Do you prefer slower and heavier, or lighter and faster?

[Idaho45guy]

Speaking in terms of self-defense ammo.

I got a deal on some 200 grain Speer Gold Dots for .40 S&W and 10mm and just loaded up a batch in .40 S&W that supposedly go only 857 fps using 231. The same in 10mm goes just over 1000 fps.

I'm sure both are fine for self-defense.

Usually I just let the pistol pick the bullet weight it likes and go with that.

Curious as to what other folks prefer.

[M-Tecs]

Lighter and faster tend to have less over penetration and quicker stops.

[Idaho45guy]

Lighter and faster tend to have less over penetration and quicker stops.

Huh. You would think that would be true with the heavier bullets. But, I tried to review the bullet debates and just gave up. Too much arguing and math for my taste.

I've heard that lighter bullets in pistols recoil more than heavier bullets, which is the opposite of what I've found to be true with rifles. I'm not recoil sensitive at all with pistols, so I've never noticed either way. With rifles, I can definitely feel a difference with the heavier bullets.

[M-Tecs]

Huh. You would think that would be true with the heavier bullets. But, I tried to review the bullet debates and just gave up. Too much arguing and math for my taste.

.

Do a penetration comparison between 230 grain 45 ball and a 185 hollow point 45 ACP. The lighter fast one expands way more and penetrates less. If neither one expands it not as clear cut.

Recoil is highly subjective but most people tolerate a heavier slower push verse sharper slap that the higher velocity tends to produce.

[bmortell]

pretty sure this is one of the best user friendly data sets ever.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#40SW
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/10mm-auto-self-defense-ammo-ballistic-gel-tests/

the 200gr might be made for 10mm speeds far as expansion goes since there werent any in the 40 test maybe someone knows what there designed for ?

[Idaho45guy]

pretty sure this is one of the best user friendly data sets ever.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#40SW
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/10mm-auto-self-defense-ammo-ballistic-gel-tests/

the 200gr might be made for 10mm speeds far as expansion goes since there werent any in the 40 test maybe someone knows what there designed for ?

Great link!

I only use (can get or have on hand) Speer Gold Dots, Hornady XTPs, and RMR MPRs in .40 S&W and 9mm.

Looks like the 200gr Gold Dots I just bought are excellent in the 10mm, but untested in .40 S&W at slower speeds.

[bmortell]

i used that for my 357 ammo. i just sorted page by diameter and picked the black copper bullets since they were the biggest consistently in the right spot in both 2 and 4 inch. maybe dont matter much but it was much easier than the time i spent thinking about brands lol

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I have 125 gr. XTP's in my 3" Model 60. Light gun, lighter bullets. 124 gr. in my M&P 9mm. When I carried a 1911 it was 230 gr. XTP's. All plenty good for thin skinned critters.

[Forrest r]

Odd never really thought about light or heavy bullets. Always looked for +/- 1000fps minimum from whatever I use. Doesn't matter if it's a snubnosed revolver, short bbl'd pistol, etc. After that bullet style/design/weight would come into play.

[Petrol & Powder]

There's no free lunch in physics. Everything is a compromise
Given a limitation on pressure, a fixed diameter and a length of time to apply that pressure to a projectile; you're going to be down to the weight of that projectile as one of your few remaining variables.
At that point you can trade velocity for weight or weight for velocity.

There is no magic answer or some way to escape the physics involved.

So given those inescapable limitations, we seek the best possible compromise that achieves MOST of the traits that we want.
We can trade mass for velocity or velocity for mass; to a point. Somewhere in there we will have a range of acceptable traits. There are obvious limits to that range.

So assuming we are only dealing with acceptable pressures for a cartridge; The first criteria should be: Will it be 100% reliable in the gun? This is an absolute deal breaker and anything that isn't 100% reliable is immediately rejected.

