Casual discussion: What's the deal with .38 Super?

[VariableRecall]

Looking through the shelves of my LGS I've seen that they still have ample supplies of .38 Super. After reading more of Elmer Keith's Sixguns (Thanks Amazon Kindle!), he seems to keep 38 Super in high regard and often puts it to a higher pedestal to 9mm Parabellum.

I'm getting the impression that .38 Super is the go-to caliber for folks that can't have reasonable access to 9mm and still want a high velocity 9mm/.38 caliber cartridge.

I've only really seen 1911 clones (and older manufactured Colts) chambered in this cartridge. In comparison, .380 ACP, which performs a similar role, is very popular in modern self defense handguns.

So, what's the deal with .38 Super? Is there any reason why it's not as popular as most high velocity cartridges?
I'm not looking to get something chambered in this caliber any time soon but this subject has piqued my interest as I've been moving through Sixguns.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I myself have no use for 380 but for 38 super , well it is a souped up 9mm , Have several of the 1911 38 supers , brass is scarce , bullets are same size as 9mm , whats not to like . It is a sweet shooter in my opinion , have not seen much on shelves in local area , but I do not buy factory ammo .

[dverna]

It is a bastard case so brass is scarce. It offers only a very slight performance advantage over a 9mm+P. With nearly every modern 9mm able to shoot +P loads, it remains a “red headed stepchild”.

I talked one of my best friends out of having a custom .38 Super built.

BTW, if you found some ammunition for it, that is telling....and not in a good way. Do you think manufacturers will switch to making more of it when they can sell every round of 9mm they can churn out?

Investing in weapons chambered in unpopular cartridges, that may be sitting on shelves during a shortage, is not a wise strategy. There was a gentleman here who did that with rifle calibers during the last shortage.

[Petrol & Powder]

VariableRecall, when looking at the 38 Super you need to keep it in historical context. Several factors during its history helped to keep it around. It has had the ability to defeat barriers well, such as car bodies, making it desirable for law enforcement in the 1930's. It was was not a military cartridge, making it desirable in places such as Mexico, that banned military cartridges. It got a huge boost when competitors learned how to "make major" with it when competing in games that required a certain power level. The higher magazine capacity was also helpful.
It is a semi-rimmed case (like other John Browning designs of that era) and it is American.
It's that American part that helped to keep it alive in its early years. The 9mm Luger was a contemporary cartridge and known in the U.S. but not very common in the U.S. until post WWII years. A little bit of its popularity comes from its home field advantage, particularly in the pre-war years.

VariableRecall wrote: "I'm getting the impression that .38 Super is the go-to caliber for folks that can't have reasonable access to 9mm and still want a high velocity 9mm/.38 caliber cartridge.". You got the right impression. In places that prohibit military cartridges (like Mexico) the 38 Super was a viable alternative. Some of that acceptance south of the border leaked over north of the border as well. So there's some regional aspect there as well. You will encounter more 38 Super pistols in the states that border Mexico simply because it is more well known in those regions.

The 38 Super just never really caught on and while some factors mentioned above helped keep it from going extinct, it never became truly mainstream. That's why you are seeing 38 Super cartridges available for sale now when little else is available. There just isn't that much demand for it.

The 9mm Luger isn't the ballistic equivalent of the 38 Super but it far more accepted worldwide. In fact, the 9mm Luger is the most commonly found pistol cartridge in the world.
The 9mm +P and the 357 SIG are real competitors to the 38 Super.

I will not say the 38 Super is like the 16 gauge shotgun (something beloved by its followers but not commonly accepted) but the parallels are there.

[RU shooter]

My take on it is it didn't usually come in a high capacity pistol like is smaller brother the 9mm or the 357 sig which is what the younger generation want and think they need . It's never been really talked up in the gun rags as a Self defense round , and me not being real old but not young either (52) I can probably count on my hands when I have seen it stocked on gun store shelves , or seen a new or used 38 super for sale in person . Personally I never had the urge to own one . I knew it was used a lot in the shooting games but never was into that . I could get the same pistol in the more popular and powerful 10mm or 45 that only held a round or two less or a more compact gun in 9 that's only a little less powerful but held 15-17 rds .

[marlin39a]

I own and enjoy casting, loading, and shooting, for my 38 Super. It is always at full speed. I appreciate the history of the caliber. It was favored by law enforcement, and gangsters, during prohibition days. John Dillinger had a 1911 made up by an Arizona gunsmith, that was full auto, with an extended magazine. To me, it’s about owning, and shooting a caliber from the past. I like my 45 1911’s, but prefer the 38 Super.

[Buzz Krumhunger]

I think you’ll find a lot more .38 Super aficionados along the border with sunny Mexico than anywhere else in the US.

The main detriment to carrying one for SD use is the lack of effective modern bullet design factory loaded ammo.

[charlie b]

It became another one of those "in between" rounds. A bit more than 9mm, but, not up to .357. Like stated above, most of the pistols I have seen chambered in it since the 80's have been race guns. Smaller bullet that would shoot major. The higher pressures seemed to make the compensators of the day work even better so recoil effects were a lot better than the .45acp counter parts.

Then came the .40 and 10mm. The .40 especially seemed to fit the 'need' for something more than the 9 without being too long for the grips of today.

In these parts the .357Sig kinda sealed the fate of the .38Super. It was designed to emulate the .357Mag 125gn load that the State Police were in love with. They used those pistols for quite a few years.

Then the bullet mfgs really went to work on the 9mm and made cartridges that would pass the FBI testing criteria. Now the 9mm is back in front.

[yovinny]

The 38 Super is basically the 1929 magnum version of the earlier 1900 38acp, both being the American products of John Moses Browning and the Colt Pat. Firearms Co.
It was the early lawman's answer to penetration, and offered 357 mag type balistics in an auto loading firearm, in a time before the 357 mag was even introduced.
Interesting to note, even Gen. Thompson saw the potential of the super and produced
Thompson SMG's in the chambering.
While 9mm can be loaded over pressured to compete with it, it will never equal the full potential of the supers larger case, especially with heavier weight projectiles.
The much newer 357 sig will, but with the additional complications of a bottle neck cartridge... Something many pistol shooters choose not to deal with, for the added trouble vs minimal benefit.
So for those with a love for the Colt Rampant Stallion, John M. Browning, American history and magnum velocity and power, the 38 Super will always be closer to our hearts then the upstart foreign born 9mm Luger.
Just my .02
Cheers, yv

[RJM52]

You all missing a great round...

Have been shooting and carrying a Colt Commander in .38 Super for going on 41 years...every day... Have well over a dozen 1911s right now as well as four S&W revolvers, an AMT Backup and a Taurus PT38S...and two MegTech Carbine Conversions... Is my favorite handgun round right there with the odd-ball .41 Magnum.

The biggest problem for the Super as to why it wasn't very popular is an inherent accuracy problem cause buy an outdated headspacing method. In 1929 when Colt chambered the 1911 for the .38 ACP and dropped the 1903 Automatics there was no such cartridge know as the ,38 Super...the 1911 was called the SUPER .38 and chambered for .38 ACP. The velocity at the time was something like 1080 fps which was jacked up by Remington to 1300 fps in the early 1930s.

