Load development for a Charter Arms Bulldog

[Led]

I'm working up a defense load for my Bulldog. Below is the first chronograph data I've collected.

Weapon is the standard blackened Bulldog in 44 special obviously.

First load: 5 round string, Rimrock 185g, SWCHP, 7.7g Unique, AV 768 ft/s, SD 4 ft/s, APF 142, 242 Ft/Lbs energy.

Second load: 10 round string, 200g RNFP, 7.0g Unique, AV 766 ft/s, SD 22 ft/s, APF 153, 260 Ft/Lbs energy.

I prefer the 200g load over the 185g load. The barrel doesn't seem long enough to to take advantage of the extra .7g powder. The data seems to confirm that theory. Cracking 800 fps with the 200 grain load is the target and I would appreciate recommendations. I've tried 240g and 250g loads and the recoil is just to harsh in such a small gun. I even tried the old standard of 7.5g Unique behind a Keith 250g SWC, which according to Brian Pearce the Bulldog can handle, but the recoil, oh my.

Thanks,
Stephen

[Groo]

Groo here
Given the weight and barrel length.
I would think a low speed full wadcutter in the 200 to 240 gr range would fill the bill...
600 fps [true] would be enough for closer range 10 /15 yds.
You are trading weight for speed [ you have a short barrel] so , a flat nose to cause damage and slower speed to reduce blow through.
Ps. in a 44 spec ,,, 200 gr at 800fps could be used for deer inside 35 yds or so.....

[cabezaverde]

My two are older and have .432 throats.

If yours is a newer one, do you know what they measure?

[Winger Ed.]

I'd pick the boolit ya want to use, and load the max. charge for it out of a manual.

Without splitting hairs, or overthinking this:
I figure any unarmored target hit with anything in .44 cal. will seriously reconsider their present course of action and location.

[Led]

I have not measured the throats.

I'm thinking the Rimrock 200g DEWC might be the best choice. It would be interesting to see if a faster powder would squeeze a little more velocity out of the Charters short barrel.

Later,
Stephen

[pettypace]

Here are predicted terminal ballistics for your 200 grain load:

272012

You have more penetration than the law allows and no more wound mass than a .38 Special target wadcutter from a J-frame snubby.

Turn that same bullet around and load it base-forward like a wadcutter at the same 766 f/s and it should look more like this:

272013

Now, you have all the penetration you need, but 50% more wound mass and more energy on target. If recoil is an issue, you could drop 100 f/s off the velocity and still have a fierce defense load.

[Led]

This is very interesting data. I think the 200g wadcutter will be my boolit of choice. Out of curiosity what does a standard 9mm ball round look like on your graph and what do you mean "more than the law allows"?

Based on the data provided dropping a bit of velocity might be the ticket. I like to practice with the ammo I carry. Having the ability to shoot 100 rds on the range and still being able to feel my hands is appealing.

Edited to add, what would the ballistics look like at 700 ft/s with a 200g wadcutter?

Thanks,
Stephen

[smkummer]

I have the 4” target bulldog. I am either shooting the 245 Lyman round nose or 245 Keith. I use either a max load from Lyman’s 49th of 700X or bullseye. I am guessing 750-800 as my chrono is on the blink. 231 would also be a good powder in your 3” gun? I can stand those loads but your absolutely right, the skeeter load would be painful. I believe I shot one cylinder load of those and that was enough.My gun shoots to the sights, of course I could adjust the sights with my target model. I may have to try some minimum cowboy loads with a 200 FP, to see what fun I am missing.

[pettypace]

This is very interesting data. I think the 200g wadcutter will be my boolit of choice. Out of curiosity what does a standard 9mm ball round look like on your graph and what do you mean "more than the law allows"?

Based on the data provided dropping a bit of velocity might be the ticket. I like to practice with the ammo I carry. Having the ability to shoot 100 rds on the range and still being able to feel my hands is appealing.

Edited to add, what would the ballistics look like at 700 ft/s with a 200g wadcutter?

Thanks,
Stephen

Here's what 9mm ball might look like:

272031

All I meant by "more penetration than the law allows" is that anything over 18" is beyond the FBI recommendation of 12" to 18" of penetration in validated 10% ordnance gelatin.

And here's the 200 grain wadcutter at 700 f/s:

272032

The 37 grams of wound mass is about all you can get from a non-expanding .44 and about the same as the best expanding 9mm or .38.

[Led]

Thanks for the input pettypace. I think I've found the bullet and velocity I'll be using. 200g at 700 ft/s will be tame enough to practice with often. The best load in the world doesn't mean anything if you can't hit the target and I don't have to worry about a .44 not expanding.

Edited to add, I find it interesting that 65 ft/s less velocity only reduced penetration by an inch.

Thanks,
Stephen

[Old School Big Bore]