The next criteria is: What do I want to achieve ?
Do I want a certain level of penetration in a known substance (like say ballistic gelatin?).
Do I want it to penetrate some known barrier before penetrating a certain amount of gelatin?
Do I want it to penetrate a certain amount of gelatin but not more than another amount of gelatin (say penetrate 12" but never 18" ?)
Do I want the best possible accuracy and I don't care about penetration?
The list goes on and on.

So getting back to the OP's question on preference of heavy & slow verses fast & light ? The answer is a great, big, "It depends on what I am trying to accomplish" !

[onelight]

Good post Petrol & Powder !
And when you add in the all the inconsistencies in a hunting or defense situation you make your best guess :)

[MOA]

I've gone to Inceptor's 60 grain loading for my 380's for SD loads. Will get the 9mm in 65 grain to try along with the 135 grain for my 45's too.

https://i.postimg.cc/PfFSpDN5/20190525_125844.jpg (https://postimg.cc/V5nq2djx)

https://i.postimg.cc/sx8mtkbh/20190526_085721.jpg (https://postimg.cc/m1Y795LL)

I'm going for the lighter and faster in my trials. I've shot the heavier and slower in the past, and loaded accordingly, but I'm open to try new things too.

[osteodoc08]

I base my principles off myself: slow and heavy.

In all seriousness, I prefer
9mm-124gr class
40S&W 165-180gr class
45 ACP 230gr class

Seems to be the best compromise between weight and velocity

Just remember Clint Smith saying:
Handguns put holes IN people
Rifles put holes THROUGH people
Shotguns with the right load at the right range will physically take a chunk of **** off your opponent and throw that **** on the floor

[Brass&Lead]

Slower and heavier for the easy to handle firearms. Faster and lighter for the more difficult to handle.

[downzero]

Lighter and faster tend to have less over penetration and quicker stops.

Over penetration is a myth.

The primary feature of a handgun bullet needed to make sure it works is to ensure it reliably has ENOUGH penetration.

[GhostHawk]

For home defence inside the house its 12 ga and 7.5 shot. At inside the living room ranges shot size does not make much difference.

The difference being a 00 buckshot could in theory go through several rooms and into a neighbors. Where 7.5 shot is unlike to penitrate more than one wall. My walls being plaster and lathe with 5/8ths sheetrock over the top. So I don't have to worry about a stray shot killing my loved ones or a neighbor.

Outside the house I prefer big and heavy. 230 to 310 grains. Speed is not a big issue. You just need to know the rainbow.

Small and fast is easy, but IMO not as effective. I used to be a member of the small and fast.
But time and experience showed me a better way, for me at least.
Not trying to convert anyone else.

However I have not completely give up on small and fast. I like shooting small caliber pistols. .32sw long, .22mag, .22lr. All have their place, and tend to be more accurate.
Not to mention easier on old hands and wrists.

[ioon44]

I usually carry lighter and faster, whatever you carry be sure to practice with it.

[Led]

Depends on caliber and action type (revolver or auto loader). One solution does not fit all situations. I agree on practice with what you carry. This is why I load my own for carry guns. It's the only way I can afford to practice with what I carry.

Thanks,
Stephen

[Elmer Fudd]

I base bullet choice on performance, regardless of what caliber/cartridge I am shooting. I want enough speed to get a bullet to do what I want, whether that is expand, come apart, or penetrate deeply. I want light enough weight to get that speed.
For me, in a 10mm, I use a cast flat nose gas check 200-ish grain bullet for backcountry carry in bear or cat country, at max speeds (around 12-1300 fps) of air cooled wheel weights. Same gun, in town, I would prefer the same bullet, but in HP trim, again around 12-1300 fps. I would shoot whitetail with the HP version, based on observed performance in gallon jugs of water. Using a 40, I would opt for a lighter bullet if I could. If not, I would use the same bullets, just 300 or so fps slower.
In a 9, I carry Hornady Critical Defense, because of the proven performance in tests. I wouldn't reach for that 9 load in bear country, but I would take it over water balloons or a stick.