Unfortunately Colt/Browning retained the headspace on the case rim method of headspacing from the 1903 instead of going to the headspace on the case mouth like the 1911 .45 ACP...as a result from 1929 to 1990 accuracy suffered. This problem was discovered and solved in the mid 1970s and BarSto started making the first barrels correctly headspaced and accuracy went for the worst possible to beating everything else...with power to spare... Only Colt barrels were so headspaced and they finally changed but easily 10+ years after they could have....but that is Colt.

https://www.1911forum.com/threads/the-old-super-38-barrels.182030/page-10#post-13296658


Being a straight walled case, one can handload bullets from 80 to 180 grains. If one uses ammo from Buffalo Bore, Georgia Arms, Underwood, CorBon, Red's Ammo, one gets just short of 4" .357 Magnum power...125s at 1350 and 115s at 1450... 9mm +P+ don't make that.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170624164255/http://38super.net/

https://hipowersandhandguns.com/Corbon%2038%20Super%20Ammo%20Tests.htm


And by just having a 9mm barrel fitted and proper springs, one can have common ammo (well it used to be common and inexpensive) for practice... And if one wants full .357 Magnum power 9x23 Winchester can often be run in .38 Super chambers...and if not another barrel can be fitted...


Just love the round...Bob

[ReloaderFred]

Posts 9 and 10 pretty much cover the history of the .38 Super and it's early problems with headspacing on the minimal rim, etc.. When it was developed, it filled a very real need, since gangster's cars (all cars, really) were made from real steel back then, and a lot of their crime was conducted from transportation, including many running gun battles with police, who for the most part were saddled with 158 gr. RN .38 Special loads, or .45 acp FMJ loads for the few who carried Semi Auto handguns.

Fast forward to today, and one of my most accurate semi auto handguns is a Witness Match in .38 Super. I own several handguns in this caliber, and every one of them is a good performer, especially with the 130 gr. bullets it was designed for.

The funny part is how everyone takes the 9x19 for granted, and assumes it's been in the U.S. since 1902, when it was invented. That's far from the case. In the early 1960's, I owned a Star copy of the 1911 in 9x19 caliber. I checked every gun store in the metropolitan Los Angeles area, where I lived at the time, and was constantly told that the ammunition wasn't available for "that European caliber". A few shops tried to order some for me, but to no avail. A neighbor had a couple of 9x19 rounds he had brought back from World War II as souvenirs, and he loaned me one so I could get the dimensions. I started with .38 Special cases and chucked them in my Dad's drill press and worked them over with a file until I was able to duplicate the rim and extractor groove on the first few. Then I cut them off and proceeded to load them with 146 gr. .38 bullets, since that was the only mold I had at the time. There was no loading data in any of the reloading manuals I had at the time, so I guesstimated loading data and made up some rounds to test from the first five rounds I'd fashioned from .38 Spl. brass. The first round was fired after the pistol was tied to a post, and I used a string to pull the trigger, and it worked!

I then spent several days after work making a total of fifty rounds of my "9x19" brass from .38 Special brass, using my Dad's drill press and a file. I now had enough 9x19 ammo to actually shoot the gun, but it took a lot of work to get there. I took one of my rounds to a local gun shop and showed the owner, and his comment was, "well, I'll be damned". That was the only way I could shoot that 9x19 pistol at that time. It wasn't until the early 1970's that the 9x19 started showing up in the U.S. The first law enforcement agency of any size to adopt it was the Illinois State Police, when they adopted the Model 39 pistol that the USAF rejected to replace the Model 15 revolvers they were using for flight crews and Security Police. After agencies started adopting the double stack Model 59 pistol, then there was a demand for 9x19 ammunition and the domestic companies began producing it in quantities that made it available to the civilian market. My agency used the Winchester 100 gr. Power Point ammo for many years, simply because it functioned in our 59's, not because it was the best ammunition. After the inventor of the Model 39, 52 and 59, Joe Foster, was brought back out of retirement by Smith & Wesson to fix some feeding problems in about 1978 or 79, then we were able to use the Speer Lawman 125 gr. SP ammunition. I sat across the workbench from Joe Foster for two days upgrading over 300 Model 59's, and he was a very interesting guy. After the upgrades he came up with, we were able to shoot just about any ammunition through our 59's.

That's just a little personal history on the 9x19, and why there was first the .38 ACP, and then the .38 Super. The Plus P designation was added to the cases for .38 Super to keep people from shooting the higher pressure .38 Super in pistols intended for the .38 ACP, which is a low pressure round. Many fine pistols intended for .38 ACP have been battered badly by shooting .38 Super ammunition through them.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[charlie b]

Just for grins you should also look at the 9x23Win. Essentially a higher pressure .38Super without the rim. This one is almost a rimless .357mag, at least with lighter bullets.

Also designed due to the major class distinction. When the ruling committees reduced the level for major it went away, since the heavy loaded 9mm's could make that.

[oso]

Just did a Quick Reality Check. .38 Super brass is not scarce. I still have several thousand and you can get thousands more.

[oldsalt444]

Another option is the 38 Super Comp. It's a rimless version of the original and feeds more reliably. Pretty much a reloader's proposition, but Starline offers the brass. It is favored by the "runnin and gunnin" shooters and even bullseye competitors use it effectively at 38 Special level reduced loads.

[Outpost75]

Minor correction. The 9mm Luger/Parabellum is 9x19mm, the .38 Super is 9x23mmSR

[rintinglen]

As mentioned above, prior to the 1980's, the only way to get a 38 Super that shot remotely well was to spend a bucket of dough to have a pistol smith work the gun over, install a new, expensive barrel and then, if you were lucky, you had a gun that shot half way decently. I have personally seen two "Name" run-n-gun pistols that wouldn't hold to a paper plate when first returned from the shop.

But when the "P" in IPSC became silent, the top flight shooters all swapped over to higher capacity pistols loaded hotter than the hinges of Hades to meet Major. A 21 shot pistol meant far fewer reloads in a typical match. A high speed projectile made the compensators work better. But that cost money. Two or Three grand bought you a competitive pistol setup. If winning mattered, a lot of guys were priced out of the market. For Joe Sixpack, or for that matter, Paul Lawdog, most personally owned revolvers and pistols were not competitive. Consequently, the 38 Super came to be regarded by many as a "gamer's toy," not a serious pistol cartridge. Further IPSC rule changes made the "Super" with it's (normally) rare and expensive ammo fairly uncommon, when the lower cost 9mm could just as easily make the new, lower power factors.

The fact that the 38 Super ammo is on the shelf now is a testament to its comparative oddity. Me, I trim and use it to make Browning 9mm Long brass for my 1907 Husqvarna. I have also turned the heads on it to make 9 mm Largo brass. I hope it stays available.

[Ragnarok]

There were/are a lot of longer 9mm/.38 'long' auto pistol cartridges. The 9mm Browning Long, Colt .38acp and it's hotter brother .38Super, 9mm Largo, 9mm Steyr, etc

I had owned a Llama .38 Super years ago and ammo was tough to find then....plus my Llama didn't like the Remington 130gr hollow point ammo I could find! I did discover that my Llama 1911 style pistol did like the .38acp Remington ball ammo which was tough to find too...Remington was about the only factory ammo in those two calibers in the 1980's I ever saw!

