QuickLoad ??

[BABore]

I'm thinking seriously about getting the QuickLoad 3.1 program. Had a bunch of questions for actual users. My loads are usually worked up with a chronograph.

1. The description says it has a pretty extensive bullet library. Does this include any cast bullets? Can you enter your own cast bullet design or do you need a separate program for that? Assuming it does have cast bullet data, is the alloy/weight changeable?

2. From what people mentioned, on this forum, you can correct a load to actual chronograph data to get better pressure estimates. Is this just an estimate or has anybody compared the value to a real pressure gun reading?

3. How up to date is the cartridge library? Does it include the 450 Marlin, 480 Ruger, 500 S&W, WSM's, etc.

4. Can brand of brass be specified or do you have to input case capacity in grains of water? 45/70 Brass can vary from 4 to 7 grains with a brand change?

5. Can you work up loads with a slower than normal powder? An example would be a 30'06 cast bullet load where you used say RL22 or RL25 to get a full case at lower velocity and pressure.

6. Do you need any of the other programs, from Necco, to make QuickLoad work better with what most of do here. I'm covered on targets and don't wildcat.

7. Finally, how easy is it to use? Could I get rolling right away or do I need a course in interior ballistics first.

[sundog]

Hate to throw a wet blanket on anything, and I know some folks really like this kinda stuff, but personally, I think it's a waste of money. Just one caster's opinion.... sundog

[Bass Ackward]

1. The description says it has a pretty extensive bullet library. Does this include any cast bullets? Can you enter your own cast bullet design or do you need a separate program for that? Assuming it does have cast bullet data, is the alloy/weight changeable?

It has some Lyman and RCBS designs included. The selection is random with some designs that have been discontinued for awhile there while more modern ones aren't. You can enter or modify anything.

2. From what people mentioned, on this forum, you can correct a load to actual chronograph data to get better pressure estimates. Is this just an estimate or has anybody compared the value to a real pressure gun reading?

I have not. But whether it is 100% accurate doesn't matter to me. Just that it tracks and is reproducible. I don't go close to maximum pressures anyway. I just adjust the shot start pressure in the computer program until the pedicted velocity jives with the actual chrono reading. This works as long as you contiune to use the same primer, brand of cases, and bullet hardness / design. If you change one of those, you must repeat the process. Once it jives, it does so with all powders tested in all cartridges so far. I would assume that if you use too light a loads that they don't seal or if you have too wide of a barrel cylinder gap, you may also need to adjust barrel length back to get both velocities to jive. The computer program has no way to account for that. It is strictly volume driven and 100% seal effective. All the extras from bore condition to cases change friction and thus pressure. Velocity is the end result and that is why I adjust.

But if all of a sudden your chronograph velocity is less by 100 to 200 fps from what was predicted, what could that be telling you? Lost seal maybe? Bad ignition? Leading? So if you know what to expect and you don't get it, you can be looking for the problem long before a guy with a chronograph even KNOWS he has a problem. A guy might just pass up the perfect powder just because he needed to adjust his seating depth a little or clean out his case necks a little more. All he sees is a bad group. It shows you how even minute changes in seating depth can alter pressure radically. That's big for me.

3. How up to date is the cartridge library? Does it include the 450 Marlin, 480 Ruger, 500 S&W, WSM's, etc.

All that you mention are there.

4. Can brand of brass be specified or do you have to input case capacity in grains of water? 45/70 Brass can vary from 4 to 7 grains with a brand change?

No. That is part of what you compensate for by adjusting the shot start pressure.

5. Can you work up loads with a slower than normal powder? An example would be a 30'06 cast bullet load where you used say RL22 or RL25 to get a full case at lower velocity and pressure.

Yes. Or you can go the Bullseye route too if you want. Or after you find a load that works, you can ask the computer to find other loads that will produce the same barrel time. Then instead of trying five loads, you can try one grain above and below along with what is predicted. Let's say you shoot 40 grains of IMR4895. It may then recommend the following loads:

46 grains of 3100
45.5 grains of 4831
42.2 grains of RL15 or 4320
39.5 grains of H4895.
38 grains of 3031
36.5 grains of RL10X.
34 grains of 4198.
33.7 grains of H4198.
31 grains of 1680.

This saves major load developnment time and money. Cause barrel time is going to be close to pressure levels. That is especially important for lead if you mix / hardness is failing at say 34,000 psi. But not all pressure levels will be capable of producing the same barrel times and is why not all powders will be mentioned. Of coarse some will be not logical especially for a jacketed bullet like 14 .3 grains of Accurate #5. You then have to use common sense, but the data will be there if you want to use it.

6. Do you need any of the other programs, from Necco, to make QuickLoad work better with what most of do here. I'm covered on targets and don't wildcat.

Nope.

7. Finally, how easy is it to use? Could I get rolling right away or do I need a course in interior ballistics first.

I am not the most computer literate of people. Hell, I can't even post a picture. But I get around in the program enough where I feel comfortable that I can make it work for me. It really helps IF you can understand what the program is supposed to be doing. That's how I learned to adjust it to a particular gun and load. This is certainly better than a load manual is alone. Although they will tell you to verify your loads before use .... blah, blah, blah.

Then after you have your load, you leave that screen up and open Quicktarget. There you hit one button to import data from Quickload and you can see computer trajectory. It will estimate BC for cast bullets, so this is less accurate, but the jacketed is damn close so far.

[Bass Ackward]

Maybe it would help if I posted who I think could best utilize Quickload based on my experience so far.


Who would benifit from Quickload:

A military rifle entheusist or anyone else that has long throats and can't reach the lands with a particular design making seating depth and neck tension critical to pressure.

An accuracy fenatic. And there are more of you out there than you will post.

Anyone who shoots many different guns / rifles. Because you can save your load data to include seating depths and always come back to it exactly. There is no recording information or remembering because it's already there. Everything.

Someone who likes to shoot many different bullet designs. Once you find the barrel time and load for one, you can plug in the same barrel time for several others after that and get close.