[Groo]

Groo here
Depends,, I like 230gr 45 acp [but shoot light weight guns]
In 9mm,115s,38 spec 90-110 to 125, 357 125 usually, don't like 40, 10mm for sd 150 to 180 ,
Always trying for 1000 fps [impact] to insure deformation.
Big bore , 800 to 900 flat nose.
Light fast HP, heaver and slow flat nose.

[44MAG#1]

In 40 S&W I carry 200 gr XTP's loaded to slightly over 900 fps from a Glock M27 or a cast 200 gr at 930 fps from the M27 Glock. Use the same loads in a XDm 40 S&W too.
In a 10 MM I carry 200 gr XTP's loaded to a higher velocity than the 40 S&W. Why not, if I wanted 40 S&W power I would use the 40 S&W.
In a 45 Auto I carry 230 FMJFP or 230 grain cast FP.

That is just what I do. To each his own.

[country gent]

Carry what shoots best for you in your firearm accuracy is king. a loud miss isnt as effective as a solid hit with anther round. I have carried 200 grn HPs in 45 for years from the speer flying ashtray to golden sabers. In 40 cal its 165 grns in 40 S&W and 180 grn Hydra shocks in 10 mm. 357 /38 is more dependent on gun, in true snubbies especially the ultra light weights its a 38spl +P with 125-135 grn in these even a 148 wadcutter may be good. in the larger guns I may go 140-158 grn. In the 32s I go with the heavier weights to aid penetration.

One way to see what your getting is to hunt some small game like woodchucks and open them up after shooting see the damage caused, Ive shot chucks with most of the above and one thats a early hybrid defense round the Glasser saftey slug ( very devestating wound channels), Hydra shocks are also good,

Do some testing and see what works for you

[M-Tecs]

Over penetration is a myth.

The primary feature of a handgun bullet needed to make sure it works is to ensure it reliably has ENOUGH penetration.

Having shot several deer with medium/lower speed SWC in 45 Colt in 1873 Old Army pistols its a myth I would not try to prove my standing on the other side of a deer when I shoot one with that type of load.

The challenge of using most handgun cartridge's for self defense ensuring the quickest possible stop.

[GregLaROCHE]

Since there isn’t any hard data that says one is better than the other, maybe an in between load would be best. However, when carrying a 44mag for brown bear protection, I always opted for the heaviest bullet available.

[Jtarm]

Just like me: slow & heavy.

Expansion is not always predictable and light, high velocity bullets deflect easily.

This point was driven home to me by an instructor who’s an ex-LEO. He once shot a felon with a 9mm. The felon was almost 90 degrees to him. The bullet entered just under the collar bone, deflected down and exited on the far side of his abdomen, then completely penetrated his thigh.

The damage? Bandages on all four holes (not even stitches) and released to police custody.

A bullet with a big fat meplat at 800 fps (or slower) performs the same every time:
cuts a a big hole and penetrates in a straight line.

This is based on tests I witnessed live in bare gel after penetrating denim.

As for over-penetration, the tests were almost all .38 special. Federal GMM wadcutters penetrated to almost exactly the same depth as the best-performing +P rounds (around 18”). +Ps that forgot to expand penetrated 24” or more.

A 90-grain Super-Vel went about 5” before fragmenting.

Allegedly, current consensus among the “experts” is with any handgun round from 9mm to .44 mag/.45 Colt, 2-3 rounds to the body are required to achieve a “stop”, hence, caliber is a mostly moot point.

I kinda regret trading off my 325PD now. Loaded with low-velocity full wadcutters, it would’ve been da bomb for a night stand or maybe even carry gun.

Of course, the best use of any handgun is to fight your way to a long gun.

[Good Cheer]

Penetration first and rate of displacement second.

[MT Gianni]

IMO, you are right at the middle between the 40 and 10. I would call Speer and ask them what is the lowest velocity those were designed to open at. If they work in the 40 use them, if they are for a 10 use them there. With cast I prefer slow and heavy with jacketed fast and light. Over penetration is a real consideration there.

