I don’t get the infatuation with powder coat and hi tech

[dogdoc]

What’s the big deal? I cast the bullets, handle them one time through a lubrisizer then load them . No separate sizing operation , no shake and bake, no concern about size variation, No concern about brand of paint, just a very time efficient loading operation. Sure they look pretty but so what. The traditional lubed/ sized bullets shoot great and do not lead. Why change? I have had leading problems with many of the commercial Handgun high tech bullets if velocity is high but that may be too hard bullets with a bevel base. What am I missing? Seems like a waste of time with the extra steps for pretty bullets. Do they group better? Or is it just something different for those with much free time.😀 I am not a snowflake so you can flame me. Its all in good fun but I would like to know.

Dogdoc

[BigAlofPa.]

I buy them Hi-tec coated. I bought lubed cast one time. The lube fell out on some. Im guessing from shipping. So i sorta fixed em with chap stick lol. It worked no leading.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Perhaps you are just more astute. Oddly, my .30 cal rifles shoot very well with tumble lube. My handguns on the other hand do very well with powder coat. I am still learning.

[slim1836]

I like the fact that they store indefinitely without oxidizing. I don't like grit sticking to to my tumble lube or lubed grooves. Don't have to change lube for different velocities either. The list go on but I'll let others chime in.

Slim

[la5676]

One thing i can do now is cast and coat a gazillion of them and store with no worries about all the lube sticking to the noses or bases of all the other boolits in the bulk boxes. The sizing stroke is perhaps the same on both, but I don't fumble with putting the little thing down in the 450 base, then taking it out, and every once in a while shave the side off if I don't have a perfectly flat base. The push through is so much faster.

I also don't have that tell tale sign of the normal boolit caster at the range, the lube burnoff.

The storage thing was what sold me more than anything.

[megasupermagnum]

Besides the storage thing, PC should allow you to shoot dead soft lead at high pressures/velocity with no leading. It may or may not shoot good, but there will be no fouling if your coating is good.


I tried PC bullets, didn't like them. I do a mix of tumble lube and wax lubing myself.

[NyFirefighter357]

I like the fact that they store indefinitely without oxidizing. I don't like grit sticking to to my tumble lube or lubed grooves. Don't have to change lube for different velocities either. The list go on but I'll let others chime in.

Slim

This is also the reason I decided to go with PC.

[bmortell]

normally the people who ask this question already own $250 of lube sizing setup which makes it easy for them. could ask the other way and say why would i spend 10x more to lube

[Texas by God]

I only use Lee sizing dies and only use LLA or PC. They are both easy to do, I don’t really prefer one over the other.

[ryanmattes]

For rifle, where you're shooting far slower, there's probably not much time savings. On rifle, 60 rounds is a long day at the range. I still pan lube some of my .45 cowboy loads, because the time savings is negligible for 48 rounds.

But for pistol, where I'll go through several hundred rounds, at least, in a couple hours at the range, it's definitely a time saver. If I bring the kids with me, I can easily go through 500+ handgun rounds in a couple hours.

Coating 20lbs of 9mm gives me 1k+ rounds lubed in under an hour (5lbs per batch, 1 minute shake x 4 batches, 8 mins on top of the oven to warm for the first batch, 8 mins per batch cook time x 4 with the next batch warming on top of the oven while each cooks = ~45 minutes). If I want to double coat, it takes about 90 minutes, since I recoat as soon as they cool, while the next batch is still in the oven.

I can put 1k rounds through a push through die in about 15-20 minutes. So, all told, around 2 hours for 1k rounds ready to load. How long does it take you to put 1k rounds through your lube sizer?

Also how much does the lube add to your per-round cost? The Hi-Tek is under a hundredth of a penny per round.

They don't stick, they don't smoke, they're fast to make in bulk, they're cheap, and you can store them forever.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201125/1f4adc049cdb47acfd4b771e0edd4afc.jpg

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[sharps4590]

What’s the big deal? I cast the bullets, handle them one time through a lubrisizer then load them . No separate sizing operation , no shake and bake, no concern about size variation, No concern about brand of paint, just a very time efficient loading operation. Sure they look pretty but so what. The traditional lubed/ sized bullets shoot great and do not lead. Why change? I have had leading problems with many of the commercial Handgun high tech bullets if velocity is high but that may be too hard bullets with a bevel base. What am I missing? Seems like a waste of time with the extra steps for pretty bullets. Do they group better? Or is it just something different for those with much free time.�� I am not a snowflake so you can flame me. Its all in good fun but I would like to know.

Dogdoc

^^^ I'm with him....

[DonHowe]

This is also the reason I decided to go with PC.

Funny, I have seldom had this problem with storing cast lubed bullets. Just don't see the big deal.

[reddog81]

Much cleaner to load and shoot. Get the exact right size of bullet isn’t quite as important. The start up cost is less. The only downside to PC’ing is that it takes a smidgen longer to setup the bullets for baking.

If you’re getting leading problems someone probably screwed up the curing process.

[charlie b]

If I already had a lube sizer I would probably still be shooting regular lubed bullets. But since I do not, then it is either pan lube (messy) or powder coat. They both take about the same amount of time.

For some bullets that do not need sizing powder coat is faster.

If I ever found a good lube sizer for not much money I'd probably go back to lubed bullets.

[downzero]

I've never seen leading with any coated bullet regardless of alloy or speed.

[AndyC]

Far less smoke on shooting. Might not seem like much but it makes a difference for rapid-fire pistol-shooting eg. IPSC/IDPA.

I use my Star lubesizer now only as a sizer - and yeah, I was a traditionalist.

[44Blam]

I like to powder coat because it works great, is very easy to do, is less messy and allows you to do fun things like this:
272066

[44MAG#1]

One thing I have noticed is that powder coating is a miracle to some and a dismal failure to some. I shoot sized and lubed and just powder coated and sized. Powder coated is great on an indoor range that allows reloads or handloads, whatever one wants to call them.
Much less smoke to contend with. To me that is a good thing. Much else I don't care either way.

[la5676]

Everyone did notice that it is listed under coatings and "alternatives".

:killingpc:groner:

[Bazoo]

Well I ain't PC crazy. I feel pc is a tool to use when lubesizing won't work. I don't understand the logic of not being able to afford a lubesizer, they are only like $75 used. Even I managed to get one and I'm poor.

I have fun with my bullets without all the gay colors. If I get all excited bout colors I'll break out the colored pencils and one of the wife's coloring books.

Minds me of a funny story. Well the wife's father was visiting and we was driving a few places looking for adult coloring books for the wife. First place didn't have any. So we went to michaels and they had some. He started laughing. He said "that's not what I thought you meant by adult coloring books!" Guess he figured we'd only need various shades of pinks and browns.

[brewer12345]

I started powder coating because my favorite revolver leaded horribly with tumble lubed or conventionally lubed bullets. I was a convert right away. The guns stay cleaner, the bullets are forgiving, and I see no difference in accuracy.

[Big Boomer]

Started out reloading and using jacketed bullets but that got too costly in a hurry on my salary back in the mid-'70s. Had free wheel weights given to me by the 5-gallon bucket so I put my dollars into casting boolits and sizing on a Lyman 450 using whatever lube I could find, all beeswax based. Finally developed my own concoction then transitioned to FWFL and some red lube that I started using in a Star sizer I acquired. Still have a big box of those lubes all made up but they're not likely to spoil. Every time I would lube up a bunch of boolits and let them fall from the heated Star, the falling boolits with soft lube in the grooves would invariably cause the falling boolits to hit the lube in the lube groove of the boolits they struck and everything was sticky with lube. Then a couple of years ago I discovered p/cing and all the sticky and smoke is gone. I'm not interested in colors so I opted for Smoke's clear and never looked back. My boolits just look like regular cast boolits except they are shiny and slick. Still use the Stars (picked up another along the way) for sizing but do not have to heat & use the lube any more. It may be just a matter of preference for some of us and I intend to test all my calibers, handguns and rifles, plain lubed, p/ced with lube, and just plain p/ced just to see what the difference may be. Wife's surgeries and recuperation have put a kink in my time at the range but I'll got 'er done eventually if I live long enough. Big Boomer

[Bwana John]

The only caliber I powder coat for is .310 Cadet.

The powder coat solves the icky-sticky problem of the external lube groove.

It also allows me to use the softest lead available so the heeled bullet can easily obturate, without any leading in the bore.

[dtknowles]

For rifle, where you're shooting far slower, there's probably not much time savings. On rifle, 60 rounds is a long day at the range. I still pan lube some of my .45 cowboy loads, because the time savings is negligible for 48 rounds.

But for pistol, where I'll go through several hundred rounds, at least, in a couple hours at the range, it's definitely a time saver. If I bring the kids with me, I can easily go through 500+ handgun rounds in a couple hours.

Coating 20lbs of 9mm gives me 1k+ rounds lubed in under an hour (5lbs per batch, 1 minute shake x 4 batches, 8 mins on top of the oven to warm for the first batch, 8 mins per batch cook time x 4 with the next batch warming on top of the oven while each cooks = ~45 minutes). If I want to double coat, it takes about 90 minutes, since I recoat as soon as they cool, while the next batch is still in the oven.

I can put 1k rounds through a push through die in about 15-20 minutes. So, all told, around 2 hours for 1k rounds ready to load. How long does it take you to put 1k rounds through your lube sizer?

Also how much does the lube add to your per-round cost? The Hi-Tek is under a hundredth of a penny per round.

They don't stick, they don't smoke, they're fast to make in bulk, they're cheap, and you can store them forever.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201125/1f4adc049cdb47acfd4b771e0edd4afc.jpg

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Do the math, 1K in 20 minutes is faster than one per second.

[RKJ]

For me it keeps the mess down. I still size mine in a Lyman 4500 and have Lar's lube if I need it, but I don't see me going back to lube unless I have to. I like PC a lot, but I'm not going to try to persuade or convert anyone.

[John McCorkle]

Pc is great for some, I tend to like it more that tumble lube....I don't have the lube sizing equipment so shake and bake pc lubing and tumble lube make up my repertoire...

I find I can get higher pressure loads with softer alloy with good pc than I can with other lubes. In general it seems to give more tolerance to all the variables that can plague cast boolits.

Maybe one day I'll get into lubesizer but I have enough experimenting to do with what I have to keep me busy for a long long time..add paper patching as a new skill to master and it'll be a while before I need to add another tool to the toolkit

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[Budzilla 19]

The only way I will go back to lubing is if can’t get any more pc powder for some reason or other! The only lube I use now is BLL, which I overcoat factory swaged or cast boolits. I don’t dislike lubing, especially since BLL was developed, but for me, powder coat is where I’m at now! I like the different color selections, but the clear works best, both in coating thickness, and, performance. Just my opinion. Hell, sometimes I’ll even overcoat the powder coat, it’s a hobby, after all, so I’m going to have fun. Be safe out there!

[ryanmattes]

Do the math, 1K in 20 minutes is faster than one per second.1000/60=16.66 minutes

And it doesn't take a second in a push through die.

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[megasupermagnum]

The sizing argument has been done over many times. There is no argument to be had with respect to time spent to complete a bullet. Bullets can be lubed/sized with wax faster than they can be coated/baked, then sized. By that same argument, tumble lubing is painfully slow because it can take over night to dry. That's not the whole story though. Tumble lubing for example you can shake bullets in a cup in 60 seconds, and then you walk away with no more effort until they are dry. Baking bullets is not a very manual operation either. Some simply enjoy baking bullets more than turning a screw for lube. There's a fast way to do all three methods, so do whichever you enjoy the most.

[dtknowles]

1000/60=16.66 minutes

And it doesn't take a second in a push through die.

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I guess maybe you could do one per second, I doubt I could and I know I wouldn't. I am not that rushed when I am making bullets. I am much slower than that sizing bullets. My bullets are not messy. I stack them neatly in boxes as I size them. I don't have to wipe their bases or noses unless I crank the lube screw out of sequence. I think that powder coat might be wonderful for some people. Some people who do it seem to be sort of extreme in their positions on the issue. I find nothing wrong with lubesized bullets. I have shot a lot of them but I don't shoot a lot each year. For me a thousand is a lot of bullets. In regards to the cost of a lubrisizer. I can sell either of mine for more than I paid for them and I bought one new but that was in 1974. I feel powder coating is a solution to a nonexistent problem, just another way to skin the cat.

I like that casters try new things. It is good to push new ideas but not all old ideas a bad.

Regarding "And it doesn't take a second in a push through die." Do you know that a Star Lubrisizer is a push thru sizer? If you can do one a second in a Lee die you can do one a second or at least one every other second in a Star, you don't have to powder coat it and it comes out lubed ready to load.

I think powder coating is a good innovation. It might even be better is some ways.

Tim

[44Blam]

1000/60=16.66 minutes

And it doesn't take a second in a push through die.

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20 minutes is 1200 secs... I like to use those red lee containers, so I do about 3-400 and I have to dump it.

But it really doesn't take long to size PC'd boolits, for me it is like maybe 500 in 20 minutes. Not sure - I usually do that kind of thing while I'm waiting on something. Like I put a batch in the oven to PC, I size the previous batch and start PCing the next batch that goes into the oven...

[44Blam]

The other thing about PC becides it being a lot less messy is if you have to pull boolits. I recently got gifted a box of 45-70 cartridges. Some loaded, some empty cases... ONE case with a head seperation. So, in general, I won't shoot someone else's reload but I sure as hell am not going to shoot someone's hand load that is in the same box as a case with a seperated head... Just sayin'.

I pulled all of those boolits and the powder looked like H4198. But it is "unknown" and will be used for flaming up my driveway or making the grass look better. But the boolits were lubed and that lube grabbed a lot of powder when it got dumped into the puller. Now I'm gonna have to make sure that all that powder is out of the gummy lube before I drop the boolit into a pot to melt.

[bmortell]

really just depends what you already have. to me PC wins money wise because i already owned everything i needed besides the powder itself and a bag of powder lasts an awful long time. after im done casting shaking powder on is no effort, baking downtime i use for post casting cleanup. then back to the house and pop em through a lee size die. so to me a lube-sizer even at used prices seems like a waste of money when i can make thousands for 20 bucks of powder with commonly owned items. so its not hard to see either as a solution to a non existent problem

[M-Tecs]

PC bullet smoke a lot less and you can push them harder with less fouling issues. If neither one of those are issues for your application than not much benefit in PC.

[303Guy]

I don't powder coat - yet. I am under the impression that powder coating would work for me in place of paper patching. I need to fatten the boolits I have. Paper patching for range shooting isn't all that appealing but for field use it is. So, I'm interested in powder coating for rifles for target shooting. I think I can achieve similar results with hot dip lubing. My hot dip lube is like a lacquer and increases the boolit size but it's not a bulk proposition. It's a one at a time procedure. That's what I'm playing around with at the moment anyway. I only have to have fun. :mrgreen:

[Lloyd Smale]

no leading and a MUCH cleaner gun. Whats not to like.

[dogdoc]

Interesting replies. I get the less smoke but I usually shoot outdoors so not a big concern for me. I have had some bullets oxidize during storage. No sticky bullets is nice as well. I have had lubrisizers since the early 1980s so I have not considered cost but that is a valid point. Still it is a more complicated process than one and done lubrisizing and even just coating with lla after sizing in a lee push thru. The problems I have had have been with too hard bevel based commercial high tech handgun bullets with fouling/leading (improper sizing often as well). The same problems As well with traditional hard lube commercial bullets. I solve them wIth lla on the bullets. When time allows, I prefer to cast my own flat based traditional handgun bullets at bhn 12 to 15 and size/lube. No problems with those. Powder coating is different and may work better than high tech for me. I may try it at some point. I may be crazy but I like the smell of burning 50/50 Alox lube.
Heading to deer stand with my Smith 44 loaded with my Lyman 429421 sized and lubed! Hope to test bullet performance this am!

[dale2242]

Call me old fashioned. I am.
I have never powder coated. I have never tumble lubed.
I started casting in the early 60s.
I started with an RCBS lube/sizer and NRA 50/50 lube.
I haven`t worn out the lube/sizer and have several pounds of 50/50 lube I bought cheap on S&S.
Yes 50/50 lube smokes and is somewhat sticky.
I am not bothered by the smoke. All my shooting is done outdoors.
I stack all my sized/lubed bullets on end in cardboard or plastic containers so messy isn`t an issue.
Oxidation has never been an issue with my cast bullets and I have some that have been stored for a LONG time.
I have no reason to change to powder coating since I am OK with the equipment and lube I am using.
If powder coating is the way to go for you, more power to you. To each his own.
I am sticking with conventional lube/sizing.

[AlHunt]

I find lube/size messy. Even tumble lube leaves sticky fingers. Some of Smokes colors cover very, very well in 1 pass. Translucent Copper works well and looks great. I use the shake and bake method and bake them in a big pile so it's almost effortless.

But, to each their own. I don't care how another person handles their bullets.

[Static line]

I started with the lube/sizers and have two of them. Have a good supply of lubes from LARS on hand. All my bullet molds are made to drop my bullets big and all my sizing dies are such to give me .002" over groove diameter. My understanding is that PC'ing is best done with tumble lube type grooves in the bullets, which none of mine are. All this stuff will have to collect dust if I start PC'ing and equals more money wasted. I do however wish I would have known about PC'ing when I started because it does sound like the best way to go. BUT, none of this matters if primers don't start coming back on our shelves. So unless all the planets line up in our favor, I am not going to invest in another rabbit hole.

[toallmy]

I have experimented with everything except Hi-Tec coating , choosing to use a magma lubesizer for most of my cast boolits . But I will still tumble lube a big pile of 38 wad cutters with a lee / Johnson tumble lube mix , or pan lube a few for my inline . PC is pretty simple with the shake & bake method and could probably cover all of my shooting .
It's nice to have choices .

[DonHowe]

I do not powder coat and won't, not because of better or worse. I am amused at the reason stated for powder coating being superior. I am getting a mental image of having sex alone in a wet suit to avoid mess. A shooting simulator would be awesome: no casting or loading effort or expense. Just turn it on and shoot.

As for speed, I would compare a Star lubesizer to any PC setup.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Orange Boolit Bad

[Petrol & Powder]

"I don’t get the infatuation with powder coat and hi tech"

Perhaps the question could be phrased, "Are there advantages to powder coating"?
OR
"Do you powder coat and if so, why"?

Or maybe go in the other direction and phrase it like this, "why on earth would anyone in their right mind ever powder coat"? :kidding:

[barrabruce]

I just cast , load ,then finger lube a lot of bullets now.
Suppose I’m too lazy to do much else.
I don’t even use dies unless I have to.
I do dip lube tapered Bullets thou.
Store as cast or lubed in 100 round pistol cases.
Just do enough at a time to get me through.

Don’t know why people want to go through a heap of work for no reason.
I have even to be known apart from a wipe over with a rag ; to clean my brass every ooohhhh. Couple of years when I forget.
Then I start and remember how labour intensive that is and usually ding up a few pieces of brass into the bargain.

No I can’t see me buying a heap of gear in the near future.

Ymmv

[William Yanda]

I don't have a $50-100 lubrisizer or $20 dies for multiple sizes of boolets. I suppose I could pan lube with a repurposed piece of brass and a lid from a cookie or candy tin. But..... that would mean delving into lube choices.
I found a toaster oven for $1 at a yard sale. Smoke's sample pack will get me started. I have acquired a wire basket from the thrift shop. Airsoft bb's are readily available as are containers with the 5 in a triangle recycle symbol.
For me, the initial investment was much smaller and the color choices are a free bonus.
Now to do it.

[ShooterAZ]

I don't powder coat, but have ben tempted to on a few occasions. Conventional lubed boolits have worked great for me for many years. Either way, the way I see it as long as you're shooting boolits you're good to go.

[Finster101]

I don't get why folks want to fool around with those new fangled smokeless powder. A case full of black has always worked.

[Larry Gibson]

What’s the big deal? I cast the bullets, handle them one time through a lubrisizer then load them . No separate sizing operation , no shake and bake, no concern about size variation, No concern about brand of paint, just a very time efficient loading operation. Sure they look pretty but so what. The traditional lubed/ sized bullets shoot great and do not lead. Why change? I have had leading problems with many of the commercial Handgun high tech bullets if velocity is high but that may be too hard bullets with a bevel base. What am I missing? Seems like a waste of time with the extra steps for pretty bullets. Do they group better? Or is it just something different for those with much free time.�� I am not a snowflake so you can flame me. Its all in good fun but I would like to know.

Dogdoc

^^^ I'm with him too. I have tested [pressure, velocity and accuracy] numerous different PCs and HTs of numerous calibers in numerous cartridges and firearms. So far they show no indication with a given load in a given cartridge of less pressure, higher velocity or better accuracy. I've batted about 50% on getting fouling and/or leading in some firearms. I have done a side by side comparison on PC/HTing and sizing lubing bullets. The sizing lubing was much faster and a lot less messier. I shoot out doors so the "less smoke" thing is meaningless to me.