I own a 9mm Steyr M1912 pistol and have not had too much issue finding ammo for that old obsolete thing! The .38 Super seems to have regained some popularity the last 20 years or so but I would think somebody at the gun store screwed up and ordered a case of .38 Super and meant to get some .38 Special??

[country gent]

The 38 super suffered from some early issues one was it was originally chambered to head space on the cases small rim and accuracy suffered often. When chambered to head space on the mouth in a well built pistol accuracy was often very good. It was a high performance cartridge back in the day and performed well but there were many more 1911s made in 45 acp and more available. I have a early 38 super 1911 thats an excellent shooter accuracy wise and recoil is light and easier to control. early powders limited it some the more modern powders give it another push in performance. In the late 70s early 80s during the ispc craze the 38 super would make major caliber it was more efficent with the comps of the day with higher gas volume. The 9mm was capable of making major caliber. At some point I may build a kimber ultra carry into a 38 super. Its a fine round and very useable. One thing that held it back was as mentioned above a lot more 1911s were being built in 45 and with the military using 45 surplus ammo was every where for the 45 s. If the military had adopted the super possibly the 45 would be the red headed step child. :-D

[dtknowles]

I too turned the rims off 38 super brass to make 9 x 23 (Largo) brass. I rechambered a 9x19 CZ-52 barrel to 9 x 23 and load it like a 9 x 25 and can match modern .357 mag. ammo performance. I now have three kinds of brass for that gun. The modified 38 super brass, Starline 9 x 23 (Largo) brass and Winchester 9 x 23 Win brass.

271566

380 ACP
9 x 19 Para
9 x 23 Largo
9 x 23 loaded for long magazine
357 mag.

One more point the 38 super is pretty much a semi-rimmed 9 x 23 with very little taper the 9 x 19 appears to have more taper.

Tim

[Petrol & Powder]

Lots of excellent information above and a particular thank you to ReloaderFred for addressing a key point.
The 9 x 19 was known in the U.S.A. but it wasn't commonly found. From what I've read, the 9mm Luger cartridge didn't really make inroads in the U.S. until after WWII and even then it wasn't very common.
Military personnel bringing back 9mm pistols after the war gave the 9mm a boost in acceptance in the U.S. but that didn't happen overnight.
The Illinois State Police adoption of the cartridge was also an important step.
In the meantime, it was the 38 Super that filled that void in the U.S.

The fact the the 38 Super was an "American" cartridge certainly didn't hurt either.

The 38 Super is loved by some and it has some endearing attributes but it will probably never be a mainstream cartridge. It has held on due to the factors previously listed: its non-military classification for countries that ban military cartridges, its use in IPSC and other sports where its traits could be exploited and its historical use in the 1911 as an alternative to the 45 ACP in that pistol.
Unfortunately for the 38 Super, the 9 x 19 has a far greater grasp on the world.

From a ballistics point of view; it is interesting. From a sales and worldwide distribution point of view; there's probably not much more traction there.

It does have some cool history.

[VariableRecall]

Lots of excellent information above and a particular thank you to ReloaderFred for addressing a key point.
The 9 x 19 was known in the U.S.A. but it wasn't commonly found. From what I've read, the 9mm Luger cartridge didn't really make inroads in the U.S. until after WWII and even then it wasn't very common.
Military personnel bringing back 9mm pistols after the war gave the 9mm a boost in acceptance in the U.S. but that didn't happen overnight.
The Illinois State Police adoption of the cartridge was also an important step.
In the meantime, it was the 38 Super that filled that void in the U.S.

The fact the the 38 Super was an "American" cartridge certainly didn't hurt either.

The 38 Super is loved by some and it has some endearing attributes but it will probably never be a mainstream cartridge. It has held on due to the factors previously listed: its non-military classification for countries that ban military cartridges, its use in IPSC and other sports where its traits could be exploited and its historical use in the 1911 as an alternative to the 45 ACP in that pistol.
Unfortunately for the 38 Super, the 9 x 19 has a far greater grasp on the world.

From a ballistics point of view; it is interesting. From a sales and worldwide distribution point of view; there's probably not much more traction there.

It does have some cool history.

I'd never known this humble cartridge had such an interesting history! Thank you all for chipping in!

[wv109323]

There are few drawbacks to the cartridge. As originally designed it was suppose to headspace on a semi-rim. That was .011" on the barrel hood of the 1911 platform. It did not work due to excessive tolerances between barrels and ammo manufacturers. The semi-rimmed case is not ideal when stacked in a single stack magazine. I have a Commander that I replaced the barrel in to get the catridge to headspace on the case mouth.
There are 3 versions of aftermarket cases.
With the availability of 9mm and .45 acp brass, why go to a rare cartridge. Plus ammo costs far exceeds that of 9 or 45 acp.

[ReloaderFred]

Sometimes a person just likes the unusual. I'm one of those, which is exemplified by my choice of the .41 Magnum for a duty caliber back when we were allowed actual choices based on experience, and not on whizz kid bean counters who didn't know squat about firearms. Today, some of my favorites are the .22 Remington Jet, .38 Super +P, 9x21, 9x23 Winchester, 9x25 Dillon, 357 Sig, 10mm and .41 Magnum in handgun calibers. In rifle calibers, I'm particularly fond of my .45-120 Sharps and the .218 Bee. Even though I have more modern calibers, I prefer to hunt elk with an 1895 Marlin in .45-70, but I also sometimes take my Marlin in .444 Marlin along, just because. I load 34 different calibers, and some only occasionally, but I enjoy shooting them all.

The .38 Super has a following, albeit small in comparison to the more common calibers. Who knows what the future has in store for it. I remember back when I got my first 10mm handgun, I was told it was a "dead caliber", but it's making a pretty strong come back these days, with manufacturers supporting it more and more. Perhaps that will happen someday with the .38 Super.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, in the early 1960's, 9x19 ammunition in the U. S. was made from unobtanium, but look at it today. It's everywhere, as evidenced by the five gallon buckets of it stashed in corners of my shop. In about 1963, that was unthinkable.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[leadeye]

I'm a fan of it's predecessor, the 38 ACP. Collecting old Colt Autos, like the 1902 and Pocket Hammer and keeping them shooting. The Lee 358 RNFP 125 grain out of a six cavity makes an excellent choice of bullet.

[yovinny]

I've for years heard the horror stories of early guns not being able to hit a barn from inside it,,, yet all 3 of my early examples seem to be as capable as most any 9mm Ive owned..

I wonder how the Bullseye shooters ever managed to get the rim headspacing 38 special S&W 52 auto to shoot itty bitty tiny groups...or any other rimmed cartridge auto pistol for that matter... ?

Just color me skepitcal....

[Petrol & Powder]

……..

I wonder how the Bullseye shooters ever managed to get the rim headspacing 38 special S&W 52 auto to shoot itty bitty tiny groups...or any other rimmed cartridge auto pistol for that matter... ?

Just color me skepitcal....

Because it had a large rim and it was easier to get it to consistently headspace.

