Need help, new to cast reloading

[3rdTennCoC]

So I'm new to reloading cartridge guns with cast boolits, and I'm trying to reload for my 303, the bore i slugged around .314 .315 so i cast and loaded some cartridges with a 203g linotype .316 boolit on top of 38g of h380 (i know I've heard it's not really a cast bullet powder but it's what i have from reloading jacketed)

Odd thing is, when I took it to the range, nothing was hitting at 50 yards, shortened up to 25 yards (almost "point blank" for this guy) and still not on paper, I'm not sure where its hitting if at all, out of frustration I load it with some factory 174g jacketed and a 5 shot group in 3 inches dead center.

What am I doing wrong?

[milsurpcollector1970]

Well, a few things could be happening.

You could be leading your barrel because of the velocity Not sure what the book speed is for that charge could not find it in the online reloading guide.

It could be really slow and the bullets are all hitting under the target.

H380 is a fairly slow powder and cast boolits generally like faster powders.

What gun are u using, the Enfield has sight that are calibrated for a jacketed bullet?

I would start with a powder better suited for cast like h4895. If you can find it (its a tough time for beginning reloaders right now)

H4895 allows you to lower the charge to 60% of max for a reduced load

[gpidaho]

3rd: Welcome along. Try a Lot softer alloy and a lot faster powder. Try 10 Bhn (Approx.) range scrap- wheel weight. And maybe Red Dot 10 or 12 gr. Maybe TiteGroup 8 or 9gr. and let us know. Gp

[Larry Gibson]

"So I'm new to reloading cartridge guns with cast boolits,"

Suggest you get a copy of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook #3 [available in used book stores or in digital on line] and read and study the front part on casting a loading cast bullets.

Are your bullets properly GC'd and lubed?

Just using a load (from where?) is not the proper way to develop a load, even with known cast bullet data. Using jacketed bullet data usually isn't a good starting place. Odds are your 38 gr H380 load is pushing that bullet way too hard. That is especially too hard if your SMLE is a 2 groove with 2 very narrow shallow grooves. If you are bent on using H380 then drop the load down to 28 gr and use a dacron filler. If that shoots ok then work up in 1 gr increments (using at least 5 shot groups) until accuracy goes south again. Some where in there you may find a reasonably accurate load. In reality there are many better proven powders to use with cast bullets in the 303.

If I sound condescending I am not, please excuse me but I am just being straight forward with you. Many times, on this forum, some want to use what they have and expect it to work. It just isn't that way. Many times some things just don't work. There is a reason why many cartridge/bullet combinations do not have data for many powders listed. You may be finding that reason with h380 in your 303.

[Conditor22]

Welcome to Cast Boolits 3rdTennCoC

Linotype may be a bit hard, the book calls for 12-15 BHN with best result around 1550fps

I have good results with 18grn 4227 under 185 grn lee 1r
or 4895 (start at 30) and work your way up under 185 grn lee 1r

With cast bullets (boolits) you need to expand the case neck and flare the case mouth to keep the case from compressing the boolits drive bands and downsizing it too small for the bore of course they don't have a .320 x .316 :killingpc I'd try the .318 x .314 Exp. Plug https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/expanders/expander-plug-rifle/318-x-314-exp-plug/
you will also need a LEE Universal Case Exp. Die to put the expander plug in.

I like to use NOE expanders (first # is the diameter of the flare at the mouth / second number is the size of the neck expander) with the neck expander the same size as my boolit diameter (brass shrinks back .001 to .0015 after being stretched) Don't over crimp the boolit.

With a new load, take a big piece of cardboard so you can see where it's going, start close and after you see where it's hitting move out

IF you don't have Lymans Cast Bullet 4th edition I'd recommend getting it for load data and other cast bullet reloading info


Here's a link to an online copy of Lymans Cast Bullet 3rd edition which has everything you need for the 303
http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Bullet%20Casting/Lyman%20Cast%20Bullet%20Handbook%20-%203rd%20Edition%20-%201980%20-%20Reduce.pdf

[Jim22]

First, you didn't say whether you are using a .303 British or a .303 Savage. I would think the Savage would be a better bet for cast boolits because of its longer neck and smaller powder capacity. Regardless, it sounds like you are pushing the cast boolits beyond their ability to be accurate. It could be that your alloy is too soft, causing the lead to smear up the barrel. Small bore cartridges like either .303 can be difficult to find a good load for. Normally you cannot push cast boolits out of them as fast as you can jacketed. Larger bore cartridges, especially straight-walled ones - seem to be easier to use cast boolits in. That is why so many of us are using them.

Another possibility is that your boolits are doing OK but shoot to an entirely different point of aim as the jacketed. Might try shooting closer - say 25 yds. - with a big cardboard backer board to catch shots that miss the target.

Once you start to get groups you can look for group size, elongated holes, indicating that the boolits are not stable in flight. Several things can cause instability. One is powder gas getting past the boolits inside the barrel. Could be caused by soft alloy, poor or non-existent bullet lube, lack of gas checks, or excess velocity.