I got my first Bulldog, a 3", in '75 and added the 4" Target Bulldog soon afterward. I worked with everything available at the time, from the Lee 116 gr WC (!) to their 255 gr SWC, including the 208 WC, 210 SWCHP and 210 SWC, and including a 429421. I went fairly hot with some of the development, and found that the 3" Bulldog likes to keyhole when you get too heavy a boolit going too fast; I theorize that the muzzle flip exerts a vertical rotation to the departing slug. I worked mostly with Bullseye and Unique. Two of the 116s over 6.0/Unique was a fairly tractable load and the "two holes for the price of one" won me a lot of bets against my agency's range creeps who were in the habit of sharking beer money out of rookies... The only jacketed bullet I ever got to expand worth beans was the (sadly discontinued) Speer 225 gr 3/4 jacket SWCHP. The similar 240 would almost go fast enough but I ran into the recoil wall with any of the 240s before they would 'work'. When Speer developed the GDHPs, they dropped the JSWCs like crazy girlfriends, but while they were available, I worked that bullet up in the 4" M29 to 10.0/Unique and carried that load forever. I still have a partial box that I load in the 29 when I carry it, and a precious few of the bullets rat-holed. I found out that both Jim Cirillo and Jerry Miculek had worked up that identical load; JM said it was his favorite .44 Mag load, and one year I killed the South Texas Mini-Slam with it - a whitetail, a javelina and a coyote. The fully exposed, butter-soft core just makes this genius bullet outstanding. If anyone still has any of those I'd sure like to buy 'em.
I eventually obtained the said M29 I carried for decades, and recently found a 4" 624 and had to rediscover that despite the N frame, the skinny barrel means the Skeeter loads are on the ragged edge of high-speed controllability and shooter comfort. I had some with 8.0/Unique and a 429421 and after shooting a few in the 624, ended up shooting them out of a pair of 4-5/8" Super Blackhawks and my B92, then loaded some with 7.0/Unique for the 624 instead.
When I warm the Bulldogs up lately, I use the Lee 208 WC, the Lee 180 RN, the RimRock 200 DEWC or similar over about 4.0-4.5/231. This shoots pretty mildly. But if I were going to carry either of my Bulldogs 'seriously' again, I would work with 231, 700X or TiteGroup, in the neighborhood of five-ish grains, and the M-P HBWC out of a fairly soft alloy, inverted 'cup point' style. The fifteen I put in the 3" Bulldog and its speedloaders when I carry it are of that type. The inverted HWBC shatters the first water jug, splits the second and stops in the fourth, with textbook blossoming of the hollow, and shoots to the sights as well as any other load I've tried in it.
Good luck finding your perfect Bulldog load - Ed <><

[pettypace]

I find it interesting that 65 ft/s less velocity only reduced penetration by an inch.


There's some "rounding" involved in generating the graphs. And different penetration models can easily differ by an inch for the same data. For that matter, bullets from the same load and gun fired into the same block of gello could easily differ by an inch. But in general, changes in velocity don't effect penetration as much as you might expect while changes in bullet weight effect penetration more than you might expect.

BTW, if you're interested in bullet penetration models, grab a copy of Quantitative Ammunition Selection by Charles Schwartz (aka The_Schwartz, here). It's a bargain.

[Forrest r]

Ditch the unique!!!!

Not much velocity in the snubnosed revolvers for the pressures unique creates. Simply put, a lot of pressure/bark for little return. Unique does better in longer bbl's along with having a snap/bite to it in light weight sbubnosed revolvers.

2400 is a better choice, has more of a push to it instead of a crack that makes for a softer recoil while producing excellent results. Haven't done any testing lately, here's the results from my last testing.
https://i.imgur.com/fo57jjU.jpg

I was mainly interested in the top left bullet. The fbi used to use a hp hb swc in their "fbi/38spl loads".
https://i.imgur.com/KNwvR1D.jpg

Buffalo bore has a 158gr (20a/20) hot 158gr load that is supposed to do 1000fps in snubnosed 38spl's.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108

So I cast up some hb swc's/429422's and used a forester hp tool with a 60* center drill (3/16") to put hp's in the cast/pc'd hb swc's.
https://i.imgur.com/FTFbMo6.jpg

BB has a 158gr/1000fps 38spl load, the fbi had a 158gr hp hb swc load. But neither of them hold a candle to a snubnosed bulldog with a 210gr hp hb swc doing 1000fps+.

I've owned/carried/used ca bulldogs since the 80's & have tried a lot of different bullets/loads over the decades. At the end of the day I prefer 180gr to 220gr bullets in them being pushed with 15.5gr to 16gr of 2400.

An excellent bullet for the bulldogs is the lyman 429215, I use the H&G version of that bullet. It's the H&G #142 that casts a 220gr swc gc bullet and a 200gr hp swc gc bullet (bottom left on bullet test picture above).
https://i.imgur.com/QCZLAQr.jpg
Hard to go wrong with these bullets in the bulldogs.
https://i.imgur.com/3DawiR1.jpg

I've done a little testing with different wc's/hbwc's in the bulldog's using several different powders. Sold a bunch of my 44cal wc molds off but I still have these to test with.
https://i.imgur.com/iMopAGs.jpg?3
162gr ='s type 2 button nosed wc
175gr ='s type 1 flush seated wc
220gr ='s hbwc
200gr & 245gr ='s type 3 tapered nosed wc

Of those wc pictured above I like the type 3 wc's the best, easer to find data for & they perform extremely well. That 200gr wc doing +/- 1000fps is a real thumper. That 220gr hbwc turned backwards doing just under 1000fps is impressive also.
https://i.imgur.com/td95NhG.jpg

Something else to keep in mind when you test wc's. They don't have to be crimped in any specific place. When testing those 220gr hbwc's in a S&W 624/target loads. Those bullets got seated flush, top lube groove, bottom lube groove, tumble lubed, 1 lube groove lubed, 2 lube grooves lubed, tl + both lube grooves. And loaded backwards just for the heck of it.
https://i.imgur.com/VorIu2C.jpg

Get some 2400 and never look back.

[winelover]

My two are older and have .432 throats.

If yours is a newer one, do you know what they measure?

My 3 year old Bulldog has .432 throats, as well. Which I prefer, since I also own a Marlin 1894 and a RH with .432 throats. That is where I find the best accuracy. No need to size bullets for each specific firearm.

My standard practice load for the 2.75" Bulldog is 7.0 grains of Unique with a 240 grain cast bullet. Yesterday, I went out back and shot 50+rounds. Some at 20-25 yards, using CT laser grips, DAO. Was surprised by the accuracy at the longer distances..........just as accurate as a longer barrel. The laser grips make all the difference.