Anyone who likes to experiment with new mold designs can run the numbers from Dan's site before he BUYS THE MOLD to see if velocity expectations are reasonable based on HIS HISTORY for pressure and bullet hardness in his gun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyone that has a cartridge for which load data is not readily available. A 9.3 X something comes to mind.

Guys who shoot weaker gun designs that have to worry about pressure. ie, old guns, handguns, lever rifles wanting to operate on their top.

A guy that has access to loading components in his area that he is not familiar with. Ramshot or Vihita Vitouri powders comes to my mind.

A cast bullet shooter that learns at what pressure level his mix fails at in a certain caliber or gun with that brand of lube.

Anyone who simply likes to keep better information without recording it.



Who would not benifit:

A one gun man with popular cast calibers who always shoots factory mold designs. 30-06 comes to mind.

People just interested in the bang.

People with perfect memories.

People that want to do things the old fashioned way.

A close-minded person.

Someone shooting mostly surplus powders unless you KNEW what it was for SURE.

A person that is looking for absolutes. The program is not perfect. It is a tool that will require some thought to derrive full benifit of.

[MGySgt]

What Bass said and more - What I eally like is that after you find one load (pressure) that works well with a specific bullet it is easy to 'try' different powders to see if your velocity goes up or down.

Jan 05 I sent my Sharps repro in to have it re-chambered to 45/90. Lyman 48'th Edition is the only manual I found data in for 45/90. Well guess what - the loads listed are way too high for my repro. Quick Load gave me a good starting point and the second set of test loads were grouping better then I expected the gun to do. Since then I have changed to differnt bullets (cast of course) and let Quick Load tell me what load I should be using. Works everytime.

Where do you get your Cast bullet data from now? RCBS mold in a Lyman manual? Or your LBT, MM, Ballicast, etc bullet?

With quick load you plug in your new numbers (for the bullet) and then adjust your load up or down to meet that pressure and start from there.

Works for me and Bass gave me some good pointers when I started using it. Yes $150 souunds like a lot of money, but not when you consider the amount of powder, primers, and range time you are going to save.

Oh yes - If I had used the starting load in the Lyman manual for my 45/90, it probably would have been ruined. That is $1,000 saved.

Drew

[BABore]

Well Bass, since I fit into most every category of your "Benefits From" list I think I will spend some of my xmas bonus on it

[45 2.1]

Bass-

I don't agree with your reasons for or against why one would need the program. Nice to play with I guess, but past a certain learning point, it is more about finese and what it takes to get this to work with this or that item than anything else.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass-

I don't agree with your reasons for or against why one would need the program. Nice to play with I guess, but past a certain learning point, it is more about finese and what it takes to get this to work with this or that item than anything else.


Well .... that is your opinion. And others need to know it. How long have you used the program?

I answered BAs questions to the best of my ability. I have been talking Quickload for better than a year. And except for you, I have never heard any complaints from people that have purchased the program that I BS'ed em?

Look. Each and every time we mention something here, it is recorded. Others try what is stated. That goes along to develop or hurt an individual's credibility based on the success others find. I try to remember that. And I even point the finger at myself if I later change my mind on an issue or find out I was wrong. Or that I didn't state my position clearly. My only interest is in advancing or encouraging someone else to advance the use of cast bullets. I believe this program does that and economically too if you meet the "who will benifit" list.

Sorry you feel .... cheated. I will help you sell your copy if you would like. Maybe BA would be interested in it. How much do you want for it? Well you guys work that out.

[BABore]

Ah, nothing like two old cogers in a spat. Next thing you know out flys the dentures. :)

Thanks for answering my questions.

45 2.1 I might just be interested in your copy too. Is it the latest 3.1 version?:bigsmyl2:

[45 2.1]

Ah, nothing like two old cogers in a spat. Next thing you know out flys the dentures. :)

Thanks for answering my questions.

45 2.1 I might just be interested in your copy too. Is it the latest 3.1 version?:bigsmyl2:

I said nothing about having or useing a copy of this program. What I did state was that I didn't agree with his reasons for or against why one would need the program. This hobby involves thinking, not copying what someone else has done or said. BTW, all my teeth are still where they came in, no dentures.

[StarMetal]

I have to agree with 45 2.1. After I gained some reloading exprience, alot, I use integrating loads and I've never had a problem...usually good results too. By this late stage in life, for you older reloader, you should know the characteristics of the different powders and have used them in various cartridges. To me this Quickload is like a calculator today, kids today are lost in math without them.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

I said nothing about having or useing a copy of this program. What I did state was that I didn't agree with his reasons for or against why one would need the program. This hobby involves thinking, not copying what someone else has done or said. BTW, all my teeth are still where they came in, no dentures.


Bob,

Watch out Bob. The thinking argument assumes that your thought processes are always correct. Are they?


BA,

You should have more respect son. Bob may be over the hill, but I ain't. :grin:

Joe,

You too. Seems to me if you guys really felt that a computer wouldn't help you, you wouldn't be on the internet. Other than quiveling over price, same thing huh?

[StarMetal]

That being on the internet isn't a good example John. Cheaper to go to a stores website and see what their prices are rather then making a pay call like in the old days. Also you can view products on the pc, can't on the ph....and further more you can order faster over the net then by ph.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

That being on the internet isn't a good example John. Cheaper to go to a stores website and see what their prices are rather then making a pay call like in the old days. Also you can view products on the pc, can't on the ph....and further more you can order faster over the net then by ph.

Joe


Joe,

Well, I think the internet is the best example where all things reside and we choose what and how much we want to read and accept.

I think my point here is made by those that will understand it.

[45 2.1]

Bass-
Watch out Bob. The thinking argument assumes that your thought processes are always correct. Are they?

Always be carefull what you believe John, the things that aren't correct will jump up and bite your face.

You should have more respect son. Bob may be over the hill, but I ain't.

You would do well adhereing to your own advice.

I think my point here is made by those that will understand it.

Hardly!

[MGySgt]

Those of us that can remember it - there use to be a little helpful tool that was like a slide rule - you figured your case capicity, your bullet weight and it would give you reccomended loads. Mainly the Wildcaters used it, and most of us didn't want or need it, there were good solid reloading manuals out there that al lot of us would not sit down at the reloading bench without one, or at least refering to our notes from previous experience with that cartridge.

