"Pull down powder" for .50bmg

[emt1581]

Looking to buy more .50bmg powder so I can have fun long-term with my newest .50bmg. I've got LC brass (currently loaded), I'll be getting an NOE/Accurate mold, and I just got the LEE press kit.

In shopping around I see 8lb. jugs of "pull down powder" for sale. But a couple concerns....

1) Is there anything wrong or suspicious about it? It seems unbelievably cheap compared to other powders.

2) Admittedly I haven't done much digging yet but is there load data for the cast bullets for these powders? Didn't know if one powder stood out from the rest in terms of being a good match for cast.

Thanks!

[pworley1]

I have used several pounds of it for other calibers from 6.5 to 458. It has always worked fine. I use 8700 data for wc867 and wc872.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I've bought several different pulldown powders from Jeff Bartlett at GIbrass.
Nothing wrong or suspicious about his powders. He provides info about how to create loads for them.
Good Luck

[ShooterAZ]

I've bought several different pulldown powders from Jeff Bartlett at GIbrass.
Nothing wrong or suspicious about his powders. He provides info about how to create loads for them.
Good Luck

Same here, GI Brass is a good source for pull down powder, brass and projectiles too when he has them. I haven't checked the site in a while, I may have to see what he has.

[MUSTANG]

(1) Not many people reload for 50 BMG or 20MM Vulcan - so those powders when pulled down at factory; or retrieved from large quantities of de-milled surplus ammo are not sought out by most reloads.

(2) I have loaded several different Rifle calibers from .224 up to 50 BMG with the surplus WC860/WC867/Wc870/WC872 powders. They are really slow in smaller cases; but there are methodologies for bettering performance. Do a search on the site for loads using WC860/WC867/Wc870/WC872 .

When powder gets scarce again; the 50BMG/20mm Vulcan powders can serve to keep shooting; although not the best choice-a lesser desirable option is better than no option. Buy 2/4/8 jugs at the prices for Surplus 50/20mm Vulcan powder - usually shipping and Hazmat are essentially same price as a single 8 pound jug.

[emt1581]

(1) Not many people reload for 50 BMG or 20MM Vulcan - so those powders when pulled down at factory; or retrieved from large quantities of de-milled surplus ammo are not sought out by most reloads.

(2) I have loaded several different Rifle calibers from .224 up to 50 BMG with the surplus WC860/WC867/Wc870/WC872 powders. They are really slow in smaller cases; but there are methodologies for bettering performance. Do a search on the site for loads using WC860/WC867/Wc870/WC872 .

When powder gets scarce again; the 50BMG/20mm Vulcan powders can serve to keep shooting; although not the best choice-a lesser desirable option is better than no option. Buy 2/4/8 jugs at the prices for Surplus 50/20mm Vulcan powder - usually shipping and Hazmat are essentially same price as a single 8 pound jug.


I'll be loading it with 887gr cast for the most part....if the mold works out. I didn't consider the versatility of the powder for other calibers. Sounds like it's best for rifle calibers over .223. I planned to buy 6 jugs. Just need to find more primers or figure out how to recharge them and I can shoot until the barrel wears out.

So given all that, does any powder stand out? I tried shooting him an email earlier today but it kept bouncing back. Gonna have to call tomorrow.

Thanks

[MUSTANG]

Let's reemphasize - it's not a good choice for calibers smaller than 50BMG; but it can be made to work as a choice when other options are not available.

Here is link on some work I did with WC860 in the .223 back in 2012 (we unfortunately see these cycles of Reloading components being limited/unavailable - which is why I explored using WC860 in .223 for that thread) Read a Lot on duplex loading before you begin doing duplex loads. There are other threads dealing wit WC860, WC872 in other calibers.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?160094-WC860-in-223-5-56-Yes-But

[Hamish]

“ it's not a good choice for calibers smaller than 50BMG”

.223, .243, no.

.308 or bigger, yes. It’s the only powder I use for 7,92x57. I use it almost exclusively in .308 and 30-06.

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Surplus/default.html


A quick search of the site will bring up previous .50 BMG posts using WC870 and WC872.

[rbuck351]

I have been using pull down 5010 for several years now from 30/30 on up by using duplex charges. It's been working very well for me with boolits.

[milsurpcollector1970]

Casefull of 5010 with Lyman 314299 in 30.06 goes around 1600 fps makes an accurate target load

[emt1581]

Mustang and Hamish-

Definitely going to be buying a large order of one of these.