[Win94ae]

I like to shoot whatever weight bullet, that gets to 1050fps. I then sight it in at 60 yards; whereas, all my handguns will have similar 0-100 yard exterior ballistics.

[Froogal]

In a self defense situation, most likely you will be up close and personal so velocity really doesn't matter. I want something heavy, with knock down and stopping power.

[Gunslinger1911]

For me, fat and slow. Carried a 1911 45 all my life.
My son learned to shoot with a 1911, pretty good shot too.
Then the PD issued a 40 to him, (they run a pretty hot load, so I'll call that smaller / faster). 40 always seemed "whippy" to me.
The kid LOVES that Sig 40 ! Shoots it like a house afire ! Took high score at qual.
I can't shoot it very well, REALLY nice gun though. The recoil impulse is all wrong for me.

Cutting to the chase, what YOU shoot well is what you should shoot.
We can argue all day about 9/40/45 (I love a good caliber war - I mean debate).
All are 90+% stoppers with good ammo, placement is everything, hence shoot what you shoot best.
But if you pick a 9, be ready for some ribbing. LOL

[gwpercle]

I grew up , a student of the Elmer Keith train of thought and also liked what Jeff Cooper had to say about the 1911 45 acp as proper fighting iron .
Large caliber , slow and heavy works for me .
Gary

[M-Tecs]

Based on actual shooting percentages complied by Marshall and Sanow’s data in handguns the 125 grain JHP 357 has maintained it number one statue since the mid 70's.

http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/Stopping%20Power%20Statistics.htm

http://www.themodernsurvivalist.com/archives/669

https://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

[contender1]

When I read the title of this thread,, I was thinking; "He's talking about the choices of women that Rodney & I prefer. I like them lighter & faster,, and Rod is known for heavier & slower."

Oh well, there's the chuckle for the thread! :D :D

Seriously,, Study a lot of what has been posted in all the above posts. LOTS of excellent info and as noted,, there is not magic formula for all applications.

[str8wal]

I've heard that lighter bullets in pistols recoil more than heavier bullets, which is the opposite of what I've found to be true with rifles.

Don't know where you heard that, but what you found with rifles applies to pistols. Heavier recoils more, and is quite evident by holes in target printing higher with heavier bullets than lighter ones.

[reddog81]

I generally prefer the sweet spot that the cartridges were developed for or slightly on the heavy side.

124 to 140 for 9mm
140 to 158 for .38 Special
200 to 210 for 45 ACP
180 to 200 for .300 Blackout.
That covers about 90% of my shooting.

[357Mag]

Idaho -

Howdy !

For years and years, the #1 one-shot manstopper per law enforcement derived data was the 125JHP Remington .357Mag load.
The second place load was the 125JHP Federal .357Mag load. These eclipsed even the venerable .45ACP 225gr and 185JHP loads.
The 125JHP load eclipsed the heavier 158SWC loads, as regarded dependable one-shot stops.

425ft lb of energy is a fairly decent threshold for minimum energy. "Ball " .45ACP shot from a Govt model 1911 can give this level of energy.
And while all top-rated .357Mag loads could exceed this level, things like .38Spl +P and 9mm+P struggled to come closer to this energy threshold. Also, notably.... these latter 2 cartridges were not highly ranked on ability to provide a one-shot stops.
The 110JHP .357Mag load ranked higher on the list than those latter two.

But..... ability to conceal a controllable .357Mag and more especially..... shoot it well..... makes the choice of going w/ a .357Mag problematic.
With all of the above CCW performance data that's been accrued, the rise in popularity of the .40 S & W comes as no surprise.
The .40 S & W is in large measure, basically a .38-40 updated for modern times. It occupies a space between the .357" cal and larger .45 cal. Popular .40S&W bullet weights also occupy a space between the 125gr .357" cal and 200gr & above bullet weights of the larger calibres. IMHO - this suggests the practical" answer " is.... a middle of the road calibre shooting a middle of the road bullet wt ( of proper design for self-defense ).
And of course, there is now plenty of historical data to support the performance level of the .40 S & W used in a CCW. Not everybodies choice i realize ( not even mine ), but I understand why folks have gone w/ a .40 S & W.