I don't care for the lighter bullets. Tried 200 grain Saeco RNFP. They shoot too low for fixed sights. I can't tell the difference in recoil, either. Yeah you can push them faster, due to increased powder, which translates to increased recoil. E=MC squared.

I never carry cast for social work. However, I do load cast for around the acreage. This piece is my bow hunting backup. Usually, it's loaded with 240-265 RNFP, over Alliant 2400. I think the recoil impulse is less brutal with the slower powder.


272040



Winelover

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I carry that Bulldog often, it was my backup gun when I was a peace officer. It is a strong gun with a 5 shot cylinder, the cylinder stop notches are cut between the cylinders where the metal is thicker. I however don’t enjoy shooting it too much. I carry my cast RCBS 44-250-K over the minimum load of Bullseye, and this has been my carry load for decades in this gun.

[onelight]

In my 3" gp100 .44 special 4.6 grains of red dot gives 690 FPS with a commercial cast Hi-tek 240 swc that same load in my 45/8 Bisley is 750 FPS . My Bull dog is getting light strikes so I am still looking for a solution to that .
I have replaced springs and hammer and it still light strikes. Any one have any ideas ?

[Old School Big Bore]

I was getting light strikes in both my Bulldogs and installed new springs without solving it, so I installed a couple of flat washers to shim the springs. I had already slicked the innards of both guns and the shims did not increase the pull significantly. Then I did a primer evaluation and found that WLPs were the most reliable. My range .44 spl is all loaded with WLPs and I haven't had a FTF recently. Both guns have shot thousands of training blanks (Speer plastic case w/primer only) without failure despite the cushioning effect of the plastic cases; those were all WLPs. CCIs seemed the hardest.
Then I gained 20 lbs so I could conceal the M29 more easily. By then my holster gun was a 1911 and I wish CA had brought out the .45 ACP Bulldog back then. My EDC is now either an XD45, the 1911, a 625-8-JM, the 624 or my beloved 29.
Lately, though, I have heard that Federals are the easiest to ignite. Presuming you can find any primers, you might want to test any you can obtain against each other. That and shimming your mainspring may solve the problem.
Ed <><

[Good Cheer]

Anyone tested .44 wadcutters for penetration on winter outdoor wear?

[onelight]

I was getting light strikes in both my Bulldogs and installed new springs without solving it, so I installed a couple of flat washers to shim the springs. I had already slicked the innards of both guns and the shims did not increase the pull significantly. Then I did a primer evaluation and found that WLPs were the most reliable. My range .44 spl is all loaded with WLPs and I haven't had a FTF recently. Both guns have shot thousands of training blanks (Speer plastic case w/primer only) without failure despite the cushioning effect of the plastic cases; those were all WLPs. CCIs seemed the hardest.
Then I gained 20 lbs so I could conceal the M29 more easily. By then my holster gun was a 1911 and I wish CA had brought out the .45 ACP Bulldog back then. My EDC is now either an XD45, the 1911, a 625-8-JM, the 624 or my beloved 29.
Lately, though, I have heard that Federals are the easiest to ignite. Presuming you can find any primers, you might want to test any you can obtain against each other. That and shimming your mainspring may solve the problem.
Ed <><
Thanks
I may try shimming the mainspring I have smoothed the insides and tried an extra power mainspring (that broke the transfer bar which I replaced) ww and cci primers both have the problem . My purpose is to carry on occasion so I want it 100% with any primer. Cylinder end play is good so it may be a firing pin issue. I am about at the end of my shade tree smithing ideas.

[Led]

@onelight, Check the headspace on your bulldog. I think you can do it with automotive type feeler gauges in a pinch or buy proper gauges.

@Good Cheer, I'm going to be rolling up a 200g WC load at about 750 ft/s from my bulldog. I'll test it against some water jugs within the next month.

Later,
Stephen

[onelight]

@onelight, Check the headspace on your bulldog. I think you can do it with automotive type feeler gauges in a pinch or buy proper gauges.

@Good Cheer, I'm going to be rolling up a 200g WC load at about 750 ft/s from my bulldog. I'll test it against some water jugs within the next month.

Later,
Stephen
That should be a great bullet for the Bulldog.
I actually tried a cylinder shim kit on it and with the thinnest shim it was to tight :violin:
I would reeealy like it to work I may have to send it in and see if CA can get it working. I bought it used and probably have more in it than if I had ordered a new one. As it is I would not sell it or trade it . So it's mine working out or not.:x

[pettypace]

Anyone tested .44 wadcutters for penetration on winter outdoor wear?

I haven't done any testing, but unless you're throwing those wadcutters, there's no amount of winter wear I'd feel safe behind.

[smkummer]

I believe we all know infamously, son of sam was probably 80% or more effective with most likely store bought Remington or Winchester factory round nose ammo. Has anyone chronoed that load? I am guessing close to 700 FPS with the 246 round nose.

[Old School Big Bore]

I'm gonna follow LEDs lead and do a water jug test on some of the RimRock and my own Lee and MP 44 WCs out of my 3" doggie, if I can find something to approximate 'heavy winter clothing'. I have some drive belt that ATB fibreglas or nylon. So far whatever pistol load I've shot at the rolled up belt has stopped imbedded into the second layer (!). I may be able to drag up an old canvas tarp.
Ed <>><

[35remington]

I will say that wadcutters easily penetrate any amount of clothing.