While its primarily for cast and other 50bmg loads... I'd like to get whatever is most versatile overall (pistol, shotgun, rifle) if that even exists with these options. I see 860 was really focused on, but is that going to be the most versatile or is one of the others going to be the "Unique/Universal" of pull down powders?

Thanks!

[MUSTANG]

If you can find Unique, Universal, 2400 powders - Buy them even at currently inflated prices (Unless one believes the shortage will be short lived and after 3-4 months return to normal). These powers are good for cast in pistol and low velocity rifle.

If you run across Bullseye, Red Dot, Green Dot, Winchester 231, 700x, Clays, or Trailboss you should add these powders to your Powder Locker as available/your wallet can afford. These will provide loads (Classics like Bullseye, Red Dot, and 231 being preferred as lots of load data available from old and new sources) for your pistol needs (and in some case can do low velocity rifle loads). They also represent powders that can be used as "Boosters" in loads using the 50BMG/20mmVulcan loads.

[emt1581]

If you can find Unique, Universal, 2400 powders - Buy them even at currently inflated prices (Unless one believes the shortage will be short lived and after 3-4 months return to normal). These powers are good for cast in pistol and low velocity rifle.

If you run across Bullseye, Red Dot, Green Dot, Winchester 231, 700x, Clays, or Trailboss you should add these powders to your Powder Locker as available/your wallet can afford. These will provide loads (Classics like Bullseye, Red Dot, and 231 being preferred as lots of load data available from old and new sources) for your pistol needs (and in some case can do low velocity rifle loads). They also represent powders that can be used as "Boosters" in loads using the 50BMG/20mmVulcan loads.

So none is any better than the other pull-down-wise?

[MUSTANG]

emt1581:

go to the top of this or any other page on this thread and you will see a block entitled google custom search, and below it Advanced Search.

In that block type in Powder Burn Rate. This will produce a lot of active and archived links in Cast Boolits you can be steered to on Powder Burn Rate discussions and links to burn rate Tables. I would recommend at this juncture you spend as much time as you can over the next week or so reading and digesting the information you will find; you'll find the Sage Wisdom of many listed there and reference material. This will posture you to understand how all those different Powders relate to one another; and if you see a powder better determine if it can meet your needs.

[emt1581]

emt1581:

go to the top of this or any other page on this thread and you will see a block entitled google custom search, and below it Advanced Search.

In that block type in Powder Burn Rate. This will produce a lot of active and archived links in Cast Boolits you can be steered to on Powder Burn Rate discussions and links to burn rate Tables. I would recommend at this juncture you spend as much time as you can over the next week or so reading and digesting the information you will find; you'll find the Sage Wisdom of many listed there and reference material. This will posture you to understand how all those different Powders relate to one another; and if you see a powder better determine if it can meet your needs.

This is what I was wanting to do, but at the same time hoping to avoid, because right now I have my choice due to everything being in stock. Might not stay that way over the next few days.

[cga]

Last .50 bmg. I loaded was with 215g./IMR5010/LC brass/CCI primer and a A.P.I. (silver tip)

[flounderman]

bought 50 pounds of wc852 when clinton got elected, from Pat McDonald. Loads everything but .223. similar to 4831

[Hamish]

This is what I was wanting to do, but at the same time hoping to avoid, because right now I have my choice due to everything being in stock. Might not stay that way over the next few days.

**** You will be much better served trying to get Jeff on the phone. He is a one (older) man operation who moves between 3 small buildings when he is on premises.****

Mustang is giving you very good advise.

WC860, 870, 872 is going to give you exactly what you want in 50BMG. I would assume that WC857 would be a good choice for .50 cast.

The above will give you 1700fps to full power loads in anything in the battle rifle cartridges or bigger, both cast and jacketed.

They will not work any other way.

All the fast powders that Mustang mentioned will get you all kinds of different load combinations. Lower velocity loads with small amounts of powder are where they shine.

Let me make very clear what Mustang was trying to say nicely. Research into Powder burn rates and individual powder suit abilities in various applications is the most important thing a reloader needs to learn if you’re wanting to load anything smaller than .308.

Cases in point.
Many use 2400 for reduced loading in various cartridges. Personally, I like it best using it where it at least mostly fills the cartridge space. I have seen too much velocity variation in medium sized cases with less than 50% fill.

