

No disrespect to outpost meant here.

Plenty of folks have bought a revolver, and made ammo of standard size, and had good luck. No measuring required. It may be you get lucky. I always try standard sized bullets in each gun to see if it's acceptable, before I look for a solution to a problem. If leading is present, or if accuracy isn't satisfactory, then change things.

If you can get 4" at 25 yard groups out of easily assembled ammo, and those groups are acceptable for you, then be happy and do it the easy way. When you can shoot better, and need better, then do the extra work to make better ammo.

[Bazoo]

The theory of sticking with 38/357 is sound, but it also has a reverse theory. Perhaps you will encounter large pistol primers, then having a 45 colt revolver and or a 45c/45acp convertible would be a better option. Consider also, with the conversion cylinder, 45 acp is available with both large and small primer pockets. The main disadvantage of 45 colt is you will not find factory ammo or used brass the way you will 38special and 357 magnum. You will have to just buy brass when it's available.

Personally I like big bore revolvers. I like them all though.

[Outpost75]

Agree with Bazoo too, if you cannot tell the difference, don't spend the money or wrap yourself around the axle worrying about it. The fellows I hang with would be trading handguns guns if they couldn't do any better than 4-5" ten-shot groups at 50 yards.

"One inch per ten" (yards) has been the benchmark for acceptable accuracy of a service revolver for over 100 years.

[VariableRecall]

The theory of sticking with 38/357 is sound, but it also has a reverse theory. Perhaps you will encounter large pistol primers, then having a 45 colt revolver and or a 45c/45acp convertible would be a better option. Consider also, with the conversion cylinder, 45 acp is available with both large and small primer pockets. The main disadvantage of 45 colt is you will not find factory ammo or used brass the way you will 38special and 357 magnum. You will have to just buy brass when it's available.

Personally I like big bore revolvers. I like them all though.

That convertible Ruger Blackhawk looks more tempting every time I look at one.
Perhaps getting one used would be the most viable choice to get next in terms of .45 Colt compatible handgun, and then I can get a more period accurate Colt or Uberti in the much longer run.

I'm kind of terrified of mixing small pistol primed .45 ACP brass with the large ones, so I'm not really into having the potential of a mix up. It also ensures that my brother can use one type of primer, and I can use another.

Obviously the first order of business would be to try out a buddy's SAA or one from a store so that I can understand what I would get into before I pony up any cash.

[VariableRecall]

Agree with Bazoo too, if you cannot tell the difference, don't spend the money or wrap yourself around the axle worrying about it.

The fellows I hang with would be trading handguns guns if they couldn't do any better than 4-5" ten-shot groups at 50 yards.

Considering my current groups are hanging around 4-5" groups at about 10 yards, clearly I need some more practice. I know that comparable model 10's can drive lead into the bullseye at the same range, so I just need to get to my own firearm's standards first.

IF someone's going to leave an Uberti out in the cold because it can't hit a bullseye at 50 yards, I'd love to take such an "inferior" handgun in. A defensive situation is most likely going to occur within 25 yards or often much less. if it drives true at that range It would be in my hands in a jiffy!

[gwpercle]

If I had the money and/or if I were younger I would buy a "real" Colt SA . They never loose value and they are a real Colt .
Since I was never rich I purchased a Ruger Blackhawk in 1971 , I could afford it and I rather liked the adjustable sights .
Still have it , still shoot it ... no regrets .
When Ruger brought out the Wrangler , 22 LR , SA w/ 4 5/8" barrel ... I went to Cabela's and on my 71st birthday , bought one ... for $199 ...absolutely no regrets !
Always wanted a short barreled quick draw , gunfighter type SA ... bucket list SA !

Life's short ... get whatever you can afford and go shooting !
Gary

[Bazoo]

Don't worry about having 45 acp brass in both sizes. It's easy to tell the difference and they load the same. Blazer factory brass is SPP, some others is too. Just keep the SPP brass separate until you need it, then you'll be glad you have it.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I own about 10 Colt’s SAA’s all 3rd gens. A Ruger New Model and 3 Ruger 3 screw SA’s, a couple of Italian copies.