[dogmower]

my 303 british load is 200 grain boolit, sized .314, over 36 grains of imr 4350. shoots well with good velocity. i gas check and powder coat these. in my experience, when you get really terrible accuracy with cast boolits, it's usually that the load is too hot. for example, i recently worked up a 200 grain 30/06 load for my m1 Garand with shooter's world buffalo. at 36 grains, it shot all over the place, no accuracy whatsoever. at 32 grains, right out target on the steel pigs every time at 300 meters, cycling the rifle perfectly. cast boolits, especially in mil surp calibers, tend to be very picky about the powder charge, or more specifically, the pressure at which they're loaded.

[quilbilly]

First of all, Welcome to Our Board!! Read then reread Larry's advice.
My first suggestion is to use lead that is quite a bit softer. I alloy pure lead with a hard lead for good results.
My second suggestion is be patient with your testing. Reloading with cast adds several new variables to the reloading equation and it takes time to work all those out. Every rifle has its own personality with likes and dislikes for you to discover. It is an adventure. Sometimes you get lucky with a new (to you) barrel but usually not. For instance, I have two 308's with the same twist rate and each likes a different load, boolit weight, and MV. I got lucky with one and the other took months to figure out.
When you get the Lyman CB book. Start with loads that give you an MV about 1800 fps using two different powders, a fast and slower burning such as Unique and 3031 Assuming you are using gas checked boolits, of course.
This is really the scientific method. Develop a hypotheses, assemble the materials, test at short range (maybe 40-50 yards), and refine hypotheses. Any group under 2-1/2" anywhere on the paper is a clue that you might be on the right trail.

[3rdTennCoC]

I though I would start with a reduced load of what I have, but what surprised me was that even at 25 yards it was not hitting a 1x1 foot target, I am using alox for lube but no gas check, probably some iffy advice but I was told I could try lino with no gas check and see how it does under 2000fps (hence the reduced h380 load) like it's been said relaoding suplies are short at the moment but I will try to get and utilize the powders that have been recommended. I would be interested in trying the reduced 28g of h380 with filler, but is COW a no no or alright to use, that's what I have on hand at the moment, if not I wont try it. Should I try that load with lino or mix pure in? I see some said 10 to 15 bhn, is that achievable with about a 1:1 lino and pure?

If it complicate the matter more, I also shot a 5 shot group with 45 grains of 2f black powder to the same result...???

Apologies, the gun: 1943 lithgow smle, 5 groove, 303 brit (of course)

[MUSTANG]

"So I'm new to reloading cartridge guns with cast boolits,"

Suggest you get a copy of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook #3 [available in used book stores or in digital on line] and read and study the front part on casting a loading cast bullets.

Are your bullets properly GC'd and lubed?

Just using a load (from where?) is not the proper way to develop a load, even with known cast bullet data. Using jacketed bullet data usually isn't a good starting place. Odds are your 38 gr H380 load is pushing that bullet way too hard. That is especially too hard if your SMLE is a 2 groove with 2 very narrow shallow grooves. If you are bent on using H380 then drop the load down to 28 gr and use a dacron filler. If that shoots ok then work up in 1 gr increments (using at least 5 shot groups) until accuracy goes south again. Some where in there you may find a reasonably accurate load. In reality there are many better proven powders to use with cast bullets in the 303.

If I sound condescending I am not, please excuse me but I am just being straight forward with you. Many times, on this forum, some want to use what they have and expect it to work. It just isn't that way. Many times some things just don't work. There is a reason why many cartridge/bullet combinations do not have data for many powders listed. You may be finding that reason with h380 in your 303.


Here is a Link to a PDF file for the Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook #3 Larry recommended above. Recommend you down load the entire pdf file to your computer, hard drive, thumb drive and keep it so if it disappears some day you still have it.

http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Bullet%20Casting/Lyman%20Cast%20Bullet%20Handbook%20-%203rd%20Edition%20-%201980%20-%20Reduce.pdf

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

you need to shoot at a larger target when starting with these unknowns.

One time, when I shot my Custom T-38 Jap for the first time with cast boolits, the POI was 30" low at 100yds with reduced load of a faster burning powder, but I had a good grouping.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Do you have any 2400 ?

[3rdTennCoC]

I have been recommended 2400 but cannot find any in stock right now in an size I can afford, it's all 5 and 8 pound containers that I see (being a broke college student sucks)

[robg]

start with a light load and work up slowly .i find with a gas check 1800fps works well.without a gas check i try to keep below 1200fps.my favourite powder for lead boolits is 2400.

[LenH]

I found that shooting cast in a rifle is a whole different animal. I tried the whole this is what I have type of powder and per different opinions and recommendations I
have tried many different powders. I have bought powders that the Lyman cast bullet book said were accurate loads and it was a waste of $40. It turned out to be a bad purchase.
I was given some 2400 and tried that and found a sweet spot and it is a manageable load and a very accurate combo.