Unique. A wonderful powder that will do most anything you want in small and medium cartridges up to its pressure limits, but let’s face it, it’s dirty. 700x will do most of the same things, and is one of the cheapest powders on the market. Still a little dirty though. There are other choices that burn cleaner for more money.

Green Dot, a personal favourite for handguns, 16 and 20ga.

231, 110/296, Red Dot, Blue Dot, all are good powders. You need to sit down and make a list of what you Want to do and then spend time searching and seeing what comes up for those loads. You’ve got the entire internet to learn from,,,,,

[emt1581]

**** You will be much better served trying to get Jeff on the phone. He is a one (older) man operation who moves between 3 small buildings when he is on premises.****

Mustang is giving you very good advise.

WC860, 870, 872 is going to give you exactly what you want in 50BMG. I would assume that WC857 would be a good choice for .50 cast.

The above will give you 1700fps to full power loads in anything in the battle rifle cartridges or bigger, both cast and jacketed.

They will not work any other way.

All the fast powders that Mustang mentioned will get you all kinds of different load combinations. Lower velocity loads with small amounts of powder are where they shine.

Let me make very clear what Mustang was trying to say nicely. Research into Powder burn rates and individual powder suit abilities in various applications is the most important thing a reloader needs to learn if you’re wanting to load anything smaller than .308.



Jeff and I spoke via email earlier yesterday. He said any of the 4 would be fine and that jacketed or cast didn't matter. I'm starting to get the impression that there's really nothing about any of them that will stand out from the others in terms of .50bmg, cast, or other rifle cartridge capability and that they all have options. Or am I mistaken?

Thanks!

[Hamish]

Yes.

http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/reloaders-reference/surplus-powder-data

[emt1581]

Yes.

http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/reloaders-reference/surplus-powder-data

Thanks for that!! Seems like the WC860 is good for .308. Not seeing any of the four listed for .223.

[MUSTANG]

Thanks for that!! Seems like the WC860 is good for .308. Not seeing any of the four listed for .223.

None of the 50BMG's/20mm Vulcan powders will be listed for .223. If one uses those slow powder in a .223 using a full case of powder and a Magnum Primer - there will be lots of unburned powder in the barrel and after a shot or two in the chamber from unburned powder. This is why I pointed you my post from several years ago using a "Duplex Load" with those powders in the .223's. That is the only way to get a full burn of the Surplus 50BMG style powders in a .223.

[emt1581]

None of the 50BMG's/20mm Vulcan powders will be listed for .223. If one uses those slow powder in a .223 using a full case of powder and a Magnum Primer - there will be lots of unburned powder in the barrel and after a shot or two in the chamber from unburned powder. This is why I pointed you my post from several years ago using a "Duplex Load" with those powders in the .223's. That is the only way to get a full burn of the Surplus 50BMG style powders in a .223.

I'll be honest, I missed the load data before. That's interesting. Never heard of combining powders in a shell. But I do have a couple jugs of Unique so could certainly try it.

Seems like the WC860 is going to be the winner.

Thanks!

[Dapaki]

Duplex loading using the WC867 over Ramshot Silhouette has worked fantastic for me in the 45-70, 7mm-08, 350 Legend, 6.5 Grendel, 7.62x39 and some success with .223 as well. Especially in this time of no available components, I would certainly look at alternatives to off the shelf powders.

The Ramshot Silhouette does an exceptional job of getting the 867 burning and pushing any unburnt powder out of the bore. Yes, it is dirty but so is 2400 IMHO.

[emt1581]

Duplex loading using the WC867 over Ramshot Silhouette has worked fantastic for me in the 45-70, 7mm-08, 350 Legend, 6.5 Grendel, 7.62x39 and some success with .223 as well. Especially in this time of no available components, I would certainly look at alternatives to off the shelf powders.

The Ramshot Silhouette does an exceptional job of getting the 867 burning and pushing any unburnt powder out of the bore. Yes, it is dirty but so is 2400 IMHO.

The normal distributor my dealer gets his stuff from is down to muzzle loader primers and none of the powders are showing on their screen. I'm guessing if I took the drive to the Cabela's in Hamburg it'd be the same story. So I'll grab a case of the WC860 and squirrel it away for when I start casting the 887 NOE bullets and then, if all goes well, I'll try the duplex with unique for .223.