[MOA]

I just load them up to where they're deadly at 30 feet. In SD mode you'll never feel the recoil.

https://i.postimg.cc/kgLwt4PN/20190524-114641.jpg (https://postimg.cc/Bjc2rJ6t)

https://i.postimg.cc/pXXsw4Bj/20190524-114801.jpg (https://postimg.cc/WtCmr9Cp)

https://i.postimg.cc/qRxGYxhQ/20190524-113047.jpg

(https://postimg.cc/R6qfJfTn)

https://i.postimg.cc/6q6hN4CK/20190524-112854.jpg (https://postimg.cc/XGh5fJ21)

[Led]

(Edited with some correction)

I have new chronograph data from the Bulldog.

First load is a RimRock 200g solid wadcutter, 4.3g Trail Boss, WSP, PMC Brass.

20 round string, Ave 684 Ft/s, ES 72 ft/s, SD 15 ft/s, 207 lbs/ft.

Why trail boss you ask, no real reason, I just wanted to try it and see if I could hit my velocity target of 700 ft/s. The load shot very well and is so close to my 700 ft/s target. The boolit was crimped in the crimp groove which put the slug very deep in the case. Next batch I won't seat as deep and up the charge just a little bit.

Next is a RimRock 185g SWCHP with 7.3 g Trail Boss

9 round string (The chronograph missed one), 778 ft/s Ave, ES 60 ft/s, SD 22 ft/s, 248 ft/lbs.

This load also shot very well and exceeded my velocity target. Recoil on this load was more than the 200g load but still within my tolerance. The RimRock SWCHP has a huge cavity. It would be interesting to see if it would expand at these speeds.

Notes:

Both loads were at 100% load density.
Burn for both loads was nice and clean.

Thanks,
Stephen

[nhithaca]

Great thread
I just bought a 45 ACP Pitbull, all steel nitride finish and recoil with 230 grain ball is brutal! Been a week and right thumb is still sore. Anyone have a suggestion for a medium weight low velocity load for this gun? 200 to 250 lead bullets @ 600+ FPS would I think be ideal. Have a Redding Profile Crimp die for 45AR so bullets can be well crimped regardless of type.

[Led]

Recoil gets out of control fast with the big bore Charters. I'd like to help but I haven't loaded for 45acp in 15 years.

Thanks for joining in.

Stephen

[35remington]

For the 45 ACP, 4 grains of Bullseye or Red Dot if you wish. Will work with the bullet weights mentioned.

At a given velocity, doubling bullet weight increases recoil four times, so it can be seen why increasing bullet weight 25 percent makes a load significantly less pleasant. Lighter bullets do what is needed if the bullet is nonexpanding and well shaped for impact.

[MT Gianni]

Living in SW MT my use of the Bulldog would be 4 legged creatures. I shot the Skeeter load when I owned one and it was accurate @ 25 yards. I didn't shoot it a lot but recoil, twist and second shot recovery were all OK. I prefer a 245 gr + bullet in my 44's.

[RU shooter]

Great thread
I just bought a 45 ACP Pitbull, all steel nitride finish and recoil with 230 grain ball is brutal! Been a week and right thumb is still sore. Anyone have a suggestion for a medium weight low velocity load for this gun? 200 to 250 lead bullets @ 600+ FPS would I think be ideal. Have a Redding Profile Crimp die for 45AR so bullets can be well crimped regardless of type.
Take a look at 45 auto rim data my speer manuals list dat for lower vel. Loads than the non rimmed 45 auto. BTW is the 45 pit bull the same size as the 44 bulldog ?

[Led]

Yes, Pitbull and Bulldog are the same size.

[onelight]

Here is a 45 pit Bull review that shows some of the dimension differences in the 38 , 44 and 45 CA.
https://rifleshooter.com/2015/07/the-charter-arms-pitbull-45-acp-review/

[nhithaca]

Have tried loading 240 and 255 grain 45 Colt bullets in 45ACP brass for the Pitbull and had serious miss fires and light primer strikes. Did use the Redding crimp die to lock down the bullets thinking that the extractors would control head space correctly like a moon clip. Didn't work out.

Then tried loading 180 grain lead SWCs with a 6 grain load of Unique and standard large pistol Winchester primers correctly hand seated. Used fresh single use brass all within minimum length, sized, expanded and seated bullets with Hornady dies on a single stage press and crimped using Hornady taper crimp die to a mouth diameter of 0.472" (more or less standard). Still having light strikes and miss fires but not as bad and all loads fired on second or third try. Have been reloading over 25 years and have never had this many problems with any loads (except for 10mm after reusing brass 10 times with full house loads!). The factory loads I tried did work fine but the intent is to load with a light charge and light to medium weight bullet to lower the recoil in this relatively light weight gun. Any good guesses?

[Led]

I'd suspect the gun not the load. Wolff gun springs makes XP hammer springs for the Bulldog. I'm not sure if it would fit in the Pitbull. A quick email to Wolff could resolve that question. You're other option would be to contact Charter and send the weapon in for service. My Bulldog's barrel was slightly out of time when I got it. It caused point of impact to be left of center. I sent it in and they took care of the problem.

Thanks,
Stephen

[onelight]

Here is some 44 spec data from a 21/2" CA a 3" gp100 and a 45/8 Ruger Bisley. Starline cases , WW primers .
5.2 grains Red Dot . Hi-Tek .430 SNS 200 rnfp , roll crimped in crimp groove . 21/2" , 773 SD 13.1
3" 800 FPS SD 6.8 , 45/8 860 FPS SD 14.6
With a Hi-Tek Summers .430 , 240 SWC 4.6 grains Red Dot , 21/2" 688 FPS SD 14.8 , 3" 690 FPS SD 6.8 , 45/8 759 FPS SD 7.6

[nhithaca]

Thanks, mine too is slightly out of time so I agree, I will send it back to the Factory. The trigger is fairly good on this gun as is so I am hesitant at adding the XP springs.

