92 Win 44-40 and Lee 200 RF

[smkummer]

I will load these for a friend. I will go with unique powder and probably tier 2 loads per Lyman’s 49th. R-P new brass. What should I size the bullet to? They come out as cast about .430-431. And my smallest sizer on hand is .429.

[Cast_outlaw]

Depends on the grove size my Winchester 92 I got new in 2018 is 430 but if you can slug the bore and measure it would get your best results companies tend to use 44mag barrels as they are tooled up for that and it’s easy than having tooling 1 or 2 thou smaller

[DougGuy]

You want to size to fit the throat, not the bore.

You would likely need a cast of the chamber and throat, or a pound cast, not sure how easy it would be to slug that part of the chamber but that would tell you as well if you can do it.

Here is a thread on how to do a pound cast: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?356251-Pound-Cast-instructions-(for-rifle-chamber)

If you search I am sure you will find one or more threads on making a cast with cerro safe.

[Prairie Cowboy]

That depends on the groove diameter of the rifle, which needs to be determined by slugging the bore.
For a .427" or .428" groove diameter, the .429" should work well.
For a modern replica which may have a .429" groove diameter, then .430" should work well, if cartridges will chamber with the fatter bullet.

Some original rifles may have groove diameters larger than .427" as well.

Your dies will be made for a .427" groove diameter I would think since that is SAAMI spec. So, you may need to use a .44 magnum case mouth expander, after using the .44-40 case mouth expander die, in order to avoid collapsing the thin cases during bullet seating.

I'm sure that there are others here with more experience in loading the .44-40 that will have excellent advice for you.

[Texas by God]

I would load ONE cartridge for him to see if it fits his gun- unless he leaves the gun with you to determine this. Fat bullets are fine unless the action won't close.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[BeemerMark]

I would load ONE cartridge for him to see if it fits his gun- unless he leaves the gun with you to determine this. Fat bullets are fine unless the action won't close.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk
Ditto that. As long as the round will chamber (and my '92 does) a .430 bullet works fine.

[smkummer]

Thanks guys. I am loading a couple without primer or powder. If they chamber, then I’ll pull bullets and go from there. I’ll also bring a lead ball and see what his groove diameter is. Gun is an original 1892 Win. saddle ring carbine. Silver/grey gun on the outside with defined rifling in the bore.

[smkummer]

Ok, I loaded (3) R/P ( actually older REM-UMC cases) with 1. 427 size bullet 2. 429 bullet and 3. 431 (unsized) bullet. These are dummy cases that were sized but with no primer or powder.

It’s 25 miles to my friends house so I will combine trips and get him these cases to try out. He has helped me in the past by finding me a Marlin 39A for $250 reciently.

[leadeye]

I've got an old 1892 and use that bullet sized .428 with 8 grains Unique powder. A south American Rasetti repatriation, it works very well.

[beltfed]

FWIW,
My First year production original M 1892 rifle slugs out with a .430-0.431 groove diameter.
I found that my Lyman 429434HP bullet sized to 0.430" over a modest load of IMR 4227,
velocity 1330fps, Rem cases, chambers just fine and shoots into "cloverleaves" at 75 yards. It has an original Lyman 1A tang sight on it.
Shot my second last buck with it at about 65 yards. One shot thru heart, one kill. He went about 70 yards
before he dropped dead.
beltfed/arnie

[DougGuy]

Y'all totally disregarded my advice about size to fit the throat. It doesn't matter what the groove diameter is, if the throat is larger and you fit to the throat, it will GLADLY swage into the bore and make a good seal. If you have a .429" groove diameter but the throat is .432" then you got this slop in the throat that is going to freely allow powder gas to bypass the .430" or whatever boolit you use, and it will lead the daylights out of the gun.

If you can use a .432" with no interference from the bottleneck portion of the chamber neck, you would be much better off sizing to .432" if the chamber neck will allow it, and it will fit in the throat and chamber.

The numbers I used in the above paragraphs are more expected with a modern gun, but I used those numbers to illustrate a point. The gun being an original Winchester likely has a smaller than .429" groove, but it would still respond well to a boolit with a snug fit in the throat.