Quickload, in my humble experience is like a virtual loading manual that will get you closer to what you want in a starting load then any manual out there. Unless of course you used the exact same components that the manaul dictated, then you are limited to what is in that manual, Speer for Speer bullets, Hornady for Hornady bullets, etc. Lyman at least would use different manufactures bullets but only their Cast bullets.

Today with just about any of use able to order 'Custom' molds there is no data available for it. You are taking a SWAG at a starting load by prior experience with that caliber and powder. But as we all know seating depth can make a safe load not safe, or not as high a velocity as we expected.

With Quickload we can get very close to what we are looking for without ever dropping the hammer on a new bullet/powder combination.

Yes it has it limitations, change primer (standard/magnum/brand) and you could be back in that same boat, but you shoot a 3 round group over the chrono and you KNOW what it is doing or not doing.

I still use my Sierra, Hornady, Lyman, Hodgen manuals. But when I want to see - What if? I plug it into Quickload and can actually see it before I even buy the powder. You can even plug the figures in from MM design page so you can see if the new wiz bang bullet you are trying to design will attain the velocity you expect.

Some of out here have been loading a great number of years and while we have an understanding of burn rates, we wouldn't even think of loading something with out checking a realiable source.

For my money Quickload is a TOOL that is well worth the money.

Just this dumb old Marines opinion.

Drew

[45nut]

Those of us that can remember it - there use to be a little helpful tool that was like a slide rule - you figured your case capicity, your bullet weight and it would give you reccomended loads. Mainly the Wildcaters used it, and most of us didn't want or need it, there were good solid reloading manuals out there that al lot of us would not sit down at the reloading bench without one, or at least refering to our notes from previous experience with that cartridge.


Drew
Ahh,,the Powley,,I came across one here at CB. I kinda haven't yet explored the options,but one afternoon I did a few calculations ,vs a few manuals and it came up pretty close. I need to explore what it comes up with for a wildcat I have here,444 case run up a 7mm-08 die no trimming,just a dab of imperial and bump a couple times and she is ready. I had a badly chambered contender tube that was a real pita,sent off a couple formed cases,seated a 140gr NBT on top and the man at On Target Technologies--OTT (http://www.ottllc.com/) took measurements from my cases and cut a graphite blank and EDM'ed my new chamber. NO more problems with that barrel,cases fired now drop right out and the sizing die has just a tiny bit of work. Quite remarkable actually and made a tomato stake into a precision barrel for me.

[StarMetal]

John,

You're full of it, horse hockey that is. I don't understand it, heh....I do believe you're the one that doesn't understand it, sir.

Joe

[drinks]

I do not have Quickload, however, I have friends who have , Load from a Disk, and are pleased with it.
It is $60, not $150 and seems to satisfy a gunsmith and a research scientist.
Is there anyone here who has tried out both?
Is there any real difference?

[Bass Ackward]

Nicely worded post Drew.

Information flow is working. Although not as I was expecting.

For those with major experience in cast shooting all I can offer is that I have read the same things as you, had similar experiences as you, and been at this for over 40 years now. So one would assume that I have developed somewhat of a background in this myself, if not up to the level of others. I understand the comments and the context now from your posts as I believe I possed the same ability to think and interpret before I purchased the program.

To better understand my frustration, I have casting friends that believe that the internet is just about a bunch of old farts that sit around talking about cast instead of out there shooting. Living on old glory days. I get frustrated because I know that they are wrong and would benifit but I can't even get them to try it. And of coarse it is free. They "think" that the internet is nice to play with, but not necessary for success. Their knowledge base affords them the ability to form that opinion. And since this is their opinion, the decision has to respected. As far as they are concerned, it is the right decision for them. At least at this time.

I saved more than the progam cost in less than one year. Less than 6 months actualy. And, instead of thinking, which may not always turn out as we expect, I can see a mathematical projection to be sure. I still must intrepret if the information is logical and applicable, but options are presented that I might not otherwise consider. I have learned more things than I ever expected. And in some cases I changed old opinions. I have broken out of stagnation. Maybe another 20 years of experience and hard knocks would have done the same thing, but do we have that? So I feel that I made the right decision for me.

We all tend to change and adapt as new things are presented, just at different rates. And I don't doubt that this will continue in the future. But this board is not about just one generation. We sometimes forget there are several generations represented. It is they who will obtain decades levels of experience and understanding and success that took us decades to obtain and they will learn it in just a few short months using this board and that program. In some cases we may be able to watch them grow and pass us. But they will have the rest of their lives to advance cast bullets beyond where we have been able to bring it back to from the days when shooting lead was more common place.

My only regret is that I can't get a copy of Quickload to folks to try the program before they shut the door. My real fear is that I won't be eloquent enough to open it again.

[sundog]

BA, not being confrontational, just trying to understand. How is it that you are so adamant about getting everyone to use this software?

I am a programmer/analyst. My job is to convert people processes into code that does work for people. You know what happens? People forget how to do the work or even worse, fail to understand the process, because it's all done for them. Then, when the computer don't work, they don't, because they can't. I can see why some people think QL is neat. It does their work for them. But, at a hunert fifty a throw, it's a bit pricey for someone who doesn't mind doing a little thinking. Help me justify the expense. sundog

[StarMetal]

sundog

Thank you, you explained well what I was trying to say.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

BA, not being confrontational, just trying to understand. How is it that you are so adamant about getting everyone to use this software?


Corky,

When someone starts out that they don't want to be confrontational, it usualy means that I am. I appologize for that.

I don't think for a minute that this software will dumb anybody down. In fact, just the opposite. You still have to think. What this software does is it magnifies the number of things you have to think about once you get passed the fact it has loading data? Things that you don't necessarily remember to consider. It's like a road map of sorts that is applicable to all bullet materials. But many of these can be found nowhere esle for cast.

