What a mess...

[azshootercastlead]

My wife gave me a brand new Marlin 1895 in 45-70 for Christmas. I proceded to cast some 405 Gr cold water quenched WW bullets and loaded them with 40Gr H4195. My mistake in not buying gas check molds. Went to sight it in and and first couple of shots were pretty close then the accuracy went to pot. I shot about 10 more shots and took a look down the barrel. I could not beleive the lead build up. Last shots were like a scatter gun. Anyway I get home and it took 2 hours of scrubbing with lead remover and a bronze brush to get it out. Flakes of lead were coming out of the barrel. I backed the load off to 31 Gr now which according to the book should be in the 1400-1500 fps range and will try sighting in again tomorrow. Lesson learned.....

[454PB]

I had the same experience with plain base boolits in two Marlin microgroove barrels, one a .444 and the other a 45/70. I eventually attained so-so accuracy, but the final solution was to use gas checked boolits.

[45 2.1]

Your bullets were too small in diameter. I usually shoot 0.460" to 0.462" bullets of straight wheel weights up to 1800 fps when I want something that fast. I don't want any more recoil than they produce out of the rifles I shoot. PB bullets will shoot well if they are large enough and you protect the base a little (this can be solved by useing the right powder also).

[Maven]

My experience with Marlin MG is different than yours. In the .45-70, I get NO leading with plain based CB's if I hold the velocity to no more than 1,350 - 1,400fps. (Beyond that it's too painful to shoot from a rest.) Indeed I returned a mold to Veral Smith so that he could remove the gas check shank as I wasn't looking for high speed. All of my CB's are sized to .459" and accuracy is 2 m.o.a. or less if I do my part. Here's an exception, the Lee 405gr. FP did lead my bbl. (I've since given it away), but the smaller 340gr. FP never has.

Btw, I have most of a box of gas checks (.45cal. rifle) for sale if anyone's interested.

[45 2.1]

Are they old Lyman non crimp style or the newer crimp style?

[9.3X62AL]

Welcome to the board, AZ Shooter.

Again the subject of cast boolits in MG bores comes up. There are enough success stories out there to convince me that accuracy in MG with castings is certainly possible, but it takes some tweaking to get there at times. I've had fine accuracy from a Marlin Model 62 x 30 Carbine with the Lee Soup Cans (113 grain FN/GC), so don't throw in the towel until you try the fatter boolits or a gas check design. Or both, perhaps.

The mainstream moldmakers don't do many favors for shooters of 45 caliber rifles these days. Lyman and RCBS molds produce castings that run between .457" and .459", and that fatter diameter is at the start point for most barrels. A "custom" moldmaker like Mountain Molds or NEI might be the best answer. That will be my resolution for my Ruger #1 that runs .459" throat and groove. with 8 grooves .005" deep.

[Ricochet]

I've shot plain based cast bullets in my Microgroove 1895 at up to 1800 FPS or so (405 grain bullet over 54 grains of 3031, a tightly compressed charge) with reasonable accuracy and only a trace of gray in the bore. I think the key is a good tight bullet. I usually shoot them as cast, with no sizing. My Marlin's groove diameter is .458". Most of my bullets are about .460".

The above load is too punishing for me nowadays. I've outgrown the need to magnumize everything, and I load it about like a blackpowder .45-90 with 325 or 340 grain bullets at about 1500 FPS mostly.

[felix]

The only thing bad about microgrooves is that you have to have a lube that does not accumulate from shot to shot. Yes, experience has shown that the typical Marlin microgroove bore is too large for most stock mold boolit diameters. ... felix

[44man]

A question if you please! Is the rifle micro groove or the new Ballard rifling?

[azshootercastlead]

A question if you please! Is the rifle micro groove or the new Ballard rifling?


The rifle has a Ballard and not micro-grove barrel. The bullets are .459-.460 right from the mold. It is the Lee 405 Gr mold. Weighing them on the scale they come in at about 415GR. I only let them sit for a day so they were probably not as hard as they might have been. I read it takes a few days for th bulelts to reach max hardness. Any and all advice is appreciated as this is my first try at shooting these big bullets.

[45 2.1]

The rifle has a Ballard and not micro-grove barrel. The bullets are .459-.460 right from the mold. It is the Lee 405 Gr mold. Weighing them on the scale they come in at about 415GR. I only let them sit for a day so they were probably not as hard as they might have been. I read it takes a few days for th bulelts to reach max hardness. Any and all advice is appreciated as this is my first try at shooting these big bullets.

Try some SR 4759 (not4756) at about 23 gr. with the bullet unsized and lubed with LEE liquid alox. Crimp into the crimp groove lightly. Just air cooling these bullets would work better for you with that particular mold.