With harder alloys and GC'd bullets that are also HT'd to BHNs of 30+ there may be some advantage in HV "blasting" loads for ARs in 223/5.56 but I still prefer jacketed bullets (55 FMJs) for that. Seems PC is just adding a jacket to the bullet.

Still, if someone makes a true break through with much improved accuracy where there is no fouling/leading I'm always open to change. Just haven't seen either yet.

[Froogal]

What’s the big deal? I cast the bullets, handle them one time through a lubrisizer then load them . No separate sizing operation , no shake and bake, no concern about size variation, No concern about brand of paint, just a very time efficient loading operation. Sure they look pretty but so what. The traditional lubed/ sized bullets shoot great and do not lead. Why change? I have had leading problems with many of the commercial Handgun high tech bullets if velocity is high but that may be too hard bullets with a bevel base. What am I missing? Seems like a waste of time with the extra steps for pretty bullets. Do they group better? Or is it just something different for those with much free time.😀 I am not a snowflake so you can flame me. Its all in good fun but I would like to know.

Dogdoc

I agree 100%. I investigated that powder coating thing. Looks like a whole lot of hassle to me. I bought the RCBS lubri-sizer instead.

[dtknowles]

The Powder Coating thing seems to have a steeper learning curve as well. I see a bit of people asking on here about what went wrong with their Powder Coating.

[ioon44]

What’s the big deal? I cast the bullets, handle them one time through a lubrisizer then load them . No separate sizing operation , no shake and bake, no concern about size variation, No concern about brand of paint, just a very time efficient loading operation. Sure they look pretty but so what. The traditional lubed/ sized bullets shoot great and do not lead. Why change? I have had leading problems with many of the commercial Handgun high tech bullets if velocity is high but that may be too hard bullets with a bevel base. What am I missing? Seems like a waste of time with the extra steps for pretty bullets. Do they group better? Or is it just something different for those with much free time.😀 I am not a snowflake so you can flame me. Its all in good fun but I would like to know.

Dogdoc

I have been Hi-Tek coating for about 7 years, I tried PC and found the diameter it to be inconsistent and it took to long to set up each bullet to bake.

Your experience with commercial Handgun high tech bullets, did you slug your barrel to see if the bullets were .002" over your barrel, did your loading dies scrape off the coating when loading, did you pull a loaded bullet to see if your loading dies are swaging the bullet to be under size? Does your barrels have a short sharp throat? A bevel base bullet has nothing to do with why a bullet leads up a barrel, bullet fit is king.

For me the big deal is no contact with lead when loading and the loading dies don't gum up with lube, barrels are as clean as jacketed bullets after shooting, I can use different colors for different loads.

Just my 2.3 cents worth. YMMV

[bedbugbilly]

Some folks like to ride unicycles, some tricycles and others bicycles.

I have thought bout getting a lubrisizer at times but really don't have the space for it at either of our places. When you get older, you tend to "down size'. I have purchased lulled boolits at times and still have some in jars as I don't shoot them so much anymore - and over time, the lube has dried out some.

I have had excellent results with tumble lubing in both handguns and rifles and to me, it's no big deal to TL, lay 'em out to dry and then store.

I have purchased PC'd boolits and have also had some given to me to try - I'm not bit on high tech but I have had excellent results with them and do like them. I can see how some folks like to pC and at some point, I may give it a try.

Yea, using a lubrisizer may be more efficient in that you can size and size in the same operation and I guess, if you shoot a lot or in competition, time is of th4e essence - especially if you are younger, working, have family, etc. But for many, it's to about time or efficiency - it's about the fun and relaxation from doing the various aspects of reloading, casting, etc. I could certainly be more efficient if I used my turret press all the time but I still like to use my old single stage as well as my Lyman 310 steel tongs and dies.

At this point, I am getting more interesting in try PC boolits in a couple of my rifles just to see how well they do as I know some like the results they have in some of their rifles. Fortunately, I have a friend who will PC some for me to try and he'll help me get set up to do it if I decide to take the "PC plunge".

[remy3424]

I didn't jump into PC right away, but now I only PC on handgun boolits, I enjoy just throwing the PCed boolits into a container, no stacking and covering to prevent the lube from collecting dust or lube drying out, they aren't sticky, less lead exposure and no lube build-up in my seater dies. I still use my 450 lube/sizer, just no heat or lube now, but can easily traditionally lube again if needed. Seem to shoot very similar to traditional lube...don't switch if you are happy with things currently.

[WardT]

Less smoke with PC is a big plus playing the USPSC game

[Targa]

I pan lube and size through a Lee sizer. Works well and have no complaints but this powder coating thing does have my interest, I’ll give it a try some day.

[Petrol & Powder]

I don't get why folks want to fool around with those new fangled smokeless powder. A case full of black has always worked.

:bigsmyl2:

[dogdoc]

"I don’t get the infatuation with powder coat and hi tech"

Perhaps the question could be phrased, "Are there advantages to powder coating"?
OR
"Do you powder coat and if so, why"?

Or maybe go in the other direction and phrase it like this, "why on earth would anyone in their right mind ever powder coat"? :kidding:

I think I got my point across

[StuBach]

I started with a Lyman 45 using old black tar Lyman lube. Noticed the bullets I inherited with the equipment were lubed so figured that was the way to go till I noticed a ton of bullets where lube dried out and flaked away (granted these were cast 60+ years ago by my grandfather) and that black tar got on everything and didn’t like to come out.

Moved on to making my own felix lube. Smelled great when burning thanks to the ivory soap and I could make it green for wife’s preferences with some green paraffin. Carnuba added a nice polishing function and never saw any leading even in high pressure 44 loads my dad was experimenting with. Only down side is it was sticky and fairly soft so bullets had to be stacked in old ammo boxes to keep them from sticking to each other and getting lube all over bullets.

Than I tried one of Smokes sample packs...so clean, less smoke when shooting (I shoot outside but pistol pit is in a bowl so smoke lingers). Accuracy was as good or better than the Lubed options I’d used in the past. Biggest benefit to me is I can store the bullets in penny boxes from the bank and not worry about them sticking to each other or lube pulling out of the groove and not performing as needed.

As for velocity, my dad did some imperial analysis (he’s helped design several ballistic testing labs so everything is very specific with him) using a Lab Radar and found that speed wise there was a slight benefit to PC but nothing imperially significant.

My 2 cents, use what fits your task/ability. They all will work if done correctly. I love my Star lube sizer and use it for sizing all my bullets, usually after they are PCd. When the fancy strikes me I add pressure to lube channel and go “old school” but have trouble justifying it unless I’m only doing a couple of one off bullets rather than a bulk lot.

One of these days I need to try HiTek just to see how it compares.

[Hanzy4200]

I have the waxy greasy residue of tumble and traditional lubing. I still use the lubrisizer about 50/50 with PC. No more TL. PC giving that nice clean, slick ammo just like factory stuff.

[wrench]

Interesting to see all the different ways our group attacks this issue. Myself, I like to experiment and try new things. I have Star sizers and RCBS lubesizers, I still use them quite a bit and traditionally lube/size most rifle bullets and some calibers of pistol bullets. I've probably got enough lube stored up for the rest of my life.
Also use BLL to tumble lube some bullets, fast, easy and clean.
Still, I've been playing with both Hitek and PC with some calibers.
I occasionally shoot indoors, and the reduction in smoke is appreciated.
I also shoot USPSA, and go through a lot of 9mm bullets. PC and Hitek are fast, clean, less smoke and aren't sticky to store and use.
My mother always used to say, "It takes all kinds to make a world"
:bigsmyl2:

[Conditor22]

"The Powder Coating thing seems to have a steeper learning curve as well."

I have to disagree with this↑↑↑.

You have different lubes for different velocities and different temperatures [smilie=b:

You leave lube on the base of your boolit and it will mess up our charge.

lubed boolit attract dirt and grime

lubed boolits gunk up your dies

lube can fall out or melt out

I made a jig to make hollow lube sticks, mixed my own lube, and made lube sticks (and always made a mess)

lubed boolits smoke more and aren't allowed in many indoor ranges (IF I want the extra smoke I'll shoot my BP guns :) )

lubed boolits are harder to store and your always handling lead, unlike Coated boolits.

coated boolits you can use different colors for different loads

coated boolits are easier to size

you can easily make coated boolits bigger by adding more coats (no need to beagle or polish the mold cavities)

coated boolits lead-less and keep the barrels cleaner

coated boolits can be a little slippery to handle

women like pretty boolits :)

coated boolits have a much smaller/shorter learning curve

coatings are cleaner/easier to store (I have several boxes full of lube sticks (always stored inside) that no longer have a center hole in them :( )

With a 2 shelf oven, you can double coat 44 pounds of boolits in a little over 75 minutes with Hitek.


That being said, there are some long time reloaders that have perfected the lubing process and get excellent results.

In short, you need to do the process you feel the most comfortable with.

[Lloyd Smale]

I started with the lube/sizers and have two of them. Have a good supply of lubes from LARS on hand. All my bullet molds are made to drop my bullets big and all my sizing dies are such to give me .002" over groove diameter. My understanding is that PC'ing is best done with tumble lube type grooves in the bullets, which none of mine are. All this stuff will have to collect dust if I start PC'ing and equals more money wasted. I do however wish I would have known about PC'ing when I started because it does sound like the best way to go. BUT, none of this matters if primers don't start coming back on our shelves. So unless all the planets line up in our favor, I am not going to invest in another rabbit hole.

pc will work with any bullet. Only reason some say tumble lubed or even smooth bullets are better is because they have more surface to grab the rifling. Ive got a star and a lyman and they will collect dust for the most part from here on out. I wont sell them for just in case reasons. But PC just plain works better and is much cleaner. No brainer if you ask me. I was one of the skeptics here when it was realitively new. even got into a few arguments about it. But i gave it a try and had to eat crow. Its the biggest casting advancement since people made round balls over camp fires. Star sizers were a game changer too but pc put us into a different century. cool thing is its even cheaper to get going with if your a new caster. Ive been on a mission all summer trying to shoot up all my lube sized loaded ammo to reload them with pc bullets. I got about a 1/3 of the way through the project. Heck i even gave away a few thousand rounds just asking for the brass back. Right now the only way id lube size a bullet is if i was out of pc and couldnt get any. Ive got a large crock pot full of bullet lube that i used to melt to fill the star Might even take up candle making. Love the smell of an alox based lube. Dont quite think my wife would agree to those scented candles though. :Fire:

[derek45]

once i adapted to powder coating, i sold my lube-a-matic and heater base

I like powder coating much better

less smoke is good for rapid fire gun games like USPSA/IPSC

cleaner gun

cleaner hands after a 500round loading session on the Dillon 650

as we get older, we tend to get resistant to change

i try to ward off that tendency

try new things and new ways

adapt and learn

stay flexible

[robg]

has anyone done a side by side comparison ,same boolit load etc but lubed/tumble lubed/powder coated ?

[Multra]

2500+ fps.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

PC fixed three problem guns for me, a 9mm that leaded no matter what, a tight revolver that started to bind after a few cylinders, and an extractor that accumulated fouling underneath and stopped extracting. By the time I figured it out for those three, I decided it was good enough for everything else. It helps reduce lead exposure to some degree as well. In handling and with loose rounds carried in a pocket. Softer alloys seem to shoot just fine with PC, allows my to blend my wheel weights with pure and stretch them farther.

Has anyone managed to get away with PC in ranges that would not allow cast in the past?

[gwpercle]

What’s the big deal? I cast the bullets, handle them one time through a lubrisizer then load them . No separate sizing operation , no shake and bake, no concern about size variation, No concern about brand of paint, just a very time efficient loading operation. Sure they look pretty but so what. The traditional lubed/ sized bullets shoot great and do not lead. Why change? I have had leading problems with many of the commercial Handgun high tech bullets if velocity is high but that may be too hard bullets with a bevel base. What am I missing? Seems like a waste of time with the extra steps for pretty bullets. Do they group better? Or is it just something different for those with much free time.�� I am not a snowflake so you can flame me. Its all in good fun but I would like to know.

Dogdoc

I agree 100% . Pick up boolit , place it in die (with or without gas check) , pull handle down , tweak lube pressure handle every 3 boolits or so, lift handle and place complete boolit ready for shooting in box .
Tell me again how much easier and faster powder coating is ... I don't see it !
And don't be telling no lies when you explain how much quicker it is . My boolits don't lead so I don't have any leading problems to overcome .
My Lyman 450 was paid off in 1972 ... I don't have to buy anything else but Lube and Gas Checks.
Gary

[303Guy]

I still want to try PC. I like trying new things and as Larry says, it's like putting a jacket on the boolit. Is that correct? That's my objective.

[kevin c]

I'd guess it's also partly what you get used to doing.

My path to coated bullets started with high volume reloading to make shooting action pistol more reasonable cost wise. Commercial cast bullets with standard lube were less expensive than jacketed, but, even outdoors there was too much lube smoke obscuring the targets. The other cast choices I found back then were moly and HiTek. I liked the HiTek better, and went with that when I started casting my own.

I could rationalize my choice based on the smoke, lead exposure, clean up and bore cleaning arguments, all of which seem to have merit, but, really, a lot of the choice boiled down to inertia.

[Mal Paso]

The timing of powder coating was bad. If it had come out at the same time as Lyman's undersize molds I would never have supported all the independent mold makers and bought all those .432" molds. I now have a Star sizer and a perfect lube based platform.

Sorry PC You Are Too Late.

[Froogal]

Some folks like to ride unicycles, some tricycles and others bicycles.

I have thought bout getting a lubrisizer at times but really don't have the space for it at either of our places. When you get older, you tend to "down size'. I have purchased lulled boolits at times and still have some in jars as I don't shoot them so much anymore - and over time, the lube has dried out some.

I have had excellent results with tumble lubing in both handguns and rifles and to me, it's no big deal to TL, lay 'em out to dry and then store.

I have purchased PC'd boolits and have also had some given to me to try - I'm not bit on high tech but I have had excellent results with them and do like them. I can see how some folks like to pC and at some point, I may give it a try.

Yea, using a lubrisizer may be more efficient in that you can size and size in the same operation and I guess, if you shoot a lot or in competition, time is of th4e essence - especially if you are younger, working, have family, etc. But for many, it's to about time or efficiency - it's about the fun and relaxation from doing the various aspects of reloading, casting, etc. I could certainly be more efficient if I used my turret press all the time but I still like to use my old single stage as well as my Lyman 310 steel tongs and dies.

At this point, I am getting more interesting in try PC boolits in a couple of my rifles just to see how well they do as I know some like the results they have in some of their rifles. Fortunately, I have a friend who will PC some for me to try and he'll help me get set up to do it if I decide to take the "PC plunge".

I do not have space for a permanently installed lubri-sizer either. I mounted mine to a plank, and then I clamp the plank to the bench top. When I'm done, the lubri-sizer goes back into storage.

[Larry Gibson]

has anyone done a side by side comparison ,same boolit load etc but lubed/tumble lubed/powder coated ?

I have done several extensive tests, here's one;

Lee 452-230-TC with 4 different PCs vs BAC lubed bullet

Several weeks ago a member offered to send some of his PC’d Lee 452-230-TC cast of COWW + 2% tin to compare, in a side by side test, any difference in velocity, pressure and accuracy they might have against my own like Lee bullets. Sounded like a good test so I took him up on the offer. In due course, after several PMs wherein we cogitated the parameters of the test, a box of bullets arrives. I found, just as he promised, there were 4 batches PC’d with 3 different kinds of PC (one batch had a double coat applied) sized .452. I would load those with my standard 45 ACP load to test against my own TC bullets lubed with BAC.

There were also 4 batches of the same PC’d bullets unsized. I would size those .454 and load over a tested 45 Colt load which I use in my SAAs and M73 Carbine.

All test rounds were loaded on a Dillon SDB press as that’s how I would use them. The powder for both the 45 ACP and 45 Colt is Bullseye. The powder thrower on the SDB was carefully adjusted with charges weighed on an Ohaus 10-0-5 scale. I loaded 5 gr Bullseye in the 45 ACP and 7 gr Bullseye in the 45 Colt. The bullets weighed 230 – 233 gr including my fully dressed lubed bullet.

I used the following firearms in the test;
Uberti M73 Carbine, 45 Colt
M98 Rhineland conversion, 45 ACP
TC Contender barrel, 45 ACP
TC Contender, 45 Colt
S&W M1917/25, 45 ACP
Colt Series 70 w/Ed Brown Match barrel, 45 ACP
Uberti “Evil Roy” SAA, 45 Colt

272085

The cartridges were loaded with my standard loads on the SDB with Dillon SDB 45 ACP dies. A taper crimp was used to straighten out the case mouth flair. The 45 Colt cases were sized in a RCBS steel dies then lube cleaned off. They were loaded on the SDB with the Dillon sizer removed. A slight role crimp was applied to case mouth crimping into the forward edge of the front drive band just behind the start of the ogive.


272090

The loads are as follows;

45 ACP:
Lee 452-230-TC cast of COWW + 2% tin
Bullseye powder at 5.0 gr
A WLP primer
Remington R-P cases
OAL; 1.199”


45 Colt;
Lee 452-230-TC cast of COWWs + 2% tin
Bullseye powder at 7.0 gr
A WLP primer
Winchester W-W case
OAL; 1.588”


Pressure testing was done with the TC Contender barrels via an Oehler M43 PBL. The velocities listed for the Contender tests are muzzle velocities. Accuracy and functional velocities (screen center was 15’ from the muzzle) were done with an Oehler 35P. The handguns accuracy (group size) was done with the target at 25 yards. The 2 rifles were tested with the target at 50 yards. A two handed hold was used on the handguns with hands braced on sandbags. The rifles were shot with the fore hand resting on sandbag with elbows on bench.

All tests were 10 shot test strings (both for pressure and accuracy/velocity testing). The barrels were cleaned between tests and 2 foulers fired prior to record testing.

I completed the rather extensive test (350 rounds “for record” + foulers) of the PC'd bullets in both the 45 Colt and 45 ACP cartridges. Four different firearms (Contender for pressure, Colt M1911, S&W M1917/25, and M98 Rhineland rifle) were used for the 45 ACP tests. Three different firearms were used for the 45 Colt (Contender for psi, Uberti SAA "Evil Roy" and Uberti M73 Carbine) tests.

In this test I found only one of the PC'd 452-230-TC bullets that performed as well accuracy wise as my own with a naked BAC lubed bullet. That PC coating was the Cardinal Gloss Black. None of the other PC’d bullets were found to be more accurate out of any of the Those other PC’d bullets would start out, in several of the firearms giving excellent accuracy but around rounds 6 – 8 the fliers would start. In a couple cases it appeared so bad I began questioning my shooting ability. However, when I shot the Cardinal Gloss Black PC’d bullets and the naked BAC lubed bullets accuracy was as it should have been.

When cleaning I found fouling (PC buildup and leading) to be a problem with two of the PC coatings (both the Sherman Williams coatings and the Cardinal Pearlescent Steel Gray) in several of the firearms, particularly the 6 1/2" barreled M1917/25 and both rifles. The fouling was both from a heavy build up of the PC in the bore and several instances, leading also. Here is some of the leading and PC buildup removed with a Lewis Lead remover after one test string. The leading removed in this picture when the Cardinal Pearlescent Steel grey was shot in the S&W M1917/25.

272086

The Sherman Williams, both 1 and 2 coats, left PC deposits in all the barrels after 6 - 8 rounds with flyers then occurring. They also left leading in the S&W M1917/25 in 45 ACP and Uberti SAA in 45 Colt. The PC fouling could be cleaned out easily with a bronze bore brush and Hoppe's #9. The leading required a Lewis Lead Remover to remove as pictured above. This picture shows the PC residue buildup when the Sherman Williams PC was used, particularly the 2 coated bullets.

272091

As to reducing pressure I found only one of the PC'd bullets demonstrated a measurable (outside of lot to lot variation probable) less psi that the lubed bullet in the 45 Colt but that PC’d bullet gave the highest psi in the 45 ACP, higher than the naked BAC lubed bullet.

Additionally I found one of the PCs (Cardinal Gloss Black) to leave a residue on the firearms (revolvers) worse than regular lube does. There also was considerable residue blown back on the case with the 45 Colt load. Other than that the Cardinal Gloss Black 1 coat worked well in all the firearms and rivaled the naked BAC lubed bullets for accuracy. It gave slightly less psi and slightly less velocity in all the firearms too. However, as mentioned, there was a considerable blackish deposit left in the chambers, on the cylinders of the revolvers and around the carrier of the M73. That did not seem to affect the accuracy and no fouling occurred in any bores. It cleaned off the firearms as readily as the residue from naked BAC lubed bullets.