Many here including both Bob and Joe have recommended the Lyman manual on this board as a good sourse for information. Well this board covers the basics every day. And Quickload goes so far above and beyond that Lyman manual in data that it's like comparing a comic book to a set of encylopedias for informational content. And my intent is not to chide the Lyman manuals.

I also get enough private messages everytime Quickload comes up to know that there are other people here that have questions. And answering them once, beats repeating myself several times individually. If someone was just starting out shooting cast for the first time and used both Quickload and this board, they can be in one year what took me decades out of my life and THOUSANDS of dollars to arrive at. Is that a reason to be adamant? I think so.

[45 2.1]

Same problem with alot of todays kids and math, without a calculator they're HELPLESS. I see this alot with design programs in my industry, they can't do much of anything unless they have a program to do it.

[onefunzr2]

I do not have Quickload, however, I have friends who have , Load from a Disk, and are pleased with it.
It is $60, not $150 and seems to satisfy a gunsmith and a research scientist.
Is there anyone here who has tried out both?
Is there any real difference?


I own LFAD. It only works for rifle. No pistol.

[Finn45]

I'm not too great fan but I use it. Couple of points...



1. The description says it has a pretty extensive bullet library. Does this include any cast bullets? Can you enter your own cast bullet design or do you need a separate program for that? Assuming it does have cast bullet data, is the alloy/weight changeable?

It has some Lyman and RCBS designs included. The selection is random with some designs that have been discontinued for awhile there while more modern ones aren't. You can enter or modify anything.
For this one I have added one extra bullet file, or let's call it boolit file. It has all my own boolits (and tested and tried bullets for comparing purposes) with individual calibrations and weights, so no need to change bullet file when playing around with the program.




4. Can brand of brass be specified or do you have to input case capacity in grains of water? 45/70 Brass can vary from 4 to 7 grains with a brand change?

No. That is part of what you compensate for by adjusting the shot start pressure.
I don't know if I understand above or not, but adjusting case capacity is one of the basic keys of this program. Shot start pressure input changes the estimated pressure value when bullet is supposed to start to move, so it's a operators guess always, maybe educated guess, but just a guess anyway. Case capacity has much greater affection to pressures and velocities and because different brands has different capacities, it has to be editable and it is. I have added new calibers according to case capacity, so I have .45-70FED, 45-70REM etc... Case capacity can be adjusted also directly while playing with certain load, no need to add separate calibers every time. I also have original .45-70CIP and SAAMI versions and additionally few P+ version which has higher max pressures, so hot loads are not showing red on the wall all the time and red works as an indicator when I'm crossing MY line.

QL works best with efficient bottle neck calibers with jacketed and less good with straight walled rifle calibers. Some bottle neck cast loads shows so low pressures, that powder hardly is able to burn in reality. With my 45-70 and cast QL works pretty nicely without cheating it too much with variables, but with light loads and light jacketed it's some what hopeless. Powder simply doesn't burn similar way in every application. Even the Brömel himself admits this and one of his suggestions is to use case capacity as one factor to compensate errors. I know users who edit powder specifications for this, but I like to do it softer way. I have used also weighing factor (powders mass partially added to the projectile mass) and long barrel friction and they both respond well for certain purposes. Of course so does shot start pressure as Bass says.




Then after you have your load, you leave that screen up and open Quicktarget. There you hit one button to import data from Quickload and you can see computer trajectory. It will estimate BC for cast bullets, so this is less accurate, but the jacketed is damn close so far.
The best feature in QuickTarget for me is that I can calculate BC for my own boolits from the trajectory data (drop between two POI's) and it gives me trajectory table that holds true in my local environmental conditions, distance and velocity range. Is that necessary? Maybe not, but it's interesting enough to play with. Works with commercial bullets too of course, with better results than manufacturers often very optimistic BC values.

I don't know Load From a Disk program, but I've understood it is based on existing data? QuickLoad is based on mathematical calculations according to many variables and formulas. As far as I know it doesn't use any existing data, but correction factors and such are of course selected and adjusted so that results hold close to true with some average application. For example it takes barrel dimensions and such as a variable, so also larger bore, not only shorter barrel, acts differently with same load.

Nice toy and useful estimator and even good tool with certain tried and true loads and procedures. Happy and Accurate New Year!

[Bass Ackward]

Sorry, Double post.

[Bass Ackward]

One more way that Quickload can save you money is on the cost of guns. As an example. Let's say that you want to take a 200 grain 30 caliber bullet and run it at 2200 fps. The bullet will set down in some cartridges. But which ones? If you know to expect that your ACWW mix fails at 30,000 psi, then you can run trials. And they all are.

Let's say that you really have your heart set on a 7.62X39.

Will it do it? Not at 30,000 psi. Not at 60,000 psi. Not if you have a 30" barrel. But if you throat it out .200 more you can.

How about a 30 Remington? Nope.

A 30 Herret? Nope

30-30? Close. But not in a lever action and you need a 28" barrel. Then you are limited to only four powder selections that will get you there and you must find accuracy with one of them or sacrifice your goal. And you will have short case life. And you must harden your mix.

How about a 308X1 1/2"? Nope Maybe if you throat out. But you will have to harden your mix.

How about a 308 X 1.75? BINGO Let's check it out. Well there are a few powders that get close to 30,000 psi, but only a few right at 30,000 psi. But if you throat out .150 you can drop to two powders and still chop off 2" of barrel. But if you do, the slower powders will no longer get you to that point. Are you willing to compromise? If you want to add just 2 more inches to 26, you open up several more powder choices. If you want a 20" barrel and don't want to harden your mix to accept higher pressures, we need to keep looking.

We could play that game in any bore diameter too. Any little quirk your heart desires can be tested before you make or buy.

Is this worth anything?

[Bass Ackward]

Reijo,

Thanks for chiming in. I hope you don't mind but I am going to use you as an example here to demonstate a point. If it is not valid, please say so.