[WDW44]

I got my first Bulldog, a 3", in '75 and added the 4" Target Bulldog soon afterward. I worked with everything available at the time, from the Lee 116 gr WC (!) to their 255 gr SWC, including the 208 WC, 210 SWCHP and 210 SWC, and including a 429421. I went fairly hot with some of the development, and found that the 3" Bulldog likes to keyhole when you get too heavy a boolit going too fast; I theorize that the muzzle flip exerts a vertical rotation to the departing slug. I worked mostly with Bullseye and Unique. Two of the 116s over 6.0/Unique was a fairly tractable load and the "two holes for the price of one" won me a lot of bets against my agency's range creeps who were in the habit of sharking beer money out of rookies... The only jacketed bullet I ever got to expand worth beans was the (sadly discontinued) Speer 225 gr 3/4 jacket SWCHP. The similar 240 would almost go fast enough but I ran into the recoil wall with any of the 240s before they would 'work'. When Speer developed the GDHPs, they dropped the JSWCs like crazy girlfriends, but while they were available, I worked that bullet up in the 4" M29 to 10.0/Unique and carried that load forever. I still have a partial box that I load in the 29 when I carry it, and a precious few of the bullets rat-holed. I found out that both Jim Cirillo and Jerry Miculek had worked up that identical load; JM said it was his favorite .44 Mag load, and one year I killed the South Texas Mini-Slam with it - a whitetail, a javelina and a coyote. The fully exposed, butter-soft core just makes this genius bullet outstanding. If anyone still has any of those I'd sure like to buy 'em.
I eventually obtained the said M29 I carried for decades, and recently found a 4" 624 and had to rediscover that despite the N frame, the skinny barrel means the Skeeter loads are on the ragged edge of high-speed controllability and shooter comfort. I had some with 8.0/Unique and a 429421 and after shooting a few in the 624, ended up shooting them out of a pair of 4-5/8" Super Blackhawks and my B92, then loaded some with 7.0/Unique for the 624 instead.
When I warm the Bulldogs up lately, I use the Lee 208 WC, the Lee 180 RN, the RimRock 200 DEWC or similar over about 4.0-4.5/231. This shoots pretty mildly. But if I were going to carry either of my Bulldogs 'seriously' again, I would work with 231, 700X or TiteGroup, in the neighborhood of five-ish grains, and the M-P HBWC out of a fairly soft alloy, inverted 'cup point' style. The fifteen I put in the 3" Bulldog and its speedloaders when I carry it are of that type. The inverted HWBC shatters the first water jug, splits the second and stops in the fourth, with textbook blossoming of the hollow, and shoots to the sights as well as any other load I've tried in it.
Good luck finding your perfect Bulldog load - Ed <><

Thanks Ed! Good info I can bet my life on. I wonder how the loads would do in Calibrated Ballistic Gel? I am not equipped to use that recipient for loads, but maybe someone else has, or will? Thanks again!

[racepres]

Thanks Ed! Good info I can bet my life on. I wonder how the loads would do in Calibrated Ballistic Gel? I am not equipped to us that recipient for loads, ut maybe someone else has, or will? Thamks again!

Been eons since I even gave it a Thought...But, I am confident in my very Old, very well used, Bulldog with 240 Speer Swaged SWC's over ~ 4.0 gr of Red Dot... Be a silly thing to Step in Front Of!!!

[WDW44]

That should be a great bullet for the Bulldog.
I actually tried a cylinder shim kit on it and with the thinnest shim it was to tight :violin:
I would reeealy like it to work I may have to send it in and see if CA can get it working. I bought it used and probably have more in it than if I had ordered a new one. As it is I would not sell it or trade it . So it's mine working out or not.:x

The older ones were GREAT light weight little Loudmouths, the new ones seem to have some problems BUT, I have been in contact with CA and they are always willing to make their guns RIGHT! Call, they will talk with you and advise how to send it in, or what else they may advise. They are GREAT CUSTOMER SERVICE family operation, and their warrenty is above the norm! WDW44

[WDW44]

Been eons since I even gave it a Thought...But, I am confident in my very Old, very well used, Bulldog with 240 Speer Swaged SWC's over ~ 4.0 gr of Red Dot... Be a silly thing to Step in Front Of!!!

Red Dot is good for the forty four, but curious, why do you use a jacketed round? Buying good cast Boolits are just as good and cheaper in most cases. I have cast hundreds of thousands back when I was a young shooter, now I just buy from MATT'S BULLETs. They cast MANY different weights and forms of good ones. I especially like his HBWC, and Wadcutters in general. 4-4.5 grains of Red Dot seems to work very well with them. Take care Ed, WDW44

[WDW44]

Here is some 44 spec data from a 21/2" CA a 3" gp100 and a 45/8 Ruger Bisley. Starline cases , WW primers .
5.2 grains Red Dot . Hi-Tek .430 SNS 200 rnfp , roll crimped in crimp groove . 21/2" , 773 SD 13.1
3" 800 FPS SD 6.8 , 45/8 860 FPS SD 14.6
With a Hi-Tek Summers .430 , 240 SWC 4.6 grains Red Dot , 21/2" 688 FPS SD 14.8 , 3" 690 FPS SD 6.8 , 45/8 759 FPS SD 7.6

GREAT info Mr. Onelight! Those loads show real promise, and I will implement them soon. Thanks for the reply! One aside is, those different guns, with different twist rates, can have a big effect on velocities and accuracy with the same load. Not that that is a big enough deal to make a big deal about. :)

[WDW44]

(Edited with some correction)

I have new chronograph data from the Bulldog.