With regards,
357Mag

[memtb]

Heavy and slower......just like my hunting bullets. I want deep penetration, thereby contacting as much bone, organs, tissue as possible! If the target of affections is a 300 + pounder, wearing a heavy leather vest/jacket.......I want the bullet penetrating to and beyond the “sweet-spot”! If I could be guaranteed that my target would be a underweight individual wearing only a tee shirt....I may feel differently! Though many may not agree, I feel that ft/lbs. energy, especially at handgun velocities.....is far overrated. memtb

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Something bigger than a 380 and heavier than 115 grains for me.

[dverna]

pretty sure this is one of the best user friendly data sets ever.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#40SW
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/10mm-auto-self-defense-ammo-ballistic-gel-tests/

the 200gr might be made for 10mm speeds far as expansion goes since there werent any in the 40 test maybe someone knows what there designed for ?

Great information. Thanks!!

[RU shooter]

The way I look at it is if it's a HP design assume it won't expand and base your decision on that .

[Good Cheer]

Will a full flat wadcutter with a big diameter cup point punch through winter clothing more reliably than a solid nosed wadcutter?
I don't know. But it's something I'd like to test.

[tazman]

The question posed by the OP, for me, depends greatly on where I am and what I am doing.
My gun and loads differ for the application needed. Home as opposed to carry in a crowd.

[imashooter2]

Can’t recall where I saw it, but this sums it up for me...
Shot placement is King.
Penetration is Queen.
All else is angels dancing on the head of a pin.

[M-Tecs]

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

[M-Tecs]

I've been following SD handgun stopping power since the 70's. Between the Government and civilian manufactures we have far more choices than ever and technology has benefited some cartridges more than others. In the 70's the Rem JHP 125 grain was providing 96% one shot stops. It still is today.

Both the 9mm and 45 ACP started life as military round using FMJ. The 9mm ball had about 34% one shot stops and 45 ACP was about 56%. With quality expanding bullets the 9mm moves to high 80's to mid 90's. Same for the 45 ACP.

The OP asked lighter faster or heavier slower. Throwing in pentation into the OP question comparing the 45 ACP with ball to the 357 with 125 grain JHP gives insight to both the validity of both philosophies with lots of actual data to based your decision on. The 45 ACP 230 brain ball gives better penetration. The 125 JHP expands very well.

Also I know a man that (in the line of duty killed men) with a 45 ACP using ball and a 357 using 125 grain JHP's. He was a big believer in the 357 with 125 grain jacketed hollow points.

[Kosh75287]

I want, AT BARE MINIMUM, 200 grains at 860 f/s, or the equivalent in momentum, with the heaviest projectile that is practical for the caliber. I'd rather have a LRNFP, FMJFP, or LSWC over a jacketed hollow-point or a JSP.

[Static line]

Slow and heavy for me. I like over penetration. I choose cast bullets with WFN. On game, I like two holes for blood to get out fast. For self defense, well you just might be able to get the other bad guy standing behind the one who is in his way.;-)

[Kosh75287]