[nelson133]

For lead removal without hours of scrubbing, try using an electric bore cleaner. 20-30 minutes and you'll be amazed. It's not necessary to spend the big bucks to get one, you can make one yourself for $10 - $20 bucks, the plans are available on the internet What I do is take a 3/16 steel rod and wrap electrical tape every 8 to 10 inches, Either use a cork or rubber stopper to plug the chamber, either drilling a hole in the end of the stopper for the rod, or sharpening the rod and pushing it into the stopper. Plug the breech with the stopper, with the rod sticking out the muzzle, the tape will keep the rod from touching the barrel. Place the gun muzzle up and fill the barrel twith a mixture of 1/4 ammonia, 1/4 vinegar, and 1/2 water and hook up a power source to create a current from the barrel to the rod. I use a cheapie 2 amp battery trickle charger, but I have read that some people have gotten by by soldering a couple of wires to aligator clips and to the + and - poles of an old d-cell flashlight. Run it for 20 to 40 minutes and see what comes out. The fluid will foam up, so either don't fill the narrel to the top or use a piece of tubing or somesuch to extend the length of the barrel. pour out the fluid and run a dry patch down the barrel.

[cbrick]

nelson133,

Great post, I did a cut & paste & saved it in a Word document. I'll build one of these & try it just cause I need more toys to play with.

Rick

[omgb]

If I may suggest.....I had a leading problem that I solved completely in two steps. First, I fire lapped the barrel using the LBT fire Lap kit. It took maybe 20 rounds to get the bore glass smooth. Then I switched over to LBT Soft Blue. That combination lets me load upwords of 1600 fps with the Lyman 520 grain Postel and AA 5744 and not have a leading problem. You may want to try using 28-32 grains of 5744 behind that Lee bullet and see if your problem abates. If not, I'd try the lapping method. BTW, the electric lead removal process really does work. I built mine using a disposable flashlight. however, the Lewis lead Remover from Brownells works very easily too.

R J Talley

[David R]

Cbrick,

Welcome to the cast boolit shooters Club.

Didjya slug your bore?


I caution using Amonia in a barrel for a longer peroid of time than wiping with a patch.

It could eat up your barrel.............Nasty stuff.

David

[Roudy]

A method I've used successfully to remove lead from a bore is to use an undersized old bore brush and wrap brass wool around the brush to get a tight fit in the bore. Then scrub well with a good bore cleaner. The brass wool won't harm your bore but it is harder than the lead and will remove at least most of the lead.

Haven't tried the 'electric' method but it sounds like it will do a better job.

[Bass Ackward]

AZ,

I would say that you have received a myriad of options to try. The only thing I will offer at this point is try not to get discouraged with the process. Clean you gun a little at a time so you can remain calm and patient. Then restart the process using a logical thought process to address the problem.

The biggest .... problem with how you started out was dealing with the emotional part of it. Once this is overcome, you can and will move ahead. If you decide that this seems to much information to deal with, pick one of the posters that you feel you can relate to and correspond with him privately until you get moving forward.

[Ron.D]

Bass. Very sage advice, do you have a couch? maybe the wife and I could swing by there the next time we're down that way.

[Ricochet]

Many ammonium salts are highly corrosive, but plain ammonia water (ammonium hydroxide) isn't particularly corrosive to steel. Very useful for removing copper and nickel jacket fouling.

[drinks]

It has been nearly 50 years since basic chemistry class and at least 35 years since I did any electroplating, but the electrical lead removal process sounds as though it is an electroplating operation, an electrolite , a cathode , an anode and a dc current source.
To operate properly,the dc voltage polarity MUST be correct.
I do not know what the activity tables say lead and steel are, but the sacrificial electrode must be the lead, otherwise, you will be plating steel on top of the lead in the barrel.

[Captain Midnight]

It has been nearly 50 years since basic chemistry class and at least 35 years since I did any electroplating, but the electrical lead removal process sounds as though it is an electroplating operation, an electrolite , a cathode , an anode and a dc current source.
To operate properly,the dc voltage polarity MUST be correct.
I do not know what the activity tables say lead and steel are, but the sacrificial electrode must be the lead, otherwise, you will be plating steel on top of the lead in the barrel.

Iron (Fe) is higher in the periodic table than Lead (Pb). Pb will migrate to a steel rod but Fe won't move the other way. If you get the polarity wrong, the setup just won't work. Reverse the alligator clips. .............. Captain

[MGySgt]

A method I've used successfully to remove lead from a bore is to use an undersized old bore brush and wrap brass wool around the brush to get a tight fit in the bore. Then scrub well with a good bore cleaner...........

Yep Works real well without the bore cleaner. I think it actually works better by just using a dry patch before and then use the wrapped bore brush dry - Take the brass scouring pad apart, down into individual strands and make it tight in the bore.

I believe that by not using solvents you actually get a 'seasoning' in the barrel that helps keep the leading down.

I actually use a old 50 cal in my 45/70 and 44 mag. About 10 to 15 strokes down and back and ALL lead is removed.

I tried some Lyman #2 and a plain base with 2400 in my 44 and it looked like lead city after about 10 rounds. Less then 5 minutes and all the lead was gone.

Works for me!