<<I don't know if I understand above or not, but adjusting case capacity is one of the basic keys of this program. Shot start pressure input changes the estimated pressure value when bullet is supposed to start to move, so it's a operators guess always, maybe educated guess, but just a guess anyway. Case capacity has much greater affection to pressures and velocities and because different brands has different capacities, it has to be editable and it is. >>

Good point. But I avoid this. Why? I change shot start pressure because I shoot bolt rifles in straight cases mostly and I have enough correction value there that I don't have to play with water in my cases and around my scales. Besides, 20 Remington cases can varry by up to 4 grains of water. So I would have to weigh them all and get an average. Not for me. And besides, I have to adjust shot start pressure for primer anyway, so I kill two moose with one bullet. :grin:

If you think about it, case capacity, shot start pressure, or barrel length can be used to tune data so "computer predicted velocity matches actual chronographed velocity" for a particular load. Then we get into naming problems like: 45-70REMREM? Or 45-70Fed215? I use 458430A or "B". The caliber and bullet weight. Then up under the cartridge load information I say RNFP NRM. This stands for round nose flat point, Norma cases, Remington Magnum Primers. Or RP for Remington pistol. And I only use one brand of cases so that doesn't change I buy in bulk. But every time you buy cases you will have to re-measure them under your system because brass changes even from the same manufacturer. So shot start pressure or barrel length is much easier "for me".

<<QL works best with efficient bottle neck calibers with jacketed and less good with straight walled rifle calibers.>>

Not exactly true! There are two factors here. 100% ignition is more difficult to achieve with a straight cases vs bottle necks. Second, the computer program assumes a perfect world of a complete seal. So any time you back away from engraving, you lose velocity. The question of how much depends on the variables you choose and how well you diagnose problems and reload!

<<Some bottle neck cast loads shows so low pressures, that powder hardly is able to burn in reality. With my 45-70 and cast QL works pretty nicely without cheating it too much with variables, but with light loads and light jacketed it's some what hopeless. Powder simply doesn't burn similar way in every application.>>

Bingo!!!! That is what a reloading manual can never tell you. So what that is telling you is that you might need to think about some filler (even with jacketed) or changing powder speed. Or going to a hotter primer. Each and every time you reload a shell, the computer is going to grade you against perfection. A 100% seal and good ignition. If you don't correct for certain factors, then you get a bad report card in the form of erratic or low chronographed velocities. It is going to teach you about everything. And you can see the results of your work. All you have to do is listen and adjust.

Example: I start with a load in my 458 and I seat into the lands. I get to within 50 FPS of computer projections for velocity without adjustment. The minute that I back off and crimp the bullet pulls away from the leade, I automatically loose 100-200 fps. Why, because I lost seal. Worse velocity shows up if I have chosen componets badly or reloaded poorly. (Please see a couple of posts down adressed to you.)

This is dependent on all the factors that you have to think about to correct it. Larger bullet diameter, softer bullet hardness, heavier bullet, better .... fitting .... bullet .... design, more case neck tension, heavier or lighter crimp, hotter primer, powder speed, filler all factor in. My ability to reload must compete with a computer program that assumes 100%. The better my loads are, the closer I get to the predicted value. When I am satisfied that I can do no better, THEN and only then do I adjust my shot start pressure to match. Sometimes with a light bullet in a straight case, -150 fps is the best I can do. Heavier bullets do better. Why? Better ignition.

[Maven]

All, I don't have strong bias for or against any of the programs named in this thread. I do have the Load From a Disk program, but haven't used it to estimate pressure or velocity (that's what a chrono. is for). However, the capability is there if I wish to make use of it. On the other hand, it doesn't list all cartridges (My version is 3.0, which is a bit dated.), all bullets or all powders. Indeed AA 5744 is absent as are any of the milsurps. No milsurps? not a surprise, but omitting 5744 strikes me as odd. As for internal ballistics, I've tried the Powley Computer and have done all the measurements and calculations (for 2 cartridges) that are described in the NRA's "Handloading" book and they are time-consuming. Any ballistic program that can assist in that regard is an asset in my opinion.

Now for a question for QL, LFAD, etc. users: Will such programs allow you to estimate pressure and velocity of oddball powders such as IMR 7383? If they don't, what's wrong with using data from well-known manuals, a chrono. if you have one, and a healthy dose of common sense? I.e., if you substitute H 380 or IMR 4064 data for 7383 for a given bullet, chrono. its velocity, pay strict attention to primer appearance, bolt lift and extraction and ambient temperature, would that be unreasonable? And of course, isn't this exactly what we do with more familiar, but "uncatalogued" (by QL, LFAD, etc.) milsurp and other powders?

[onefunzr2]

Q. Does Load From a Disk generate load data from a database?

A. The program does not use a load database. All load data is generated from a mathematical model based on user input and sound ballistic principles. A great place to develop loads for wildcat or unusual cartridges as well as standard cartridges. You can predict the performance of a cartridge before the rifle for this cartridge is even built.


Q. Can Load From a Disk users enter their own powder type and load data?

A. No. The math model uses an 86% load density and a working pressure of 40,000 to 50,000 psi to produce optimum loads for a given cartridge. Not all powders fit this criteria for a given cartridge. The program will generate load data for 5 to 10 different powders.

AA5744 is not listed in current version 4.0.4 Neither are milsurp/non-canister powders.

[mike in co]

i'll chime in....
my quickload...i have 6-7 different lots of brass listed just in 223, 7 plus for 308.
4 or 5 for 7.62x54r. i have added lots of bullets.
have even played wiht the powder side a little when my data does not match whats in the data base.
well worth the money!!

do any of you remember my first shots from a 91/30 in like new condition from the finn's ??
by working backwards from early load data, i was able to produce a load at aprox the same pressure as the orginal loads.
what was the advantage ??/
the first round fired was a 10 at 100 yds on a sr21 target.....
you still cannot wipe the smile off my face when i shoot this rifle !...bullet holes in bullet holes at 100 yds with iron sights !!
well worth the bucks folks...it just one more tool in your bag of tricks!