First load is a RimRock 200g solid wadcutter, 4.3g Trail Boss, WSP, PMC Brass.

20 round string, Ave 684 Ft/s, ES 72 ft/s, SD 15 ft/s, 207 lbs/ft.

Why trail boss you ask, no real reason, I just wanted to try it and see if I could hit my velocity target of 700 ft/s. The load shot very well and is so close to my 700 ft/s target. The boolit was crimped in the crimp groove which put the slug very deep in the case. Next batch I won't seat as deep and up the charge just a little bit.

Next is a RimRock 185g SWCHP with 7.3 g Trail Boss

9 round string (The chronograph missed one), 778 ft/s Ave, ES 60 ft/s, SD 22 ft/s, 248 ft/lbs.

This load also shot very well and exceeded my velocity target. Recoil on this load was more than the 200g load but still within my tolerance. The RimRock SWCHP has a huge cavity. It would be interesting to see if it would expand at these speeds.

Notes:

Both loads were at 100% load density.
Burn for both loads was nice and clean.

Thanks,
Stephen

GREAT INFO Stephen! Thanks, it will be put to use in my 2 1/2 Dog and 4.2" Target dog too!

[Bass Ackward]

I use a trick I learned as a kid. Hollow point expansion can be …. expedited and exaggerated by melting a candle and filling the hole. Then just scrape level with a knife. Creates hydraulic pressure on impact that NO lead hardness can restrain regardless of velocity.

[racepres]

Red Dot is good for the forty four, but curious, why do you use a jacketed round? Buying good cast Boolits are just as good and cheaper in most cases. I have cast hundreds of thousands back when I was a young shooter, now I just buy from MATT'S BULLETs. They cast MANY different weights and forms of good ones. I especially like his HBWC, and Wadcutters in general. 4-4.5 grains of Red Dot seems to work very well with them. Take care Ed, WDW44
Oh My No.. The Speer240 Swaged is a Soft Lead, boolit!! I figger the Soft is a Plus in this Loading... I guess I could cast dead soft 240's...But, I have these, and they work really Well. When I shoot for Fun..I use the Lee 200RF, cast soft...andStill do Not have a Favorite Load.. Prolly work with BE-86 and certainly New Nitro-100 NF.. Luckily, I like Nitro 100 NF Better than Trail Boss for leisurely loadings!! But, Not as Much as Red Dot, which is Unobtainium just now around here

[FergusonTO35]

The older ones were GREAT light weight little Loudmouths, the new ones seem to have some problems BUT, I have been in contact with CA and they are always willing to make their guns RIGHT! Call, they will talk with you and advise how to send it in, or what else they may advise. They are GREAT CUSTOMER SERVICE family operation, and their warrenty is above the norm! WDW44

All my late model Charters have been great. I did have a .22 Pathfinder for a bit that would shoot and function perfectly but was bulging brass more than I cared for. Contacted CA about it and they sent me a shipping label. Door to door was only two weeks or so. The new cylinder didn't bulge brass as much but I ended up trading the revolver on a rifle not long after.

[pettypace]

Two of the 116 gr WCs over 6.0/Unique was a fairly tractable load and the "two holes for the price of one" won me a lot of bets against my agency's range creeps who were in the habit of sharking beer money out of rookies...

Although usually dismissed as a gimmick, IMHO a two-projectile load from a .38 or .44 snubby has potential far beyond winning bets for beer money.

Old School Big Bore doesn't say what velocity he was getting from those two 116 grain wadcutters. But at 750 f/s they should be just shy of meeting the FBI's 12" minimum penetration goal. Trade the 116 grain WCs for NOE's 150 grainers and 625 f/s should give 12" penetration in 10% ordnance gelatin. And if you're still worried about marginal penetration, just use a stubby little "as cast mushroom" (https://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-150M) instead of the wadcutter and bare gel penetration will be well within FBI specs.

The downside is that recoil will be all that you (or your Bulldog) will want and you probably won't win any 50 yard slow fire matches with the load.

So, why bother? Especially why bother when a 220 grain HBWC at 650 f/s (and loaded as intended) will give 18" of penetration, as much wound mass as the classic "FBI load," deliver all the accuracy your Bulldog has to offer, and be gentle enough on both you and the gun to make practice almost enjoyable.

It's worth bothering because two projectiles could give you as much wound mass as the best JHP (assuming the JHP works as intended) as well as an increased probability (that has not been well-considered or appreciated) of hitting something "vital."

[LouisianaMan]

Although usually dismissed as a gimmick, IMHO a two-projectile load from a .38 or .44 snubby has potential far beyond winning bets for beer money.

Old School Big Bore doesn't say what velocity he was getting from those two 116 grain wadcutters. But at 750 f/s they should be just shy of meeting the FBI's 12" minimum penetration goal. Trade the 116 grain WCs for NOE's 150 grainers and 625 f/s should give 12" penetration in 10% ordnance gelatin. And if you're still worried about marginal penetration, just use a stubby little "as cast mushroom" (https://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-150M) instead of the wadcutter and bare gel penetration will be well within FBI specs.

The downside is that recoil will be all that you (or your Bulldog) will want and you probably won't win any 50 yard slow fire matches with the load.

So, why bother? Especially why bother when a 220 grain HBWC at 650 f/s (and loaded as intended) will give 18" of penetration, as much wound mass as the classic "FBI load," and all the accuracy your Bulldog has to offer?

It's worth bothering because two projectiles could give you as much wound mass as the best JHP (assuming the JHP works as intended) as well as an increased probability (that has not been well-considered or appreciated) of hitting something "vital."