ADDENDUM: I was interrupted (by non-forum events) before I completed my post, so here's the rest. Through a not-very-systematic nor exhaustive(but the best I could do) assessment of one-shot stops and one-shot stoppage failures, I've come to the conclusion that there's a minimum momentum that renders a greater-than-chance probability of stopping a determined attack with a solid hit to the upper torso. It consists of a bullet no smaller than .356" diameter, no lighter than 172 grains, propelled at no less than 1000 f/s AT THE TARGET, NOT THE MUZZLE, or any combination of bullet weight and velocity, the product of which is 172,000 (grains*ft.)/sec.
This mathematical product will seem redolent of the various IPSC/IDPA/USPSA/etc. "power floor" ratings for "major", and shares SOME foundation with those figures. But MY criterion replaces muzzle velocity with the velocity at which the bullet actually strikes the target. I also do not make much of bullet configuration, except with regard to shape, i.e., I count a LSWC as having as much stopping potential as a LSWC hollow-point. The latter works wonderfully, WHEN IT WORKS. When it does not work, it mashes closed and acts like a LRN. I similarly count a FMJFP the same as a LRNFP. If pushed fast enough, the latter may disrupt and expand slightly on bone or other hard tissue, and be less likely to produce a through-and-through wound. The latter typically does not expand or deform on most body tissues, and is more likely to produce a through-and-through wound.
ALL PROJECTILES ARE COMPROMISES AND CONCESSIONS TO SOMETHING. FMJRNs tend to feed more reliably, not expand in, and often traverse the target. HPs tend to feed LESS reliably, expand erractically, and over-penetrate less often. The various RNFPs, FMJFPs, and JSPs tend to lie between the first two bullet types in these indices.
Until we develop the technology by which a FMJRN bullet is transformed to an inverted HBWC just before target contact, we're stuck with the advantages and failings of whichever type we choose. And, right after that technology becomes accessible, we will no doubt be conducting small-unit skirmishes with Phasers, and not firearms. So it goes...

[stubshaft]

Slower and heavier AND most accurate! A fast miss doesn't mean beans...

[onelight]

I am a slower heavier guy for the most part for several reasons , I find subsonic more pleasant to shoot , it seems easier to find cast loads that don't lead in multiple guns , heavy flat point bullets are more predictable on impact with meat and bone . I like um all but prefer .40 to .45 in hand guns .

[bmortell]

think i disagree with most people here. most seem to prioritize heavy slow and accuracy. even though 125gr 357 has the best record, and to me self defense im feeling like if the slight difference in accuracy between different weights is actually needed then i have the wrong tool or im worried about something hard to argue as actual self defense.

[Gray Fox]

There are other practical considerations here, too. For concealed carry do you want a 4" heavy barrel K frame with a 125 grain .357 HP at about 1,150 fps or a commander size 1911 with a 200 grain RNFP or TC at 875 fps? GF

[bmortell]

There are other practical considerations here, too. For concealed carry do you want a 4" heavy barrel K frame with a 125 grain .357 HP at about 1,150 fps or a commander size 1911 with a 200 grain RNFP or TC at 875 fps? GF

if thats all 357 could do then probably 45. but 1450-1550fps from 4" is what can make smaller better. or maybe you were trying to equalize for comparison

[Texas by God]

I would use either one of the OPs loads providing that they hit POI at 20 feet or so and fed 100%. I only carry a Shield 9 or a 1911 .45 and I use Hornady Critical Defense in both because they raise hell with a 5 gallon bucket of water fired at from above at 5 feet( that's my test- simple mind). If I know trouble is coming, the pistol will be holstered and the 870 or AR15 will be in my hands.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[AndyC]

Placement, Penetration - and repeat until the shape changes or catches fire.

[downzero]

. When it does not work, it mashes closed and acts like a LRN.

I have reviewed a lot of murder cases and officer involved shootings and I have never seen that. When a hollow point fills with clothing and doesn't "work," it generally stays the same diameter it was and punches through like an FMJ, penetrating deeper but not expanding. I've never seen the nose get smaller or 'mash closed.'

After seeing a lot of autopsy reports, I have a lot less confidence in hollow point performance even if they are expensive ones. But I also see little downside. If they don't open, you're no worse off. A LSWCHP that doesn't open is still a LSWC.

[468]

I wonder if anyone on the receiving end of 230g FMJ .45 ever thought; “ thank god that wasn’t a 125g .357 JHP!”...or vice- versa.

[memtb]

Without reading all of the posts, I question why the 45ACP FMJ ( which is essentially a round point) is compared to a high velocity .357 Mag JHP.