[Walks]

ReloaderFred,
I grew up in LA in the 1960's.
Just can't conceive of having trouble finding 9MM Luger. We had 3lb coffee cans full of it. And Boxer primed too. The 1st bullet I ever cast was a #356242, out of a 1cav Lyman mold. The 1st primers I ever seated were 9mm using a 310 tong tool.
I remember going on the annual "ammo shopping" expedition with My Dad. Where we bought ammo just for the brass. Empty brass cases for reloading being very hard to find.
I can remember My Dad and brothers carrying big stacks of ammo from Cole's Sporting Goods in Inglewood. And unloading the Station Wagon one night after Dad came home from New York Hardware in Downtown LA, cases of ammo.

We shot a lot. And cast/reloaded everything.
Of course for all I know that 9mm Luger could have been special ordered. The Norma ammo for surplus military guns certainly was.

[megasupermagnum]

There are multiple calibers recently that still confuse me on their popularity. 38 super is a very cool cartridge that allows a sizable boost over 9mm luger, and still maintains the magazine capacity. I think the only mark against the super, is that it has not been utilized in a smaller handgun. 1911's and the like are where you see 38 super. It offers a boost in magazine capacity over 45 acp, while still having good performance. Compare that to 357 SIG, which is the most baffling cartridge I've seen come out in my time. It offers no magazine boost, it holds the exact same as 40 S&W. 357 SIG is nothing but a lesser performing 40 S&W, and there is no reason to even compare it to 9mm luger.

Yet, 38 super has maintained little following, mostly in shooting competitions, while the 357 SIG has exploded in popularity for seemingly no reason many years after its introduction. Sometimes cartridge popularity has no real reason.

[RJM52]

I've for years heard the horror stories of early guns not being able to hit a barn from inside it,,, yet all 3 of my early examples seem to be as capable as most any 9mm Ive owned..

I wonder how the Bullseye shooters ever managed to get the rim headspacing 38 special S&W 52 auto to shoot itty bitty tiny groups...or any other rimmed cartridge auto pistol for that matter... ?

Just color me skepitcal....

You may want to try shooting a Super with a new style chamber to see the difference. My first Super was a 1969 and ran 3' groups at 50 yards...that is FEET. The BarSto replacement barrel ran 3" with the same box of ammo. The Commander I bought at the same time was 18"...it went down to 3.5"...

And I believe you are correct in your observation that your Supers seem to shoot about the same as your 9mms...but I have to ask at what range and how big are the groups... At 10-20 yards you may not see much difference.

As to the S&W Model 52 and Colt Gold Cups in .38 Special...the .38 Special has a substancial rim to headspace on..the Super does not. Depending on the size of the chamber and the size of the cases being fired, the Super rim would often dislodge from the tiny headspace shelf when the primer was struck by the firing pin. This would cause the round to be pushed slightly up into the chamber as the bullet was leaving the cartridge and the case would then slam back against the breechface and into the over extended firing pin. The firing pin would then pierce the primer... Happened with both my guns before the barrels were replaced. Also the .38 Special is only operating at 15K PSI vs. 35K PSI of the Super...

Bob

[VariableRecall]

You may want to try shooting a Super with a new style chamber to see the difference. My first Super was a 1969 and ran 3' groups at 50 yards...that is FEET. The BarSto replacement barrel ran 3" with the same box of ammo. The Commander I bought at the same time was 18"...it went down to 3.5"...

And I believe you are correct in your observation that your Supers seem to shoot about the same as your 9mms...but I have to ask at what range and how big are the groups... At 10-20 yards you may not see much difference.

As to the S&W Model 52 and Colt Gold Cups in .38 Special...the .38 Special has a substancial rim to headspace on..the Super does not. Depending on the size of the chamber and the size of the cases being fired, the Super rim would often dislodge from the tiny headspace shelf when the primer was struck by the firing pin. This would cause the round to be pushed slightly up into the chamber as the bullet was leaving the cartridge and the case would then slam back against the breechface and into the over extended firing pin. The firing pin would then pierce the primer... Happened with both my guns before the barrels were replaced. Also the .38 Special is only operating at 15K PSI vs. 35K PSI of the Super...

Bob

Having a semi-rimmed automatic cartridge is such a wacky design choice considering the mostly "rimless" brass we see in autos these days. Considering the rim, that would only be single stack magazine friendly, and probably warrants the use of .38 Super in various 1911 styled pistols.

I'd rather not be the engineer tasked with the duty of creating a .38 Super pistol that sports a double stack magazine for modern standards of capacity. Would a double stack magazine for rimmed cartridges even be possible without some technical wizardry? A serpentine path for the rims to ride on? A hairpin turn in the path the bullets rest in the magazine?

[Petrol & Powder]

When semi-auto pistols were first being developed, there was some experimentation that included semi-rimmed casings. It took a little while to realize the headspacing on the case mouth was a better way to accomplish that task but some cartridges had already been developed and widely accepted; so we ended up with a couple of different styles. (semi-rimmed and rimless).
The 32 ACP is also a semi-rimmed casing and also developed by Browning. The 32 ACP was/is an extraordinarily popular cartridge in Europe and the Americas. It may be a bit of an apples & oranges comparison between the 32 ACP and the 38 Super but the point is both cartridges have some historical basis for that semi rimmed design.
In any event, the consensus was that headspacing on the case mouth was a better way to go and that became the dominate system.
The rim of a semi-rimmed casing is so small that rim lock is rarely an issue.

The 38 Super has a slight case capacity advantage over a 9 x 19 but the performance gap between those cartridges isn't that large. It's only when you start exploiting that small difference in capacity (like when trying to "make major") that the extra case capacity becomes a real advantage.
Can a 38 Super push a slightly heavier bullet, slightly faster than a 9mm Luger ? Sure.
Do some people love the 38 Super and have guns chambered in 38 Super that shoot very well? Absolutely !
Did the 38 Super enjoy a little bit of "America" home field advantage ? No doubt.
Do the few positive traits of the 38 Super overcome the 9mm Luger's massive WORLDWIDE acceptance ? NOPE, not even a little bit.
It's VHS tape verses Betamax, One became the standard and one didn't.

[Petrol & Powder]

...... Compare that to 357 SIG, which is the most baffling cartridge I've seen come out in my time. It offers no magazine boost, it holds the exact same as 40 S&W. 357 SIG is nothing but a lesser performing 40 S&W, and there is no reason to even compare it to 9mm luger.

Yet, 38 super has maintained little following, mostly in shooting competitions, while the 357 SIG has exploded in popularity for seemingly no reason many years after its introduction. Sometimes cartridge popularity has no real reason.

Please allow me to shed a little light on this.
When you look at the 357 SIG in terms of magazine capacity, I see exactly what you are driving at.
The parent case is a 40 S&W, so if all else is equal, magazine capacity will be identical between 40 S&W and 357 SIG.
However, the magazine capacity isn't everything and the magazine capacity of most pistols chambered in 40 S&W is pretty large. (generally well over 10 rounds in a full sized pistol).

As for labeling a 357 SIG a ".....lesser performing 40 S&W..." - I'm not on board with that.
The bottleneck 357 SIG cartridge allows a relatively short cartridge to push a 125gr 9mm bullet considerably faster than a 9mm Luger cartridge. It isn't 357 Magnum velocities with a 125 grain bullet but it is getting close.