[Finn45]

John, very good. But I don't think it's the seal issue, or even the 100% issue. Maybe partially, but not only. When bullet is backed of form engraving it adds some volume to the volume that cartridge has when bullet is seated. Powder starts to burn creating pressure and driving bullet to the lands; this changes ignition characters; increasing pressure certainly drops or at least slows down the curve when bullet starts to move. Hi energy primer with lots of bang might drive the bullet even before the powder ignites. No? Okay, easy to say that poor reloading made it act that way, but soft and weak brass on the case mouth might force the situation to be that way. Smokeless powder don't just simply ignite (100% ignition, what's that?) and burn according to it's specs after that, it needs enough pressure to do so. It does so even more aggressively if the surrounding pressure increases too much. Or less if pressure stays too low, like it often does with .45-70 low pressure loads. Me too get very exact readings from QL when I'm loading boolits or bullets around the upper level, or even lower upper level in my Marlin. But when I'm switching to slower powder it starts to fail; expansion ratio from seated bullet situation to moving bullet is simply too high to maintain enough pressure to burn powder efficiently. I believe so. I can compress the powder and I get better results in QL, but there's limits for compression and if I'm after some certain velocity limit, then why to push it in the first place... Btw when I say "better results in QL" it means that chronograph velocity matches better with QL. Chronograph comes first always...

My 45-70REM and FED were for different brass only. Nickeled Federal brass that is, biiig difference compared to Remington in volume and harder and thicker case mouth also adds to the bullet pull a great deal.

Heavier bullet means better ignition, that's ok, but heavier bullet means also slower expansion and readily higher pressures when powder starts to burn and burns pushing the bullet. I believe that no enough crimp or bullet pull will compensate that, they are just for the first part of the chain. Meaningful part of course, my last experiment before winter showed few meters per second difference with roll crimp, FCD crimp and no crimp. That was with 420 grain cast and difference would be greater with lighter jacketed I believe.

There was a question about QL pressure readings, they are not readings, they are calculations, estimations or what ever. Everyone can compare published data and QL. Some of the data I have for .45-70 is limited to 3000 bars and this data gives around 3500 bars in QL as a worst example. Most examples are suggesting that QL estimates high pressures, but I think it should be that way.

One thing QL is not telling is when the load is too light. Most manuals have minimum and maximum, but QL only estimates lower velocity and pressure, when it in reality is in the non working or even in dangerously low area.

Quite far from the subject? Maybe. But I've seen this before; a person want's and feels the need for a new toy... and he gets one no matter what. Then he knows. How many users there might be who say don't buy it it's not worth it? Btw, I got it in the first place because there wasn't too much Vihtavuori-data for the .45-70. It served me well and still do. But only with chronograph.

[Bass Ackward]

Reijo,

Some examples in my .458X2. They mean nothing and are not even statistically significant. They are only to show what effect different loading variables have on pressure and consistency in this bore diameter.

Bullet is a 350 grain semi wadcutter sized .3595 unless I list other wise. BHN is 14. My max throat diameter is .460 with a .458 bore and 20"twist so this is as large as I can chamber inside the ball seat / freebore of my throat in this gun. All loads use 40 grains of IMR 4198 with changes noted. This is a very moderate load where the powder boarders on being too slow

Quickload says that I should have perfect world velocity of 1839 fps at 29,672 psi from a 22" barrel.


Test #1
Bullet seated in crimp that bullet goes into the lands:
1720, 1756, 1744 (good burn, 3/4" group, clean cases and chamber.)

Test #2
Bullet seated into the lands with 1cc of shot buffer:
1841, 1844, 1840 (Oh boy! PSB works here too. 100% burn!!! Clean cases and chamber. See Thread, Fillers in Pistol Loads for more results!!! )

Test #3
Cases trimmed for ONLY .005 jump, sizing die #1 (.0065 case neck tension, heavy crimp):
1672, 1698, 1680 (this is still not bad consistency but velocity is now 156 fps below "perfect" projection. Group @ 1 1/2", sooty cases.)

Test #4
Cases trimmed for only.005 jump, sizing die #2. (.002 case neck tension, heavy crimp)(my jacketed sizer)
1630, 1540, 1612 (major velocity drop and shot to shot consistency gone, poor grouping 3", major unburned powder, dirty cases outside and chamber, lost seal.)

Test #5
Back to cases trimmed for .005 jump, sizing die #1 (.006 case neck tension, but actual jump increased to about .009 because bullet diameter now sized .459). Only .0005 less diameter than all the tests above:
1425, 1580, 1508 (Big velocity drop, poor consistency, no leading and group size actually back to about 2" from above, dirty, my goodness, dirty chamber and cases black outside.)

Test #6
Cases trimmed for .005, sizing die #2, 1cc PSB added (.002 neck tension, bullet jump increased to @ .009 because bullet sized .459.)
1636, 1636, 1621 (major improvement in consistency and group size back to about 1 3/8", medium ash in bore, dirty cases and chamber, almost 200 fps below Quickload projection!!!


That was all the examples I tested. These were just chosen to demonstrate why Quickload is inaccurate with light, cast bullets and light loads. Quickload isn't inaccurate, it's the problems stemming from poor ignition that ruin the "perfect" (Quickload) projection.

Clearly you can see that someone with only a chronograph would believe that he had excellent ignition with the last load using PSB. It did help ignition. All he really had was .... consistent ignition. He was 200 fps + from Quickload's, "excellent" ignition projection.

If I change powder charges in Quickload to see what "consistent" ignition velocity looks like, that is what 35 grains of 4198 would generate with "perfect" ignition. He is losing almost 10,000 psi while burning 40 grains of powder to get what 35 grains would generate under excellent ignition conditions with the same length barrel.

This is how Quickload helps. Just look at the disparities above with still pretty fair quality ammunition. Ever wonder why 45 calibers have such a bad reputation for accuracy? This is major league reloading!!!!!

If you have a platform like a lever action where you have to jump the bullet, it's tough. And this is probably why bullet diameter helps so much too. But since I am maxed out at .459, I could not test what a .462 bullet might do to ignition. Clearly a larger diameter bullet would cut the jump and thus seal faster. It would even require more time to size down to bore diameter in the throat. And certainly a larger bullet would help the case seal by not having to move as far to seal the chamber. All of these improve ignition. Today, case neck tension and PSB seem to really help the most if you couldn't reach the lands. Just like a handgun.