Everyone should be aware that a non-expanding round nose projectile does very little tissue damage. Tissue (muscle, organs, vessels) are somewhat pushed aside, with the soft elastic tissue returning to it’s original status (though with a small hole/tear), quickly sealing the puncture wound (think stepping on a nail). There will be a minimal amount of hemorrhaging as compared to a high velocity, expanding bullet which makes a large channel, tearing wound.....which cannot return to it’s original composition (self-sealing)!

If a wadcutter, or semi-wadcutter where used in the .45 as a comparison, the .45 results would substantially improve. Example: Round nose cast bullets are not normally recommended for hunting big game.....a heavy, wide metplat bullet is the preference!

I think that if we compared wound characteristics of a .45 JHP to a .357 JHP .....the .45 would be much better represented. memtb

[Groo]

Groo here
My 2cents.
First, the load must function,,, load,fire,eject and go where you want........
Where it goes is your job.
Cooper said that any round that can be expected to stop a fight with one hit [in the correct place] will tend to go through.
That is the power needed.
I use [in my autos ] FMJ flat nose [if i can find them]
In my revolvers ,,, that is different.
The expanding bullet can be made "softer" so it will deform more often and at lower speeds.
Autos must go through the feed cycle without damage..

Therefore a revolver [which will shoot any bullet design] would be the best "self defence" pistol [where a one shot stop is wanted and just the bad guy gets hit]
but an auto round a better "war " round . [where the intent is to wound and require medical help and others getting hit is just "accepted as long as its not us]]

[Harter66]

My 2¢ .
Excluding the 40/10 we're talking about cartridges that have over 100 years of RD , and the 40/10 is pushing 50 yr so I would expect that the core of load data by bullet weight would be the best suited for a particular cartridge with typical tool selection .

I'm always baffled as to why the 9mm is so beloved and the 38 so disparaged . Compare a 147 RF or HP to a 158 OF THE SAME DESIGN and it's a dead heat or very close . Throw a +P 125 38 up against a 9mm 124/5 and there just isn't a gap especially if you put the 9mm in a revolver . If someone wants to send me a box at 50 ea I'd be too happy make to make jello , cut cases , and do a single platform side by side of 9mm and 38 Special with suitable data for for each with chronograph , weigh lots , and what I wear every day penetration and expansion tests .

There's 1 40 available to me but I'd be happy to compare a 141-165 45 ACP or 40 at the same speeds as the 9/38 . Using a 45 RBH I don't see a problem getting there .

In the glory days of dual quads and breaker points there was an expression , "there's no replacement for displacement" , and personally I'll take a 9-1100 fps 140-165 gr 45 cal hole over a .355-357 every time .

Now if we add nose shape we need to have a 9/38 , 40 , 45 cal with the same shape per frontal area . We can't just go and compare a 147 Gold Dot 9mm to a 358-158 RNFP may as well be a full WC Lee . If we're shooting 140 gr XTP or GD then we need some in all 4 . I shot a few 85 gr GD in a 38 once , they would knock over a half bowling pin sized piece of 4×4 post 100% no exit where a 158 SWC plated would pass through with barely a wiggle . A full boat 357 would have had near enough muzzle blast to blow it over . I'd bet a soft .454 RB would roll the blocks too . So now we have a playing field of that Markov .365 1 R Lee for 9/38 and a plain RB in the ACP or a collar button sized down . I can't think of a 40 cal off hand .

A 200 in a 9mm will be a hot 38/200 vs a SIL load in 38 Special which +p or not will have a velocity edge but be close to the 40 S&W and it's a lightweight in the 45 .

I could go on about how eggs to eggs work for a neat little package but you're hard pressed to make an omelette with caviar and you better be feeding a bunch if you have an ostrich egg to start with .

