38 special +P

[Hossfly]

Just acquired over 5000 nickel plated 38 spl. Looking at head stamps, Fed, Win, mostly. Some have +P

Question I have is, what is the difference between the cases if any? Is it that the +P just have more powder?

Did notice the +P marked ones have flatter looking primers. Measured wall thickness, length, OD. All measure same.

[Darth Jäger]

I've purchased 38 special brass from https://www.starlinebrass.com/ in the past, and according to them, the +P on the head stamp is for the purpose of segregating your hot +P loads from your standard loads. That is the only reason, there is no other difference. The "flatter looking primers" is more than likely the result of the hotter +P having a roughly 10% powder charge increase, creating much more chamber pressure.

[Hossfly]

I've purchased 38 special brass from https://www.starlinebrass.com/ in the past, and according to them, the +P on the head stamp is for the purpose of segregating your hot +P loads from your standard loads. That is the only reason, there is no other difference. The "flatter looking primers" is more than likely the result of the hotter +P having a roughly 10% powder charge increase, creating much more chamber pressure.


Check your in box.

[GrizzLeeBear]

38 spl brass is 38 spl brass. The +P just indicates that the original factory load that was in it was a slightly hotter (+P) load. The brass is no different.

[Winger Ed.]

I run across a few here & there.
The factory load for them is a little hotter and so designated with the +P stamp.
They're marketed to law enforcement, personal defense ammo, but the cases are the same.
I just leave 'em in the bucket, and use them with the standard ones.

[rintinglen]

I usually sort them out and use them for--surprise--+P loads. Won't lie and say I catch 'em all, but generally, if I have a handload in brass marked +P, truth in advertising laws apply. However, there is no difference other than head stamp between brass for the 38 Special and the 38 Special +P. The only 38 brass that is different is Wadcutter brass. These cases normally have a cannelure (or two) down around the middle of the case and have thinner walls.

[Kosh75287]

The "flatter looking primers" is more than likely the result of the hotter +P having a roughly 10% powder charge increase, creating much more chamber pressure.
The +P rating means the cartridge is loaded to roughly 10% higher chamber pressures, which may OR MAY NOT be due to a 10% increase in charge weight. As a matter of fact, it's most likely due to a smaller increase in charge weight, and could very well be a different propellant and charge weight, entirely. The only certainty is that the chamber pressure will be ~10% over standard pressure specs. There may be minimal or no actual increase in velocity, particularly if a different propellant is used.

Parenthetically, I'VE gone to just coloring the headstamps and/or primers some "hot" color (red, orange, yellow), and not sorting +P from standard cases.

[Petrol & Powder]

38 spl brass is 38 spl brass. The +p just indicates that the original factory load that was in it was a slightly hotter (+p) load. The brass is no different.

/\ this /\

[No_1]

I received the same story from them many years ago when I ask the same question.


I've purchased 38 special brass from https://www.starlinebrass.com/ in the past, and according to them, the +P on the head stamp is for the purpose of segregating your hot +P loads from your standard loads. That is the only reason, there is no other difference. The "flatter looking primers" is more than likely the result of the hotter +P having a roughly 10% powder charge increase, creating much more chamber pressure.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I'm going to take all of your words for this, that there is no difference in .38 Spec. brass....BUT, in the distant past I worked for an agency that issued +P+ WCC ammo. I still have lots of the brass (and some of the factory loads), nickel plated and head stamped mid-'80s and it seems thicker and to take a bit more effort to resize. Also, later, I worked for the USAF and legitimately acquired a bunch of their brass that was headstamped WCC, mostly late '70s. This was the 110 gr. loading with just a little of the nose of the FMJ bullet sticking out of a heavily roll crimped case. Some lots had crimped primers, some did not. Again, it seems thicker. Maybe one of these long cold winter nights I'll break out the calipers and do some measuring.

[Kosh75287]

HP-38 0.357" 1.455" 3.6 661 12,600 CUP 4.3 779 15,900 CUP 4.6 807 18,100 CUP

Okay, here's an example, if a clumsy one, of what I'm talking about. Anytime one assumes that 10% more propellant means 10% more pressure, they're tempting fate.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Kosh is right, +P is about pressure increase, not powder or velocity. .38 spl standard max. pressure is 17,000 psi and +P is 20,000 psi which is actually a 17% increase.

