The Next Great Ammo Scare

[Fireball 57]

About ten years past, on a forum long ago, a question was asked, "What advances are in the future for ammunition reloading?" I thought maybe cartridge cases would be fabricated with resin impregnated polymer and possibly a static charge to ignite the propellent. A supposed expert/ammunition pundit from a handloading magazine replied, "That's ridiculous! Copper cartridges have been used for a very long time and I (he) see no reason to change something that works!" Well, evidently, he was no expert and was wrong. It has been reported, a company named, Avient is making polymer cartridges with nonreloadable steel bases and primers within the base. Given the primer shortages and dubious political climate, will the ammunition companies, seek cheaper options such as this creating a brass shortage as fewer and fewer shooters are reloading anyway? 9mm range brass sold on a retail online site is now $o.24 US Have a pleasant holiday! Fireball[smilie=s:

[gbrown]

I have no real answer to your query, but I have to believe that the answer is yes. Military is always trying to reduce weight. Think of a pallet of .223 or .50 cal. Maybe a 100 pallets, what would that do for them? I can see that as being a push for what you are suggesting.

[Winger Ed.]

The concept of caseless ammo. has been around a long, long time.
It was first tried without much luck in the 1850s.

The only thing holding it back is nobody has quite figured out a way to make it in a practical way-- 'practical' as in 'cheap'.

Another early version that didn't go far, but looked like it'd be fun to shoot was the 'Jiro Jet'.
Daisy had some .22 air rifle something that had a caseless powder charge too in the 60's, but didn't work out.

[dtknowles]

Caseless ammo has been around for a century. Most really big guns use caseless ammo. Small arms caseless ammo has not caught on because it has little benefit. It has a small benefit for military logistics but that benefit is tiny. It is anathema to reloading. You can't reload what does not exist. I worked with a guy who did analysis for DARPA analyzing liquid propellant guns. No cases just projectiles, injectors and tanks. They used hypergolic propellants so no ignition was required. There are also electro mechanical rail guns with no cases or primers. I have a caseless rifle, it is a muzzleloader but with some redesign it could be breach loaded and you would just use a 209 primer in the breach plug.

I think I could design a semi-auto that used caseless ammo and separate primers.

I think the biggest challenge is making durable caseless ammo. Brass or steel cases when bullets crimped in the neck are pretty robust, hard to damage. Caseless ammo probably would not tolerate rough handling.

Tim

[Thumbcocker]

Actually caseless ammo was around in the Civil war. Pistol ammo that had bp compressed into a pellet with boolit attached and waterproof coatings applied. And no I don't mean combustible paper cartridges.

[Three44s]

When the next “tech tonic shift” happens it will leave civilians in the dust. I predict a completely different platform of hand held weapon system. We the masses will be left out of owning them.

A few geeks might build crude replicas but the government will be scooping them and their creators up like mad and imprisoning them and destroying their copy’s.

Three44s

[Froogal]

The lighter weight cases would have very little effect on the total weight of the cartridge. The "boolit" is where the weight is, and I don't care if it is made of lead or copper, it still has to have some weight or it would not be very effective.

[Texas by God]

H&K did it as recently as the late 20th century for military trials. Voere(I think) had a caseless ammo sporting bolt rifle around the same time. More historical footnotes to join Volcanic and Daisy VL.

[richhodg66]

Didn't Remington experiment with making a rifle that used electricity to ignite the propellent in the rifle instead of a physical primer? I seem to remember reading about it, the "trigger" essentially was just a switch to close a circuit

[richhodg66]

OK, I guess I misunderstood how those Remingtons worked. Found this. https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gear/reviews/a211/1277311/

[Petrol & Powder]

All companies, businesses, corporations, whatever; exist to make one thing and one thing only - MONEY.

If there is profit to be made selling something, someone will sell it.

So as long as people create a demand for the current cartridge casings, those things will exist.

[MUSTANG]

16 Years have moved on since this article was published and we are still discussing the issue: https://www.gun-tests.com/ammo/polymer-cased-223-rem-ar-15-ammo-fantastic-or-just-plastic-2/

[AlHunt]

We need innovation in primers. Everything else, we can make ourselves including black powder if we must. The primer is the weak link.

[DDriller]

We need innovation in primers. Everything else, we can make ourselves including black powder if we must. The primer is the weak link.

Trying to find someone to make a spark plug that will fit in the primer pocket.

[Bwana John]

Hanging around the gun shop in the early 70's the talk was the next big thing was gonna be careless ammo.

If Germany didn't run out of the need for it and run out of money at the same time it just might have been.

Daisy did it in 1961.

[reddog81]

When the next “tech tonic shift” happens it will leave civilians in the dust. I predict a completely different platform of hand held weapon system. We the masses will be left out of owning them.

A few geeks might build crude replicas but the government will be scooping them and their creators up like mad and imprisoning them and destroying their copy’s.

Three44s

One of the key elements of the Heller decision was the fact that handguns are in such “common use” that the DC limitations were unconstitutional. The glaring problem with this is that it anything not in common use can be consider unconstitutional. Any new technology is not in common use and therefore can be restricted. “Common use” is a terrible line in the sand to mark whether something can be owned by us peasants.

[savagetactical]

Didn't Remington experiment with making a rifle that used electricity to ignite the propellent in the rifle instead of a physical primer? I seem to remember reading about it, the "trigger" essentially was just a switch to close a circuit

The Etron X it was a commercial failure . There was a still a primer , it just used electricity to detonate . The military uses the same method for the 20mm Cannon on aircraft.

[abunaitoo]

I shoot caseless ammo in my Chassepot.
Works fine.
I've read that they would paint a coating on it to make it a little water proof.

I remember a while back, the FN P90, started out made for caseless ammo.
HK also tried to use caseless electric ignition ammo in a K11.
One of the problems they ran into was cook off.
It would go off in a hot barrel.
Not good for a military firearm.

[GregLaROCHE]

There are nail guns that use a small propane cartridge to charge a chamber and then ignite it. The explosion drives in the nail. I wonder, if some day that technology will be used in firearms.

[dakotashooter2]

Maybe a firing pin that pierces the primer hole and emits a spark. Instead of a primer a thin membrane would be over the hole. Though one would have to adress the issue of pressure blowback like you get in a pierced primer.

[dtknowles]

A laser to light the powder or primer. If the ammo was caseless this would be easy. With a case you need a transparent window in the primer hole.

Tim

[3006guns]

I still have a box of those .38 special plastic cases made back in the seventies............you know, "plastic with a memory". Each case has an aluminum base, plastic body and uses copper plated, heeled bullets. I have the reloading tool and 200 bullets also, everything a guy needs to sit in a motel room and reload if necessary. It's actually a pretty clever concept, as no resizing is needed. After firing the cases shrink back down to their nominal size, so you reprime, charge powder and seat the bullet.

Only thing is, once you've used up the heeled bullets where do you get more?

Why, a custom mold of course!

The other problem is that I have no idea what the "case life" of this plastic is......might even degenerate with storage.