Just because the concept is totally new for me, any tips on loading both powders? Seems like a super slow process of individually measuring both powders one round at a time and not something I can do on a progressive.

Thanks

[maxreloader]

Seems like a super slow process of individually measuring both powders one round at a time and not something I can do on a progressive.
Thanks

First world problems lol...

[243winxb]

Surplus & Pull down are different. Years ago, some 50 BMG powder self combust. Started fire. Was recalled.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

The normal distributor my dealer gets his stuff from is down to muzzle loader primers and none of the powders are showing on their screen. I'm guessing if I took the drive to the Cabela's in Hamburg it'd be the same story. So I'll grab a case of the WC860 and squirrel it away for when I start casting the 887 NOE bullets and then, if all goes well, I'll try the duplex with unique for .223.

Just because the concept is totally new for me, any tips on loading both powders? Seems like a super slow process of individually measuring both powders one round at a time and not something I can do on a progressive.

Thanks

After you're done 'sparamenting, an industrious loader could probably rig up two powder measures on a Progressive ;)

[emt1581]

After you're done 'sparamenting, an industrious loader could probably rig up two powder measures on a Progressive ;)

So that two different powders could drop into the same shell within the same pull? I'd be interested to see something like that. Off to google/youtube to see if I can find such a creature.

Thanks

[ulav8r]

So that two different powders could drop into the same shell within the same pull? I'd be interested to see something like that. Off to google/youtube to see if I can find such a creature.

Thanks

No. Mount the fast measure so it dispenses it's load first, then a second measure with the slow powder. The fast powder needs to be in the base of the case with the slow powder on top of it. The powders should not be mixed, the full load should be slightly compressed so the powders do not move and mix or a small square of tissue could be used on top of the fast powder but that would slow down the process quite a bit.

[dtknowles]

I know people are trying to make a complex problem as simple or provide cookbook solutions. Those who use those simple explanations or cookbook methods should understand the limitations of their knowledge. Powder burn rate charts are just one such oversimplification. Burn rates sometimes are very pressure dependent. Also some powders only work as expected in a narrow range of pressures. Just because a chart says two powders have similar burn rates don't assume they will behave the same. Two powders can have a similar burn rate but that does not mean you use the same amount of them.

Tim

[emt1581]

I know people are trying to make a complex problem as simple or provide cookbook solutions. Those who use those simple explanations or cookbook methods should understand the limitations of their knowledge. Powder burn rate charts are just one such oversimplification. Burn rates sometimes are very pressure dependent. Also some powders only work as expected in a narrow range of pressures. Just because a chart says two powders have similar burn rates don't assume they will behave the same. Two powders can have a similar burn rate but that does not mean you use the same amount of them.

Tim

I understand what you are saying, and I also understand that I may not be experienced enough to feel safe/confident in screwing around with these duplex loads.

Thanks

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I know people are trying to make a complex problem as simple or provide cookbook solutions. Those who use those simple explanations or cookbook methods should understand the limitations of their knowledge. Powder burn rate charts are just one such oversimplification. Burn rates sometimes are very pressure dependent. Also some powders only work as expected in a narrow range of pressures. Just because a chart says two powders have similar burn rates don't assume they will behave the same. Two powders can have a similar burn rate but that does not mean you use the same amount of them.

Tim

Confucius say, "ask a simple question, get a simple answer"

Personally, I am 99% sure that is what today's Interwebs are used for ;)

[emt1581]

6 jugs of WC860 en route! Was also able to snag a brick of CCI primers with plenty left on the shelf....all by it's lonesome....tonight at Cabela's. :guntootsmiley:

Was a ghost town in the gun dept. Depressing for sure.

[emt1581]

Box arrived today....holy crap this is a ton of powder!! I feel like between shooting .50bmg and if I use it for 308win for the rest of my life, some is still getting passed down to my son. Haven't done the math on what 308 would take, but I'm confident I won't ever need more.

[Winger Ed.]

Box arrived today....holy crap this is a ton of powder!!.

When only getting 30-ish or less charges per pound, I found out it actually goes pretty fast.

[farmbif]

I know people try a whole bunch of crazy off book stuff when supplies are hard to come by. but how exactly do you calculate how much of each powder in "duplex" loading.
I guess it just a matter of time till we see someone getting blown up on youtube with a "duplex" load
or maybe the new Lyman "duplex" load manual is still at the printers