Getting the wrong bullet can be a problem. I have been chasing this thing for about 4 years and changing bullet and finding the right combo can be madding to say the least.
BTW if you shoot reduced loads with cast, you can shoot nearly all day and not rattle the fillings in your teeth.

[chutesnreloads]

Agree with a bigger backer to see where you are hitting
I have a 8mm mauser that needs the sights set for 400 meters to hit to point of aim with cast
Shooting without a gas check will most likely make finding an accurate load more difficult
Suggest you spend a LOT of time reading through the stickies here
Getting educated will save a lot of wasted shooting time and precious resources

[Larry Gibson]

Does the barrel have 2 or 5 grooves?

[3rdTennCoC]

It is a 5 groove rifling

What is a recipe I can try for bullet hardness?
What part pure to what part lino?
Would cream of wheat be an acceptable filler material?
The only other powders I use right now are black powder and hp38 if theres any good loads for those too.

[quilbilly]

If you were shooting at over 2000 fps with a boolit with the shank designed for a gas check, no wonder there were problems. Strange and wonderful things can happen when one tries that combination including leading. As Rob said, without the gas check I would keep the velocity below 1250 fps if that fast. Red Dot is often my powder of choice for plain base low velocity loads in either my 30/30 or 308's and the boolits I cast for those loads are designed as plain base. 5744 is also a good powder for those low velocity loads but that powder is harder to find than Red Dot.

[3rdTennCoC]

I will try to order some gas checks and retry some loads with 2400 if I can find some in stock, I am going to the range this weekend so perhaps ill try the low velocity black powder loads I have first, those should have little if any leading issues, there loaded to 45g of 2f with some softer cast bullets, I believe #2 alloy

I am interested in giving the load that Larry mentioned a try, loaded up a few of those tonight, 28g of h380 with a light filler to just hold down the powder with the #2 alloy boolits.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

It is a 5 groove rifling

What is a recipe I can try for bullet hardness?
What part pure to what part lino?
Would cream of wheat be an acceptable filler material?
The only other powders I use right now are black powder and hp38 if theres any good loads for those too.


I will try to order some gas checks and retry some loads with 2400 if I can find some in stock, I am going to the range this weekend so perhaps ill try the low velocity black powder loads I have first, those should have little if any leading issues, there loaded to 45g of 2f with some softer cast bullets, I believe #2 alloy

I am interested in giving the load that Larry mentioned a try, loaded up a few of those tonight, 28g of h380 with a light filler to just hold down the powder with the #2 alloy boolits.

I try to avoid using fillers in centerfire ammo, it just complicates things that don't need to be that complicated.
Also, I wouldn't use a particle/granular type filler (like COW) in a bottle necked case.
Here is some good reading.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers

[3rdTennCoC]

I only used the light filler because I've heard of powder position sensitivity and I think I've also heard that some reduced loads can be position sensitive and cause high pressure spikes, educate me if I am misinformed

[quilbilly]

Some powders are position sensitive while others are not. Slower burning powders often are position sensitive in rifle cases while faster burners like Unique, Red Dot, and even Bullseye don't seem to be. It has been my experience with slower powders that as long as your load density is above 55-60%, even the position sensitive ones seem to burn just fine. 5744 is well known to be not position sensitive even at load densities below 30%. On the other hand, I have found that Trail Boss is very position sensitive at any load much less than 75% resulting in wild velocity and pressure variations. A good book to have to make load density calculations easy is the Nosler Reloading Manual. The problem with the faster burning powders is that loads are often so small that it is easy to make a mistake such as a double charge therefore great care must be taken such as inspecting each charged case like looking down into it with a flashlight before pressing in the boolit. One example I have is my 270 Win which likes a load of 12.4 gr of Red Dot (no filler needed) so I visually inspect each case with a borescope for powder level before installing the boolit. I have well used erasers on all my pencils.

[charlie b]

Before trying fillers for anything try shooting without fillers, especially when you find loads in Lyman's cast bullet handbook.

I have found in the ones I shoot that loads with fillers are less accurate than those with fillers, BUT, it depends on cartridge, powder, fill density and bullet weight (and probably some others I have missed). Most of my loads are medium velocity (1800-2100fps) and are rifle powders, not pistol. I reserve pistol powders for subsonic loads in my rifle.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I don't know what light filler is?
Did you read the Thread I linked to? there is lots education there ;)

[Larry Gibson]

3rdTennCoC

It is a 5 groove rifling

Should do well with cast.

What is a recipe I can try for bullet hardness?
What part pure to what part lino?

I suggest a 6 parts lead to 3 part lino (6 lbs lead to 3 lbs lino) then add 2% tin (2.9 ounces to the 9 lbs). That will give you and excellent well balanced ternary alloy most useful for 90+ % of cast bullet shooting.

Would cream of wheat be an acceptable filler material?

No, COW will raise psi dramatically and can cause problems. Use a dacron filler. If you can't make it to a wallyword or fabric shop to buy some "batting" [polyester which is dacron] any old pillow or stuffed toy will have it in it as the stuffing. Use just enough to fill the air space between the powder and bullet base. There is a sticky on the use of a filler.