I’ve thought about this a lot. Why do I like the Colt’s? When I take guns out of the safe to go to the range I grab my Colt’s first. When I get to the range I grab my Colt’s first. I shoot the Colt’s more by far. Why? I dunno. The Colt’s SAA simply is my favorite handgun.

I’ve got Colt’s I shoot off hand, unsupported, one hand at 100 yards, they are very accurate.

The 454190 is by far shot the most, and Unique is most frequently used.

Your mileage my vary. I’d buy the Colt’s. If you don’t like it you can always sell it.

We were told years ago the Colt’s SAA was fragile. I’ve tried to break mine with constant shooting and haven’t been able to yet.

If a 3rd gen blows up on me, history hasn’t been altered. No Colt’s has ever blown up on me yet and I’ve been shooting Colt’s since the early 1980’s,

[Bazoo]

I'm opposite, I ain't a colt man. I'm a Ruger man. I like the way Rugers look. I like the adjustable sights. I like the centered trigger. I like new models because I like carrying 6 rounds. A colt is what? Near a thousand? A Ruger is $400-$500 used. That sounds like a deal to me.

Now I recognize the history of colts. Ruger took up where colt left off. The deal breaker either way for me is carrying 6 rounds.

[Walks]

All My Life I've heard the the Colt SAA was fragile. My Dad, who probably one's 40-50 in his lifetime; said that was horse pucky. Started by the fast draw maniacs who abused guns worse the anyone would think possible.
I Have 2 SAA's in .44Spl that I shot from 1987 to 2009 or 2010. At least 5,000rds a year. Did a complete strip down & clean once a year. Replaced springs every year, and bolts just once each.
My kids shot one Colt & 3 Uberti/Pietta clones from 1992 to 2005. Replaced both springs, hands & bolt once each, when new with Colt parts and after about 15,000rds.

Colts will last as long as any other Revolver.
And longer then some.

I'd sure like to find a used colt for $1,000

Carrying 6rds ? or 5rds ? never needed that extra round, when I stepped off the asphalt.

[downzero]

I own about 10 Colt’s SAA’s all 3rd gens. A Ruger New Model and 3 Ruger 3 screw SA’s, a couple of Italian copies.

I’ve thought about this a lot. Why do I like the Colt’s? When I take guns out of the safe to go to the range I grab my Colt’s first. When I get to the range I grab my Colt’s first. I shoot the Colt’s more by far. Why? I dunno. The Colt’s SAA simply is my favorite handgun.

I’ve got Colt’s I shoot off hand, unsupported, one hand at 100 yards, they are very accurate.

The 454190 is by far shot the most, and Unique is most frequently used.

Your mileage my vary. I’d buy the Colt’s. If you don’t like it you can always sell it.

We were told years ago the Colt’s SAA was fragile. I’ve tried to break mine with constant shooting and haven’t been able to yet.

If a 3rd gen blows up on me, history hasn’t been altered. No Colt’s has ever blown up on me yet and I’ve been shooting Colt’s since the early 1980’s,

The loads I shoot in my Redhawk would send it to the moon. I won't even post them here!

[Silver Jack Hammer]

The loads I shoot in my Redhawk would send it to the moon. I won't even post them here!

Ouch. I won a Redhawk in a shooting match. Took that Redhawk to IHMSA matches and shot 300 gr. boolits out to 200 yards without any problem. Shot 2 classifications, 40 rounds each classification. 80 rounds each match. Never had any problem with the recoil. Took second place in the nationals with that Redhawk.

The Colt’s SAA is a much lighter gun than the Redhawk, and the cylinder walls of the Redhawk are much thicker.

I know you know this Downzero, I’m just stating the obvious.

Brian Pierce said he has a SAA by USFA bored out to .44 magnum and he’s been shooting it. That’s fine for him, again I say; ouch.