I haul around a 380 with HyShok like HPs or a 40 with a 165 TMJ RNFP . Hunting I haul a 357 with a 358-158 or a 45 with a 454424 NOE version so far so good . The 357 has finished 3 mule deer at 15-25 ft high neck disconnection . The 1000 fps 454424 has killed 4/5 of its hogs 1 shot inside 5 yd to 47 yd bang , thud , collapse . The other was all juiced up running like Seattle Slew down the home stretch good clean hit exited the off side via the soft edge of the scapula at 17 yd . It hit a rib going in another going out through about 1.5" of shield light cartilage in total , and the shoulder blade . 24" of live skin cartilage , meat , bone , lungs , bone , meat , bone , meat , cartilage , skin . That one ran 200 >< yd .
I can't say for sure , but if a confrontation gets to a shooting solution , just like that last hog , I'm thinking I'm going to be pretty juiced up and so is the other guy .

[bigboredad]

Well if I had to touch one off in a house or gas station restroom or something like it I'd rather do it with a a 215gr .32 meplat 45 at between 830-900. As opposed to a 1450-1550 fps 357 125gr jhp which is certain to cause permanent hearing damage. I also have more confidence in short fat and heavy. Ymmv

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

[Texas by God]

Groo mentioned the FMJ flat nose. Here we are in 2020, why aren’t ALL FMJ’s flat nose by now? I’m just wondering- and wishing they were. I prefer flat nose in my cast loads.

[MOC031]

Speaking in terms of self-defense ammo... Curious as to what other folks prefer.

Whatever I'm carrying (and for the last few years it's back to a 9mm from 40 S&W), it will be one variant or other of whatever a lot of LEO agencies are issuing.

So these days, it's Federal 147 gr. HST. If I could only get Federal 124 gr. HST, I wouldn't lose sleep. Or if it was Federal Gold Dot in either of those weights... again, I would lose no sleep. Not +P? Still not losing sleep. Fackler and other terminal ballistics guys, along with ammo companies chasing government contracts, have and continue to invest months of time and millions of dollars designing, testing, modifying, etc to meet government LEO criteria.

The first service ammunition I was issued was 38 Spl 158 gr. round nose, trundling along at about 800 fps if I remember correctly. Only police shooting I was somewhat involved in was arriving other the noise and excitement was over. Crappy round nosed ammunition, fired by the worst shot amongst us, all the way across a tire shop: two COM, bad guy about to execute the wounded cop laying at his feet, DRT. Bang-flop. Because when it mattered, he put two right where they were supposed to go.

It was a real step up later when we got issued the 158 gr LSWCHP +P replacement!!! And I wouldn't lose too much sleep if I were forced to carry that once again - or the Model 10 service revolver it was issued for.

It's not hard to find anecdotal evidence of x caliber of gun with y ammunition failing to stop, no matter what the size of the hole in the end of the barrel is. Especially the further back you go looking for evidence to back your position either way.

As well as no shortage of opinionated gun writers over the years with little to no actual experience in either shootings, or reviewing those shootings, much less being involved in programs to engineer and develop better ammunition that include reviewing thousands of reports filed after shootings. Pick your side: they're there to tell you what they want you to hear. Theorists, mostly.

These days, in the current service calibers and manufacturers of service ammunition, I very much doubt there's a whole lot of difference if you were to review the thousands of police shootings over the last decade. That would cover most of the current calibers and service ammunition. Many run around attempting to pick fly poo out of pepper, looking for the speck that favors their position.

One issue is you should indeed practice in the first place. And second, you should practice with what you carry. That gets expensive if you're talking about current service ammunition - and there's the problem of availability. But it doesn't have to be that expensive HST, Gold Dot, etc. ammunition - all it has to be is it's ballistic equivilent. The practice ammunition I reload uses bullets from government pull downs. Some marks, only real terminal ballistic performance is making a hole or sound after hitting a target. But they feel the same, they hit pretty much the same POA/POI as the expensive stuff. Works for me.

Two things are for certain: handgun ammunition will continue to improve in performance. And nobody ever lost money starting a self defense caliber/bullet/weight war in their magazine articles, books, or online.