Here is a good write up by Chuck Hawks https://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_P_ammo.htm

And if you really want to geek out the SAMMI data for all the pistol calibers https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.3-CFP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

[Petrol & Powder]

The OP was asking about the case markings, "Question I have is, what is the difference between the cases if any?"

[USSR]

See post #4. +P on the brass simply tells you what the factory load was.

Don

[Petrol & Powder]

Or post #8 ............

[Slugster]

My observation is that standard .38 special cases and +P cases weigh the same.

[tazman]

I'm going to take all of your words for this, that there is no difference in .38 Spec. brass....BUT, in the distant past I worked for an agency that issued +P+ WCC ammo. I still have lots of the brass (and some of the factory loads), nickel plated and head stamped mid-'80s and it seems thicker and to take a bit more effort to resize. Also, later, I worked for the USAF and legitimately acquired a bunch of their brass that was headstamped WCC, mostly late '70s. This was the 110 gr. loading with just a little of the nose of the FMJ bullet sticking out of a heavily roll crimped case. Some lots had crimped primers, some did not. Again, it seems thicker. Maybe one of these long cold winter nights I'll break out the calipers and do some measuring.

The brass you mention is indeed thicker in the walls. I no longer have the measurements around to post but it most certainly was.
Just like most Remington 38 Special brass is thinner in the walls.
Anytime I fine some of that WCC brass I set it aside. I don't use it for my normal loads.

[nicholst55]

I'm going to take all of your words for this, that there is no difference in .38 Spec. brass....BUT, in the distant past I worked for an agency that issued +P+ WCC ammo. I still have lots of the brass (and some of the factory loads), nickel plated and head stamped mid-'80s and it seems thicker and to take a bit more effort to resize. Also, later, I worked for the USAF and legitimately acquired a bunch of their brass that was headstamped WCC, mostly late '70s. This was the 110 gr. loading with just a little of the nose of the FMJ bullet sticking out of a heavily roll crimped case. Some lots had crimped primers, some did not. Again, it seems thicker. Maybe one of these long cold winter nights I'll break out the calipers and do some measuring.

The .38 +P+ ammo is/was loaded to .357 Mag velocities and pressures. This was a ploy used by LE agencies to give them .357 performance while LEGALLY still using .38 Special ammo. The logic was that they would be subject to fewer legal actions by doing this.

The WCC military brass is significantly thicker than standard .38 Spl brass. When loaded to normal .38 Spl pressures, they will last for a very long time. In a previous life I had access to large quantities of M41 .38 Spl Ball ammo. It was low-powered, inaccurate, and very inconsistent. The brass was worth keeping and reloading; that and the ammo cans were the best parts of the ammo!

[beagle]

Yeah, that stuff is thicker but it's not commercial brass. I refer to it as milspec brass as it was produced for the military. I've see it in RA, LC, FC, WCC, TZZ and maybe some I've missed. Being frugal, I never throw brass away but I've found if it is trimmed it loads all right (lengths all over the map). It is thicker and usually gives the snake swallowing the egg appearance with loaded rounds but the darn stuff lasts forever. When I was in the Army, the Private Owned Weapons range was full of it that had been liberated for off duty use and I didn't let it slide.

In researching for my Castpics article on high speed .38 Special loads. I found it in writing somewhere that you guys are right. The + P was for the initial load and the brass is the same. I was kinda interested in the pressures the brass was designed for and apparently there is no difference. That was to protect all the old wartime Colts and S & Ws that may encounter hotter ammo./beagle


The brass you mention is indeed thicker in the walls. I no longer have the measurements around to post but it most certainly was.
Just like most Remington 38 Special brass is thinner in the walls.
Anytime I fine some of that WCC brass I set it aside. I don't use it for my normal loads.