I live in Virginia and the Virginia State Police adopted the 357 SIG a long time ago. They seem to be very pleased with the round. I've talked to troopers and agents and across the board, they like the cartridge.
Now they don't have to pay for their ammunition and they aren't reloading it, so they have a different perspective than say members of this forum. Popularity of a cartridge has a lot to do with the circumstances of the end user.

[chutesnreloads]

Just curious how many here have seen a 38 Super fired in a 38 Special revolver?
Know it will work at least a few shots in one. "Hey, does this trigger seem hard to pull to you?"
Lord please look out for the young and uninformed...

[10-x]

IIRC, there was plenty of E. European 99 mm imported in late 60’s-70’s. Meant for sub guns but worked in Hi Powers, shot lots of it, just had to clean very well.
52 Smiths are more accurate than 99% of those that shoot them, wish had bought one back in 90’s for 700, sigh.

[dverna]

P&P's post #31, is a perfect synopsis of the .38 Super.

For factory self-defense ammunition, the choice of .38 Super offerings is limited. Some do not want to shoot reloads for SD. This lack of options would not be a concern if reloading, and you are comfortable using reloads for SD.

Every manufacturer of SD ammunition offers a slew of loadings for the 9mm. And, back before Covid and "peaceful protests", 9mm practice ammunition was about $200/1000. So the owner of a 9mm can get cheap practice ammunition. If you are a reloader, once fired brass is(was?) $30/1000....I have not bought any in a while.

Almost everyone here is in a very select subset of gun owners. Most cast, and everyone reloads. Some are competitive shooters. Manufactures do not cater to us. It is the "great unwashed" of the gun world that buy most firearms and ammunition.

To the OP, keep that in mind when evaluating answers. This thread provided an excellent history of this round by people with a vast amount of knowledge and experience. Even "experts" can reach different conclusions depending on their particular needs and "likes". Kind of reminds of whether we should wear masks or not...LOL.

The .38 Super is a good cartridge that does not fit the needs of most people. It is why your gun shop has boxes of ammunition on the shelf with little to keep them company.

[VariableRecall]

P&P's post #31, is a perfect synopsis of the .38 Super.

For factory self-defense ammunition, the choice of .38 Super offerings is limited. Some do not want to shoot reloads for SD. This lack of options would not be a concern if reloading, and you are comfortable using reloads for SD.

Every manufacturer of SD ammunition offers a slew of loadings for the 9mm. And, back before Covid and "peaceful protests", 9mm practice ammunition was about $200/1000. So the owner of a 9mm can get cheap practice ammunition. If you are a reloader, once fired brass is(was?) $30/1000....I have not bought any in a while.

Almost everyone here is in a very select subset of gun owners. Most cast, and everyone reloads. Some are competitive shooters. Manufactures do not cater to us. It is the "great unwashed" of the gun world that buy most firearms and ammunition.

To the OP, keep that in mind when evaluating answers. This thread provided an excellent history of this round by people with a vast amount of knowledge and experience. Even "experts" can reach different conclusions depending on their particular needs and "likes". Kind of reminds of whether we should wear masks or not...LOL.

The .38 Super is a good cartridge that does not fit the needs of most people. It is why your gun shop has boxes of ammunition on the shelf with little to keep them company.

Visited the LGS and there are still about 20+ boxes of .38 Super with a large sign that says "NOT 38 SPECIAL". These days even the 10mm is cleaned off the shelf.

[RJM52]

Yes, I have shot .38 Super in .38 Special revolvers...one was a S&W Model 36 snubbie... It works just fine but that said not all .38 Super ammo will chamber. The only brand I have tried that will is the Winchester Silvertip. From what I have read one of the imported brands will but none of the others I have tried did.

The Super rim not being as thick as the .38 Special creates a little too much headspace but from the few cylinder fulls I have tried did not create any misfired. I also have three S&W revolvers that have extra cylinders that were rechambered and machined for moon clips to take .38 Super.

As to the statement above about not having very many defensive rounds to choose from, how many does one need. CorBon, Buffalo Bore, Underwood, Georgia Arms, Reed's and several others all make defensive ammo all which utilize the same bullets that many of the premier 9mm loads do...at 100-200 fps increase in velocity over 9mm.

The .357 SIG...if I was back in LE it is the round I would want to carry. Moderate recoil, lots of rounds and lots of power...whats not to like...

Bob

[MT Gianni]

357 Sig might be a better comparison than 9mm +P.

[dtknowles]

357 Sig might be a better comparison than 9mm +P.

9 x 23 Win and 357 Sig have the same performance - 125 gr. at 1450 fps. Some times it is the gun not the ammo that makes the difference. 9 x 23 Win should be the better choice as it does not have the short neck problem of the 357 Sig and is skinnier so for the same length mag should hold more rounds. The 9 x 23 needs the longer action so there are not has many guns that can work with it.
357 Sig.

[bowfin]

Both my son and I have Witness Elite Match .38 Supers. I haven't found an inaccurate load with either of them yet. VihtaVuori N105 powder is fantastic for this cartridge and make it leave the 9mm behind without high pressure signs. If anything, the case runs out of capacity before we reach maximum.

I will get hold of the iPad and upload some chronograph readings, groups, and loads.

[country gent]

Overall length of the 38 super limits it to the bigger pistols like 1911s and such they are to long to go into a high power, or 9mm sized grip frame. The 357 sig 40 S&W 45 gap are shorter cartridges to fit in a 9MM grip frame.

The 1911s in 38 spl are only capable of wadcutter loads only do to overall length.

Every one is so concered with capacity, safe action / double action and most of these wont allow the super. By a lot of the tacti crowd today cocked and locked is obsolete and unsafe. a 6-8 round pistol is obsolete. I have worked with the super for years in several 1911s. the federal Hydra shock load is effective on game animals. The few safety slugs Ive used were also very destructive. It is easy to load for, easy on powder. Shoots softer than some. Mine have all been accurate pistols.

Another plus to the super is on the range I dont have people trying to grab my brass LOL.

[megasupermagnum]

The .357 SIG...if I was back in LE it is the round I would want to carry. Moderate recoil, lots of rounds and lots of power...whats not to like...

Bob

The fact that you can have the exact same gun, with the exact same capacity in 40 s&w, and get a good boost in performance with less expensive ammo. Plus brass is everywhere, and could just about be collected with a big scoop shovel. That's just my opinion, but someone did bring up a good point on the 357 sig. Higher velocities with the SIG should allow better penetration through barriers. That's something that most of us outside law enforcement do not care about.

[Petrol & Powder]

You also should consider that not everyone is equally situated.

Not everyone shooting the 357 SIG is paying for their ammunition OR reloading.

[megasupermagnum]

Hey, I'd take whatever caliber someone gave me if ammo was free.

[Idaho45guy]

Hah! I know exactly what the OP is referring to when talking about .38 Super being left on the shelf. I was in the exact same gun shop and took a pic of the .38 Super ammo since they had to post a sign saying it wasn't .38 Special...