Hello again from "down on the bayou"!! Have long enjoyed and profited from your discussions of wound mass and penetration, dual projectiles, and kindred considerations. What would you think of combining a 150g and a 116g at 700-ish? Think they'd hit fairly close to the same POI, with the 150 penetrating well and the 116 providing enhanced disruption?

I share your sense that the terminal effects of a dual projectile load merit closer examination (or perhaps just broader publication of existing studies). It stands to reason that 2 bullets striking some distance apart will double the chances of hitting something critical, assuming adequate penetration. I also suppose that the nearly simultaneous impact of two bullets in close proximity to each other could expand the permanent wound cavities, as overlapping stretch cavities and wound tracks could engender a lacerating effect. It's my understanding that buckshot commonly inflicts that type of damage, and automatic weapons certainly can do so.

While I'm guessing, supposing, and hypothesizing, here's another idea: even if "hydrostatic shock" per se does not occur at handgun velocities, it's apparent that the human body's network of nerve endings, synapses, etc., provides an infinite range of possible reactions to being struck by gunfire. Sometimes the guy seems bulletproof, apparently not reacting to gunshot wounds; others seem to have been struck by lightning and flung wildly about; others sledgehammered to the ground; others cowed by feeling or seeing the results of a bullet impact. Oft-discussed in recent years is the "psychological stop," but perhaps a differing nervous effect is triggered in some cases, amplifying one's involuntary reaction to being hit beyond the known mechanisms of blood loss, organ or skeletal damage, or CNS damage. Is this the secret of the double- or triple-tap, the oft-remarked enhanced effects of multiple impacts in rapid succession?

Simply put: could the use of dual-projectile loads increase the chances of overloading the shootee's nervous system with multiple simultaneous "RED ALERT! warnings," thereby essentially "shocking" him into incapacitation, confusion, hesitation, or retreat? Freeze or flight instead of fight?

Put still another way: is the "psychological stop" necessarily a result of conscious or subconscious response to being shot? Or is it, in some cases, a result of the type of sensory overload I've attempted to describe here? Could a rapid 5-shot burst (with 10 impacts) from a snubbie thus create a "nervous reaction" resembling a mag dump of 10-15 rounds of ball ammo from an automatic of similar caliber?

[pettypace]

Lots of good questions, Louisiana Man -- but most above my pay grade. Bullet penetration and wound mass (by MacPherson's recipe) are about as far as I'm willing to venture into the morass of the stopping power debate.


What would you think of combining a 150g and a 116g at 700-ish? Think they'd hit fairly close to the same POI, with the 150 penetrating well and the 116 providing enhanced disruption?

Dunno! But the POI part could be easily tested -- especially if one of the bullets cut a cleaner hole so you could tell which hit where. As for "enhanced disruption," I suspect there might not be any. Some of Fackler's wound profiles show massive permanent cavities with pieces of "Detached Muscles" within -- but only for high energy rifle bullets with serious expansion, fragmentation or yaw. His only multi-projectile wound profile (#4 buck at 1350 f/s) shows no "Detached Muscles" and it looks to me that he intended to show the "Permanent Cavity" as only the actual path of individual projectiles. Maybe hard, sharp-edged wadcutters would lacerate stretched tissue where soft, round shot slips by. But in Clear Ballistic gel I never saw any evidence of that. Even when video clearly showed a beer can sized temporary cavity, the final wound tracks from two-projectile .38 and .44 WC loads looked like they were made with knitting needles.


Simply put: could the use of dual-projectile loads increase the chances of overloading the shootee's nervous system with multiple simultaneous "RED ALERT! warnings," thereby essentially "shocking" him into incapacitation, confusion, hesitation, or retreat? Freeze or flight instead of fight?

Dunno this either. But MacPherson (in Bullet Penetration) hypothesizes that there should be some "adequate" amount of wound mass required to incapacitate an attacker with a "non-vital" wound. He pegs this at about 40 grams based on a less-than-convincing argument involving the Thompson-LaGarde tests on beef critters in 1904. But MacPherson clearly states that if 40 grams isn't enough, then it might take a lot more to incapacitate a determined attacker.

For perspective, 40 grams of wound mass is about what you might get from the highly regarded .38 Special FBI load or the best 9mm JHPs. It's also about the same as a heavy .44 WC at modest velocity from a Bulldog without straining shooter or gun. A two projectile load of 150 grain WCs might gain 10-15% in wound mass at the expense of reduced penetration with increased recoil and wear and tear on the Bulldog. Again, if marginal penetration is the concern, a slightly rounded bullet shape (like Accurate Mold's 43-150M) solves that problem with even more wound mass.


Could a rapid 5-shot burst (with 10 impacts) from a snubbie thus create a "nervous reaction" resembling a mag dump of 10-15 rounds of ball ammo from an automatic of similar caliber?

I'm not sure about the "nervous reaction" part. But there can't be anything good on the wrong end of a cylinder full of two-projectile loads from a Bulldog. The total calculated wound mass from the cylinder full of .44 WCs shown below is about 220 grams -- enough more than the 160 gram wound mass from a 12 gauge slug to provide food for thought.

https://rewebster.org/pics/Bulldog_Target_small.jpg

[26Charlie]

I bought my 3" Bulldog back in the 80's, and have not shot it at anything but paper targets at 50 feet indoor range. Due to it's light weight I used loads with cast bullets around 200 gr. Velocity around 750 fps. The rifling looked shallow to me, so i favored 429215, thinking the gas check gave it more grip on the rifling. Groups were very satisfactory.
The Bulldog is a pocket pistol. S&W then came out with the 696 3" in .44 Special, which is a belt pistol. I did use 250 grain loads in that gun, the recoil not being so snappy due to its heavier weight.

[WDW44]

My two are older and have .432 throats.

If yours is a newer one, do you know what they measure?