The Sherman Williams, both 1 and 2 coats, left PC deposits in all the barrels after 6 - 8 rounds with flyers then occurring. They also left leading in the S&W M1917/25 in 45 ACP and Uberti SAA in 45 Colt. The PC fouling could be cleaned out easily with a bronze bore brush and Hoppe's #9. The leading required a Lewis Lead Remover to remove. There will be a couple pictures of that in the article.

The cardinal Pearlescent Steel Gray performed well in all the handguns both ACP and Colt but was pretty inaccurate in both rifles.

I’m not going to draw any conclusions; I’ll let each of you do that by scrutinizing the data. Here are the correlated data for each cartridge:

45 ACP/452-230-TC/5 gr Bullseye/WLP/R-P Case
Sherman Williams
Metallic Silver 1 Coat
Firearm…………… Grp @ 25 yd……..Velocity……SD……..ES……psiM43)…..SD……ES……..
TC Contender………3.9”..(8 in 2.8”)……1019 fps….11 fps…35 fps…..20,200…….900…...3,300……
S&W M1917/25…….4”…(8 in 3”)……….890 fps….15 fps…54 fps…....
Colt Gvm’t M1911….5.5”…………………919 fps…..12 fps…42 fps……
M98 Rifle..(50 yd).....3.2”..(7 in 1.1”)…….1046 fps….17 fps….58 fps…..

Sherman Williams
Metallic Silver 2 Coats
Firearm…………… Grp @ 25 yd…..Velocity…….SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES……..
TC Contender………4.6”……………..1006 fps……19 fps…58 fps……19,400…...1,200….3,400…
S&W M1917/25……5.4”..(9 in 4”)…….903 fps……14 fps…41 fps
Colt Gvm’t M1911…6.5”………………919 fps…….19 fps…54 fps
M98 Rifle…(50 yd)…5.25”……………1044 fps……10 fps…33 fps

Cardinal Pearlescent
Steel Gray 1 Coat
Firearm…………… Grp @ 25 yd…..Velocity….…SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES……..
TC Contender………4.4”……………..1002 fps……14 fps…53 fps……19,900……1,500…4,000
S&W M1917/25…….4.9”………………895 fps...…17 fps…54 fps
Colt Gvm’t M1911….5”………………...917 fps…...10 fps…35 fps
M98 Rifle..(50 yd)…5.2”………………1038 fps…...13 fps…48 fps

Cardinal Gloss
Black 1 Coat
Firearm…………… Grp @ 25 yd……Velocity……SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES……..
TC Contender………2.2”………………996 fps……16 fps…..61 fps……18,700……1,200….4,100
S&W M1917/25……2.2”………………886 fps……16 fps…..43 fps
Colt Gvm’t M1911…3”…………………917 fps……9 fps…...31 fps
M98 Rifle…(50 yd)..3.6”…(8 in 1.4”)…1035 fps…...14 fps….43 fps

Naked Cast
BAC Lube
Firearm…………… Grp @ 25 yd….Velocity…..…SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES……..
TC Contender………2.1”……………..1004 fps……12 fps….40 fps…..18,900…….900……2,900
S&W M1917/25……2.25”…………… 917 fps……..9 fps…..30 fps
Colt Gvm’t M1911…2.75”…………….922 fps…….12 fps….37 fps
M98 Rifle…(50 yd)…2.2”……………1060 fps…….15 fps….45 fps

45 Colt/452-230-TC/7 gr Bullseye/WLP/W-W case
Sherman Williams
Metallic Silver 1 Coat
Firearm………………. Grp @ 25 yd….Velocity………SD…….ES……psiM43)…..SD……ES
TC Contender………….2.8”……………..1080 fps……10 fps….34 fps…..14,800……800……2,900
Uberti Evil Roy SAA…..3.6”……………..896 fps……..12 fps….34 fps..
Uberti M73 Carbine..(50 yd)..3.6”………...1153 fps……12 fps…41 fps

Sherman Williams
Metallic Silver 2 Coats
Firearm………………. Grp @ 25 yd….Velocity……..SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES
TC Contender…………..3.1”……………1070 fps…….12 fps….39 fps…..15,700……500……1,700
Uberti Evil Roy SAA…..3.6”…………….900 fps……...8 fps…...24 fps
Uberti M73 Carbine..(50 yd)….2.8”..……1142 fps…….8 fps……27 fps

Cardinal Pearlescent
Steel Gray 1 Coat
Firearm………………. Grp @ 25 yd….Velocity………SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES
TC Contender………….3.9”…………….1070 fps……..7 fps….20 fps……16,000……600……1,700
Uberti Evil Roy SAA…..5”……………….899 fps……..18 fps…59 fps
Uberti M73 Carbine.;(50 yd)..4.2………...1135 fps………5 fps…17 fps

Cardinal Gloss
Black 1 Coat
Firearm………………. Grp @ 25 yd…..Velocity…..…SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES
TC Contender…………..1.8”……………1066 fps…….11 fps….31 fps……15,900…..500……1,700
Uberti Evil Roy SAA…...2”………………896 fps……..10 fps….31 fps
Uberti M73 Carbine..(50 yd)..2.5”………..1134 fps……13 fps…..49 fps

Naked Cast
BAC Lube
Firearm………………. Grp @ 25 yd…..Velocity……SD…….ES……..…psiM43)…..SD……ES
TC Contender…………..1.8”…………….1078 fps….9 fps…….35 fps……16,700……900……2,900
Uberti Evil Roy SAA…..2”………………..902 fps….12 fps……44 fps
Uberti M73 Carbine..(50 yd)..1.7”………..1135 fps…..5 fps…….15 fps


I also have another involving HT coated 225438s in the 223 Rem and the 314299 in the 7.62x54R. I also have posted other similar results from other tests.

As I previously stated so far PC/HT hasn't shown me any improvement to make it worth while to do. Also I'm not trying anyone not to PC/HT their cast bullets. If it works for you then have at it. PC/HT just doesn't work for me at this time. More power to all who strive to make it better, keep at it and who knows.....I might convert......

[onelight]

Good post Larry thank you !

[Bazoo]

No room for a lubesizer? Throw out the toaster oven.

I am going to try PCing at some point, I have all the stuff. Even found a toaster oven for free.

All the argument of one vs the other, you don't see hardly anyone that does both.

I like traditional lube. Same as traditional guns. There is something "more than the sum of it's parts" about traditional lube.

Can you imagine, reading Keith, and he says. Well back in those days all we had was lube and I didn't want to get my hands and gun dirty, plus the smoke, I decided it wasn't worth the trouble to roll out of bed and go elk hunting that morning.

I think PCing is neat and has it's place. The OP's infatuation remark is spot on with what I've seen. Folks seem more interested in the shiny colors than they are making holes in paper or game.

[303Guy]

I would imagine there is a great deal of satisfaction in making those pretty, near perfect PC boolits. :smile:

Sure makes me want to do it. On the other hand, I don't want to get to spend too much effort in getting set up for PC only to find I haven't actually gained anything. I do have a bag of powder though, some yellow something. It may be the wrong powder but it was free. I also have a toaster oven so I'm actually part way there sort of. I'm sure I can drop in at our local powder coaters and ask for a small amount of specific powder to test.

I'll never know whether there is any benefit to me if I don't try it. And being retired now, I have more time to play.

[Gunslinger1911]

A lot depends on what / how you shoot
I know a guy, has a single cav mould for a 500g 45 boolet, pan lubes, sizes through a special honed die, can hit a 55 gal drum at 1000 yds with his Sharps (I won't even go into his loading procedure - I can load 500 45acp on my Dillon while he loads 20 rds 45/70) lol
I, and my sons, on the other hand shoot the afore mentioned 45acp - a LOT; various 1911's, S&W 625, AR45, you get it.

I have been using a Lyman lub/sizer for decades, dozen dies, heater, Carnuba Red lube - all good.

Use Lee push through dies for some things - bout a dozen of those too

Tried the shake and bake PC thing after it seemed like you guys got the bugs out (thanks for being the beta testers !)

Low initial cost to start, might be fun, might learn something.

Some seem to be able to dump the boolets on to a pan and cook; didn't work for me - I stand em up.

My big expense for PC was a Lee APP, something like $75 and uses my old push through dies - has a 4 tube feeder !
Once I got the procedure down, I could really produce some boolets !
While one batch is cooking (~200), I'm loading another tray and / or sizing.

I have timed both methods; size/lube and PC / size for 500 boolets
For 45 it's kind of a wash, about the same time, just a little quicker PC'ing
Now 9mm - waaaaay faster to PC. Those little 9mm boolets are harder to place into the Lyman.

Add in; non-stickey boolets, way less smoke when shooting, NO gunk in the loading dies, boolets are slicker than whale snot on an ice flow, I can get away with a little more velocity before gas checking, solved my buddies 9mm leading issue; yes, you can make pretty colors - I personally run Smokes clear, But I make pink boolets for the ladies (hey, anything to get em shooting!).
Also, for a gas AR, lube is bad for the gas tube, my 350 Legend and 50 Beowolf can shoot lead with PC.

[Chainsaw.]

For me it was a matter of initial buy in. I was a new caster not that many years ago, I had no sizing lubing equipment. What I did have was a very small budget to work with. A Tupperware from the kitchen cabinet, a second hand toaster oven and a $12 bag of powder and I was set. The results were coated bullets with some of the aforementioned benefits and bores that are clean as a whistle.
If you are set up with a lubrisizer, no reason to pursue powdercoat outside of curiosity.

[Bazoo]

Dumb question, doesn't the PC have to be baked outside cause of fumes?

[ryanmattes]

All the argument of one vs the other, you don't see hardly anyone that does both.

I like traditional lube. Same as traditional guns. There is something "more than the sum of it's parts" about traditional lube.

I do both. I've always been one to start with the traditional way first, and then try newer things, testing against the traditional way as I go, to see if it actually has any benefits.

In fact, I make my own lube from my own beeswax from the hives I keep in the back pasture. My cowboy loads are bare lead with 80/20 bees wax to vasoline, pan lubed, in an NOE version of the 454424 with the square lube groove. Unless I can find an original Ideal 454424 or a lead deposit in my back yard, I'm not sure how I could make it more traditional.

But for high volume, higher velocity 9mm that feeds reliably across a number of pistols, doesn't lead, doesn't smoke, and performs consistently, I've had better luck with Hi-Tek.

In the end, I guess I'm a "use the right tool for the job" kind of guy.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[Petrol & Powder]

I think I got my point across

1. yes you did
2. No offense intended, hence the purple font and "just kidding" following the line
3. I don't powder coat.

[dverna]

My first lube/sizer was a Star. It will lube and size over 1000 .38 bullets an hour. If you need to size, no other method can be faster. A stick of Lars lube is about $2.50...maybe more expensive than other methods, but my time is worth a few pennies. Every other method appears to be step backwards wrt efficiency of use. I use one lube for all pistol bullets. If the Star is properly adjusted the bullet bases and noses are not covered in yuck.

I have a few cans of Johnson One Step for BLL. BLL will only make sense if I can shoot bullets unsized, otherwise I will continue to use the Star. Still working through 25k cast bullets so have not tried BLL yet.

I bought a couple of Lyman 45's in case I ever decide to play with rifle bullets and need a different lube for high velocities.

I am in the process of downsizing from a 400+ sq ft reloading set up in the pole barn to 175 sq ft. in the basement. Even if I wanted to PC, I would not do it indoors. The fumes from PC'ing cannot be pleasant in the house. And frankly, lube/sizers are very space efficient.

I have cast bullets that are more than 10 years old and are not oxidized, so do not see the advantages of putting a condom on them. IMHO if you are getting oxidized bullets you are not shooting enough or storing them in a damp basement. If I had the damp basement problem I would vacuum pack them. BTW, I will be doing that with my inventory of primers as I have too many to store in the house.

[Bazoo]

I do both. I've always been one to start with the traditional way first, and then try newer things, testing against the traditional way as I go, to see if it actually has any benefits.

In fact, I make my own lube from my own beeswax from the hives I keep in the back pasture. My cowboy loads are bare lead with 80/20 bees wax to vasoline, pan lubed, in an NOE version of the 454424 with the square lube groove. Unless I can find an original Ideal 454424 or a lead deposit in my back yard, I'm not sure how I could make it more traditional.

But for high volume, higher velocity 9mm that feeds reliably across a number of pistols, doesn't lead, doesn't smoke, and performs consistently, I've had better luck with Hi-Tek.

In the end, I guess I'm a "use the right tool for the job" kind of guy.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

That's a very insightful way of looking at it. Thanks for sharing.

I've been expecting that the wife's bersa thunder 380 will benefit from PC. I've not loaded for it yet though.

[bmortell]

My first lube/sizer was a Star. It will lube and size over 1000 .38 bullets an hour. If you need to size, no other method can be faster. A stick of Lars lube is about $2.50...maybe more expensive than other methods

im sure a star sizer is fast and what not, but i just priced one with die punch and heater and it was over 500 dollars. thats just way out of my price range when i can just use a free old toaster oven and butter container with a few pennies of powder coat. if it takes me a few minutes to shake bullets and set them in the oven thats not a big deal to me.

[Mal Paso]

Dumb question, doesn't the PC have to be baked outside cause of fumes?

Those fumes are what gets people Hooked on powder coating. That's why they can't quit and get so defensive when you question them about it.




LOL

[Chainsaw.]

Dumb question, doesn't the PC have to be baked outside cause of fumes?

Not really. At least the brand of powder I use. you can smell something cooking but its not at all bad.

[Finster101]

Here in FLA it's hot most of the time, hence traditional lube stickiness is a real issue for me. I like PC mostly for that reason. Do I play around with the colors? Yes, sometimes because I can and it takes no more time but it is not the primary reason for coating. I won't say it out performs regular lube but it is easier and less mess for me. So do as you like and as usual I will too.

[oldhenry]

I don't PC (yet).
I've been casting since '60 & in that time period I would have been ripe to change to PC. The Lyman 45 was slow & some of the lubes back then were just OK: not great. Then came the Star & Tamerac & I was happy. Later came BAC & I was ecstatic.

I don't have a storage problem: however, I spend extra time arranging the boolits in rows usually 3 trays deep per container. I made the trays from medium strength cardboard with tabs on each end. I can lift a tray from the container (with boolits) & have them on the left side of the 550s. I recognize that I'm spending time arranging them, but it's nice to have them readily available.

I'm old fashioned & can't get excited over the "zombie" green, yellows & light blues. I could like black and possibly red.

I can see PC as an advantage with rifle calibers. As it turns out my shooting now is handgun only: so. I'm happy as I am, but PC curious.

[dverna]

im sure a star sizer is fast and what not, but i just priced one with die punch and heater and it was over 500 dollars. thats just way out of my price range when i can just use a free old toaster oven and butter container with a few pennies of powder coat. if it takes me a few minutes to shake bullets and set them in the oven thats not a big deal to me.

I completely understand. I bought my first Star over 45 years ago. IIRC is was about $100 with die an punch, which was an enormous sum to a college kid. but back then there were few options....heck Lee had not even made a pot yet!

If I was mentoring a young person who wanted to cast, I would go through the current options. I would likely suggest starting with something like the Lee APP and BLL. Very cheap and fast. Likely will cover every pistol caliber and most rifle loads under 1800 fps and serve the needs of most people. If BLL would not work for HV rifle, add PC at minimal cost.

If the person was going to be a serious shooter, I would suggest the Star option. BTW, a heater is not needed for most lubes but it is still a $400 investment. Over a casting "career" of 20 years the machine will be free. It will have appreciated in value so much. Used Stars go for over 50% of the price of new one. And for those 20 years the person will have the most productive way to lube and size cast bullets.

I used to shoot 3-400 rounds a week. Not typical and I understand that. My pet peeve is people who say PC is the fastest way to get the job done, when plainly it cannot be. Very few people need a Star...just like few need a Dillon 1050.

I no longer "need" either but they are bought and paid for, are a joy to use, and do not depreciate. A long way from the Wack-a-Mole I started with.

[dale2242]

Good post Larry.
Well documented experiment.

[salvadore]

of course, pc bullets are jacketed bullets.

[derek45]

Those fumes are what gets people Hooked on powder coating. That's why they can't quit and get so defensive when you question them about it.




LOL

hey man,......I can quit any time !


:D

[Mk42gunner]

I don't powder coat, yet, maybe.

I haven't tumble lubed yet, but that is changing as we speak (I write). I am planning to tumble lube for .38 Special wadcutters, at least if my mold allows me to load as cast.

I solved my personal storage problems with sticky lubes by storing unlubed boolits, then lubing as needed. This can be a pain, as the one at a time in and out of either the RCBS or Lyman lubrisizers seems to be my big slow down in the loading process.

I don't leave my lubrisizers set up on the bench all the time, they are mounted to a 2x6 about 18 inches long (whatever scrap was handy when the time came). When I use them, I attach them to my loading bench with a couple of three inch deck screws.

I'm not really averse to trying powder coating, its just that what I do now works for me; and I learned a long time ago that if it works, don't mess with it.

Robert

[dogdoc]

1. yes you did
2. No offense intended, hence the purple font and "just kidding" following the line
3. I don't powder coat.

Certainly no offense taken!I knew you were poking fun. I am old school in that sticks and stones may break my bones but words may never hurt me. The problem with text is there is no voice inflection to signal your intent so I should have put a smiley face after my facetious comment.
��. I enjoy the comments!

[William Yanda]

94 posts in just over 24 hours. Is this a record?

[dtknowles]

The great PC debate. New is controversial. PC has its place. It is here to stay and that is a good thing. I have not PC my first bullet but then I am shooting and testing other things. Is it better, yes and no it depends.

Tim

[Three44s]

“I don’t get the infatuation with powder coat and hi tech”

That’s ok because it leaves more powder coat for the rest of us! LOL!

Three44s

[303Guy]

Someone asked in another thread whether one could PC copper condom bullets. To me that is a good question. Reason being that I insist on playing around with obsolete and over throat and bore sized Lee Enfields, some of which are worn/corroded or just made oversize to the point they could almost take 8mm bullets. Enter powder coating. Well, that's one of my ideas to try anyway. Not for target shooting mind you. I'm not sure where I'm going with target shooting but I can see powder coated smooth sided custom mold cast to fit throat boolits as a distinct possibility.

[onelight]

My cast I tumble lube or use my Lyman sizer .
But I also shoot a lot of commercial cast Hi-Tek coated that are not what I would call premium bullets , but work well for most of my range use in light to medium loads with this price range of bulk bullets I find that the coating leads less , compared to bulk cast with the lube most commercial casters use in this price range of bullet. So I like both coated , traditional lubed and tumble lubed. They all have a place on my bench.

[PBaholic]

I PC with regular Polyester PC.

Almost no smoke when shooting, gun stays clean.
Can use softer (lower BHN) lead, and NEVER any leading.
40,000 PC .45 ACP's through my Ruger P345. I can't see any wear of the rifling.

[derek45]

Pretty sure if you call Missouri bullet, SNS, Bayou bullet, etc., they will tell you the coated is what is most popular now.

[Lloyd Smale]

has anyone done a side by side comparison ,same boolit load etc but lubed/tumble lubed/powder coated ?

if your talking accuracy your old load development is about thrown out the door. I get about have the cases where accuracy increases and half that decrease. Most times with a little experimenting i can get it back though. differnt primer another grain more or less of powder. If your talking leading or cleanliness theres no comparison. Matter of fact it opens you up to being able to shoot near jacketed speeds and allows a guy that doesnt have access to lead hard enough to do over 1500 conventioanly lubed to shoot those same bullets at near 3000. Now keep in mind that when your pushing ANY cast bullet of ANY alloy up past 2000 fps your in an area that most casters struggle with. Even to me its more work then its worth. but it does add on 500 fps with normal alloys with fairly obtainable accuracy. One thing ive heard nobody show on here is a down side to it. There is none. Its cheaper, cleaner, and better in every way. Id no sooner give it up and go back to lube sizing then I would to shop for a truck that needed to be crank started or had kerosene headlights.

[dale2242]

PBaholic, 40k rounds is very impressive.
That speaks highly of Ruger quality.
No barrel wear.
You must maintain you Ruger regularly.
Any other parts showing wear?

[dtknowles]

if your talking accuracy your old load development is about thrown out the door. I get about have the cases where accuracy increases and half that decrease. Most times with a little experimenting i can get it back though. differnt primer another grain more or less of powder. If your talking leading or cleanliness theres no comparison. Matter of fact it opens you up to being able to shoot near jacketed speeds and allows a guy that doesnt have access to lead hard enough to do over 1500 conventioanly lubed to shoot those same bullets at near 3000. Now keep in mind that when your pushing ANY cast bullet of ANY alloy up past 2000 fps your in an area that most casters struggle with. Even to me its more work then its worth. but it does add on 500 fps with normal alloys with fairly obtainable accuracy. One thing ive heard nobody show on here is a down side to it. There is none. Its cheaper, cleaner, and better in every way. Id no sooner give it up and go back to lube sizing then I would to shop for a truck that needed to be crank started or had kerosene headlights.