[beltfed]

DougGuy,
You are absolutely correct re. Freebore and Leade dimensions or "throat" as you call it is most important.
My point about my 1st year M1892, is that mine has the larger groove diameter, despite what others, including you
are saying about smaller groove diameters are "likely" in M 92s.
Anyways, I hope that all will heed the notations to slug and chamber cast these wonderful old and newer 44 WCF rifles AND revolvers,
so as to know to feed them Correct , and good fitting bullets
beltfed/arnie

[Prairie Cowboy]

What DougGuy says makes perfect sense once it has been explained.
The problem is of course whether matching that larger throat diameter creates a cartridge that will not chamber.

I recall that original BP .44-40 cartridges were loaded with pure lead bullets, and that the fast pressure spike of BP would cause the bullet to upset quickly to allow the base to fill the bore, and perhaps the throat.

The reloading instructions in this old cartridge box might be evidence of this:

272232

[smkummer]

Ok, he feels some resistance when chambering a .431 diameter slug. I am going with .429 then. That’s good. I feel I was going to crush a few of the cases loading .431 diameter bullets into the thin Remington cases .

[Larry Gibson]

I shoot lots of .429 and .430 sized cast bullets in my Cimarron M92 44-40. It has a .429 groove barrel, no idea of the throat diameter as I shoot the loads loaded for the Vaquero OM with .429 cylinder throats. With the iron sights I can't tell the difference in accuracy between the two different sizes shooting out to 300 yards.

272448

[Savvy Jack]

Y'all totally disregarded my advice about size to fit the throat. It doesn't matter what the groove diameter is, if the throat is larger and you fit to the throat, it will GLADLY swage into the bore and make a good seal. If you have a .429" groove diameter but the throat is .432" then you got this slop in the throat that is going to freely allow powder gas to bypass the .430" or whatever boolit you use, and it will lead the daylights out of the gun.

If you can use a .432" with no interference from the bottleneck portion of the chamber neck, you would be much better off sizing to .432" if the chamber neck will allow it, and it will fit in the throat and chamber.

The numbers I used in the above paragraphs are more expected with a modern gun, but I used those numbers to illustrate a point. The gun being an original Winchester likely has a smaller than .429" groove, but it would still respond well to a boolit with a snug fit in the throat.



Then you have Pressure issues, although not necessarily an issue when used in a 92'. It is best to size to the bore, NOT the chamber. There is negligible accuracy issues when using .427" lead bullets in a .429 bore.

If you want to test the chamber fit, try this;
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading?authuser=0

[indian joe]

OP was gonna load blackpowder ? for my money that LEE boolit is a mite skinny on lube - cookies and wads and stuff take up valuable powder space in the 44wcf - same same for heavier boolits - The RCBS cowboy boolit carts enough lube for our 24inch barreled rifles - not a cheap mold (downunder at least) but it works good and shoots well.

[missionary5155]

Well we have several 92s with very fat throats. Our 1907 vintage is .435+. Groove is .432.
We tried .429 up to .431 40-1 mix with 3F and had real nice patterns at 25 yards.
Lapped the old out some more until it dropped .433+ which is the fattest that will chamber. And wallla! Patterns turned into 2 inches at 50 yards.
No pressure issues. And can hit what is pointed at.
Every rifle barrel is a journey of its own and blanket statements are not always going to be correct.

[Savvy Jack]

Well we have several 92s with very fat throats. Our 1907 vintage is .435+. Groove is .432.
We tried .429 up to .431 40-1 mix with 3F and had real nice patterns at 25 yards.
Lapped the old out some more until it dropped .433+ which is the fattest that will chamber. And wallla! Patterns turned into 2 inches at 50 yards.
No pressure issues. And can hit what is pointed at.
Every rifle barrel is a journey of its own and blanket statements are not always going to be correct.

Ed Harris designed a bullet for oversized chambers that might help some. Gives an oversized .448 driving band but maintains a .428 shank.

What I can tell you is that you will never know when a 44-40 cartridge is producing over pressures until it's too late for the 73' and revolvers. What I mean by that is that the 44-40 will not show any signs of normal over-pressures until about 25,000psi. There you may start seeing some flattened primers.

The Winchester 92' has been an interesting monster but I have never had the chance to travel it's highways...doubt I ever will.

272639 272640 272641 272642 272643