271733

[RJM52]

Just bought my first 1911 in .357 SIG...a SIG Nightmare Carry... Other than the SIX POUND ONE OUNCE CREEPY CRUDDY trigger pull it is excellent...and no longer made. Gave it to a smith I use and he installed a 5" SIG made .38 Super barrel and did a nice 3# 11 oz. trigger job...no more creeps...and runs like a top in both calibers. May even install Fusion 10mm and .40 S&W barrels.

Also have .357 barrels in a G40/4, G35/5 and 23/3.

...as reloading...not yet. Was lucky enough to be able to buy a whole bunch fairly inexpensively so until they are all gone don't have to load...just keep picking up brass.

Bob

[1006]

I believe that:
The 10mm, 38 Super, Winchester 9x23, and 45 ACP were all designed with a 1911 in mind.

Their length allows them to feed reliably in a standard non ramped barrel when fired in a 1911, and their magazines do not require any extra spacers.

The 10mm, and 9x23 have extra brass strength built into their design to allow for higher pressure in an unsupported chamber, common to the standard 1911 non ramped barrel.

[oso]

Having a semi-rimmed automatic cartridge is such a wacky design choice considering the mostly "rimless" brass we see in autos these days. Considering the rim, that would only be single stack magazine friendly, and probably warrants the use of .38 Super in various 1911 styled pistols.

I'd rather not be the engineer tasked with the duty of creating a .38 Super pistol that sports a double stack magazine for modern standards of capacity. Would a double stack magazine for rimmed cartridges even be possible without some technical wizardry? A serpentine path for the rims to ride on? A hairpin turn in the path the bullets rest in the magazine?

Our family has had no problem with the 38 Super in any of various double stack magazines.
We have seen problems with the tapered 9mm Luger nose diving at the top of full magazines. By the way the 9mm Luger does have a tiny semi-rim.
No need to believe me. https://web.archive.org/web/20170424200017/http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/9mm-automatic-better-9mm-cartridge/

[1006]

They seem to run quite well in double stack mags in 1911 style guns, certainly as well as the 9mm in a 1911. The 9mm case is quite a bit larger at the base than the mouth.

[pietro]

The .38 Super came to be because some countries prohibit handguns in the same chambering/caliber as their military handguns (generally 9mm Parabellum).

Those countries typically don't have .40S&W & .45ACP ammo readily available, never mind the guns to fire those cartridges.

The Super allowed those folks who wanted a 1911-type 9mm to have an autoloader on the same frame.


.

[megasupermagnum]

Having a semi-rimmed automatic cartridge is such a wacky design choice considering the mostly "rimless" brass we see in autos these days. Considering the rim, that would only be single stack magazine friendly, and probably warrants the use of .38 Super in various 1911 styled pistols.

I'd rather not be the engineer tasked with the duty of creating a .38 Super pistol that sports a double stack magazine for modern standards of capacity. Would a double stack magazine for rimmed cartridges even be possible without some technical wizardry? A serpentine path for the rims to ride on? A hairpin turn in the path the bullets rest in the magazine?

Most 38 super guns used in competition are double stack. That's where 38 super is popular currently. No wizardry required, 32 acp is also a semi-rim, and also works great in a double stack.

[Kosh75287]

But when the "P" in IPSC became silent...

This made me burst into laughter. It couldn't be more true! Thanks for THAT one!

[dtknowles]

Hah! I know exactly what the OP is referring to when talking about .38 Super being left on the shelf. I was in the exact same gun shop and took a pic of the .38 Super ammo since they had to post a sign saying it wasn't .38 Special...

271733

I cringe at people shoot this ammo in some older 38 Specials, it certainly exceeds 38 Special SAAMI specs but should be fine in .357 mag.

Tim

[dtknowles]

I believe that:
The 10mm, 38 Super, Winchester 9x23, and 45 ACP were all designed with a 1911 in mind.

Their length allows them to feed reliably in a standard non ramped barrel when fired in a 1911, and their magazines do not require any extra spacers.

The 10mm, and 9x23 have extra brass strength built into their design to allow for higher pressure in an unsupported chamber, common to the standard 1911 non ramped barrel.

I might note that the 1911 is not the only gun that can handle the longer ammo. At the risk of raising the ire of the 1911 crowd. The EAA Witness is a wonderful gun that can handle the longer ammo and has a more modern trigger the 1911 and has the option of a single action trigger if you want it.

I have a Witness in 9mm on the shorter frame with the single action only trigger. These are quality guns.

This is an awesome gun.

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2012/12/eaa-witness-elite-stock-ii-38-super/#:~:text=Ready%20to%20race%20out%20of%20the%20box% 2C%20the,barrel%20that%20locks%20up%20tightly%20wi th%20the%20slide.

Tim

[megasupermagnum]

I like the Witness. It is a good option for a lower priced 10mm auto that can also be very accurate. I think the 1911 makes a better hunting gun. I like the heft and trigger better on the 1911. The big drawback for me, is I don't like the safety's of the 1911. I wish someone would make one of the same basic design, but ditch the thumb safety, and make it a DA/SA. I could take or leave the grip safety. I guess most people call that a SIG P220 though, which I do enjoy mine.

[dtknowles]

I like the Witness. It is a good option for a lower priced 10mm auto that can also be very accurate. I think the 1911 makes a better hunting gun. I like the heft and trigger better on the 1911. The big drawback for me, is I don't like the safety's of the 1911. I wish someone would make one of the same basic design, but ditch the thumb safety, and make it a DA/SA. I could take or leave the grip safety. I guess most people call that a SIG P220 though, which I do enjoy mine.

I think they make the Witness in a steel frame if you want the heft and yes it would be hard to beat the 1911 trigger but if you make it DA/SA you will end up with a trigger like the Witness. The Witness has the thumb safety but if you buy the DA/SA version you can ignore the thumb safety.

The P220 is probably a great gun. I have never seen one in person. It looks a little ugly and it is only a single stack so mag capacity is limited. They discontinued the 38 super version.

Tim

[Kosh75287]

I'm a bit "standardized" in terms of calibers I shoot and for which I reload, but if I had the money, I'd probably own a double-stacked 1911 (2011?) in .38 Super. Another contributor on this site is using SAECO #383 140 gr. LSWCs pushed to 1240 f/s, with apparently fine ( dare I say "super"?) results. That's good performance for nearly ANY application.
SOME day that there's no percentage in owning "off-beat" calibers, and yet we see the ammo on the shelves when all the "mainstream" fodder has evaporated. This makes me think my CZ-52 pistol wasn't a bad purchase, after all.

[Petrol & Powder]

The .38 Super came to be because some countries prohibit handguns in the same chambering/caliber as their military handguns (generally 9mm Parabellum).


.

I don't think the 38 Super "Came to be ....." due to some counties that prohibit civilian possession of military calibers but I think it would be fair to say that people in those counties exploited the fact that 38 Super was not restricted.

The 38 ACP (on which the 38 Super is based) pre-dates the 9 x 19 by a couple of years. In addition, many of the laws restricting private possession of military cartridges didn't come about until after the creation of the 38 Super. So the 38 Super couldn't have been created to circumvent laws that that didn't exist.
It is fair to say those laws did later help keep the 38 Super alive.

[VariableRecall]

Most 38 super guns used in competition are double stack. That's where 38 super is popular currently. No wizardry required, 32 acp is also a semi-rim, and also works great in a double stack.