Down sides, it adds two extra steps to making bullets, shaking and baking. Instead of cast, size shoot you have to cast, shake, bake, size shoot.

How can you claim it is cleaner when Larry showed that it leaves plastic residues in the barrel.

How is it better if you have to throw out years of load development and start over.

PC is better........sometimes for some situations and for people just getting started.

Tim

[rototerrier]

Never had any plastic residue in my barrels. Maybe undercured? I'd also assume a few copper jackets would blow out plastic? Seems like a non issue if one had that issue. All my barrels that shoot pc are spotless.

I love the smokeless clean nature of pc. And driving them full speed. I treat them like jacketed in pistol calibers.

[JM7.7x58]

What’s the big deal? I cast the bullets, handle them one time through a lubrisizer then load them . No separate sizing operation , no shake and bake, no concern about size variation, No concern about brand of paint, just a very time efficient loading operation. Sure they look pretty but so what. The traditional lubed/ sized bullets shoot great and do not lead. Why change? I have had leading problems with many of the commercial Handgun high tech bullets if velocity is high but that may be too hard bullets with a bevel base. What am I missing? Seems like a waste of time with the extra steps for pretty bullets. Do they group better? Or is it just something different for those with much free time.😀 I am not a snowflake so you can flame me. Its all in good fun but I would like to know.

Dogdoc

I just scrolled through your 210 posts. It looks like most of your focus is on straight wall revolver cartridges. In fact you had only two or three posts that were related to rifle loads.

So, yes it would seem that you are very well set up with your lubrasizers. I would suggest that you don't change a thing.

Now for me. Having spent less than fifty dollars to get set up to PC. It sure was nice to be able to get that horribly undersized Lyman 311290 up to size with PC. It was nice to find an accurate 2100fps load with soft alloy for the Lee 312-155-2R. And, it was great to shoot the high pressure 40s&w with soft alloy and zero leading with PC (this gun has a very short and sharp throat).

I could care less about color. I use PC because of the mechanical advantages that it offers in certain application. Plain and simple PC is a hard plastic jacket, lube is just a fundamentally different system. Both have their own unique advantages.

I still use 45/45/10 tumble lube in 38 special, 357 mag, 45acp, and low velocity plain base 30cal small game loads. I still use the 45/45/10 because it works well, and is easy to coat large bulk amounts.

JM

[rbuck351]

I use both methods but I find the Star lube sizer to be a lot faster than PC especially when trying to stand up a tray full of 55gr 22cal boolits. My pistol/revolver boolits don't lead and smoke on my at home outdoor range is not an issue. The only boolits I pc are for rifle at speeds over 2000. The Star does a very nice job of putting lube only where it belongs and long term storage hasn't been a problem and I use FWFL which is very cheap. PC does work for fixng undersize boolits but so does my Swag-O-Matic. I don't find either lube or PC to be the do all/end all for boolit prep.

[Mal Paso]

Never had any plastic residue in my barrels. Maybe undercured? I'd also assume a few copper jackets would blow out plastic? Seems like a non issue if one had that issue. All my barrels that shoot pc are spotless.

I love the smokeless clean nature of pc. And driving them full speed. I treat them like jacketed in pistol calibers.

See the denial!


Down sides, it adds two extra steps to making bullets, shaking and baking. Instead of cast, size shoot you have to cast, shake, bake, size shoot.

How can you claim it is cleaner when Larry showed that it leaves plastic residues in the barrel.

How is it better if you have to throw out years of load development and start over.

PC is better........sometimes for some situations and for people just getting started.

Tim

It's too late for those who have inhaled the fumes!

[Kraschenbirn]

I guess I'm something of a reloading junkie...constantly tinkering with my loads, experimenting with different boolit designs, adjusting powder charges, etc...and, after 4 years of powder-coating, I still have one of my Lyman 450s bolted to my workbench and still have two (or three?) pans of Emmert's Lube in the supply cabinet. In other words, I use whatever gives me the best results downrange. In my experience, for handgun, PC is just as accurate and shoots cleaner without significant increase in time required between ingots and finished boolits. For CF rifle, I've found it's about a 50/50 split; in some cases, I've not been able to improve (or even duplicate) the accuracy of my lubrisized loads from a specific gun while, in others, PC performs as well or better but such improvement rarely comes easy. I've got a sub-MOA load for my heavy-barrel Savage M10 that uses a bore-rider boolit requiring about 4X the time to finish because the nose has to be sized before and after coating...that's three passes with a push-thru. Last, there's my straight-wall BPCRs where, for both black and smokeless, I pan-lube with Emmert's because I've found that's what works best for me. (The one exception to this is my 'fun' load for the Trapdoor Carbine; a PC'd 405 gr RN over 13.5 gr Unique to duplicate ballistics of the 45-405-55 Gov't round.)

In other words, I'm not all that 'infatuated' but do use PC where I've found. by 'hands on' experience, it has a definite advantage.

Bill

[AlHunt]

Wow. I never thought powder coating would inflame such passionate opposition.

[dtknowles]

See the denial!



It's too late for those who have inhaled the fumes!

Yeah, I think that was the original point of this thread. Not that PC isn't great but that some people are just rabid about it.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Wow. I never thought powder coating would inflame such passionate opposition.

What post was passionately opposed to Powder Coating. I must have missed it.

Tim

[dtknowles]

I just scrolled through your 210 posts. It looks like most of your focus is on straight wall revolver cartridges. In fact you had only two or three posts that were related to rifle loads.

So, yes it would seem that you are very well set up with your lubrasizers. I would suggest that you don't change a thing.

Now for me. Having spent less than fifty dollars to get set up to PC. It sure was nice to be able to get that horribly undersized Lyman 311290 up to size with PC. It was nice to find an accurate 2100fps load with soft alloy for the Lee 312-155-2R. And, it was great to shoot the high pressure 40s&w with soft alloy and zero leading with PC (this gun has a very short and sharp throat).

I could care less about color. I use PC because of the mechanical advantages that it offers in certain application. Plain and simple PC is a hard plastic jacket, lube is just a fundamentally different system. Both have their own unique advantages.

I still use 45/45/10 tumble lube in 38 special, 357 mag, 45acp, and low velocity plain base 30cal small game loads. I still use the 45/45/10 because it works well, and is easy to coat large bulk amounts.

JM

What is 45/45/10?

[Bazoo]

45/45/10 is LLA and paste wax and mineral spirits tumble lube.

I have tried PC'ed bullets in my 30-30. I got plastic fouling and it was harder to remove than lead fouling but not as bad as copper. I only shot like 20 shots. The bullets were sent to me by a member here some years back.

With those bullets I noticed the noses are enlarged, and in my rifle they wouldn't chamber freely unless seated deeper. Seating past the crimp groove is an issue. I crimp my 30-30 loads.

The bullets in question, were done by a member that has good success with it.

[jessdigs]

I got into casting when powder coating was already a thing. I read you can push them faster, and use softer lead. I get lead pipe out of the ground, and solder scraps from work. In CA, wheel weights are hard to find, but I got about 1000 lbs free once.
I don't do alloy math when I cast and powder coat. I add a wheel weight ingot, some pure lead from lead pipe or cast iron bell ends, some 50/50 or 60/40 solder, and a sprinkle of lino or mono. It usually tests from 12-18. When Powder coated I have never had a problem with accuracy or leading.

I've never tried traditional lubed cast boolits. I've never tried commercial cast boolits.
If i see a lubrisizer for a decent price I will most likely try it. But i have so much invested in push through sizing equipment, app press, etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[JM7.7x58]

What is 45/45/10?
I would refer you to the “Boolit Lube” section of this fine website. Specifically to the fourth sticky entitled “ Tumble Lubing--Made Easy & Mess-Free”. There you find a a long thread that goes into great detail about 45/45/10.

Before he passed on Recluse gave us a fine lube recipe.

Here is a link.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?67654-Tumble-Lubing-Made-Easy-amp-Mess-Free

JM

[Murphy]

After 30+ years of casting and lubing with a lube sizer (Lyman & Star), I can't deny I haven't been tempted to try powder coating. I can see the advantages of it, no doubt. On the other hand, my shop seems to have shrank in size over the years. Oh well, never hurts to learn and add another trick in the bag when it comes to cast boolits.

Murphy

[44MAG#1]

I stand in the middle on powder coating as I said. I do some bullets PC'ed and some sized and lubed. If it is very cold out and I go to a local indoor range you can bet your new vehicle I will be using PC'ed bullet loads.
Out doors it is maybe 50/50.
I do what pleases me as long as I am not infringing on someone else.
Now, if anyone would answer this is, why would anyone be so interested in what someone else does?
My belief is do what you want as long as it doesn't cost me anything or interfere with me.
Am I wrong to believe this way?

[Lloyd Smale]

Down sides, it adds two extra steps to making bullets, shaking and baking. Instead of cast, size shoot you have to cast, shake, bake, size shoot.

How can you claim it is cleaner when Larry showed that it leaves plastic residues in the barrel.

How is it better if you have to throw out years of load development and start over.

PC is better........sometimes for some situations and for people just getting started.

Tim

ive shot thousands and no plastic build up. I dont shake in a container. I cast my bullets and the next day when there cooled put about 10lbs in the tumbler and do some reloading for about a 1/2 hour. take them out dump them on a collator and then dump them on a try and stick them in the oven. While that batch cooks another batch goes in the tumbler and back to reloading. take the bullets out of the oven put the next batch in and repeat. no more time then doing it with a lubesizer when you factor in changing dies plugging lube holes to match the number of lube groves adjusting the punch to line those holes up with every different bullet. Farting around getting your heat set right for your lube and having to clean your gun about every time you go shooting. Cleaning out seating dies that get full of lube. Load development?? I quit sitting on a bench with cast bullets years ago. Dont see a real need for it. Most of us shoot beer cans at 25 yards or deer out to maybe 50 yards and a 2-3 inch load at 25 yards takes care of that and if your gun wont shoot that well without a lot of load developement your best off taking it to the dealer and trading it on a GOOD gun. Only bench work for me anymore is long range rifle stuff. I was just telling my buddy who has forgot more then i know that i dont do it anymore. he told me he learned that long ago. Most good handgun hunters spend there time standing on there feet and practicing trigger control. A 1/2 inch differnce in group size at 25 yards means nothing to me and that said it in my experience it is just as likely to be a 1/2 better then a 1/2 in worse. If it were twice as much work i do it to have the benefit of shooting ANY lead at high velocity without leading and most of all because my gun doesnt turn into a grease gun after 500 rounds at the range. Back when i shot ppc we had a few shoots indoors and my smoky loads angered some that shot next to me. Thats no longer an issue (but to be honest i dont shoot comp anymore either) Add to that no more lube dripped on the bench or floor. No more lube to attract dirt and dust to your bullets. Did is say a cleaner gun:Fire:

[Lloyd Smale]

Yeah, I think that was the original point of this thread. Not that PC isn't great but that some people are just rabid about it.

Tim

not rabid about anything tim. but when somethings better i dont hold on to old traditions just because there old. I bought a star many years ago when they were relatively new because they were just better then a lyman and faster and that meant less time loading and more time at the range. When i got my first dillion I knew right there that i would NEVER load another round of handgun or 556 ammo on a single state again. now ive got 4 progressive presses. Why? Because the less time i spend loading the more time i can shoot. Many here hold on to ladle casting, single stage presses, lyman lubesizers and even tumble lube (if you want fast why dont you just do that) Ive been casting for 50 years. In that time ive seen very little other then the star sizer make any great improvement in casting. PC changed the game and this old fart isnt bullheaded enough to not see it has advantages and NO disadvantages. I still have my star. It works good for bullet sizes i dont have lee sizing dies for. But thats about it. Yup i could go back to lubesizing and get along. But WHY? when some smart guy figured out that coating bullets with pc worked better. I thank him. Me rabid Tim? Im rabid about shooting. The only reason i load and cast is so i can shoot. it quit being fun 30 years ago. Its something i have to do to be able to enjoy what i love and thats shooting.

[Bazoo]

Folks talk about lube being messy. Well with my 450, it ain't messy. Pan lubing wasn't too bad either really. I can foresee spilling PC and bbs all over the porch however.

[charlie b]

45/45/10 is LLA and paste wax and mineral spirits tumble lube.

I have tried PC'ed bullets in my 30-30. I got plastic fouling and it was harder to remove than lead fouling but not as bad as copper. I only shot like 20 shots. The bullets were sent to me by a member here some years back.

With those bullets I noticed the noses are enlarged, and in my rifle they wouldn't chamber freely unless seated deeper. Seating past the crimp groove is an issue. I crimp my 30-30 loads.

The bullets in question, were done by a member that has good success with it.

Sounds like the bullets you got were bore riding bullets not sized properly to your bore, which was why they were hard to chamber and caused deposits in your bore.

When I use bore riders (which is most of the time) they require separate sizing steps to make the bullet noses fit the bore after coating. Yes, I cast, size and crimp on gas check, then nose size .002" smaller than bore, then coat, then size, then nose size to exact bore size (.302 in my case).

FWIW, when I shoot with lube I also nose size the bullets for that perfect fit.

Yes, this is a lot of steps, but, I have plenty of time on my hands :) I also like sub MOA results and am still trying for closer to .5MOA.

PS if you do get PC fouling in the bore it is easily cleaned out with acetone. I usually use Ed's Red cleaner, which has a bit of acetone in it. It cleans just as easy as jacketed.

[Bazoo]

The bullets were lee 309-150-F. Far as I know that's not considered a bore riding bullet. I was sent the mould that the bullets in question came from, and lubed with grease they load and shoot fine.

Best I've gotten with that rifle (winchester 94) was round 1.5 inches at 70 yards.

I don't have much interest in small groups though. 1.5 at 100 out of a scoped bolt action rifle comes easy enough and that's all I strive for. Most of the time my shooting isn't from the bench though.

[higgins]

I break down handloads I find at the range. Most of the PC'd bullets I pull with an inertia puller have the coating scraped off of part of the bullet by the crimp; normally lubed ones don't have the grease scraped out of the grooves. I'm probably oversimplifying, and I realize that PC powders are different and reloaders have different skill levels, but tumble lube or grease seem to be more durable. I haven't tried PC so can't speak from person experience with applying PC, loading PC'd bullets, or accuracy testing.

[444ttd]

do what YOU want. i haven't got on the pc wagon, i just tumble or lubersize the boolit. it werks, so why bother. the pc boolit maybe a great way to go, but i like the old way. if your a pc'er, great. if your an old timer, great.

[Iowa Fox]

After 50 plus years of lube sizing I broke down. Last week I ordered a sample pack and BBs from smoke. I've got 4-450's 1-LAM, and 1-Star, We'll see how things go.

[303Guy]

...
I do what pleases me as long as I am not infringing on someone else.

Now, if anyone would answer this is, why would anyone be so interested in what someone else does?
...
Exactly right.

I might be able to answer that one - those of us on the fence are looking for reasons to be drawn in and smell the fumes. :mrgreen:

What's of significance to me in this thread is the presentation of both sides of the fence with the pros and cons. I also detect a little bit of ribbing. An example now is that I had never heard of any disadvantages and failures. Good to know about those. I never for a moment thought PC was going to be massively easier and in fact, I always imagined it was going to be a bit more effort while on the other hand, I imagined PC would be conducive to bulk preparation. I see I could be wrong there but that's not the issue really. More importantly, which is more fun to do? Which is better for practice shooting (shake and bake sounds like a contender to me).

I'm thinking that PC could out paper patching in some instances. One problem with the paper patch is wetness. Here in New Zealand it can get pretty wet in the winter months! See the appeal of PC over PP for bush hunting? So why not just go jacketed or plain lubed? You seen the condition of my mud and bush carbine barrel? I won't shoot anything other than PP unless I can force an 8mm Jacked through it (sized down a little maybe) but 8mm is unobtainium in my prts for some reason (or are they?) Anyway, you can see the appeal of cast and PC'd to me. Besides all that that, they look pretty darn pretty to me! :mrgreen:

Oh yes, I've mentioned PC'ing jacketed's. That's purely to get them to fit. Worth a try I would say.

[dtknowles]

ive shot thousands and no plastic build up. I dont shake in a container. I cast my bullets and the next day when there cooled put about 10lbs in the tumbler and do some reloading for about a 1/2 hour. take them out dump them on a collator and then dump them on a try and stick them in the oven. While that batch cooks another batch goes in the tumbler and back to reloading. take the bullets out of the oven put the next batch in and repeat. no more time then doing it with a lubesizer when you factor in changing dies plugging lube holes to match the number of lube groves adjusting the punch to line those holes up with every different bullet. Farting around getting your heat set right for your lube and having to clean your gun about every time you go shooting. Cleaning out seating dies that get full of lube. Load development?? I quit sitting on a bench with cast bullets years ago. Dont see a real need for it. Most of us shoot beer cans at 25 yards or deer out to maybe 50 yards and a 2-3 inch load at 25 yards takes care of that and if your gun wont shoot that well without a lot of load developement your best off taking it to the dealer and trading it on a GOOD gun. Only bench work for me anymore is long range rifle stuff. I was just telling my buddy who has forgot more then i know that i dont do it anymore. he told me he learned that long ago. Most good handgun hunters spend there time standing on there feet and practicing trigger control. A 1/2 inch differnce in group size at 25 yards means nothing to me and that said it in my experience it is just as likely to be a 1/2 better then a 1/2 in worse. If it were twice as much work i do it to have the benefit of shooting ANY lead at high velocity without leading and most of all because my gun doesnt turn into a grease gun after 500 rounds at the range. Back when i shot ppc we had a few shoots indoors and my smoky loads angered some that shot next to me. Thats no longer an issue (but to be honest i dont shoot comp anymore either) Add to that no more lube dripped on the bench or floor. No more lube to attract dirt and dust to your bullets. Did is say a cleaner gun:Fire:

A half inch difference at 25 yards is two inches at 100 yards and that matters when you are standing on two feet shooting to hit a 10 inch plate at 100 yards with a revolver.

My lube sizer does not have a heater, doesn't need one. I never drip or spill lube on my bench or floor. I don't get lube in my seating dies. My reloading time does not limit my shooting time. They don't overlap. Shooting time takes priority if it did. I have plenty of ammo.

I don't think I ever shot 500 rounds in a single day. 200 rounds would be a lot for me and would not be typical. 3" rifle groups at 100 yards is disappointing even with cast bullets. I don't seem to need to clean my handguns every trip to the range. When shooting my bench rest guns I clean every 10 money shots and fire a few fouling shots before starting the next string even with jacketed bullets.

I have been mostly using loads I developed years ago. I did get some new brass and a new mold recently so I am developing a new load right now. It is a bore riding bullet, PC on the nose and it would not fit the bore. I bumped it up just 0.001" and the nose was engraved by the lands.

Lube does not attract dust and dirt to bullets. Exposed lube will collect dust so yet to be loaded lubed bullets should be kept in containers. Rarely do the noses of my bullets have lube on them and when the do I wipe it off. Did you know that some of the most expensive and most accurate .22 LR ammo has a soft sticky lube on the noses of the bullets. You just leave them in the box until you are ready to put them in the magazine or gun.

You see this is why PC is a good thing but not necessarily a necessary thing. Not everyone does the same kind of shooting or loading.

I have said before. I think PC is a good thing. I might even try it some day given a reason.

Tim

[44MAG#1]

dtknowles said. "A half inch difference at 25 yards is two inches at 100 yards and that matters when you are standing on two feet shooting to hit a 10 inch plate at 100 yards with a revolver."

Can you consistently hit a 10 inch steel plate at 100 yards offhand with your handgun? I mean hitting it far, far more than missing it?
Just curious

[Bazoo]

I don't spill lube on my bench or floor or have lube build up in my dies either when using bullets that have been run through the lubesizer.

[white eagle]

What’s the big deal? I cast the bullets, handle them one time through a lubrisizer then load them . No separate sizing operation , no shake and bake, no concern about size variation, No concern about brand of paint, just a very time efficient loading operation. Sure they look pretty but so what. The traditional lubed/ sized bullets shoot great and do not lead. Why change? I have had leading problems with many of the commercial Handgun high tech bullets if velocity is high but that may be too hard bullets with a bevel base. What am I missing? Seems like a waste of time with the extra steps for pretty bullets. Do they group better? Or is it just something different for those with much free time.😀 I am not a snowflake so you can flame me. Its all in good fun but I would like to know.

