40-70 for Long Range

[Boz330]

Anybody use one? I know the 45s are better but I shoot mostly mid range with the occasional long range match thrown in. The recoil is more manageable as well as the weight of the rifle for all around use.

Bob

[MikeT]

Bob,

I shot a 40-70SS in a 1874 Shiloh Sharps for several years. Also used a Hiwall in 40-82 Winchester as well as a Browning 40-65 [latter opened up to 40-82 Silhouette by Lone Star Rifle]. These rifles all had the standard 16 twist and shot well to 900 yards. When I had a hiwall in 40-70SS rebarreled to 45-70, my scores at 1K went up a noticeable amount.
Interesting thing is that the recoil from my 13 pound 40-82 was more than my 14.8 pound 45-70.

My 40 caliber rifles worked best with bullets of less than 1.4 inches in length.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

[Don McDowell]

I have shot my 40-70 to 1000 yards, but it wouldn't be my first choice.
Pulling targets in Creedmoor matches, the 40's all seem to do ok until the wind picks up, then you start seeing a lot of oblong holes .
If I were to use a 40 for long range it would probably be a 16 + lb. 40-90 bn. I liked the way my 10 lb 40-90 shoots to 1000 but the recoil is worse than a 45-110.

[Deadeye Bly]

I shot my Shiloh 40/70 at Reade Range in PA this past August in the long range match. It is a 14" twist and I shot a 440 grain Creedmoor style bullet. At 800 I was right in with the winners but had trouble at 900. I could not get them in the black except for one 9. Conditions were changing fast and with no spotter by the time I got in the gun found the target and got a shot off it had changed. I had two dirt diggers early on at 1000 came up several minutes and finished OK. I shot a better score at 1000 with 2 misses than at 900. I think with some more load development and experience on my part at long range it will be a competitive rifle.

[country gent]

Boz what do you consider "long Range" ? I shoot my cpa 40-65 out to 500 yds with good results, its more knowing your sight settings and reading wind than caliber. I shoot a 400 grn Old west Nasa bullet in mine. Or a 425 grn baco PP bullet.

I shoot all Black Powder Ussually Olde Ensforde or occasionally Swiss. I normally load in the 1100-1200 fps range.

I have been told theres 2 current versions of the 40-70 and you need to know which rim your rifle is cut for.

I think the 40-70 will do well just work up a solid load and track the sight settings, But also enjoy the ride

[Randy Bohannon]

I have a Shiloh 1874 in 40-70 SS ,with brass being somewhat of a issue right now and having to work with what you can get it would not be my first choice. One of the 40’s that use modified 45-70 cases would be a better choice if I was doing it again. Lots of cases around to tailor to the chamber and load which only enhances accuracy, 40-65 or 40-50 SBN are two excellent cartridges that don’t have the flies the 40-70 SS has. Modern chambers and bores have no relation to the originals other than a name and case length They are not consistent performers with .408 bores and something that looks like the original cases which are all over the place in rim thickness and chamber cuts. I have spent more time with the 4070 SS than other cartridge in one rifle, six moulds and varying degrees of consistency. One BPCR top shooter said about the 40-70 SS, It will lay down on you when you think you have it figured out” The 40-70 SS is barely if ever among the top scores at matches, not so for the 40-65 or even the 40-50 SBN
If you have your heart set on one by all means go for it,it has a lots to teach.

[Lead pot]

I used the .40-70 Shiloh for several years for the gong shoots and it has won me a few dust collector's when I started that game but changed to the .50-90 and .45-90 and both out did the .40-70. The .50 was my go to rifle it is the most reliable over the .40-70 and the .45-90 but you need to be able to control it and put up with the complaints from the shooter next to you because of the concussion when it goes off LOL.

[Boz330]

I have shot my 40-70 to 1000 yards, but it wouldn't be my first choice.
Pulling targets in Creedmoor matches, the 40's all seem to do ok until the wind picks up, then you start seeing a lot of oblong holes .
If I were to use a 40 for long range it would probably be a 16 + lb. 40-90 bn. I liked the way my 10 lb 40-90 shoots to 1000 but the recoil is worse than a 45-110.

Here in the east the wind isn't quite the problem that you guys put up with. Most matches will be at 600yd. We have several matches at 1000yd, Oak Ridge, and 3 at Camp Atterbury. I'm not all that competitive but enjoy competing. I'm just trying to reduce inventory. The old adage that "the man who only shoots one rifle is probably good with it" comes to mind. Having time to work up loads for several different rifles and types of matches is an issue as well. I'm way closer to 75 than 74 so I'm sure not worrying any of the top shooters around here. Add to that my eye sight which has taken a power dive in the last year. It is about having fun with friends more than anything else.

