Just a thought on sizers

[Acorn]

It seems like some have issues with mis-alignment in their sizer with the top punch not lining up concentric to the die.
What about a magnetic plate where the top punch goes and a top punch with the stud machined off stuck to it?
That would allow the top punch to align itself to the bore of the sizing die.

[45DUDE]

Sizing dies are larger at the top so unless the boolit is cast wrong and the top punch is correct it should work. A bad mold with an out of round base would give a problem but with a little effort you could file or mill the mold flat.

[Winger Ed.]

The only problem I've ever had like that was being in a hurry, and not setting it in the die straight
or the rod in the die being adjusted too low or up too high. There's sort of a 'sweet spot' for it.
If it starts down in there crooked, I doubt if a floating top punch would help.

[charlie b]

I have tried to 'float' a top punch. Didn't work for me. There is too much friction for it to slide once you apply pressure at all and the side force generated is too far away from the base area to give good leverage. I tried polishing things and using some slick stuff and still didn't help.

One of the advantages of sizing with a top punch is that it acts to center the bullet as it enters the sizer. This is an important feature. If your sizer is screwed up enough that this is not happening then I'd try to fix it.

[Greg S]

What type of sizer?

[Bazoo]

My experiences are much the same as Charlie B. I have though had success using a RN top punch like the 374, highly polished, to self center on the lee 309-150-F and others for which I didn't have a correct punch. It rounds the meplat a bit but it does so uniformly enough for my tastes.

I ain't had good luck with a flat punch either. Upon inspection I noticed slight sizing inconsistency.

[largom]

If your sizer has a set screw to hold top punch in, throw it away. A SMAL dab of grease on stem will hold it in.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

The magnet idea would work with short fat boolits, but I don't think it'll work with long skinny boolits.
Personally, I won't own a lube-sizer that isn't in alignment...Life is just too short.

[beagle]

This was discussed a while back on here or on the old Shooters site. We kicked it around for about a month and reached the consensus that because of financial constraints, we were beating a dead horse.

Someone more computer savvy than I am may be able to retrieve these threads and post them. Below is the gist of the discussion as I recall it:

The item under discussion was the Lyman #450 sizer. The RCBS is a little better but not by much and the #45 is a little worse.

One of the primary problems is that the housing is a casting. This has to be ground to acceptable dimensions to accommodate other parts of the sizer. This induces operating tolerances.

Fit of the sizer die is weak in both brands. The #45 sizer die mounting was even weaker with the setscrew mounting.

Fit of the top punch is weak. Many are a loose and sloppy fit as they have to be to be easily changeable.

In the Saeco, their system in both instances are better and eliminate much of this play.

The ram that rides on the reservoir is another source of loose tolerances.

The entrance to the sizing die is better under the later Lymans but in earlier dies was a great weakness in getting a straight bullet.

In fact, the designs of both Lymans and the RCBS lubricator sizers are full of tolerances that have to be there because of the lube, design and the requirement to accept a number of different sizer dies and top punches. This means a sloppy piece of equipment that turns out sloppy bullets.

Is there a solution? There sure is but you’re not going to like it.

A stainless steel milled housing. Consensus was a horizontally mounted unit with screw in dies and screw in top punches with a separately mounted lube reservoir that filled the milled housing.

Why wouldn’t we like that. Money, honey and a lot of it. Hard to produce and no backward compatibility with dies and top punches.

So after many minds and a lot of tooth gnashing, we decided that we had something that worked that was reasonably priced and backward compatible so leave well enough alone.

There are alternatives. The 310 tool with a cake kutter and a lube pan produces better, more precise bullets but is messy. Lee’s push through dies do well precision wise but lack the lubing capability.

The bottom line is we can’t get there from here. We might as well make do with what we have and be satisfied with it./beagle

[Bazoo]

I think a person with a good feel for things will produce better bullets from a lubesizer than your average rube.

[David2011]

Beagle, why would the housing need to be built from stainless steel? Is there a metallurgical advantage? Stainless isn’t all it’s assumed to be by some. High quality cast iron and forged steel are very good materials.