Dogdoc

wait till you have been doing this awhile
you'll see what the hub bub is
no messy lube gumming up everything
its quite refreshing really

[Green Lizzard]

If it was as good or better you would be seeing it on the line at matches(you don't) and they record and list everything they do, I do PC and have even shot matches with it, sometimes it's almost as good, never better, most of the times it works good to make a bullet fit better when it's a bit undersized. For hunting and plinking I think it's great and I still use it for that

Bill

[dtknowles]

dtknowles said. "A half inch difference at 25 yards is two inches at 100 yards and that matters when you are standing on two feet shooting to hit a 10 inch plate at 100 yards with a revolver."

Can you consistently hit a 10 inch steel plate at 100 yards offhand with your handgun? I mean hitting it far, far more than missing it?
Just curious

That depends on what you consider consistently. The handgun is a Dan Wesson SuperMag in .357 Max. with an 8" barrel and iron sights. Sometimes I miss the plate. 3 or 4 hits out of 5 is typical until I get tired which does not take long. I have done 8 hits in a row. Sometimes I miss the plate a lot. The first time I shot the plate I was shooting off a rest to get the hold over and when I hit the plate a few times it got the attention of some of the other shooters. I reloaded and stood up and the very first standing shot was a hit. I went on and got 3 hits out of five. I left the range feeling pretty good that day.

Tim

[Gunslinger1911]

***** You see this is why PC is a good thing but not necessarily a necessary thing. Not everyone does the same kind of shooting or loading. ********
Tim[/QUOTE]

THIS, right here, says it all.

My post above was a mile long trying to say this.

[dtknowles]

wait till you have been doing this awhile
you'll see what the hub bub is
no messy lube gumming up everything
its quite refreshing really

You are doing something wrong if you have messy lube gumming up everything.

Tim

[bmortell]

What's of significance to me in this thread is the presentation of both sides of the fence with the pros and cons. I also detect a little bit of ribbing. An example now is that I had never heard of any disadvantages and failures.

disadvantage is mainly time. unless you dont mind visual imperfections in the paint people have ways of quick bulk processing. sometimes the size change hurts instead of helps like one of my bore riding 30's jams rifling after coating. actual failure of the coating doing its job shouldnt be a problem much if one uses fresh or cleaned boolits, proven powder and baking recommendation and boolits fitting the gun properly. for example someone gets some color from a company thats probably the first time its ever been tried for this purpose, instead id recomend a 3 sample pack from smokes in primary colors then you can make your own colors when you want without trying anything new.

some small things when you re-melt coated leads it dont smell great so you want to get a flux fire going on it quickly. in some situations a lube grove depends on the the lube being in it to keep shape otherwise it can exit the muzzle with 1 large bearing surface, unsure how much this matters. seating my coated boolits used to feel grippy when i dry tumbled cases but stopped when i started wet tumbling, but others didnt seem to have this problem. about all i can think of. at the moment im just happy i can go deer hunting with OD green bullets. last year i tried bright orange and all the deers ran away :cry:

[Grump]

[snip] Don't have to change lube for different velocities either. [snip]
Slim

Well, that Quest thread/project was supposed to address that with a lube that worked from about 10F or lower all the way up to 110+. I think that SL-67B was one of the better results. There was also an SL-71 or so shortly before it fizzled out. I'm also after peak accuracy out of the bullseye handguns. PC etc. are getting more popular but since my guns shoot 2-1/2 inches at 50 yards, I don't have the "room" to play with something that seems to add at least a half-inch to group sizes out there. Unless you're buying what someone else coated, I'm with dogdoc and still ain't so interested.

[JM7.7x58]

If it was as good or better you would be seeing it on the line at matches(you don't) and they record and list everything they do, I do PC and have even shot matches with it, sometimes it's almost as good, never better, most of the times it works good to make a bullet fit better when it's a bit undersized. For hunting and plinking I think it's great and I still use it for that

Bill

I tend to believe that lube when properly tuned, and at the right temperature, and after a few fouling shots will always provide slightly smaller groups than PC.

Yet, “lube flyers” aren’t a thing with PC. PC doesn’t melt on hot days. It doesn’t need a fouling shot. What PC will do is reliably give the same accuracy on August 15th at the range, as it will on November 22nd (which happens to be the last day of deer season where I live). First shot reliability is more important for some situations. There are no fouling shots while hunting.

Is PC the best tool for winning bench rest matches? Probably not.

When making a decision between lube or PC I try to remind myself that there is a reason the magazine is called the “Fouling Shot.”

JM

[Grump]

[snip]
Can you consistently hit a 10 inch steel plate at 100 yards offhand with your handgun? I mean hitting it far, far more than missing it?
Just curious
With the .45, the .357/.38Spl, and the .22, all with the right ammunition.

The .40 S&W? Lucky shots. Gave up on load development for that one years ago.

The .38 S&Ws? I know better than to try.

[tmanbuckhunter]

I do both. For rifle I've found it to be a mute point... I rarely exceed 2300 FPS, and rarely need an alloy above Lyman No.2, and have found to get far better accuracy with lubrisized projectiles. For tumble lube bullets and pistol bullets though, it's the only way to fly.

[derek45]

Get behind your DILLON XL650 and load up 1000 rounds.

Look at your left paw after handling all that lead. stained with lead.

Wash your hands and load up 1000 coated bullets, your hands are still clean

https://i.imgur.com/vQUgW2m.jpg

[Lloyd Smale]

I break down handloads I find at the range. Most of the PC'd bullets I pull with an inertia puller have the coating scraped off of part of the bullet by the crimp; normally lubed ones don't have the grease scraped out of the grooves. I'm probably oversimplifying, and I realize that PC powders are different and reloaders have different skill levels, but tumble lube or grease seem to be more durable. I haven't tried PC so can't speak from person experience with applying PC, loading PC'd bullets, or accuracy testing.

if thats happening your either not flaring or have your dies set wrong. What you need to do is seat and crimp in separate stations so that your not still pushing down your bullet as you crimp.

[Lloyd Smale]

dtknowles said. "A half inch difference at 25 yards is two inches at 100 yards and that matters when you are standing on two feet shooting to hit a 10 inch plate at 100 yards with a revolver."

Can you consistently hit a 10 inch steel plate at 100 yards offhand with your handgun? I mean hitting it far, far more than missing it?
Just curious

just a small differnce in trigger pull or the tiniest of differnce is sight pictue will throw you off much more then that at a 100yards. What makes you better at a 100 yards is actually standing on your feet and shooting at a 100 yards. Id dare say ive done at least as much long range handgunning then you and im talking way out past a 100 yards. Add to that there probably isnt a man here that is good enough (including myself) to ethicaly shoot at deer with a open sighed 6 gun at a 100 yards. If you think your one then grab yourself a scoped 44 mag and hold those crosshairs on a 6 inch target at a 100 yards. Ive shot with some of the best 6 gun shooters in the country at long range and a few linebaugh seminars. We shoot out to a 1000 yards there with revolvers. Aint my first rodeo. If you dont want to pc dont. Nobodys forcing you. I shoot well over a million lube sized bullets in my life and are the first to admit it works. Has worked and always will. Doesnt mean im close minded to something better. But bottom line is if your telling me you can measure the difference in group sizes off hand at a 100 yards standing on your own two feet between a gun that shoots a 1/2 better or worse at 25 the smoke isnt just coming out of your barrel. Add to that like i said a couple times. pc doesnt shoot worse. It just can be differnent in some guns. Stays the same in some gets better in some and gets worse with some (with the same loads) Ive yet to see a gun that with a tiny bit of fine tuning of a load still shot worse. But that said i havent seen to many super blackhawks shooting bench rest competition or being used as 100 yard off hand deer guns. At least not by anyone that cares about cleanly taking game.

[Lloyd Smale]

If it was as good or better you would be seeing it on the line at matches(you don't) and they record and list everything they do, I do PC and have even shot matches with it, sometimes it's almost as good, never better, most of the times it works good to make a bullet fit better when it's a bit undersized. For hunting and plinking I think it's great and I still use it for that

Bill

reason you dont see alot of it at matches is its still relatively new and 90 percent of the guys i shot pistol comp with bought bullets and a very high percentage of them even bought factory ammo. I shot 3 leagues for about 10 years locally here and out of the probably 200 people that shot in them i knew of only one other guy that casted his own bullets. I can count on my fingers and toes the total of them that even shot a cast bullet. Look at the real pros in handgun comp. they dont waste there time handloading or casting. they shoot. Most of them get factory ammo for free. Bottom line is its because the reality is its easier for a handloader to find the best possible accuracy with a handgun using a jacketed bullet. Its what we all do. Chase jacked bullet performance for alot less money. Whens the last time you saw a high power rifle shooter or a bench rest rifle shooter using a cast bullet of any kind? Like i said i cast to shoot. I shoot alot so i have to cast. If i was a millionaire id buy my ammo or have someone else make it and then free up time to do what i love and thats shoot!

[Lloyd Smale]

You are doing something wrong if you have messy lube gumming up everything.

Tim

yup and are your measuring your ammo buy the coffee can full not by a 50 round box a week. ever wear out a sizing die tim. Ive wore out 3 in my life. Ever have to have a progressive press rebuilt? Ever have to rebuild your star?? I can walk into a loading room and about tell how much someone shoots. I see 10 year old 550 dillons that look like new and are wiped down after each use. star sizers that look like they just came out of the box. Reloading rooms that about look like a hosptial. Aint that way at my house. Ive got one heck of a loading room but you walk into it and you will see that everything is USED AND USED ALOT! You usually will find some spilled powder on the bench and floor spent primers on the floor and bench. Lube dripping out of my star. My presses look like 10 year old used equiptment. Why because i crank out ALOT of ammo and id rather spend my time shooting then polishing loading equiptment. Look in my drawers and youll see about every spare part for each press in the house. Why? Because they not only get dirty but they wear out if you actually use them. Im out of this one now. You do it your way and ill do it mine.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Shooting only about 200 rounds a month the extra time the powder coating takes is a non issue. Having loads dialed in on several handguns now I may try some tumble lube again.

[charlie b]

The bullets were lee 309-150-F. Far as I know that's not considered a bore riding bullet. I was sent the mould that the bullets in question came from, and lubed with grease they load and shoot fine.

Best I've gotten with that rifle (winchester 94) was round 1.5 inches at 70 yards.

I don't have much interest in small groups though. 1.5 at 100 out of a scoped bolt action rifle comes easy enough and that's all I strive for. Most of the time my shooting isn't from the bench though.

Yes, the Lee is a bore riding bullet. I've shot many out of my .308. The nose section fits into the rifled portion of the barrel. The reason they shoot well greased is the nose is designed to fit the bore as it drops from the mold. When powder coated it is too big. The only way to 'fix' that is to use a nose sizer such as the ones that NOE produces.

[white eagle]

You are doing something wrong if you have messy lube gumming up everything.

Tim

wait and see

[dtknowles]

wait and see

I am past that. I did have that problem and now I know how to do it right. When I lubesize I only get lube in the grooves, not on the bases or noses. With cases properly expanded and flared the lube does not migrate out of the case. Every once in a while I crank the lube screw without holding pressure down on the bullet and I get lube under the bullet. That is a brain fart to be avoided but when it happens I clean up the bullet and size die so there is no excess lube to get spread around. I also set the stop on the sizer so I don't push the bullet down far enough to get lube forward of the lube grooves. Letting lube get into the crimp groove will make a mess.

Tim

[Larry Gibson]

^^^^^ what I do also. No muss, no fuss.

[dtknowles]

just a small differnce in trigger pull or the tiniest of differnce is sight pictue will throw you off much more then that at a 100yards. What makes you better at a 100 yards is actually standing on your feet and shooting at a 100 yards. Id dare say ive done at least as much long range handgunning then you and im talking way out past a 100 yards. Add to that there probably isnt a man here that is good enough (including myself) to ethicaly shoot at deer with a open sighed 6 gun at a 100 yards. If you think your one then grab yourself a scoped 44 mag and hold those crosshairs on a 6 inch target at a 100 yards. Ive shot with some of the best 6 gun shooters in the country at long range and a few linebaugh seminars. We shoot out to a 1000 yards there with revolvers. Aint my first rodeo. If you dont want to pc dont. Nobodys forcing you. I shoot well over a million lube sized bullets in my life and are the first to admit it works. Has worked and always will. Doesnt mean im close minded to something better. But bottom line is if your telling me you can measure the difference in group sizes off hand at a 100 yards standing on your own two feet between a gun that shoots a 1/2 better or worse at 25 the smoke isnt just coming out of your barrel. Add to that like i said a couple times. pc doesnt shoot worse. It just can be differnent in some guns. Stays the same in some gets better in some and gets worse with some (with the same loads) Ive yet to see a gun that with a tiny bit of fine tuning of a load still shot worse. But that said i havent seen to many super blackhawks shooting bench rest competition or being used as 100 yard off hand deer guns. At least not by anyone that cares about cleanly taking game.

Regarding:

"just a small differnce in trigger pull or the tiniest of differnce is sight pictue will throw you off much more then that at a 100yards."

Yeah, and it will cause you to miss the target. All the variables add up, you have to minimize all of them, accurate ammo is important. You forgot about consistent grip strength and position or follow through. I don't doubt that you have done more long range handgun shooting. I have not tried past 100 yards. I did shoot small bore hunter's pistol comps back in 80's/90's but the rams were at 100 yards.

Also regarding:

"Add to that there probably isnt a man here that is good enough (including myself) to ethicaly shoot at deer with a open sighed 6 gun at a 100 yards."

I have not hunted for more than 15 years but I think I could ethically shoot a deer with my revolver out to 50 yards. I was shooting at 100 yards for the challenge not practice for hunting. If I was deer hunting I expect that I would be using a rifle and probably jacketed bullets. I have never deer hunted with a handgun.

This is an interesting idea.

"But bottom line is if your telling me you can measure the difference in group sizes off hand at a 100 yards standing on your own two feet between a gun that shoots a 1/2 better or worse at 25 the smoke isn't just coming out of your barrel."

It would take a lot of shooting to prove or disprove that. Just the work of shooting the groups at 25 yards to set the stage with two different loads one of which is 1/2 an inch better than the other. I have a whole lot of handguns that I would not bother trying to shoot at targets at 100 yards, accuracy matters and two moa (1/2 inch at 25 yards) is not trivial.

You seem quite passionate about PC and this discussion. I have said PC is good, were you listening.

Tim

[popper]

reason you dont see alot of it at matches - in the past, coated were not allowed by rule. If PC will do MOA on steel @ 200, 2400 fps (308W 165gr) I figure it's good enough and NO first shot flyer. I started tumble LLA & progressed to PC. For reliability, PC wins. Solution for most is the proper mould nose design. Oh, I don't have to 'cook' a bunch of wax/oil/grease to make lube.

[Lloyd Smale]

Regarding:



I have not tried past 100 yards. I did shoot small bore hunter's pistol comps back in 80's/90's but the rams were at 100 yards.



I have not hunted for more than 15 years

It would take a lot of shooting to prove or disprove that
Tim

yes it does take ALOT of shooting. The rest of it? Well i rest my case.

[David2011]

Get behind your DILLON XL650 and load up 1000 rounds.

Look at your left paw after handling all that lead. stained with lead.

Wash your hands and load up 1000 coated bullets, your hands are still clean



Not only are your hands clean at the end of a session but if shooting in matches the gun stays clean even after a few hundred rounds in a big match. PC boolits run as clean as j-words and several have reported increased velocities without changing the powder charge. When power factors are tested that’s a big deal.


reason you dont see alot of it at matches is its still relatively new and 90 percent of the guys i shot pistol comp with bought bullets and a very high percentage of them even bought factory ammo. I shot 3 leagues for about 10 years locally here and out of the probably 200 people that shot in them i knew of only one other guy that casted his own bullets. I can count on my fingers and toes the total of them that even shot a cast bullet. Look at the real pros in handgun comp. they dont waste there time handloading or casting. they shoot. Most of them get factory ammo for free. Bottom line is its because the reality is its easier for a handloader to find the best possible accuracy with a handgun using a jacketed bullet. Its what we all do. Chase jacked bullet performance for alot less money. Whens the last time you saw a high power rifle shooter or a bench rest rifle shooter using a cast bullet of any kind? Like i said i cast to shoot. I shoot alot so i have to cast. If i was a millionaire id buy my ammo or have someone else make it and then free up time to do what i love and thats shoot!

I shot some Cowboy matches at my last range and most of the shooters used powder coated boolits. Lead boolits were mandatory. I was the only boolit caster. Everyone else used commercially cast and PCed boolits.

[Forrest r]

I have done several extensive tests, here's one;

Lee 452-230-TC with 4 different PCs vs BAC lubed bullet

Several weeks ago a member offered to send some of his PC’d Lee 452-230-TC cast of COWW + 2% tin to compare, in a side by side test, any difference in velocity, pressure and accuracy they might have against my own like Lee bullets. Sounded like a good test so I took him up on the offer. In due course, after several PMs wherein we cogitated the parameters of the test, a box of bullets arrives. I found, just as he promised, there were 4 batches PC’d with 3 different kinds of PC (one batch had a double coat applied) sized .452. I would load those with my standard 45 ACP load to test against my own TC bullets lubed with BAC.

There were also 4 batches of the same PC’d bullets unsized. I would size those .454 and load over a tested 45 Colt load which I use in my SAAs and M73 Carbine.

All test rounds were loaded on a Dillon SDB press as that’s how I would use them. The powder for both the 45 ACP and 45 Colt is Bullseye. The powder thrower on the SDB was carefully adjusted with charges weighed on an Ohaus 10-0-5 scale. I loaded 5 gr Bullseye in the 45 ACP and 7 gr Bullseye in the 45 Colt. The bullets weighed 230 – 233 gr including my fully dressed lubed bullet.

I used the following firearms in the test;
Uberti M73 Carbine, 45 Colt
M98 Rhineland conversion, 45 ACP
TC Contender barrel, 45 ACP
TC Contender, 45 Colt
S&W M1917/25, 45 ACP
Colt Series 70 w/Ed Brown Match barrel, 45 ACP
Uberti “Evil Roy” SAA, 45 Colt

272085

The cartridges were loaded with my standard loads on the SDB with Dillon SDB 45 ACP dies. A taper crimp was used to straighten out the case mouth flair. The 45 Colt cases were sized in a RCBS steel dies then lube cleaned off. They were loaded on the SDB with the Dillon sizer removed. A slight role crimp was applied to case mouth crimping into the forward edge of the front drive band just behind the start of the ogive.


272090

The loads are as follows;

45 ACP:
Lee 452-230-TC cast of COWW + 2% tin
Bullseye powder at 5.0 gr
A WLP primer
Remington R-P cases
OAL; 1.199”


45 Colt;
Lee 452-230-TC cast of COWWs + 2% tin
Bullseye powder at 7.0 gr
A WLP primer
Winchester W-W case
OAL; 1.588”


Pressure testing was done with the TC Contender barrels via an Oehler M43 PBL. The velocities listed for the Contender tests are muzzle velocities. Accuracy and functional velocities (screen center was 15’ from the muzzle) were done with an Oehler 35P. The handguns accuracy (group size) was done with the target at 25 yards. The 2 rifles were tested with the target at 50 yards. A two handed hold was used on the handguns with hands braced on sandbags. The rifles were shot with the fore hand resting on sandbag with elbows on bench.

All tests were 10 shot test strings (both for pressure and accuracy/velocity testing). The barrels were cleaned between tests and 2 foulers fired prior to record testing.

I completed the rather extensive test (350 rounds “for record” + foulers) of the PC'd bullets in both the 45 Colt and 45 ACP cartridges. Four different firearms (Contender for pressure, Colt M1911, S&W M1917/25, and M98 Rhineland rifle) were used for the 45 ACP tests. Three different firearms were used for the 45 Colt (Contender for psi, Uberti SAA "Evil Roy" and Uberti M73 Carbine) tests.

In this test I found only one of the PC'd 452-230-TC bullets that performed as well accuracy wise as my own with a naked BAC lubed bullet. That PC coating was the Cardinal Gloss Black. None of the other PC’d bullets were found to be more accurate out of any of the Those other PC’d bullets would start out, in several of the firearms giving excellent accuracy but around rounds 6 – 8 the fliers would start. In a couple cases it appeared so bad I began questioning my shooting ability. However, when I shot the Cardinal Gloss Black PC’d bullets and the naked BAC lubed bullets accuracy was as it should have been.

When cleaning I found fouling (PC buildup and leading) to be a problem with two of the PC coatings (both the Sherman Williams coatings and the Cardinal Pearlescent Steel Gray) in several of the firearms, particularly the 6 1/2" barreled M1917/25 and both rifles. The fouling was both from a heavy build up of the PC in the bore and several instances, leading also. Here is some of the leading and PC buildup removed with a Lewis Lead remover after one test string. The leading removed in this picture when the Cardinal Pearlescent Steel grey was shot in the S&W M1917/25.