Bob

[Lead pot]

Bob,
For 600 and even the 1K the .40-70 will do the job. I'm starting to go back to the .40-70 as well as the .40-65. My 81 year old bones are starting to tell me to leave the .50 rest :D
I will start shooting more on this side of the big muddy this coming season if the Chines bug lets us go to matches again and I will spent time at those ranges you mentioned above as well as Alma Michigan. I like shooting that monthly silhouette match. Fine bunch of folks to shoot with there.

[Don McDowell]

Bob for midrange and silhouette the 40-70 really shines once you get a load your rifle will shoot consistently. That's the rub on the 40-70 that was mentioned even back in the day when it was the new hotrod.
It will serve to 1000 but as I said before it wouldn't be my first choice.
If you don't have one yet, best to find and lock down at least 200 brass for it before the build starts.
1 1/2 powder will be your friend in that chamber.

[doccash]

How does all of this apply to the 40-70 wcf in the 1886 Winchester or are we talking apples and oranges?

[veeman]

Nobody said anything about a winchester 1886. They're talking about long range single shots I believe.

[doccash]

Nobody said anything about a winchester 1886. They're talking about long range single shots I believe.
Was the 40-70 wcf never chambered in a single shot ?

[Don McDowell]

Even if Winchester did chamber the 40-70wcf in the 85's pretty good chance it had a 1-20 twist and shot a 300 gr bullet, making it not to good for long range applications. It was a short range, by today's standard, hunting rifle.

[tallwalker]

During the Sandy Hook trials in 1879, the army tested the 500gr 45-70 @1375fps with hits at 3200 yards for penetration tests. The story has always impressed and amazed me. Of course that was black powder - totally different animal. I am not very competitive at it but during matches I have managed a few bullseyes at 600yds with my 45-70 Sharps and compressed BP, Shaver soule long range sights, 500gr postals.

Interesting read for those that have never seen it: http://usarmorment.com/pdf/45-70.pdf


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Ban]

I read early accounts of this cartridge lobbed to 2k+ yds. I wouldn't have a chance in....of hits that far.

[Boz330]

Bob for midrange and silhouette the 40-70 really shines once you get a load your rifle will shoot consistently. That's the rub on the 40-70 that was mentioned even back in the day when it was the new hotrod.
It will serve to 1000 but as I said before it wouldn't be my first choice.
If you don't have one yet, best to find and lock down at least 200 brass for it before the build starts.
1 1/2 powder will be your friend in that chamber.

It seems that some guns can drive you absolutely crazy trying to find a load.
I was thinking Starline 40-70 brass but have not tried finding any yet. I was offered a bunch of Hornady 405 brass by a friend, (free) but I haven't compared dimensions to see how close it is.
I have a 16 twist Shiloh in 40-50 that I was going to have reamed to 40-70.


For 600 and even the 1K the .40-70 will do the job. I'm starting to go back to the .40-70 as well as the .40-65. My 81 year old bones are starting to tell me to leave the .50 rest
I will start shooting more on this side of the big muddy this coming season if the Chines bug lets us go to matches again and I will spent time at those ranges you mentioned above as well as Alma Michigan. I like shooting that monthly silhouette match. Fine bunch of folks to shoot with there.

I hope to run into you this summer.
I'm looking to get an ankle replacement sometime this coming year, which may throw a monkey wrench into my shooting. I hope to hold out till Aug but pain may over ride that thought. The Doc says 6 weeks recovery before I can get around reliably. When I had my knees done I was deer hunting 3 weeks after the first one. Apparently ankles are a little more finicky. This getting old stuff isn't for Wusses. I had way too much fun when I was in my 20s but I wouldn't change a thing, just time to pay the Piper.

Bob

[Don McDowell]

Bob, that Hornady brass would need to be trimmed back a bit, there are folks that are doing that. I got ahold of a bunch of Jamison brass, wishing I would of got more before they closed up, but have enough to shoot a pretty long match, so I'm in pretty good shape. Also have a good selection of 405 brass, I could sacrifice for this rifle if need be, but hopefully I don't have to get into it, as fodder for the Winchester 95 is almost unobtainable any more.
I had trouble with mine finding a bullet that would stay stable even in light breeze at 300 and beyond, except for a 360 gr patched bullet. Had Brooks build me a dual diameter bullet with a length about halfway between that 360 and a 410 money bullet. It comes in just a bit over 400 grs cast from 20-1 and shoots very well all the time, especially like it cast 16-1.
I too hope to meet and shoot with you sometime. This black death China special sure has stuff buggered up. Good luck with the ankle replacement. This getting older sure ain't for sissy's.