[dtknowles]

I always segregate my brass by head stamp. I like it that brass comes with variety. I can make various loads using different brass and know what is what even out of the box. +p brass might be the same as other brass but what other brass. Over time even brass from the same manufacturer has slightly different head stamps. The size and position of the lettering changes. Hell, Rem 7.62 x 37 brass could be small primer or large primer.

Tim

[dverna]

I'm going to take all of your words for this, that there is no difference in .38 Spec. brass....BUT, in the distant past I worked for an agency that issued +P+ WCC ammo. I still have lots of the brass (and some of the factory loads), nickel plated and head stamped mid-'80s and it seems thicker and to take a bit more effort to resize. Also, later, I worked for the USAF and legitimately acquired a bunch of their brass that was headstamped WCC, mostly late '70s. This was the 110 gr. loading with just a little of the nose of the FMJ bullet sticking out of a heavily roll crimped case. Some lots had crimped primers, some did not. Again, it seems thicker. Maybe one of these long cold winter nights I'll break out the calipers and do some measuring.

That would not be too surprising. We know that .308 military brass has less volume than commercial brass. I believe the same holds true for 5.56.

[Forrest r]

WCC was a fantastic brass, used to buy 5000 cases every year up at camp perry to use for a season of pistol competitions. Used to pair them with H&G #50's and lyman's 359311's & ww452 powder.

Right now I use a bunch of mixed brass with 70%+ of it being ww wc brass. Really doesn't make a difference at short range (50ft).

38spl brass really hasn't evolved that much since switching to the modern web designed brass we use today from the old balloon headed cases.

IMHO:
The stampings on the bottom of the cases are just that, stampings.

[Boogieman]

[QUOTE=dverna;5043397]That would not be too surprising. We know that .308 military brass has less volume than commercial brass. I believe the same holds true for 5.56.[/ Not always true with 5.56 LC brass. The load i was using in 5.56 LC brass would over flow in 223 Rem. cases.

[MT Gianni]

I'm going to take all of your words for this, that there is no difference in .38 Spec. brass....BUT, in the distant past I worked for an agency that issued +P+ WCC ammo. I still have lots of the brass (and some of the factory loads), nickel plated and head stamped mid-'80s and it seems thicker and to take a bit more effort to resize. Also, later, I worked for the USAF and legitimately acquired a bunch of their brass that was headstamped WCC, mostly late '70s. This was the 110 gr. loading with just a little of the nose of the FMJ bullet sticking out of a heavily roll crimped case. Some lots had crimped primers, some did not. Again, it seems thicker. Maybe one of these long cold winter nights I'll break out the calipers and do some measuring.

A much easier test would be grains of water held in +P cases vs standard cases. Exterior dimensions being the same, especially case length.

[Winger Ed.]

it seems thicker. Maybe one of these long cold winter nights I'll break out the calipers and do some measuring.

I think a quickie test would be to size a couple of each with the same brand/head stamp, trim them, and weigh 'em.

A powder scale should be sensitive enough to tell if a thicker walled case is heavier.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Certainly all good ideas!

[robertbank]

Nickle brass may or may not be thicker. It is harder and from my experience takes more effort to re-size due to the Nickle coating. Also from experience the cases tend to split after fewer reloading's. I have always attributed the splits due to the nickle being harder than brass and hardened quicker due to the re-sizing.

I know we all hae our quirks when we reload. eg I tend to hold my tongue pressed against my right cheek when measuring case lengths. Just a habit I guess. I don't segregate my head stamps. I did some testing over my F1 Chrony a number of years ago and found there was virtually no discernable difference in velocity spreads in any of my pistol calibers using mixed brass or segregated. The difference in case volumes from one brand to another just did not have a material effect on performance for any of my applications at my skill level. Certainly the Chrony offered no evidence. I shoot action shooting such as IPSC and IDPA so I tend to load in volume and am not faced with the same challenges as say a Bullseye shooter is. Action shooting and plinking at targets of opportunity at our range are my main tasks assigned to my pistols. I have and do bench my loads for accuracy though out to 20 yards and have discerned no material difference in accuracy using mixed vs segregated brass. This likely reflects my abilities with a benched handgun using tired eyes but it is my experience.

Take Care

Bob