272086

The Sherman Williams, both 1 and 2 coats, left PC deposits in all the barrels after 6 - 8 rounds with flyers then occurring. They also left leading in the S&W M1917/25 in 45 ACP and Uberti SAA in 45 Colt. The PC fouling could be cleaned out easily with a bronze bore brush and Hoppe's #9. The leading required a Lewis Lead Remover to remove as pictured above. This picture shows the PC residue buildup when the Sherman Williams PC was used, particularly the 2 coated bullets.

272091

As to reducing pressure I found only one of the PC'd bullets demonstrated a measurable (outside of lot to lot variation probable) less psi that the lubed bullet in the 45 Colt but that PC’d bullet gave the highest psi in the 45 ACP, higher than the naked BAC lubed bullet.

Additionally I found one of the PCs (Cardinal Gloss Black) to leave a residue on the firearms (revolvers) worse than regular lube does. There also was considerable residue blown back on the case with the 45 Colt load. Other than that the Cardinal Gloss Black 1 coat worked well in all the firearms and rivaled the naked BAC lubed bullets for accuracy. It gave slightly less psi and slightly less velocity in all the firearms too. However, as mentioned, there was a considerable blackish deposit left in the chambers, on the cylinders of the revolvers and around the carrier of the M73. That did not seem to affect the accuracy and no fouling occurred in any bores. It cleaned off the firearms as readily as the residue from naked BAC lubed bullets.

The Sherman Williams, both 1 and 2 coats, left PC deposits in all the barrels after 6 - 8 rounds with flyers then occurring. They also left leading in the S&W M1917/25 in 45 ACP and Uberti SAA in 45 Colt. The PC fouling could be cleaned out easily with a bronze bore brush and Hoppe's #9. The leading required a Lewis Lead Remover to remove. There will be a couple pictures of that in the article.

The cardinal Pearlescent Steel Gray performed well in all the handguns both ACP and Colt but was pretty inaccurate in both rifles.

I’m not going to draw any conclusions; I’ll let each of you do that by scrutinizing the data. Here are the correlated data for each cartridge:

45 ACP/452-230-TC/5 gr Bullseye/WLP/R-P Case
Sherman Williams
Metallic Silver 1 Coat
Firearm…………… Grp @ 25 yd……..Velocity……SD……..ES……psiM43)…..SD……ES……..
TC Contender………3.9”..(8 in 2.8”)……1019 fps….11 fps…35 fps…..20,200…….900…...3,300……
S&W M1917/25…….4”…(8 in 3”)……….890 fps….15 fps…54 fps…....
Colt Gvm’t M1911….5.5”…………………919 fps…..12 fps…42 fps……
M98 Rifle..(50 yd).....3.2”..(7 in 1.1”)…….1046 fps….17 fps….58 fps…..

Sherman Williams
Metallic Silver 2 Coats
Firearm…………… Grp @ 25 yd…..Velocity…….SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES……..
TC Contender………4.6”……………..1006 fps……19 fps…58 fps……19,400…...1,200….3,400…
S&W M1917/25……5.4”..(9 in 4”)…….903 fps……14 fps…41 fps
Colt Gvm’t M1911…6.5”………………919 fps…….19 fps…54 fps
M98 Rifle…(50 yd)…5.25”……………1044 fps……10 fps…33 fps

Cardinal Pearlescent
Steel Gray 1 Coat
Firearm…………… Grp @ 25 yd…..Velocity….…SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES……..
TC Contender………4.4”……………..1002 fps……14 fps…53 fps……19,900……1,500…4,000
S&W M1917/25…….4.9”………………895 fps...…17 fps…54 fps
Colt Gvm’t M1911….5”………………...917 fps…...10 fps…35 fps
M98 Rifle..(50 yd)…5.2”………………1038 fps…...13 fps…48 fps

Cardinal Gloss
Black 1 Coat
Firearm…………… Grp @ 25 yd……Velocity……SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES……..
TC Contender………2.2”………………996 fps……16 fps…..61 fps……18,700……1,200….4,100
S&W M1917/25……2.2”………………886 fps……16 fps…..43 fps
Colt Gvm’t M1911…3”…………………917 fps……9 fps…...31 fps
M98 Rifle…(50 yd)..3.6”…(8 in 1.4”)…1035 fps…...14 fps….43 fps

Naked Cast
BAC Lube
Firearm…………… Grp @ 25 yd….Velocity…..…SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES……..
TC Contender………2.1”……………..1004 fps……12 fps….40 fps…..18,900…….900……2,900
S&W M1917/25……2.25”…………… 917 fps……..9 fps…..30 fps
Colt Gvm’t M1911…2.75”…………….922 fps…….12 fps….37 fps
M98 Rifle…(50 yd)…2.2”……………1060 fps…….15 fps….45 fps

45 Colt/452-230-TC/7 gr Bullseye/WLP/W-W case
Sherman Williams
Metallic Silver 1 Coat
Firearm………………. Grp @ 25 yd….Velocity………SD…….ES……psiM43)…..SD……ES
TC Contender………….2.8”……………..1080 fps……10 fps….34 fps…..14,800……800……2,900
Uberti Evil Roy SAA…..3.6”……………..896 fps……..12 fps….34 fps..
Uberti M73 Carbine..(50 yd)..3.6”………...1153 fps……12 fps…41 fps

Sherman Williams
Metallic Silver 2 Coats
Firearm………………. Grp @ 25 yd….Velocity……..SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES
TC Contender…………..3.1”……………1070 fps…….12 fps….39 fps…..15,700……500……1,700
Uberti Evil Roy SAA…..3.6”…………….900 fps……...8 fps…...24 fps
Uberti M73 Carbine..(50 yd)….2.8”..……1142 fps…….8 fps……27 fps

Cardinal Pearlescent
Steel Gray 1 Coat
Firearm………………. Grp @ 25 yd….Velocity………SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES
TC Contender………….3.9”…………….1070 fps……..7 fps….20 fps……16,000……600……1,700
Uberti Evil Roy SAA…..5”……………….899 fps……..18 fps…59 fps
Uberti M73 Carbine.;(50 yd)..4.2………...1135 fps………5 fps…17 fps

Cardinal Gloss
Black 1 Coat
Firearm………………. Grp @ 25 yd…..Velocity…..…SD…….ES………psiM43)…..SD……ES
TC Contender…………..1.8”……………1066 fps…….11 fps….31 fps……15,900…..500……1,700
Uberti Evil Roy SAA…...2”………………896 fps……..10 fps….31 fps
Uberti M73 Carbine..(50 yd)..2.5”………..1134 fps……13 fps…..49 fps

Naked Cast
BAC Lube
Firearm………………. Grp @ 25 yd…..Velocity……SD…….ES……..…psiM43)…..SD……ES
TC Contender…………..1.8”…………….1078 fps….9 fps…….35 fps……16,700……900……2,900
Uberti Evil Roy SAA…..2”………………..902 fps….12 fps……44 fps
Uberti M73 Carbine..(50 yd)..1.7”………..1135 fps…..5 fps…….15 fps


I also have another involving HT coated 225438s in the 223 Rem and the 314299 in the 7.62x54R. I also have posted other similar results from other tests.

As I previously stated so far PC/HT hasn't shown me any improvement to make it worth while to do. Also I'm not trying anyone not to PC/HT their cast bullets. If it works for you then have at it. PC/HT just doesn't work for me at this time. More power to all who strive to make it better, keep at it and who knows.....I might convert......

As soon as you saw you were getting leading you should of stopped. Something was wrong, 1 of the +'s of pc'ing bullets is no leading. Things like under cure, bullet scraping when loading, wider nose from pc coat being scraped off during chambers, etc.

While this post has information that is useful it is also extremely limited and not of any real value when comparing traditionally lubed/sized VS pc/sized bullet.

IMHO there 3 things in that test which makes me sat it wasn't a real test of if there is any advantages of pc'd bullets over traditionally lubed bullets.

The 3 things:
When you get leading with pc'd bullets something is wrong. There's 1000's of posts on this subject and I have yet to see 1 single post saying you're supposed to have leading with pc'd bullets.
You used a +/- 12bhn alloy and loads that were optimum pressure range wise for that alloy/cartridges (16,000psi to 19,000spi) to have the bullets base compress/lube distribute/seal/peak performance.
You only used 1 load in each caliber for all testing.

At the end of the day you used flawed pc'd bullets, an extremely small window pressure wise, used 1 load only for each caliber that was tailor made for your choice of alloy/lube.

[Larry Gibson]

Forrest r

Your own conclusion/opinion is flawed as you make erroneous assumptions and you miss several important facts;

The fouling and leading did not happen in all the firearms, only some of them. Also the fouling and leading were not consistent as some firearms only had PC fouling and some had both PC fouling and a bit of leading.

If you read through this forum and others there are numerous complaints of fouling and or leading problems with PC/HT. Additionally I have ran tests on numerous other PC/HT coated bullets supplied by various individuals of various calibers in various cartridges. Most often, not always, the fouling when it occurs is from the PC/HT. Those test were with handgun and rifle cartridges using PB and GC'd bullets with velocities appropriate for the bullet and cartridge from 800 fps to 2800+ fps.

I "used" the 12 BHN bullets because that is what was sent to me to test. Yes, I used a proven load with each cartridge (the bullets were tested in two cartridges in several different firearms) that were proven loads with the bullet tested. Since you're saying the load was "optimum" I fail to see the point as to how that makes it not a "real test"?

Yes, I used one load for each cartridge. When conducting a scientific test there is/should be only one variable. That variable is the object of the test. That variable was the PC'd bullets. I was not working up a load. Thus the load used in each cartridge was constant. That is the way a scientific test is conducted.

Thus, at the end of the day, The PC'd bullets were not "flawed" as they were cast and PC'd by a respected member of this forum who is really "into" PC and has many posts and threads on the topic here in this forum. There was not "an extremely small window pressure wise" as the loads tested are standard loads or vey close to it used by many in IPSC, IDPA and SASS competition let alone just casual shooting. BTW; in the 45 ACP cartridge 5 gr of Bullseye with a 230 gr bullet, cast or jacketed, has been a standard load since the inception of the cartridge. The 7 gr Bullseye load under a 230 gr load also has been a standard load used by many in days past.

I realize, Forrest, that many really like PC/HT bullets and that is fine with me. As I stated earlier, shoot all of them you want. I just reported the results of an extensive test. Have you conducted such and extensive test? If so please post the results. I and everyone else would like to see the results. I also am hoping PC or something similar really does work out, especially for high velocity rifle loads. But I've just not substantiated any of the claims with PC bullets with one exception; after being PC'd they are "cleaner" to handle. However during the PC process it certainly is far messier than lubing bullets with a lubrasizer. Additionally I never said, nor have I tried to dissuade anyone from PC/HTing cast bullets. This is a forum, a discussion and I've put forth the results of a test is all.

Let me quote myself from the report so you can read that i never said PC/HT sucked or wasn't any good and to not use it;
"I’m not going to draw any conclusions; I’ll let each of you do that by scrutinizing the data. Here are the correlated data for each cartridge:"

"As I previously stated so far PC/HT hasn't shown me any improvement to make it worth while to do. Also I'm not trying anyone not to PC/HT their cast bullets. If it works for you then have at it. PC/HT just doesn't work for me at this time. [B]More power to all who strive to make it better, keep at it and who knows.....I might convert......"

So, again at the end of the day [isn't that cliché a bit over used these days, especially by the MSM commentators?], while I appreciate your criticism and your own conclusion, unless you can come up with actual test results confirming your criticisms and refuting, with actual test results not just your opinion, my test results your opinion is really just a dog that don't hunt........

[Forrest r]

It really doesn't matter to me how anyone coats their bullets, what type of lubes they use, the types of machines they use or the sizing dies, etc. When pc'ing 1st started I read the different posts and thought it might be worth looking into. What sold me was the pictures of the "smash test". I wanted to cast rifle bullets & then pc them and run them up in custom made bump dies reshaping them to mirror the throat/leade/throat of the bbl's chamber. Then do head to head testing with traditionally lubed/sized/bumped vs pc'd/bumped.

Really nothing to do with clean, dirty, fast, slow, storage, round count at range time, smoke, etc.

Alloys have to be on the soft side to do any extreme bumping/re-shaping of the rifle bullets. It's a rather lengthy/time consuming process bumping the bullets. So I decided to do the initial testing with pistol bullets to see if there was any real difference along with how hard can a soft alloy/pc'd bullet be driven accurately.

Ended up choosing a beater S&W 629 to use as a test bed. Wanted a caliber that had a wide range of pressure from starting loads to max loads, the 44mag seemed like a good a choice as any along with I've shot countless 1000's of rounds thru it and had a pretty good idea of what it could do. Along with why not test for a blammo ammo plinking load that would do 1 1/2" or less @ 25yds.

I chose 8/9bhn range scrap for an alloy and cast piles of 7 different bullets to test. All bullets were cast from the same 100# lot of range scrap.

I pc'd the bullets with john deede green, lubed the bullets with ben's red in a .431" lyman 450. THen I took all the bullets and sized them in a lee .430" push thru sizing die.

Grabbed 5 different powders I had laying around (bullseye, clays, trailboss, am-select, unique) and put together ladder test loads with the 7 bullets/5 powders. The loads started in the +/- 15,000psi range and ended in the 25,000+/- range using 1/2gr increments.

The testing was done @ 25yds using 1 firearm, that 629 with a 4x scope using a rest. Only 6 rounds of each load were tested. Not really very scientific but it allowed me to test a wide range of loads to get an idea of how a pc'd bullet would perform.

Started with a clean revolver and shot fouling shots while getting the scope on paper/target. The is that sighting in target with a 8/9bhn +/- 20,000psi load that easily did a 1 1/2" 6-shot group @ 25yds.
https://i.imgur.com/QrPi70y.jpg?1

Shot all the pc test rounds & cleaned the revolver and shot a couple cylinders of fouling rounds and then tested the traditionally lubed/sized bullets. Clays did well with this alloy in the +/- 21,000psi range.
https://i.imgur.com/EFjjcoZ.jpg

At the end of the day using same alloy/bullets/powders/loads/firearm/etc the pc'd bullets produced 13 loads that would do 1 1/2" @ 25yds. The traditionally lubed bullets produce 3.

That's 7 different bullets, 5 different powders, I have no idea how many test loads were actually tested. Powders like clays/traiboss had a small window using 1/2gr jumps with a min/max of 2gr (4 test loads total). Powders like am-select, bullseye & unique has 6/7 different loads. Even if all the powders only had 4 test loads each, that 28 different test loads using 8/9bhn bullets in a 10,000psi pressure window.

13 pc loads VS 3 traditional loads that would do 1 1/2" 6-shot groups @ 25yds.

While not scientific by any means and 1 time testing of a 6-shot group really isn't telling in itself. The 28 test groups (minimum) of each type of lube and the 13 VS 3 is.

Myself I'd rather use a soft alloy and a wide range of pressures testing 28+ loads in 1 firearm rather then test 1 load in 8 firearms.

[onelight]

I shoot a lot of Hi-Tek commercial bullets and there have been several times after shooting that I dry brushed the barrel with a bore brush that I would get red puffs of Hi-Tek from the barrel when brushing so I know I get some buildup in the bore . For how I use these loads it makes 0 difference to me but I do get coating fouling in the bore on occasion.

[Forrest r]

Good info larry, no criticism!!!

Seeing how respected member on this website sent you the pc'd bullets and you trust what they sent. That give credence to operator error and scrapping of the pc to cause sporadic leading. At the end of the day the only 2 ways I'm aware of to get leading from a pc'd bullet is to have made errors in the pc'ing process or scrapping the pc coating off in places.

Borderline under cure. The nose of the bullet passed the "smash test" and the pc is still intact. The body of the bullet had the pc stripped off by the bbl. There was minor leading in the bbl.
https://i.imgur.com/Swqedh0.jpg

Anyway, matters not to me. If you feel that the pc'd bullets that leaded your bbl's had no affect/impact on your testing for accuracy. This speaks volumes of your results.

[Larry Gibson]

Forrest

You should really quit making assumptions. I "trust but verify" what members here send me to test. Particularly if it is loaded ammunition, I do pull a couple rounds apart to double check the load as we all can make mistakes. As to alloy and BHN and the kind of PC/HT or lube or whatever, I take the members of this forum at their word. Some things like BHN I can double check but others I can't so I take the members of this forum at their word and simply test what they send as close to as requested as I can. Unless something is unsafe I test what is sent and report the results....good, bad or indifferent.

"I pc'd the bullets with john deede green, lubed the bullets with ben's red in a .431" lyman 450. THen I took all the bullets and sized them in a lee .430" push thru sizing die."

You lubed the bullets? If that is correct and you lubed the PC'd bullets at all then I understand why you get no PC fouling.......I thought one of the benefits of PC was not lubing? I've shot lots of lubed PC bullets without any PC fouling or leading and very good accuracy also.

You say you PC with "john deede green" but the PC'd bullets shown are red? Is "green" really red?

Also, you should re-read my test results. The "leading" occurred only in 2 of the test firearms, one of each cartridge then only with a certain type PC. The bullets were not "scraped" during the loading process. The PC "fouling" was present in several but not all as previously stated a couple times.

My test consisted of a 12 shot test (2 foulers then 10 for group) not 3 or 6 shot groups.

Additionally, I never said or insinuated "that I "feel that the pc'd bullets that leaded your bbl's had no affect/impact on your testing for accuracy" in that test. What i have said is PC/HT cast bullets have not shown me any of the claimed improvement in accuracy. Also it does not appear, from the two target pictures [apparently with the PC cast bullet and a traditional sized and lubed cast bullet] you posted above that your PC'd cast bullets improve upon accuracy for you either. Leading of the barrel (only 2 of the barrels in this extensive test with only one kind of PC) does adversely affect accuracy as did the build up of the PC fouling in some of the test firearms.

Also you failed, obviously, to note or comprehend where I stated in the test report; "the Cardinal Gloss Black 1 coat worked well in all the firearms and rivaled the naked BAC lubed bullets for accuracy. It gave slightly less psi and slightly less velocity in all the firearms too." There were 4 different PCs tested in that test. That one worked very well. At the end I stated I would not draw any conclusions but left that up to the readers. I suggest you re-read the test setting aside your disdain and paying attention to what I actually said and what the test data actually reveals. I've stated elsewhere, perhaps in this thread also, that I don't PC because i do not find it quicker or less messy either when PCing or loading. I do not find, or haven't found yet, PC bullets gives any advantage in accuracy, velocity or lesser psi. I have found some PC/HT'd bullets that do as well in some applications but, so far, have found no incentive to switch. And once again, if you like shooting PC/HT cast bullets and they work for you then have it as you have my full support.

You're not the first to dislike the results of some tests. Mostly the dislike comes simply because what is posted is not read or comprehended but sometimes a personal bent can cloud ones interpretation. Seemingly personal attack comments like "This speaks volumes of your results" point out the "personal bent". If you don't like the results of my tests then you certainly don't have to. But like I said, your dog don't hunt with your arguments because you're arguing against yourself......

[JM7.7x58]

Bullet sizing is another rabbit hole that divides these two methods. Many would recommend that you size a lubed bullets .002” over your slugged size, or even larger.

Many have found that PC exhibits it’s best accuracy when bullets are sized between .001” to just .0005” over the slugged size. The rational is that by minimizing the damage to the PC jacket as it enters the throat, it will reduce the possibility of leading associated with jacket damage, and improve consistent flyer free accuracy.

Different systems require different solutions. You would never size muzzle loader bullets the same way you size breech loaded cartridge bullets. Yet both systems can achieve fine accuracy.

PC just isn’t going to be as accurate as a finely tuned lube based load(lube flyers and fouling shots excluded). But for many it’s benefits out weight the lack of accuracy. It is unaffected by temperature, doesn’t require fouling shots, and you don’t get lube flyers. It is less accurate, but more consistent.

And, for the new caster getting started, PC is much cheaper than a lubrisizer with all their different dies and top punches. A thrift store toaster oven, a grocery store oven thermometer, and a homemade wire basket are all you really need. The material costs of lube vs powder is insignificant. The cost benefit to the new caster has only gotten better now that we have both the Lee Breech Lock modular sizing system and the NOE modular sizing system available to the new caster.

JM

[Mal Paso]

What are "lube flyers"? A search turns up oil change ads.

I did find "cold barrel flyers" but I have not experienced that. First shot is often a bullseye. Makes follow up shots a *****. LOL

[derek45]

https://i.imgur.com/eWOqUxF.jpg

[dtknowles]

What are "lube flyers"? A search turns up oil change ads.

I did find "cold barrel flyers" but I have not experienced that. First shot is often a bullseye. Makes follow up shots a *****. LOL

Lube flyers are the result of lube fouling. A build up of excess lube in the bore that is purged with a shot that does not follow the group. Sort of the opposite of the fouling shot. Bore needs to be fouled with lube but not too much. It is either caused by bullets with too many, too large lubed grooves or by too fast a powder that does not keep the pressure up all the way to the muzzle to blow out the excess lube.