[charlie b]

I would think it is the cost of the forge dies and casting molds more than the material. And then there is the cost of the ovens and such.

[RickinTN]

I had the same issue with a new RCBS machine when I first started casting. I fixed the issue. I only size in a push through sizing die, most of them from Lee. I lube in my lubesizer with a die which is .001 to .003" over sized. Gas checks are also installed with the push through dies. It's another step but my bullets aren't sized leaning sideways.
Good Luck all,
Rick

[F_L]

I started with a 450. I ditched it when I changed to powder coating and went with the NOE push thru dies on a Rockchucker. I can't prove it but believe the push thru dies are more precise. I don't see how you can push a bullet all the way through a die without it being straight.

[wmitty]

After ruining many boolits in my Lyman 45s I size in the lee push thru dies and lube in the ‘45. The set screw arrangement on the Lyman pretty much insures eccentric misalignment of the die body with the nose punch. If a three setscrew setup at 120 degrees could be worked out for either the die body or nose punch could be worked out, the result might allow aligning the longitudinal axis of each.

[dtknowles]

I have shot three under 1" 5 shot groups at 100 yards using cast bullets sized in an RCBS Lubrisizer in one day at the range, I shot total 8 groups and none were bigger than 2". If your bullets are unsymmetrical enough that you can tell by eye you do need to fix things. Lubrisizers can make good bullets.

There are a couple ways to float the top punch, one already suggested using grease or bullet lube to hold the punch in the ram another is to use top punches that have an o-ring on the shaft the goes in the ram. These are sloppy solutions that don't address the root problem that is the die not being aligned with the top punch. Try starting with the top punch firmly anchored in the ram using the set screw. Then tighten the die with the die nut into place with the ram down on the die nut and the top punch into the die. It the top punch is a loose fit in the die then wrap it with tape, do not overlap the ends of the tape, leave a small gap. If you need more than one thickness of tape, use two pieces with the gaps 180 deg. apart. If you have that much gap are you sure you are using the right top punch?

Now that we have the top punch fixed and tight, the die tight and aligned to the top punch the slop in the ram to ram bore is the only thing that should keep you from pushing straight down the center of the die.

When you put a bullet in the die, how far in does the bullet go and is it sitting on the bottom punch? Is the bottom punch clean? The bottom punch stop should be adjusted so that is at the point where an unsized bullet (or gas check) just starts to be tight in the die. This is so a bullet sitting on the bottom punch is centered in the die. Now the die, bullet and top punch are all centered and if the bottom punch is clean the bullet should be straight so that when the top punch comes down it touches the bullet evenly all around the nose. Press the bullet just a little bit into the die and back out. The witness mark from the top punch on the bullet should be even. If not you need to look for the problem. Is the bullet's base even, does it have flash, does it have a big nub from the sprue.

This should make your bullets fine.

Tim

[beagle]

Think when this was discussed, the ease of cleanup was the answer. The consensus was unpainted. Stainless may or may not be the answer but when you're "what iffing", you go big./beagle


Beagle, why would the housing need to be built from stainless steel? Is there a metallurgical advantage? Stainless isn’t all it’s assumed to be by some. High quality cast iron and forged steel are very good materials.

[beagle]

The push through dies are the way to go for precision. But, still back to base first for lubing and you're back in trouble.

We discovered problems with nose bending on long .25 cast. Was sitting at the bench one day and laid down a RCBS 25-120-SP in a piece of plexiglass. It rolled and you could see the "wobble". After looking close, long bullets were just about all bent to some degree. This is when we made an adapter to take lubricator/sizer dies that would screw into a Rockchucker. Made a pusher setup like Lee's. Worked really nice but still, there is a lack of lube./beagle


I started with a 450. I ditched it when I changed to powder coating and went with the NOE push thru dies on a Rockchucker. I can't prove it but believe the push thru dies are more precise. I don't see how you can push a bullet all the way through a die without it being straight.

[USSR]

I be loving my "sloppy bullets" coming out of my Lyman 450. They don't seem to know that they're not supposed to shoot good.

Don