I guess more technically minded engineers figured it out!

[salvadore]

there is a boat\load of misinformation concerning the super 38 here, I salute post #10. I purchased my plain jane Colt 1911 last year and used Brian Pierce's loads in handloader, settled on a 124 grain power pistol load that averages 1330fps. It's a sweetie and while the .357 Sig out does it, I don't know what reloading problems may be. Accuracy is not an issue, before the frenzy, brass was readily available. Replaced the mainspring housing with a steel checkered one and a lanyard device and the hammer with a WWII hammer. My bubba trigger job left me with a very nice light pull. My super 38 is primo, and a favorite.

[RJM52]

The SUPER .38 was introduced by Colt in .38 ACP in 1929 as a law enforcement handgun to be able to better penetrate the bodies of the new fangled automobiles and the body armor being worn by gangsters at the time. By the early 1930s the velocity had been boosted to 1300 fps but the name on the box was still .38 ACP. It was also advertised heavily to sportsman as a "handgun round that could kill anything" because at the time it was one of the highest velocity handgun rounds made. Ammo was all 130 grain but there were both FMJ and HPs available. No clue why but the HPs were eventually discontinued.

Have heard that some double-stack Supers had problems feeding the standard semi-rimmed case which is why the SuperComp case came to be. I've never owned a DS so I have no experience with it...

mega...Colt did make a .38 Super 1911 style handgun for a while that you may have liked...it was called the Double Eagle... Don't see many for sale any more...

Bob

[rintinglen]

Dang it. the 38 ACP dates to 1899 and was invented by John Browning for his pistol that became the Colt 1900 and later 1902 and 1903. It was an attempt to provide the military with a semi-automatic pistol of equivalent caliber to the then standard 38 Long Colt used by the U.S. Armed forces. It was updated when the slow selling, outdated Military models were discontinued and given a significant raise in pressure and powder charge, but initially at least, it was called the Super 38 and used the same 130 grain bullet and same case as the older cartridge. It was advertised as an outdoorsman's gun, "which has been hailed with unstinted appreciation by the Hunter of Big Game, the Trapper, the Explorer and Target Shooter." IT WAS NOT DESIGNED AS A POLICE FIRE ARM. That canard came from the fertile mind of some gun magazine writer, no doubt familiar with Texas Ranger Frank Hamer's use of one, but I have a 1938 Colt Catalog and had a 1931 as well, and neither mentioned a darned thing about the police. It was not designed as a Police Firearm, but rather a flatter shooting, lighter recoiling 1911 to sell more guns of a "modern" design.

[megasupermagnum]

mega...Colt did make a .38 Super 1911 style handgun for a while that you may have liked...it was called the Double Eagle... Don't see many for sale any more...

Bob

I never knew that, I'll keep my eye out.

[sixshot]

Just got my 1911 Rock Island 38 Super today & got to shoot it just before dark with a couple of test loads out the window of my jeep because it was starting to snow.
I started out with a 128 gr HP sized .356" because I didn't know whether to size them .355" or .356". I was surprised, the gun shot better than I thought it would for fixed sights & being a lower priced gun.
https://i.imgur.com/AoydINRh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Iw9ZnPjh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wbg42Oyh.jpg
Dick

[bruce drake]

RIA makes an excellent budget 1911.

[RJM52]

rintinglen....have to agree that it was advertised as a sportsmen's cartridge but a lot of police agencies adopted the guns... If you go to the Texas Ranger Hall of Fame there are a lot of Supers on display... They knew a good thing when the saw it...

[RJM52]

Dick..wait till you hit a Jack with one of those HPs...

[JMax]

My COVID project earlier this year was to take a Smith 8 shot 627 cylinder and ream it to take 38 Super and 9mm. I cast and PC lots of 9s it has become a constant companion on my range trips. I bring both super and 9s with me for shooting fun. Love the cartridge as it is more accurate than 9s in a 357 barrel but this weekend I will cast more bullets and size them larger than 356.

[John in WYO]

Picked up a used Colt 04540T .38 Super Lightweight Commander some months back.
.38 Super ammo or brass isn’t commonly found locally.
What modification would be necessary to run the rimless .38 Super Comp brass from Starline?
Tweaking the extractor is all I can think of.
Guess I have to buy another set of dies, ....��

[1006]

The extractor is the only thing you need to tune. It may run fine on 38 Super Comp without any modification.

Starline sells 38 Super brass. No you will not likely see a benefit in changing.

[rintinglen]

rintinglen....have to agree that it was advertised as a sportsmen's cartridge but a lot of police agencies adopted the guns... If you go to the Texas Ranger Hall of Fame there are a lot of Supers on display... They knew a good thing when the saw it...

Name one agency that ever adopted the 38 Super and I'll catch a crow and eat it.

That a few individual officers bought one and carried it on duty when so allowed is indisputable, but to the best of my knowledge this is just a case of aficionados making a case where there is none to be had. No U.S. law enforcement agency of any size ever adopted the 38 super. For the first 20 years of it's existence, it averaged about 3,600 guns a year in sales, for the first 40 years, just about 5,000 a year were produced. It modern (post 1980 guns) it is as good as just about anything else you can stuff in a 1911, though in my experience the 45 ACP is more reliable. Unless you need (want) a 20 round magazine in an STI, the advantages touted for the Super 38 are of little or no value, save for the fun of reloading, and having, something different. I load 32 H&R, 327 Federal, 38 S&W, 9mm Largo, 9MM Browning Long and .303 Savage. But these are not mainstream, nor are they ever likely to be mainstream. They are fun. So is the 38 Super.

[evort]

I bought a Sig P220 38 Super (American magazine release) a few weeks ago. I'm working on loading some Acme and Bayou .356 150g SWC coated for it, should be fun. I made some dummies of varying length to make sure they chamber.

[RJM52]

...how do you like your crow....

It is a hard to find book but there is one called COLT's .38 SUPER The Production History. by Douglas Sheldon. Page 85:

Vermont Motor Vehicle Department (Highway Patrol). 25 pistols 1934. 6 more pistols in 1935 and seven more in 1937.

Burrlington, Vermont PD. 1936. Initial order was 31 pistols.

Escanaba, Mi. PD 1934

St. Louis PD...82 total pistols in 1934. They were in inventory till decommissioned in 1986

And these were just the orders that were factory engraved with the Department ID Number. There is no indication of orders from police departments that didn't have their guns engraved by the factory.

Other agencies receiving guns:
1933-1935: US Justice Department 200. Last shipment in 1935 was listed to the Fed. Bureau of Invest.

Many LE agencies, especially smaller ones, didn't have issue weapons because they could not afford it. So LEOs had to provide their own...

So while not many there were some...

Never say "never"...Bob

ps...I should not have said "a lot" of agencies adopted the gun...would have been more correct in saying they were often found in LE.

[John in WYO]

Found Dawson Precision sells an extractor that should work: Aftec

[rintinglen]

Does anyone have a recipe for crow?
I am dumfounded--my wife would leave out the founded--that any agency in the Depression would spend the big bucks (36.75) to buy a Super 38, when a perfectly good 38 Colt 38 revolver could be had for a third less. I did know, and ought to have remembered, that the FBI bought some back in the Dillinger days, though they were never an regular issue weapon, but like the Thompson SMG and the BAR, could be issued on an as needed basis.