[Lead pot]

Well Bob, Like Don said "This getting older sure ain't for sissy's" is true :D.
When I retired I had shoulder reconstruction bad enough that they had to take a chunk off the collar bone to shorten it I asked the Doc how soon can I paddle my Kayak down the Yukon river in Alaska? he said in about 5-6 months. I said I'm leaving in 6 weeks, he just looked at me and shook his head and said I don't think so. Well going to rehab I could not lift my arm much above my waist to put a golf T in the pegboard started me to think maybe he was right LOL. Well a month and halve later I sent him a letter from Eagle Alaska.
So hang in there and grid your teeth when things get rough. :)

The .405 Hornady brass is good brass for the .40-70 but it needs work to chamber, especially in a Shiloh. It is long but that is an easy fix by trimming it. The hardest part is the base of the brass. When I ran my first batch through a full length sizing die it would chamber about a 1/4" short from going all the way in. I cut off the base of the sizing die 3/16" and put a electrical box knockout on top of the press ram and pushed the case all the way home but I had to use a 5/16" brass drift pin to drive it from the die. It took time to go through a couple hundred cases but it got the job done.
Then the next issue was good and bad and that was the neck wall of that brass was thick because it is designed for smokeless loads for the .405 win, it was to thick for a GG bullet. It would not chamber unless the loaded round was reduced using a taper crimp die till the round would chamber. This was not good for getting the accuracy from the rifle.
Instead of turning the necks down to thin them I mostly shoot a PP bullet anyway and this brass is ideal for this use. No sizing needed for that to hold a bore diameter PP bullet.

BA makes a run of .40-70 brass now and then from .30-40 Kraig. I got 400 of those cases back in 99 and I still have most left and the once that are gone was damaged when compressing the powder catching the case mouth or lost, none from puling apart.

Kurt

[one-eyed fat man]

I had way too much fun when I was in my 20s but I wouldn't change a thing, just time to pay the Piper.

Bob

Upon much study and reflection, I have come to this conclusion:

272075

[Gobeyond]

Are you talk in’ black powder? That’s amazin’

[Boz330]

I hadn't looked for 40-70 brass in awhile, but now I see that it isn't all that easy to come by like you guys pointed out. The last time I looked, it seemed like it was easy enough to find but not now. I have a lathe that could be used to trim the 405 brass but that would be a PIA for several hundred pieces.
I have a Shiloh in 40-50SS and I was thinking it would be easy enough to send it back to them and have a 40-70 reamer run into the chamber. Now it appears that the brass is the bigger issue.
I appreciate all of the replies. I knew there would be good info here and there was. I have an appointment with the eye Doc in a couple days. I'll know then if the problem is glasses or cataracts.

Bob

[Don McDowell]

Actually you might be better off to have them either ream it to 40-65, or 40-70 bn. The 40-65 propably the best bet, as it really doesn't give up much to the 40-70 ss.

[Lead pot]

Bob,
I would pick up those Hornady .405 cases. I don't know if Hornady will make another run of them or not. That is fine bass for the .40-70.
Trimming those cases is not a problem with one of these little saws https://www.harborfreight.com/2-in-mini-bench-top-cut-off-saw-62136.html You can go through 100 cases using this little mewl for trimming cases. I have trimmed several thousand cases and still use the same blade. This saw is a little higher in cost since I got one but it out performs all trimmers I have.
Just make your self a hard wood block with a V or round bottom and lay the case on it till the rim makes contact with the block and cut.
I used to trim using my lathe but I saw this little saw in Harbor freight and I picked it up. It has worked fine for several years.

272449272450272451
https://www.harborfreight.com/2-in-mini-bench-top-cut-off-saw-62136.html

[Road_Clam]

I take my Pedersoli Sharps 45-70 out to 600 yds weekly at my gun club. My bullet of choice to get there is the 535 Postel with 65 gr of Swiss 1.5F and a .030 poly wad. Typically scoring the 7,8,9 rings (and im not that good of a shooter, still learning BPCR).