Lube flyers are not wildly inaccurate but can turn a sub moa group into moa and a half or so.

Tim

[JM7.7x58]

A lube flyer comes from too much lube. It is sometimes called a lube purge. Sometimes you will notice that casters will refer to only filling one lube groove. They do this in an effort to improve accuracy by reducing the effects of over lubed bullets, that can produce lube flyers.

Here is a good thread where it is explained by some fine gentlemen over at the cast bullet association. There is little consensus of the exact mechanism that causes the flyers, only that when lube is reduced that often groups tighten up.

https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/thread/3494-lube-purge/

JM

[dtknowles]

What are "lube flyers"? A search turns up oil change ads.

I did find "cold barrel flyers" but I have not experienced that. First shot is often a bullseye. Makes follow up shots a *****. LOL

Cold barrel flyers are not really flyers they are just where a cold barrel will shoot. Many barrels will change their POA as they warm up. Freshly cleaned and oiled barrels with also shoot to a different POA. For big game hunters this first shot is very important and when sighting in a big game rifle I suggest you not clean it after sighting it in and fine tune adjust the sights with cold barrel shots. Some big game hunting rifles have thin barrels and are bedded with forearm pressure. These are most likely to change their POA as the barrel warms up.

Tim

[Elpatoloco]

I didn't get it either. Until I did it. My 2 sons who are now grown both reload. I can send them slugs ready to load without lube worries.

[bigboredad]

Volume shooters and that usually means frequent shooters will see the biggest rewards for their effort. Mixing and testing alloys is no longer necessary because the coating makes the bullet act like its jacketed. You don't get your dies hummed up from traditional lubes because the coating acts like a jacketed bullets. You and your guns stay a lot cleaner because you aren't burning the bullet because the coating acts like a jacketed bullet. Barrels that have been troublesome and always lead up no matter what you try and all barrels in general will be cleaner because the coating acts like a jacketed bullet.

The one and only downside for me is coating your bullets by yourself is time consuming and with my star I was always amazed how fast and easy living is. I also miss the smell of a lubes bullet being shot in rapid fire blazing away at bowling pins or a plate rack.

Now I have more time than money and don't shoot very much. The most I'll shoot in a week is around 1200 and since I can't afford jacketed bullets and hate plated bullets and I enjoy casting and making all the cool colors it works for me. Thank God there is only 1 of me so I'm highly sure your mileage will vary. My 1 suggestion would be perhaps you should purchase a sample and give them a try. Or if you are happy and enjoy doing it your way CARRY ON but just make sure to CARRY On and above all else have FUN

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

[44Blam]

Bullet sizing is another rabbit hole that divides these two methods. Many would recommend that you size a lubed bullets .002” over your slugged size, or even larger.

Many have found that PC exhibits it’s best accuracy when bullets are sized between .001” to just .0005” over the slugged size. The rational is that by minimizing the damage to the PC jacket as it enters the throat, it will reduce the possibility of leading associated with jacket damage, and improve consistent flyer free accuracy.

Different systems require different solutions. You would never size muzzle loader bullets the same way you size breech loaded cartridge bullets. Yet both systems can achieve fine accuracy.

PC just isn’t going to be as accurate as a finely tuned lube based load(lube flyers and fouling shots excluded). But for many it’s benefits out weight the lack of accuracy. It is unaffected by temperature, doesn’t require fouling shots, and you don’t get lube flyers. It is less accurate, but more consistent.

And, for the new caster getting started, PC is much cheaper than a lubrisizer with all their different dies and top punches. A thrift store toaster oven, a grocery store oven thermometer, and a homemade wire basket are all you really need. The material costs of lube vs powder is insignificant. The cost benefit to the new caster has only gotten better now that we have both the Lee Breech Lock modular sizing system and the NOE modular sizing system available to the new caster.

JM

I disagree that a PC boolit can't be as finely tuned as a lubed boolit.
I've been able to hit 2' targets at 600 yards consistently with my 1895 (staff sight) and it's a 350 grain NOE RD shape that was GC'd and PC'd. You cannot do that if your system is not accurate to begin with.

[David2011]

Bigboredad, you hit a nerve. I LOVE the smell of honey in RandyRat’s lubes. I don’t get that when I PC. Fortunately, I still use conventional lube on my bigger bore low volume handgun boolits.

[tazman]

I like loading with Hitek coated boolits.......provided someone else does the coating. I don't like the coating process.

[dtknowles]

I disagree that a PC boolit can't be as finely tuned as a lubed boolit.
I've been able to hit 2' targets at 600 yards consistently with my 1895 (staff sight) and it's a 350 grain NOE RD shape that was GC'd and PC'd. You cannot do that if your system is not accurate to begin with.

A two foot target at 600 yards is 4 MOA.

Tim

[BrutalAB]

For me:
Less variables for load development. (Which lube to use, how many bands to fill with lube)

Don't have to buy a lubesizer/top punches or deal with that pan lubing nonsense that looks like it would be way more time consuming than powdercoating. (Do lube sizers have to be cleaned, especially when changing lubes from pistol to rifle? )

Coated boolits never oxidize

Different colors for different alloys (pure lead for hunting gets the sparkle treatment)
Plus they just look good to me.

Its not lee liquid alox.


I have never dealt with any boolit lube (might have used one box of commercial cast around 2013/14 but honestly dont fully remember it)


A buddy has told me that he much prefers my coated boolits over lubed because of extra smoke during shooting lubed. Cant verify if this is significant or not, but dont really care to find out.

If i had started out a few years earlier and had a lubesizer and experience with lube, i might have a different opinion. Especially since the first two would not affect me (as much)

Paper patching does itch my curiosity, but lube just doesnt for some reason.

[Petander]

Oh boy.

I like to cast bullets, it's a hobby on its own to me.

Coatings are the same, I cast and experiment with coatings to make the best, most accurate ammo possible,not to save money.

Love how coated bullets handle. I cast and store thousands every week, shoot less than I cast.

[Dapaki]

What’s the big deal? I cast the bullets, handle them one time through a lubrisizer then load them . No separate sizing operation , no shake and bake, no concern about size variation, No concern about brand of paint, just a very time efficient loading operation. Sure they look pretty but so what. The traditional lubed/ sized bullets shoot great and do not lead. Why change? I have had leading problems with many of the commercial Handgun high tech bullets if velocity is high but that may be too hard bullets with a bevel base. What am I missing? Seems like a waste of time with the extra steps for pretty bullets. Do they group better? Or is it just something different for those with much free time.😀 I am not a snowflake so you can flame me. Its all in good fun but I would like to know.

Dogdoc

A couple of items to note: The OP really does not want to know why many of us PC nor does he want to understand anything new or change as better options come to us. Second, Mess is mess. Both lube and PC have mess, nobody on earth can tell me different, I use both and I have rags with lube and rags with PC, so what?

As mentioned earlier, I use both depending on the boolit and the gun. I LLA, I use a Star Lubesizer, I shake and bake and even PC and stand those soldiers up! I even have .22 LR boolits LLA as well as some PC for the same gun and powder!

There is no "BETTER" or "BEST", it all depends on your needs, your expectations and your willingness to seek out something new.

Do PC shoot better than lubed? Depends. My .22 LR shoot hole in hole with LLA. PC is minute of cat head. .223 with LLA is 3 MOA while PC comes in at 1 MOA. Same casting, powder and primer!

My AR-350 Legend does the same 1.5 MOA with PC, LLA, Star or J-words. No.... I cannot explain it, they just all hit the same grouping.

Lube what you want, LLA or PC what you want, I'll keep coating what I like, sissy little fairy colored ***** pills make me smile as I send them down range.

Keep your powder dry....

[Alferd Packer]

I am still successfully casting, lubing while sizing and shooting after sixty years.
Still having too much fun to change.
Can't see any advantage gained except to spend time that I could be using to shoot and also runs the cost up.

[Alferd Packer]

I am still successfully casting, lubing while sizing and shooting after sixty years.
Still having too much fun to change.
Can't see any advantage gained except to spend time that I could be using to shoot and also runs the cost up.

[Lloyd Smale]

I disagree that a PC boolit can't be as finely tuned as a lubed boolit.
I've been able to hit 2' targets at 600 yards consistently with my 1895 (staff sight) and it's a 350 grain NOE RD shape that was GC'd and PC'd. You cannot do that if your system is not accurate to begin with.

the doubters can come over and watch me shoot 1inch to 1 1/8 5 shot groups with a 16 inch ar15 in 9mm. Thats at a 100 yards! Thats as good as most 556 guns will shoot with jacketed. I use a group buy 145 flat nose gas check, pc coated, cast out of 18bhn and aa2. Gun is a cmmg 9mm. that was with a scope mounted on it. It now has a red dot and has no problem hitting 4 inch steel targets at a 100 yards. My 16 inch blackout will do near the same at a 100 yards with the 130 rcbs spitzer gas check with either 20 grains of 110 or 16 grains of wc820. I doubt your going to beat them with lube sized bullets. The 9 shoots better with that bullet then it does with white box ww ball which is only jacketed bullet ive tried in it because i wont waste money on jacketed 9s. the bo does a tad better. Just under an inch with barnes 110s. Would a lube sized bullet do better in that gun? WHO CARES. Even a bolt gun that will shoot 1-1/4 groups at a 100 yards will kill deer (or man) out to 300 yards. By the way those arent freak groups. When i claim a 100 yard group size its the average or 3 5 shot groups. That 9mm ar has amazed about everyone that shoots it. Just shows you what a cast bullet can do in a GOOD gun and shows me that pc is every bit as accurate as lube sized bullets and is no more finiky to load for. Ill add one more thing. that 9mm ar15 has probably 10k of coated and lube sized bullets through it and has never had a brush in the barrel. Went to clean it a couple times and looked down it and it was as shinny as a babies but. I agree with 44blam if your having problems with pc in your gun youd probably have problems with lube sized bullets to. A turd is a turd.

[Lloyd Smale]

I am still successfully casting, lubing while sizing and shooting after sixty years.
Still having too much fun to change.
Can't see any advantage gained except to spend time that I could be using to shoot and also runs the cost up.

it might run the cost up if your already set up. But when star or lyman sizing dies cost more then a lee sizing die and you have to sink 300 bucks into a a star or half that into a lyman (i havent looked at there prices in 20 years because i wouldnt even consider one) then add the cost of lube, harder lead to keep from leading, possibly gas checks for rifle bullets that you can get away without with pc and it doesnt look cheaper to me. Ill put it this way. If your already set up and strapped for money do what your doing. It works and has worked for MANY years. But if your just starting out its a no brainer. Or if you want to make a large step up in making cast bullets more versatile like making HPs that can be pushed at rifle velocity's out of soft lead, or rifle bullets that can be shot at jacketed velocity's even without a gas check or just hate cleaning filthy guns its a no brainer. I showed before that it really takes no more time if you factor in farting with your star or lyman, adding lube plugging holes in sizing dies and a 1/2 hour to clean your filthy gun after a day shooting only 2 or 300 rounds.

For just price of a crappy lyman lubesizer you can buy a toaster oven and enough pc do a 100k of bullets. I can actually see the "im doing it now and its working fine for me argument" Thats fine and if it works for you great. But what you wont do is convince someone that knows better that it is in any way a better system. It has NO advantage over pc. I came late to it and argued your side till i tried it. Doesnt take a baseball bat over the head to show a guy like me that loads to shoot, not because its fun that an old dog can learn new tricks. Id bet my last dollar that if old elmer was still alive and kicking hed be first in line to use it. He was one that revolutionized handgun shooting. He wasnt afraid of new. He invented new.

[murf205]

What’s the big deal? I cast the bullets, handle them one time through a lubrisizer then load them . No separate sizing operation , no shake and bake, no concern about size variation, No concern about brand of paint, just a very time efficient loading operation. Sure they look pretty but so what. The traditional lubed/ sized bullets shoot great and do not lead. Why change? I have had leading problems with many of the commercial Handgun high tech bullets if velocity is high but that may be too hard bullets with a bevel base. What am I missing? Seems like a waste of time with the extra steps for pretty bullets. Do they group better? Or is it just something different for those with much free time.😀 I am not a snowflake so you can flame me. Its all in good fun but I would like to know.

Dogdoc

dogdoc, I am not into the "flaming" thing and you are certainly valid in your question, but the reason some casters PC boolits, myself included, is that you can get a softer boolit to a higher velocity without leading- as long as the fit is right. I am referring to handgun velocities, in general although I have a T/C Encore 460 S&W with a 15" barrel that will do 2100 fps with a 290 gr without any leading and that is with the same mix I use for 45 Colt velocities. Now will it cure all ills? No, probably not, and every caster here has there own opinion and that's what makes us such a great forum for information. When you said that you had leading problems with coated handgun boolits, I immediately think that the beveled base is your culprit. Of all the leading problems I have ever had, the boolit had a beveled base. Now I am aware that a lot of people have had great success with beveled bases, but I am not one of them. Is coating a waste of time? Well it's not watching soap operas, which is the ultimate wast of time but at least I did learn something from PC'ing and that made the experience worth it to me.

[SweetMk]

dogdoc, I am not into the "flaming" thing and you are certainly valid in your question,

Well, I figured I would try "FLAMING", since no one else has,,,

Hand taped, of course,,,

https://i.imgur.com/C3lM1rn.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xcGvFwQ.jpg

:-P

This is all that I know on the subject,,,,,,,,,,[smilie=p:


:holysheep :mrgreen:

[megasupermagnum]

I figured I should add what I do and do not like about both methods. I only started casting about 5 years ago, which coatings were already quite popular at the time. I was in my 20's, which is very much in the "9mm pistol and AR15 rifle age group", although I never had much love for either.

My very first cast bullets I could have done any method. I chose to pan lube. They worked quite well. As time went on, I tried the other methods. I still use tumble lubing, and find it an extremely quick and effective method. I never found alox lube to be sticky, and never had any issues with it. I have yet to have alox lube shoot as good as wax lube though. Going to powder coat, as well as some store bought hitec, I again found accuracy never quite matched a wax lube.

In regards to the actual loading of the bullets, I never saw huge gains with any method. I bulk store wax lube bullets, and never had anything bad happen. I wouldn't try it with a crumby lube like NRA 50-50, but the more malleable lubes store fine. I keep them in relatively smaller containers, maybe quart size, and I pour them in as gently as possible. I suppose you may be able to roughly dump coated bullets in large containers like an ice cream pail with minimal risk to the coating, but you would be damaging the bullets. Alox tumble lube would be just as durable as coated, but again, I am gentle with them. A ding in a bullet base is a ruined bullet. When it comes to getting lube in the seating die, I've have very few issues. Coated bullets I would assume would go an extremely long time, maybe forever with nothing in the die. With tumble lube, I usually get a full run on my progressive with only a couple thousandths change in depth. A full run for me is 1000-2000 rounds loaded at a time. With wax lube, it depends. You could go forever if the noses were clean, but then one with a glob of lube could ruin it. I have minimal lube on noses, and I usually notice a glob. I again can usually get a full run on a progressive without a cleaning. When I say cleaning, I mean I remove the die, take a Q tip, dip it in acetone, and wipe out the seating stem of the lube. It is a 30 second job, and something I consider a non-issue. I am speaking of pistol loading mainly, and do not load rifle rounds in such bulk. Also, the seating stems of rifle dies are hollow, and I have never had lube change them.

I'd like to touch on one subject that people have mentioned, and that is handling lead. Sure, wax lubed bullets will leave a minor smudge on two fingers after a decent loading session. Beyond that, your lead exposer is not significantly reduced with coated bullets. It would be dangerous to think you can relax your precautions. You are still just as exposed when casting those bullets, and there is plenty of unseen lead dust on those even when coated. The most important thing to remember is that the #1 source of dangerous lead exposure to shooters is from primers. Both during shooting, and reloading, the primer dust is more dangerous than the bullet. Dry tumbling brass can be especially bad. I hate to think of all the time I was tumbling brass in my bedroom. Just don't eat when loading, wash your hands when done, you will be safe no matter how the bullets are prepared.

Back to shooting, I do not shoot indoors, or competitions. I did not even notice any smoke when shooting until I read about all the problems on the internet. I then noticed that yes, there is some smoke with wax lube, more with alox tumble lube. I did still notice smoke with powder coat and hitek, but I can also see some with jacketed bullets too. I don't notice any smoke when shooting, no matter the method. Smoke to me is 110 grains of blackpowder, and bullet lube contributes next to nothing. Many people have different expectations.

Accuracy for me has always been best with wax lubes. I did get very good accuracy with powder coated bullets. Enough people have shown me, that I have to believe coated bullets can at least match wax lube bullet accuracy at least most of the time. I should do some more comparisons now that I have really fine tuned some loads of mine. For rifle shooters, this can vary again based on expectations. If all you want is 1.5 MOA with an accurate rifle, any method is very capable of that accuracy. If you look at the top level cast bullet rifle shooters, they universally use wax lubes. I can only speculate this is because they can't get better accuracy with any other method. These are guys shooting under MOA at very high velocities for rifles. The guy from Mountain Molds has a lot of information on this, as well as Larry Gibson, and a number of others on this board. Not me though, I'm very happy with 1.5 moa accuracy. So you may ask, why not shoot coated bullets then? Well, I don't see any reason to. I do ask for top level accuracy with handguns, and only got that with wax lubes. So I also wax lube my rifle rounds.

I'll talk about some of the bad I've seen for both wax lube and coated. For wax lubes, there is a limit to what they can handle. Even with a gas check, 40,000 PSI is asking a lot of anything but a very hard alloy. I've got some loads that I cast with 20-1 alloy, and I'm sure are up there in pressure, and I just accept they leave minor lead fouling. Accuracy maintains for at least 15 shots, and the fouling cleans out easy, so I see no reason to worry about it. The bulk of what I shoot do not foul a bore. There is wash, and some powder residue, but I could shoot thousands of rounds, and accuracy and reliability would never change. The very soft alloys is one area I believe coated bullets have a real advantage. If done correctly, lead should never touch the bore with a coated bullet. The problem with coated is it also changes the dimensions of the bullet. The above mentioned 20-1 bullet, if coated, would no longer fit in the gun. You could buy a mold with coating in mind too, so they may be a moot point. The other thing I notice, is that leading is telling you something. Something is beyond its limits. If you take away that telltale, you could be shooting with inferior bullets and never know it. If you are ok shooting a one-size-fits-many bullet, and are ok with mediocre accuracy in some guns, then coated may be a good way to go. They are essentially an easy-bake homemade plated bullet. I personally like that I can customize bullets for certain guns, and get all I can from them. There seems to be an idea that jacketed bullets can be more accurate than cast bullets. Maybe in precision rifle shooting this is true, but in handguns, I have not found this to be the case. In fact, I usually find a FMJ to be one of the least accurate bullets. A custom fitted cast bullet is extremely accurate, I've never had a jacketed bullet do better, although a jacketed bullet is plug-and-play. You pay a lot for that convenience. One thing I have not seen mentioned is the smell. I like the smell of alox myself, some don't. The smell of many wax lubes like TAC1 is heavenly. Anyone who doesn't love the smell of a good wax lube ain't right.:razz: Coated bullets on the other hand smell foul. Kind of like a freshly laid tar road, but with a hint of burning plastic. While it has no effect on shooting, it is not pleasing at all.

I won't get into the time it takes to do each method, as there is a decently fast way to do each. I will talk about the learning curve, as someone who learned to do each on his own. Tumble lube is fairly easy. It took a few tries to figure out how much to add without it being too much or too little, but otherwise is hard to really screw up. Most people, myself included, use WAY too much to begin with. Once you realize it takes so little, it is a very easy method with no equipment besides a push through bullet sizer needed. Wax lube is a no-brainer, but the methods to apply them vary greatly. I started with pan lubing, better known as pain lubing. I still pan lube, and dip lube, but doing more than 100 bullets is no fun at all. Instead, most people would benefit from a lubesizer. Some claim these are very expensive, and they are new. Not long after I started, I went to a flea market, and found a Lyman 450 for $25. I still use it. It is a true one and done tool, and can be found used easily. Coating requires at the very least some kind of oven. Toaster ovens can be had for cheap, about the same as a used lubesizer. Depending on the method, you will also need some various trays, plastic BBs, and containers. Some you may have, some not. I found coating easy enough to do. I did the shake and bake method with BB's. I did make somewhat of a mess, but I could make a mess with anything you give me. The hard part was standing the bullets up without disturbing the coating. I never did try not standing them up, and I've seen varied results of doing such. Some get good results, but many seem to produce sub-par bullets. Based on what I have seen on this forum, there are every bit as many problems for new casters with coating, as there is with wax lube. Maybe more so, as besides the usual bullet fit, brass prep problems, they also need to figure out how to get a good coating, and fully cured. No method is difficult, but I'd say tumble lube is easiest, followed by wax lube, and coating is the most difficult.