[6thtexas]

If I ever get another 1911 I want a .38 Super, It used to be real popular in Mexico where "military calibers" were not allowed even for the local and state judicial police. Used to be a sporting goods store years ago in Brownsville TX that ordered .38 Super ammunition by the pallets and I would not drop dead to learn that 95% crossed the river. It also had some following with folks like the Texas Rangers in the early '30s. Frank Hamer was wearing a .38 Super for his sidearm when he disposed of Clyde Barrow, not his Colt SAA nor his S&W Triplelock. He carried the Super because in 1934 that was the only handgun cartridge that would reliably penetrate a car door of the period. Seem like I read somewhere that one reason S&W brought out the .357 was to compete with Colt's auto.

[Texas by God]

The first centerfire auto pistol i ever fired was a Star commercial model( not a 9mm Largo) .38 Super that belonged to my great aunts son. He was a character; a divorced airline pilot with a nice car with a Police folding stock 870, a 742 BDL 30-06, and the Star in the trunk when he traveled. He explained the pistol to me, showed me how to field strip it and clean it, then turned me loose with a double handful of cartridges to roam the farm. I noticed right away that it was loud and had some recoil to it! Despite my ringing ears, I did manage to kill a mud turtle and several mud catfish fingerlings swimming in a ball. It hooked me on 1911 type autos from then on, but being 10 years old, I had to wait for what seemed like forever before I got my first one. Not a .38 Super, but a Crown City Arms .45; it was that or a Llama because I couldn't afford a Colt.
It is a good cartridge, and we shot several in my brother's Ruger Security Six one day. I don't know if the Supers were on the small side or the Ruger chambers were on the large side, but it worked.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[uscra112]

http://www.crowbusters.com/recipes.html

[RJM52]

The .38 Super is still very popular in Mexico...mainly with drug dealers. The blog Boarderland Beat (now off-line) used to have a lot of after shootout pics with 1911s strune all over the place with silver grips on them...many were Supers.

Go over to GunBroker and look at all the $2K+ engraved Colts with Mexican themes... Also run .38 SUPER on ebay and see the $2-700 silver and gold grips that come up...and funny they look a lot like the grips in the pictures from "down South"...haven't seen one set at an IDPA match yet...

glen...even back in the 1930s LEOs knew the .38 Special was a "widow-maker". S&W came up with the .38-44 Heavy Duty shooting the .38 Special High Speed running a 158 grain lead or metal-piercing bullet to counter Colt's .38 ACP. Velocity was in the 1150 area depending on barrel length...then the SUPER .38 at 1300 fps and S&W again countered with the .357...but only in a REAL high dollar gun. That's why there are a lot of Heavy Duties out there with chambers lengthened to .357...way less expensive gun.

Bob

[Idaho45guy]

Was sorting through some .40 S&W range brass I ordered online and came across a shell with another skinnier and longer shell inside of it. Pulled it out and inspected it and it was a .38 Super shell. I thought it was pretty cool. First time I'd ever handled one.

[rintinglen]

Once I shoot a Crow or two, I am going to try the pan fried crow recipe.

However, I stand by my original assertion that the Super 38 was not originally intended to be a law enforcement handgun and was not designed with that in mind.

While Colt was manufacturing 37,835 Super 38's, the majority of which were shipped overseas per Kevin Williams in his article Uncommon but super: The Pre-WWII Colt Super .38 Automatic, they were manufacturing just about 250,000 38 Specials in the Official Police, New Service and Police Positive lines, while S&W was making just about the same number of M&P's in 38 special, as well as 30,000 odd 32-20's, 6,600 pre-war .357's and roughly 15,000 38-44's, not to mention a fair sized pile of I-frame 38 S&W and 32 S&W long's . I venture to say that there were probably more SAA's in law enforcement holsters than 38 Supers. It is an error to assert wide spread usage by police, or that law enforcement usage was a significant factor in the design of the Cartridge.

Likewise, I doubt seriously that the Super 38 had much to do with the development of the 357 Magnum, as neither Elmer Keith nor Phil Sharpe made mention of it in their writings, and they were the fellows who suggested that S&W develop a "magnum" 38. Certainly Major Wesson saw it as a hunting/outdoorsman weapon, though some Law Enforcement personnel were quick to adopt them. IIRC, J. Edgar Hoover got one of the first ones, and a goodly number of other Police type individuals bought them as well. However, the price assured that most were purchased by Hunters, and the well-to-do who fancied themselves as such.

[RJM52]

May I suggest Crow Pot Pie instead....I don't think you will like pan fried...it is going to be more than chewy...

[RJM52]

Was sorting through some .40 S&W range brass I ordered online and came across a shell with another skinnier and longer shell inside of it. Pulled it out and inspected it and it was a .38 Super shell. I thought it was pretty cool. First time I'd ever handled one.

...if you have never had one...you are missing something...


https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/gallery/80/full/95308.jpg

[beshears]

My Kimber and a Colt 1911 in 38 Super run both cases with no problem. I have found both mixed in my reloads and the guns never new the difference.

[Gunslinger1911]

I built a 38 Super off a cheap Auto Ord 45 acp - new slide, bbl and mags from Brownells.
Same as my 9mm boolets, size .358. Great shooter ! BIG muzzle flash with hot loads !
I have gotten 1450 f/s with a "certain 125g boolet and certain g powder" - nope, won't tell.
That's knocking on the door of the primo .357 mag 125 Rem "tulip point" .
I have been known to size down said rem 125 and load in the super - again, nope not tellin load data - safe in mine, maybe not in yours.
Gotta polish the heck out of the feed ramp, lots a exposed soft lead in that tulip point !
Maybe an "obsolete" round, but as shown in above pix, they are on the shelf !!!!!

[Hardcast]

I have not yet had time to read every post in this thread, but in case no one has mentioned it, you can go to Hicock45's channel on youtube and watch him shoot a Govt model 38 Super. IMHO, anyone who is interested but not shot a 38 Super, should watch this video.
I have seen it a couple times in the past, but I think I will watch it again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSevk49yokc

Edit: I skip through most of his jabber and watch the shooting part.

[Sailormilan2]

Comparing the 9mm to a 38 Super is like comparing a .308 Win to a 30-06. The smaller case of the 9mm makes it a bit better and more efficient with lighter bullets, while the larger case of the 38 Super does better heavier bullets and slower powders.
For those with a 1911 in .357 Sig, I think one would be better off ditching the 40 cal magazines , which limits bullet length, and go with a 10mm magazine. Then gets some od the Saeco 383 style bullets. Their bullet design would let them work very will with the larger capacity 357 Sig case and slower powders. If I can get 1350+ fps using that bullet in my 38 super, I'm confident that the 357 Sig case would do even better.

[Hardcast]

Sailormilan2: Excellent post ! However, your statement about using a 10mm magazine with long loaded 357 SIGS and the Saeco 383 will only apply to 1911 style guns. And, there are very few 357 SIG chambered 1911s on the market. I have an S&W M&P 2.0 with 357 SIG barrel, but there are no 10mm magazines for this gun. Everything you said about the 38 Super, is right on IMHO.