My Hammerless 2.5" (2024 model year) has .4312 throats it seems, and the bore is .4307 I load .431 sized boolits and like the results so far...

WDW44

[WDW44]

Lots of good questions, Louisiana Man -- but most above my pay grade. Bullet penetration and wound mass (by MacPherson's recipe) are about as far as I'm willing to venture into the morass of the stopping power debate.



Dunno! But the POI part could be easily tested -- especially if one of the bullets cut a cleaner hole so you could tell which hit where. As for "enhanced disruption," I suspect there might not be any. Some of Fackler's wound profiles show massive permanent cavities with pieces of "Detached Muscles" within -- but only for high energy rifle bullets with serious expansion, fragmentation or yaw. His only multi-projectile wound profile (#4 buck at 1350 f/s) shows no "Detached Muscles" and it looks to me that he intended to show the "Permanent Cavity" as only the actual path of individual projectiles. Maybe hard, sharp-edged wadcutters would lacerate stretched tissue where soft, round shot slips by. But in Clear Ballistic gel I never saw any evidence of that. Even when video clearly showed a beer can sized temporary cavity, the final wound tracks from two-projectile .38 and .44 WC loads looked like they were made with knitting needles.



Dunno this either. But MacPherson (in Bullet Penetration) hypothesizes that there should be some "adequate" amount of wound mass required to incapacitate an attacker with a "non-vital" wound. He pegs this at about 40 grams based on a less-than-convincing argument involving the Thompson-LaGarde tests on beef critters in 1904. But MacPherson clearly states that if 40 grams isn't enough, then it might take a lot more to incapacitate a determined attacker.

For perspective, 40 grams of wound mass is about what you might get from the highly regarded .38 Special FBI load or the best 9mm JHPs. It's also about the same as a heavy .44 WC at modest velocity from a Bulldog without straining shooter or gun. A two projectile load of 150 grain WCs might gain 10-15% in wound mass at the expense of reduced penetration with increased recoil and wear and tear on the Bulldog. Again, if marginal penetration is the concern, a slightly rounded bullet shape (like Accurate Mold's 43-150M) solves that problem with even more wound mass.



I'm not sure about the "nervous reaction" part. But there can't be anything good on the wrong end of a cylinder full of two-projectile loads from a Bulldog. The total calculated wound mass from the cylinder full of .44 WCs shown below is about 220 grams -- enough more than the 160 gram wound mass from a 12 gauge slug to provide food for thought.

https://rewebster.org/pics/Bulldog_Target_small.jpg

So GLAD to have found this post! I am working up a load for my C.A. 2.5" Bulldog using 2-150 grain wadcutters stacked. I have pondered 4.5-5.0 Unique for starting out, and crimping in the top grease groove, but now will have to consider Red Dot as an alternative. I'll try to get a few loaded, and tested for pressure and velocity as soon as I can and report back on results. May be a little while as my loading bench is in the status of updating. It's almost 45 years old and made from a residual grocery store produce table from the mid 50's!

I will also try this loading in 44mag cases in my S&W 2.75" M69 L-frame.

BOOM BOOM could be an old strppers name, or the joy of a 44 special shooter!

[WDW44]

My two are older and have .432 throats.

If yours is a newer one, do you know what they measure?

My Hammerless 2.5" (2024 model year) has .4312 throats it seems, and the bore is .4307 I load .431 sized boolits and like the results so far...

WDW44

[WDW44]

I use a trick I learned as a kid. Hollow point expansion can be …. expedited and exaggerated by melting a candle and filling the hole. Then just scrape level with a knife. Creates hydraulic pressure on impact that NO lead hardness can restrain regardless of velocity.

I like the thinking. I use 216 Grain HBWC from MATT's Bullets. I now load them in Magnum brass at 44 Special velocities (750-900fps) for my 2.75" EDC S&W Model 69. If they do open up then BOOM BOOM ought to be VERY effective!

[Abert Rim]

The Lee 429 214 SWC mold arrived yesterday. Hope to get some loads worked up to test soon from the 2.5-inch 2024 Bulldog.

[pettypace]

The Lee 429 214 SWC mold arrived yesterday. Hope to get some loads worked up to test soon from the 2.5-inch 2024 Bulldog.

Loaded nose-forward to 650 f/s that bullet should penetrate about 23" in bare gel with about the same (MacPherson) wound mass as a target wadcutter from a .38 snubby. Loaded base-forward to 650 f/s the same bullet should penetrate about 18" with about the same wound mass as the .38 Special +P "FBI load" from a 4" barrel.

Loading to 850 f/s will increase wear and tear on both you and your Bulldog without much value added to terminal effectiveness.

[Tall]

Thanks for the input pettypace. I think I've found the bullet and velocity I'll be using. 200g at 700 ft/s will be tame enough to practice with often. The best load in the world doesn't mean anything if you can't hit the target and I don't have to worry about a .44 not expanding.

Edited to add, I find it interesting that 65 ft/s less velocity only reduced penetration by an inch.

Thanks,
Stephen

I would not use any handloaded ammunition for self defense. It makes you a target for prosecution - not a good thing. Maybe this: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018135510?pid=762039

[MT Gianni]

I would not use any handloaded ammunition for self defense. It makes you a target for prosecution - not a good thing. Maybe this: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018135510?pid=762039

While this is often repeated, so far in the US it has never been brought to trial nor mentioned by prosecutors.

[cabezaverde]

I toured the facility a few years ago. Very impressed with the current owner.

[gwpercle]

Load and carry something you can shoot accurately ...
In a gunfight only hits count ...
Spraying boolits all over the room is worthless .
A 44 Wadcutter at moderate velocity will do quite well .
Gary