The last thing I want to touch on is sizers, which are some of the most important tools a caster uses, no matter the method. While I would recommend a used Lyman or similar down-and-up lubesizer to a new caster, they are not without fault. I know many get them to work with flat top punches and flat point bullets. I did get the flat punches to work sometimes, but overall, they have been a failure. They are not easy to use. Instead, I highly recommend you get a fitted top punch. This can not always be done with Lee design bullets, but often can. If I buy a mold from someone like Accurate or NOE, I always buy the top punch to match. The push through sizers are vastly superior for the purpose of sizing a bullet. One punch fits all, and bullets self-center in the die. They are usually way faster too, although you need to lube/coat in a separate step most of the time. The Star is the exception, and even used are quite expensive. I own one, and they are not without faults either. Both Lee and NOE now offer very cheap bushing type push through sizers, and they are great.

All that said, at the moment I mostly use wax lubed bullets, with some tumble lube. I have not shot a coated bullet in some time. They don't offer me much advantage.

[murf205]

Well, I figured I would try "FLAMING", since no one else has,,,

Hand taped, of course,,,

https://i.imgur.com/C3lM1rn.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xcGvFwQ.jpg

:-P

This is all that I know on the subject,,,,,,,,,,[smilie=p:


:holysheep :mrgreen:

Now that's what a plow/flame ought to look like!!

[ryanmattes]

I never found alox lube to be sticky,


Some of this, I'm sure, has to do with location. If you live in Michigan, wax and alox may be neat and clean. In Texas it's a mess. This summer I had to keep upping the pure wax content of my lube to about 80% wax just to keep it from sagging out of my bullets just sitting there there on the table.

My pan lube process involved cooling to room temp and then an hour in the fridge before I could cut out the bullets, otherwise the lube would pull out when you dropped the bullet from the cutter. You need the bullets "cold" to keep the lube in them, where "cold" is 20 degrees cooler than room temp. Because room temp in my garage was 106.

There's no such thing as needing to warm your alox here, unless you keep it in the fridge. And even then, it just means setting it out on your bench for 10 minutes. In Texas, cast bullets are body temp just sitting on the shelf.

We do have winter here, though. It's about 6 weeks long and involves a lot of rain.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[megasupermagnum]

At a certain point I think AC would be a good thing. A Texas summer definitely qualifys. I don't have AC, and my reloading room can get to 90-95 on certain days. I can't load on those days, but not because of the bullet. Besides the sweat, powder sticks to everything, you can't wish it all into the case. I would need a strong fan, making weighing powder impossible. There's plenty else which hot days make miserable. My bullet lube does not get soft until 110 or so degrees, but does run decent through the lube sizer at 70 degree room temp. It doesn't truly melt until over 160-170. I have never had lube melt out of a loaded round. Even hot cars should pose no threat, just keep the ammo out of the direct sun. Under the seats, it doesn't get that horribly hot.

[charlie b]

Might not get hot under the seats in Minnesota during the summer, but, out here it does.

[ryanmattes]

You get used to the heat. What sucks is when you have to do something out in the sun in that weather. Heat stroke us a real risk

What we can't handle here is cold. We've had the heat on for a couple weeks, and it was 65 today.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[Larry Gibson]

I doubt Texas gets any hotter than here in Arizona. But then I use 450s to lube my cast bullets with 2500+, BAC and some with Javelina. The lube doesn't run out at all. I went several years lubing and loading in my man cave where it got to 95 - 100 degrees during the day for several weeks during the summer. The heat wasn't a problem with the lube but it was to me so several years ago I had AC put in. I keep it around 75 degrees there in the man cave ]garage under the house] now during the time it's 110+ degrees outside. Any less and it's too cool when you're climatized to 100+ degrees. No problems with the lubed bullets shooting them in 120+ heat either.

[Jim22]

"... if I start PC'ing and equals more money wasted." Maybe I'm different but I think if something makes my efforts better it's not money wasted. Instead it is money well spent. I have not tried powder coating but I am ready to try. I found a toaster oven cheap and have ordered some PC powder. When I get going I will have some new challenges just like I did when reloading and boolit casting.

[charlie b]

Grew up in Phx. You can get used to it. Am glad I don't live there anymore :)

[Mal Paso]

I doubt Texas gets any hotter than here in Arizona. But then I use 450s to lube my cast bullets with 2500+, BAC and some with Javelina. The lube doesn't run out at all. I went several years lubing and loading in my man cave where it got to 95 - 100 degrees during the day for several weeks during the summer. The heat wasn't a problem with the lube but it was to me so several years ago I had AC put in. I keep it around 75 degrees there in the man cave ]garage under the house] now during the time it's 110+ degrees outside. Any less and it's too cool when you're climatized to 100+ degrees. No problems with the lubed bullets shooting them in 120+ heat either.

I never understood the AZ restaurants and stores with 65F air conditioning when it's 110F outside. From 65F to a 125F car and wait for the air conditioning. All my short trips around Phoenix I'd just leave the car windows open and let it be hot.

I use a soft lube and never had any troubles even above 110F. I remember one afternoon at Ben Avery Shooting Facility it was so hot the guns would get too hot to shoot, I had to change guns and wait for the other to cool. No lube failure though.

[Texas by God]

It gets hot enough in a vehicle here to melt the lube from .22 ammo and explode butane lighters but my alox lubed bullets do ok in my metal workshop in the shade. My truck gun is a 22-250 so no worry in the summer about melting lube.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[Lloyd Smale]

Some of this, I'm sure, has to do with location. If you live in Michigan, wax and alox may be neat and clean. In Texas it's a mess. This summer I had to keep upping the pure wax content of my lube to about 80% wax just to keep it from sagging out of my bullets just sitting there there on the table.

My pan lube process involved cooling to room temp and then an hour in the fridge before I could cut out the bullets, otherwise the lube would pull out when you dropped the bullet from the cutter. You need the bullets "cold" to keep the lube in them, where "cold" is 20 degrees cooler than room temp. Because room temp in my garage was 106.

There's no such thing as needing to warm your alox here, unless you keep it in the fridge. And even then, it just means setting it out on your bench for 10 minutes. In Texas, cast bullets are body temp just sitting on the shelf.

We do have winter here, though. It's about 6 weeks long and involves a lot of rain.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

I live in michigan and gave up on alox because i had a bunch of 38s loaded with 105 lees tumble lubed and stored in my barn all summer. Obviously it gets hot enough even here because the alox melted and contaminated the powder and after about the 3 squib i started pulling bullets and found about every one had a glob of alox an powder on the base of the bullet. Had to pull down two coffee cans full of them to get my brass back. Only way id use alox again is if i was loading today to shoot tommarow.

[Forrest r]

Sizing bullets in the heat is 1 thing.

Using those traditionally lubed bullets in a wide range of heat is another thing all together. Words like lube purge start to enter the vocabulary.

For some odd reason pc'd bullets are not affected by lube purge.

Same goes when using javelina or nra 50/50 lubes in revolvers. The hotter it is outside the more smoke in the air & soot on the revolvers. Some people like wiping their revolvers down & washing their hands every +/- 100 rounds.

It impressive how far people have gone in this thread to either prove or disprove advantages (if any) of a pc'd bullet. Myself I could care less what anyone uses but it has been entertaining readings.

[anothernewb]

Well, I guess I'll add my .02 to the mix. I shoot almost entirely indoors in the winter.
As many of the regular shooters have also switched, there's been a significant reduction in smoke vs when we all used traditional lube.
At 50' I have noticed no difference in accuracy among the several calibers I reload. I have also not altered my load data either.

Regarding loading - I find the coated bullets just plain nicer to handle than wax lubed.

That being said, I wouldn't tell anyone to stop using traditional lube if that's what they prefer.

[gnappi]

Beside the long term bullet storage issues, cleanliness of handling and clean bore issues, no smoke caused by lube, not needing a base heater, loading to higher velocity, not having the sizer or seating dies clumped with lube, not having to close off holes in sizing dies, or needing to buy lube, my LOA will never EVER change in the bullet seating operation due to wax buildup in it.

The last is the best reason for it, if that were the only one I'd still not use wax.

For 40+ years I used wax based lubes of all types looking for lube nirvana, there's not enough money that would get me to switch back... all that wax lube I bought way back goes in the furnace now.

[waksupi]

Sizing bullets in the heat is 1 thing.

Using those traditionally lubed bullets in a wide range of heat is another thing all together. Words like lube purge start to enter the vocabulary.

For some odd reason pc'd bullets are not affected by lube purge.

Same goes when using javelina or nra 50/50 lubes in revolvers. The hotter it is outside the more smoke in the air & soot on the revolvers. Some people like wiping their revolvers down & washing their hands every +/- 100 rounds.

It impressive how far people have gone in this thread to either prove or disprove advantages (if any) of a pc'd bullet. Myself I could care less what anyone uses but it has been entertaining readings.

Ah, lube purging. It's nice to not have to chase loads for different temperatures.

[Larry Gibson]

Another test;

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?236746-Test-of-leadman-s-225438s-and-314299s-at-high-velocity

[dverna]

Ah, lube purging. It's nice to not have to chase loads for different temperatures.

Now that I am old and lazy...(wiser??)...lube purge is no longer a factor. The only time I must shoot in bad conditions is when I hunt. And I hunt with jacketed bullets. The rest of my shooting is done at 35-90 degrees. I may get lube purging but I am oblivious to it.

There was a fellow years ago who did lube testing at -20. I have not seen him post for a long time but he did a lot of work and it was interesting to read. I learned a lot....learned lubed cast bullets are a PITA if you need great performance over a wide temperature range.

Then there were the Three Amigos (IIRC) who worked on a "do it all" lube. Wide temperature range and no first shot flier. Pages and pages of trials and recipes. Dedicated men that invested many hours over cauldrons of stinky junk to make the ideal lube. And I learned a lot. Learned that it was a lot of work for little gain for what I needed. Jacketed bullets for when it matters are so much better and in the long run less expensive.

I used to shoot over 15k cast bullets a year and I needed productivity and quality. As a result I am "stuck" with a Star and lubing bullets. I am no Larry Gibson, but find myself in the same boat. There is just no incentive to change. I will try BBL if I can shoot unsized bullets. If I have to size anyway, I will stay with the Star. I must be lucky, as I do not see the problems other experience with lubed bullets.

But PC has its place so I do not discount it. And HiTek as well. In the end the more information we have the better choices we can make to suit our particular needs.

[fredj338]

"... if I start PC'ing and equals more money wasted." Maybe I'm different but I think if something makes my efforts better it's not money wasted. Instead it is money well spent. I have not tried powder coating but I am ready to try. I found a toaster oven cheap and have ordered some PC powder. When I get going I will have some new challenges just like I did when reloading and boolit casting.
Not a lot of $$$ needed to do quality PC. A cheap toaster oven, some food grade plastic tubs & ASBB. Then a way to size them, I prefer sizing my bullets to uniform dia. PC is cheap too. 1# will last you for 1000s of bullets. I can coat 300-400 with 1 rounded tsp of powder. There is almost no waste shake & bake.

[onelight]

Interesting I thought people used lubed bullets for 100 years before any one had AC :)

[pergoman]

I haven't lubed a boolit in a few years since I started using Smoke's powders and the shake-n-bake method. I shoot approximately 30K rounds of centerfire handgun ammo per year and I'm happy to be no longer in the sticky ammo club. I use a Mr. Bullet Feeder to supply my Star and Lee AP sizers. Gotta tell you, the Lee is an impressive machine at any price and I use it before the Star whenever I have the right size die available. It is simply way more trouble free for rapid feeding. The coated boolits don't gum up my Mr. Bullet Feeder. You can't use traditionally lubed or tumble lubed bullets with a feeder. Since I don't have to touch the bullets or place them into one of my old Lyman or Star sizers, my fingers are safe. That's a big plus.
Some of the games I play require a lot of rounds in a very short period of time and smoke is a serious issue. Dumping 30+ rounds in under 10 seconds would be a visual nightmare with lube in the mix. Out of a PCC, lube is not a good option but with coated ammo I clean every few thousand rounds....maybe. I also shoot indoors again now that I use nothing but coated tips. After yesterday's practice indoors with 150@ 38's I had zero soot in my nostrils.
My ammo is all color coded and easy to identify one recipe from another. I use some molds in half a dozen different loadings or more. Different powders, amounts of powders, primers (only Federals for revolvers and CCI for open guns) bullet diameters, and seating depths are quickly differentiated.

[Lloyd Smale]

I haven't lubed a boolit in a few years since I started using Smoke's powders and the shake-n-bake method. I shoot approximately 30K rounds of centerfire handgun ammo per year and I'm happy to be no longer in the sticky ammo club. I use a Mr. Bullet Feeder to supply my Star and Lee AP sizers. Gotta tell you, the Lee is an impressive machine at any price and I use it before the Star whenever I have the right size die available. It is simply way more trouble free for rapid feeding. The coated boolits don't gum up my Mr. Bullet Feeder. You can't use traditionally lubed or tumble lubed bullets with a feeder. Since I don't have to touch the bullets or place them into one of my old Lyman or Star sizers, my fingers are safe. That's a big plus.
Some of the games I play require a lot of rounds in a very short period of time and smoke is a serious issue. Dumping 30+ rounds in under 10 seconds would be a visual nightmare with lube in the mix. Out of a PCC, lube is not a good option but with coated ammo I clean every few thousand rounds....maybe. I also shoot indoors again now that I use nothing but coated tips. After yesterday's practice indoors with 150@ 38's I had zero soot in my nostrils.
My ammo is all color coded and easy to identify one recipe from another. I use some molds in half a dozen different loadings or more. Different powders, amounts of powders, primers (only Federals for revolvers and CCI for open guns) bullet diameters, and seating depths are quickly differentiated.

you gave me a good idea. Color code the bullets for differnt alloys. Never thought of that. Even when i mix up new batches of hard or soft they vary some times and if i color coated them and kept a record id know buy looking at a loaded round what alloy was used for it.

[Larry Gibson]

Interesting I thought people used lubed bullets for 100 years before any one had AC :)

My AC in the man cave had nothing to do with the lube, was all about me.......:drinks:

[Yooper003]

This is just my .2$ on the subject.it seems to read like what ever method most are using ,that is what they are sticking with. Now I am not one of the many K’s a month shooters,mostly about a 100 rounds a week from my single shot rifles. Loading ,shooting ,casting & coating are my hobbies & intertainment. Mostly I use both methods, I mean both on the same boolits. Firstly i powder coat everything I cast, sizing & installing gas checks first, powder coating ,hen sizing again. I then do the 45/45/10 lube on a lot of my boolits before I load them. Probably don’t need too, but can’t hurt, can it?

[onelight]

My AC in the man cave had nothing to do with the lube, was all about me.......:drinks:
Gotcha [smilie=l:

[Petander]

I also like when I can use soft alloy (saving WW / Lino stash), just PC-coat with proper powder once after casting.

No sizing,no GC -not even for this 8 BHN GC Mihec Larsen 44 mag bullet @ 1000 fps. Just load and shoot. Smoke's excellent Clear here.

(Rounds in the pic are not crimped yet.)

https://i.postimg.cc/tTLrHVkw/IMG-20201204-124317.jpg

I fired these today, PC is great for quick,small batches. I also Hi Tek.

[Alferd Packer]

Been too lazy to powder Coat.
Can't see the time invested.
I just cast em, lube and shoot.
Cost added too.
I like to keep it cheap.

[LenH]

I wanted to see what all the fuss was about and got a multi color pack from Smoke, got the wife a new toaster oven and took the old one for baking.
I powder coated everything I could find and shot everything I had powder coated. I played with this stuff over a couple of years. Then one day I cast nearly
a thousand .45 slugs for my Bullseye season coming up and went back and sized and lubed every one of them and never looked back. I am still on the fence
about PC but slipping those bullets through a star and being basically done with it is more appealing to me. That is my nickel's worth.

[Burnt Fingers]

I've never used conventional lube. I tried some 45-45-10....once. It leaded up the bore so bad I threw the bottle in the trash.

I've got around 20K cast boolits sitting in ammo cans in the garage. Here in Texas conventional lube would be a problem when the heat shows up.

I try and do all my casting while it's cool out. I mainly use Hi-Tek. The amount of time involved is fractions of seconds per boolit.

It only takes one pass through the Star and I'm done. But I don't have to fiddle with setting punch depth or anything like that.

[skeet1]

I guess I'm just "old school" I have always sized and lubed in one step. I use one lube for all velocities , Carnuba Red works very well. Tell me why I should change.

Ken

[Burnt Fingers]

I guess I'm just "old school" I have always sized and lubed in one step. I use one lube for all velocities , Carnuba Red works very well. Tell me why I should change.

Ken

If it works for ya why change?

I shoot defensive pistol matches and don't need the lube smoke to obscure my sight picture.

[Geezer in NH]

I have 4 Lyman 45's and 2 450's. Each set up with what I shoot. Down, up Done.

No shake and then bake then size, No spray on then bake and size. Never mind standing them up to cook and then standing them up again when I screw up and knock them over.

Stored lubed and sized if they melt , I add some paraffin wax to the lube but that does not happen in NH that often! :bigsmyl2:

Other folks say they smoke to much I say as a retired pro FF that ain't what I would call smoke!

[Targa]

I had no intention of ever powder coating until I tried it last week, now I have no intention of going back to traditional lube.

[GARD72977]

you gave me a good idea. Color code the bullets for differnt alloys. Never thought of that. Even when i mix up new batches of hard or soft they vary some times and if i color coated them and kept a record id know buy looking at a loaded round what alloy was used for it.
I thought the same thing. I'm just too lazy to clean out the tumbler to change colors......

[ryanmattes]

I thought the same thing. I'm just too lazy to clean out the tumbler to change colors......With Hi-Tek you don't have to. I have 2 different colors mixed up right now, and the stuff keeps just fine as long as it's reasonably well sealed. Squirt in whichever color you want, shake for 30 seconds, dump on a wire tray. You can change colors for the next batch.

I mix up 50 or so ml at a time and leave it in the bottle. You only use 1ml per pound of bullets, so I always have plenty left over, and I can basically pick a color when I'm ready to coat.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[GARD72977]

I do use Hi Tek on my pistol bullets. It's my PC rifle that I.would like to color code. I guess I dont want it too bad or I would make it happen

[AlHunt]

I guess I'm just "old school" I have always sized and lubed in one step. I use one lube for all velocities , Carnuba Red works very well. Tell me why I should change.

Ken

You shouldn't change. If 200+ posts in this thread haven't made the case for you, nothing anyone types in this little box is going to. Conversely, I've read a lot of this thread and seen no reason not to PC.

my bullets are still better than yours ... (just kidding, just kidding..)

[dtknowles]

There is more than one way to skin a cat. One way is better than the other but it depends on a lot of different things so what is best for one person is not best for another person and that can change as situations or applications change. I am glad that some people PC or Hytec, there might be a time where I want to try it or where it would be better for me.

Tim

[PhatForrest]

I powder coat 9mms that are destined to see a Glock 34 factory barrel. Most everything else gets a trip through the Star Lubesizer.

[fredj338]

Been too lazy to powder Coat.
Can't see the time invested.
I just cast em, lube and shoot.
Cost added too.
I like to keep it cheap.

Again, not much cost added, unless you are making your own lubes from free matl. There is a small amount of add'l time to coat but for the better result, worth the small amount of time imo, but I was also slow to change.

[fredj338]

If it works for ya why change?

I shoot defensive pistol matches and don't need the lube smoke to obscure my sight picture.

Yeah especially on still days or at night! Depending on powder & lube, some look like they are shooting black powder!

[MGySgt]

I PC my 9mm because I have a lot of problems picking that little 120gr TC out of the LuberSizer without whipping the lub out of the lub groove.
I also have an older Lyman 225 gr RN 45acp that needs to be bumped up a little so it doesn't lead.

PCing those boolits solves those problems.

Yes I still use normal sizing/lubing on the rest of my boolets

[Walstr]

I like the fact that they store indefinitely without oxidizing. I don't like grit sticking to to my tumble lube or lubed grooves. Don't have to change lube for different velocities either. The list go on but I'll let others chime in.

Slim
Hey Slim, I had the same problem with tumble lube gettin' on all my rnds in a canvas bag when SASS'g. I then learnt (here I think) to tumble again quickly in Powdered Mica. Works fine.

[Walstr]

I started powder coating because my favorite revolver leaded horribly with tumble lubed or conventionally lubed bullets. I was a convert right away. The guns stay cleaner, the bullets are forgiving, and I see no difference in accuracy.

...that because orig pills were too small & PC'g fixed'em?