[JohnH]

Interesting disscussion. I'd like to have Quickload, but just to compare things. I don't see where it will do a lot for me, but then I'm pretty slow sometimes. I'd be really interested to know how the 375 JDJ and the 9.3 x 57 compare, they should nearly be identical if not so except for operating pressures and bore diameter. If one can figure out this much by looking at dimensional drawings and thinking about it, just what does Quickload really offer? I use milsurp powders, no way to know exactly what one is, and just because it has a lot number attached, does not mean that is the lot number the actual manufactuer used.They may not even be able to tell us. So how can one know? Practically all of the cartridge development that has been done in the last 100 years, let me restate that, all of the cartridge development done up untill the last 30 years or less has been done without Quickload or anything like it except perhaps for Mr. Powleys work and other work like it that is privy to the powder makers alone.

In the end, as a reloader I have only what my chronograph and what little common sense I may posess tells me. The nice thing about pressure tested data in a reloading manual is knowing that someone else loaded up that same load and fired it. Quickload remains a guess, educated though it may be, it is still a guess. And if everytime we change a case, primer, bullet we have to reclock it and re-enter that data, what is the program telling us that we are not telling it? Sounds like another toy to play with. It won't tell me what my gun does.....if the gun will like the load I come up with, I still have to shoot it to discover that.

[BruceB]

Here comes the geriatric section....

I still have a "Powley Computer" (the "slide rule" jobbie....how many people today even know what a 'slide rule' is??) right where I can lay my hands on it any time i want. Although I haven't used it in many years, it did serve surprisingly well when I was developing loads for the .404 Jeffery back in the early '70s, when there was literally almost NO DATA available for the cartridge.

This Quickload business is where the Luddites (me, and apparently Sundog among 'em) part company with the computer generation. I simply do not care about maximum efficiency, the precise gnat's-butt seating depth, what the exact case capacity is, or almost anything else except that the pressure should remain comfortably in the safe zone. I must point out that I have zero difficulty maintaining the safe-pressure requirement without any help from electronics.

Apart from a relatively-few hunting rifles, maybe six or eight of 'em which were each chosen for a certain capability with jacketed bullets, I buy my guns for themselves, because they appeal to me, not to serve any particular purpose nor to meet any predetermined performance levels, either in speed or accuracy. I enjoy shooting them, I enjoy getting old historic guns to "speak" again, I enjoy their history and workmanship, and I enjoy following the development of designs through the years and decades by actually USING the successive designs. So, I end up "running programs" embracing things from blackpowder single-shots to my latest gas gun, the M1A, and everything in between. It's not boring, I'll tell y'all!

The one conspicuous exception to the above is my Ruger 77 in 7.62 Russki Shortski, which I did obtain purely for messing-around with cast boolits. Being very light in the barrel, it's not exactly an ideal test-bed....but, it's great entertainment all the same. All the other rifles and handguns on hand are used with cast boolits because I happen to own them, NOT because I bought them for that purpose. I accept the physical shortcomings of each particular gun and caliber as I encounter them, and have fun working around them. That is, the RIFLE is the priority, and the loading of the ammunition is just a way of being able to use the rifle.

My aversion to involving my computer with load development extends deep enough to say that I wouldn't even maintain computerized handloading records. Perish the bloody thought! I get the the cold jim-jams just thinking about it. I WANT the feel of a heavy looseleaf binder full of valuable info which extends for years into my past. A computer is (a) soul-less, and (b) non-portable, even to a favorite chair.

The computer, for MY handloading uses, is very limited. For handloading, I have a well-experienced data processor between my ears, which serves amply well and doesn't need much in the way of maintenance or Version 3.4-plus-Updates as we go along. I cherish my chronographs and the info they provide, and have used them for over thirty years now, so maybe I'm not totally hopeless in this technological explosion we're going through. Frankly however, with the exception of the chronos, my 1900s rifles are doing just fine with 1900s loads and techniques, and so are the much later-vintage rifles, too!

If I was given the Quickload program, it would never get out of its box. I just have no interest in such things, but for those who do, heck, HAVE A BALL, guys.

[Bass Ackward]

Bruce,

You bring out good points. And why this isn't for everyone. But I hear your arguments and more continually from my father. Why that program / computer ....................

But I gotta tell ya my dad drives me nuts sometime.

Enter this for me, plug this in. What happened?
Midnight calls where he has had ...... an idea.
Should we cut this barrel off?
Would a harder softer bullet help?

And it goes on and on. But it has fostered a more often relationship for sure. :grin:

When I offer to lend him the program it's always, "Na you got it. I know where it is if I ever need it." (Which is about 4 times a week thank you very much.)

[Finn45]

John, well, eh, must be that we are riding the same horse but beating it with different whip. I have never concentrated to the sealing part, except that bullet needs to be suitable for the application. Especially cast bullet. I can see bad seal when load is on the light side, is it generally significant, that I don't know. If seal is lost during primer blast and ignition, then it surely is significant. Bad seal goes away with heavier load or by adding filler; heavier loads increases pressure and so does filler, but not only via better seal I believe.

Your test and all that data is relevant for sure, but a bit confusing for me with all that trimming and seating back and fort, so I take just first too tests and try to understand what else filler do except makes better seal. PSB is some kind of plastic shot buffer, small balls or granules? It has some weight and it occupies some room from the case? 1cc of buffer surely takes at least 0.5cc from the usable case capacity, maybe more? Now if this 0.5cc (or if there's better guess...) is added to the case capacity in QL's perfect projection and bullet weight is reduced the same amount what 1cc of buffer weighs, then, are we on the way to the test #1 results or not? I would do this with my ql, but I can't duplicate your load without bullet length and seating depth. With 40 grains of imr4198 and that pressure and velocity it looks like you have pretty long 350 grainer, short coal, low capacity cases, tight chamber or all those together?

[TCLouis]

that just means I spen a little over 1/3 of the purchae price that I need for Quick Load.