[Green Frog]

You mention looking at the clones. I decided I wanted to join the fun in Cowboy Fast Draw competitions that shoot wax “bullets” at a stop plate. I went to Taylor’s in Winchester, VA where they sell a variety of imports (including the long line of Uberti SAA revolvers) during one of their annual open house celebrations. They offer a SAA version called the”Smokewagon” that has the classic case colored frame and blued barrel and cylinder. They offer this and other models in “Taylor Tuned” condition which I bought and highly recommend. This involves jig cutting of sear surfaces and improved springs... it was competition ready right out of the box. :)

I can’t speak for all brands, but I’d be comfortable shooting any current factory loads (or factory equivalent reloads) out of any of the Uberti copies of the SAA. Wax bullets don’t stress it much, of course, but I’ve also played around at the range with a couple of boxes of factory stuff as well. :Fire:

Froggie

[VariableRecall]

You mention looking at the clones. I decided I wanted to join the fun in Cowboy Fast Draw competitions that shoot wax “bullets” at a stop plate. I went to Taylor’s in Winchester, VA where they sell a variety of imports (including the long line of Uberti SAA revolvers) during one of their annual open house celebrations. They offer a SAA version called the”Smokewagon” that has the classic case colored frame and blued barrel and cylinder. They offer this and other models in “Taylor Tuned” condition which I bought and highly recommend. This involves jig cutting of sear surfaces and improved springs... it was competition ready right out of the box. :)

I can’t speak for all brands, but I’d be comfortable shooting any current factory loads (or factory equivalent reloads) out of any of the Uberti copies of the SAA. Wax bullets don’t stress it much, of course, but I’ve also played around at the range with a couple of boxes of factory stuff as well. :Fire:

Froggie

Cutting the sear surfaces sounds like a bad idea to me. Wouldn't that shorten the lifespan of some of the most important parts of the firearm?

[downzero]

Cutting the sear surfaces sounds like a bad idea to me. Wouldn't that shorten the lifespan of some of the most important parts of the firearm?

Cutting/smoothing the sear surfaces to do a trigger job is something every serious handgunner does. You'd be hard pressed to find any competitor at a major tournament who hadn't done trigger work. Nothing is more important to keeping the sights on the target than a smooth trigger press, whether light or heavy.

It's less critical on a SA revolver, where the triggers are light already, but it something that every competitor does at every type of competition in order to gain a competitive advantage, especially in handguns where the gun itself might be lighter than the force needed to trip the sear.

[RJM52]

VR...one of the guns I don't recall anyone mentioning is the mid-frame Ruger Flat Top... It is smaller than the Blackhawk and has the original XR3 gripframe that is more like the original Colt. A friend has one in stainless steel with the extra .45 ACP cylinder and it is both good looking and a great shooter. They come in 4 5/8" and 5.5" I believe as well as blue and stainless...just VERY hard to find right now and expensive when one does.

https://ruger.com/products/newModelBlackhawkConvertible/specSheets/5243.html

Being mainly a .41 shooter I have not had many .45 Colts but have owned a USFA and Colt both with the 4.75" barrel. Beautifully balanced guns. And both shot right to the POA. That said, I don't really care for the fixed sight SAAs as the sights are just too small for aging eyes...

Good luck on your quest...

Bob

[Von Dingo]

VR...one of the guns I don't recall anyone mentioning is the mid-frame Ruger Flat Top... It is smaller than the Blackhawk and has the original XR3 gripframe that is more like the original Colt. A friend has one in stainless steel with the extra .45 ACP cylinder and it is both good looking and a great shooter. They come in 4 5/8" and 5.5" I believe as well as blue and stainless...just VERY hard to find right now and expensive when one does.

https://ruger.com/products/newModelBlackhawkConvertible/specSheets/5243.html

Being mainly a .41 shooter I have not had many .45 Colts but have owned a USFA and Colt both with the 4.75" barrel. Beautifully balanced guns. And both shot right to the POA. That said, I don't really care for the fixed sight SAAs as the sights are just too small for aging eyes...

Good luck on your quest...

Bob

The recommendation for the mid frame flat top convertible was a point I was going to make after reading this thread. They are quite refined, and built on newer tooling, and after a couple of years of production Colt coincidentally brought back the New Frontiers. Take the time to track one down, they are nice.

[Ed K]

Definitely find fixed sights are harder to shoot accurately but workable - fixed sights on a stainless steel gun are downright difficult.

[VariableRecall]

The good news is that i have been able to find a retailer that actually sells Uberti models in my area, and they are selling for a lot better prices than gunbroker. ill be certain to check them out when i get the chance.