Drew

[nelson133]

That's something I left out of the original post, the polarity has to be correct. The current must flow from the barrel to the rod. Much more than lead will be removed, i.e. copper and powder fouling for example. Outers makes and sells these cleaners, but I figured that most everybody here is like me, I want to maximize the amount I spend on guns, so I economize where I can.
Collecting and shooting the military surplus rifle is a website that has a lot of examples of these homemade electric cleaners in their articles section, along with other cheap ways of doing what we do. Foe example, a wax type resizing lube available in most hardware stores for $6.00 per quart instead of $2 per 2 ounces.

[JDL]

FWIW, I have read that if the currant is too high with the electric bore cleaners, it will leech the iron from the barrel. -JDL

[omgb]

Yes, it will. However, the design I found on line uses two D cells and the total current is so small there is no danger.

[David R]

Do you have a link?

Thanks
David

[Hang Fire]

Ah, for the old days, when you could pick up mercury (HG) cheap most any place, plug the breech, point the muzzle up and fill with HG, let it sit, then just pour it back into the bottle for a oh so clean bore.

If I had some HG today, I would not hesitate to use it outdoors for bore cleaning of lead, hard to get it to vaporize at ambient temperatures. But, at over a 100 bucks a pound commercially, that is a bit expensive.

[Hang Fire]

nelson133

My experience is very limited and claim no expertise, so, am likely out of my element, but, sounds like a plating process is taking place. Is it possible to get into more noble/less noble metals here? If the wrong anode (rod) was chosen, could one actually transfer rod metal to the bbl, or, even if correct anode, (bbl) bbl metal to the rod, or into solution?

[omgb]

Here's two files. One a cheapo version using a flashlight the other, a delux home version. Woops, the delux version is a PDF that takes 450 kb. If you PM me I can send it. It's more than a little interesting.

[omgb]

Use this with the schematic I posted above.



A Homemade Electronic Copper Fouling Remover
Most shooters are familiar with the Outers FoulOut ™ electronic copper fouling remover that will remove unbelievable amounts of crud form a "clean" barrel. It is quite easy to build your own simple version of this handy device. You will need:

A cheap 2 or 3 cell flashlight
A length of 1/8" steel rod about 4" longer than your barrel (TIG stainless welding rod works well)
Rubber "O" rings of 1/8" ID and various external diameters or pieces of 1/8" ID plastic tubing cut in small rings, or small slices of shrink tubing of various sizes that will fit.
A rubber stopper that will tightly fit your chamber
2 Alligator clips.

You can bore a 3/16" hole about 1/2" deep in the narrow end of the rubber stopper to help serve as a rod center. Install a series of "O" rings about every 6" or use the shrink tubing to build up small rings around the rod that will slide down the bore. These will center the rod and prevent the rod from contacting the barrel and shorting out.

Bore a hole in the bottom of the flash light and solder a black wire to the negative terminal. Next bore a hole around where the positive terminal is on the lamp side of the switch--frequently this is the side of the reflector. Solder the wire to that point. (What you are doing is basically ignoring the switch and using the gun/solution/rod circuitry as a switch.) A basic schematic is shown below.



Put the flashlight together and make sure the switch is in the off position. Attach the alligator clips to the wires.

If you are electrically inclined you can add a potentiometer and a milliamp meter so you can control the current more closely. You ideally want to keep the voltages below 3 volts and the current no more than about 100 - 200 milliamps. I have had several reports that a power supply meant for R/C model planes that has constant voltage and adjustable milliamp output with a meter can be used. One of the multi-voltage "AC adapters" from places like Radio Shack have also been successfully used.

Make your cleaning solution of:

1 part white vinegar
1 part household ammonia
2 parts distilled water

It is best to remove the barreled action from the stock for cleaning. For best results clean and then degrease the bore with a commercial "gun scrubber" or automotive brake cleaner. Plug the chamber with the rubber stopper and carefully insert the rod down the bore and insure it is seated in the hole in the stopper. Using a dropper or a syringe fill the bore with the cleaning solution and the attach the black wire to the rod and red wire to the gun. If the gun is dirty the flashlight will glow but not at full power. If the flashlight immediately glows full power the rod is not centered in the bore and has caused a short. Allow the unit to work for 45 min or so, disconnect the leads and carefully pull the rod out of the bore. DO NOT ALLOW TO RUN OVERNIGHT as the current in this unit is higher than that in the Outer's unit! The accumulated copper fouling can be removed from the rod with fine steel wool. Drain the barrel, remove the stopper and dry the bore and chamber. Run a couple of patches with bore cleaner on them through the bore and chamber to prevent any after rust and you're done. Those of you with a background in metal plating may want to contribute your own solution recipes. Send them to me by clicking here.

36" long TIG welding rod in stainless steel are available from local welding shop. Get 3/32" and 1/8" diameters at a cost of about $1.25 each. Ideally you want a rod about 1/2 to 2/3 of the bore diameter.

Thanks to Robert Schaedel, et. al. for this tip.