LFAD really gets out of whack with some 45-70 loads that I have checked. Don not know of other places where it is off, and do NOT know if QL will do the same thing under certain data input criteria. I end up using it more for the ballistics program and QBall does that for the 35 buck one can send the author.

I will buy QL this year and use it IN CONJUNCTION WITH LOADING MANUALS AND A CHRONOGRAPH!


This thread does prove one thing . . .

We all have opinions, and somethimes there is no right and wrong, just differing opinions.

[Bass Ackward]

Reigo,

The tests were simply to make sure that you realized what is a small thing to a bottle necked case, a straight case compounds the problem.

My bullets are fitted to engrave when crimped in the crimp groove. If I want to pull back, I must trim my brass or cut bullet diameter. I tried to come up with as many examples as I could reproduce for those that might be interested in what we were talking about. Plus I wanted to try the shot buffer. PSB is shotgun buffer. And my 350 is a semiwadcutter with wide grease grooves so that the bearing area is almost equal to that of a 430 olgival. It is a volume filler that is nice to have, but clearly filler helps too.

Seems that we are on the same path. Thanks for your assistance.


JohnH,

<<The nice thing about pressure tested data in a reloading manual is knowing that someone else loaded up that same load and fired it. Quickload remains a guess, educated though it may be, it is still a guess. And if everytime we change a case, primer, bullet we have to reclock it and re-enter that data, what is the program telling us that we are not telling it? >>

The data in the book is only valid if you match components and use the same gun. That's where the old line, "If you change components start low and work up." But that's the manual. And most of the time I am working outside the range of most. You like to run the fasties. Not much data for running what the manual would consider "poor powder selections". But Quickload has the entire range. You don't have to adjust anything. But then the data is no more valid than the book. If you do, now you have something workable / predictable again.

<<If one can figure out this much by looking at dimensional drawings and thinking about it, just what does Quickload really offer?>>

If you run slow powders for a cartridge, you have time to observe and react. You like the fast burners to save money. Did you know that 1/4 turn of your seating stem could be 7000 psi difference from the reloading manual? This could throw you into a new hardness catagory or an over pressure condition? Would you like a hint before you pull the trigger? And then I remember when you were searching for a heavy 35 bullet for your 357 Max. Is there a lot of data out there for a 350 grainer in the Max? :grin:

Did you know that you could look at the projected pressure and determine what hardness your bullet needs to be between once you get that experience? Could you have found a use for that say, a few months ago? How much did you spend in components, time, and frustration to solve that puzzle? I remember that you were even going to ream your throat because your bullet was too hard for your pressure?

All of this can be gained by experience for sure. Or you can read 50 manuals. And as my dad said today, "The manuals are nice to have at my age. Each time I read them is like the first time." And you do have people here to help you too. So this is just a tool which I am trying to show how to use.

Wait a minute! Didn't you have me run some stuff for you during that period because you couldn't find the data? John ....... go to your room! :grin:

[JohnH]

:) :) :) Well I must admit you've added a few twists I'd not thought of... Course I should've known slow fella that I am. I do like the fasties, and I'd never thought that Quickload might work them in too. Once again my learning curve goes straight up. I just came out of my loading room, You're sending me back???? Just what I wanted, another session at the press ;)

[Bass Ackward]

JohnH,

There is one another advantage to Quickload for money saving in the realm of powders.

Over the years I have bought and sold guns that had powder requirements that may not be idealy compatible with my cartridges today. Quickload has enabled me to use those powders for other applications until they were used up because I could create my own load data. And I didn't have to waste half the can getting a load.

What this has done has enabled me to use up stock that I have had on the shelf for quite some time. Another way of looking at it is that I now stock fewer selections of powders than I have in decades. That means more space and less money tied up in inventory without sacrificing anything. Or I have more room to stock the powders I am using. How ever you want to look at it.

[mike in co]

bruce....
as i sit here i can see eleven loose leaf binders. some are a single round, some are a single rifle. i can count twelve spiral note books. again some are single round, most are multiple guns.
having quickload does not stop one from collecting data. it seems to me that i collect more significant data because i start from good points, not WAG (wild ass guesses).
there are more than a dozen loading manuals on the shelves. i do look to see what others reccomend, but with a cautous eye. what twist do i have , what twist did they test ? as reloaders we often put bullets at some lenght other than the one listed in the books. i find it nice to be able to adjust a powder load for this simple change in volume.

speaking of volume. someone mentioned just how big the volume change can be in brass. my pistol brass is all single lot per load. my rifle brass is sorted in small groups that are consistant,typicall 20 to 60 pcs per lot. i have some 223 brass that is the same weight for all 30 pcs in the lot.

everyone has thier own comfort zone when loading and shooting. for me its accuracy, accuracy, accuracy. i remove as many variables as possible. build them or buy them, tune them, shoot them, compete with them and hopefully win with them. i just don't do much plinking.

[BD]

How up to date is Quickload? Does it have RL 25, Retumbo or Ramshot Magnum? Does the publisher make periodic updates available? BD

[mike in co]

yes to rl25, no to the others, but i have not asked about a new update, mine is dated in 2003...i'm sure there is an newer update( i have added three udates since my original purchase in sometime on 2000)
yes i like it...

[Finn45]

I have QL V.3.1 (once upgraded from floppy version to CD-version, with cost) and it's once updated from free of charge NECO's update file. My version have RL25, Hodgdon Retumbo and Ramshot Magnum (Big Boy), but not Vihtavuori N530 which has been on the market some time now. Availability of new powders depends of not only Mr. Brömel, but powder manufacturers and how early they want to release specs of their new powders I believe. Brömel has never offered automatic updates, but he have sent latest files when I have asked. I believe US dealer NECO takes care of US customers pretty good by offering updates in their website?

[BD]

Thanks Finn,
It may be worth it to me then as I'm interested in trying the newer powders in the .270 WBy mag. Unfortunately very little data is available for the old .270 WBY mag as most of the powder and bullet manufacturers are too busy working up the new shorten lounden boomers to take time out for us older farts. I just finished two pounds of RL 25 behind 150 grain nosler partitions with no idea how close to the edge I was getting. BD