Mixing glass or shrapnel in with alloy?

[emt1581]

Hollow point cast bullets don't compare to their jacketed cousins in defensive performance. But what if they had some glass shards or shrapnel sprinkled into the alloy...maybe in the nose of the mold? To be clear, I'm suggesting truncated cones or round nose molds. Only thing that would determine effectiveness is if the alloy was soft enough to deform a bit when penetrating clothing and make the steel/glass protrude even more through it's path. To be honest, not sure if/how it would work but has this idea been tried when casting and/or in gel?

Thanks!

[RU shooter]

Just how would one mix in that sorta thing . It would all float on top of the pot even with a ladle pour it would end up at the base of the bullet when poured into the mould . Imo not a good idea . A cast HP from the right alloy going the right speed to make it expand is hard to beat no gimmicks needed

[NoZombies]

I'm not sure what you mean that hollow point lead bullets don't compare to jacketed.

It takes some work to find a load that gives expansion in some of the lower velocity calibers, but generally JHP's have problems in those same calibers.

[joatmon]

Dang, this should be good. Don't think I want to go to trial on this!

[jimkim]

Cast them hard, patch or PC them and push them fast, and damage should be comparable. They just need to hold together and be doing 2200fps or faster when they hit flesh. At least that's what an "expert" claimed is the magic velocity for a big wound channel.

Sent from my VS880 using Tapatalk

[emt1581]

Just how would one mix in that sorta thing . It would all float on top of the pot even with a ladle pour it would end up at the base of the bullet when poured into the mould . Imo not a good idea . A cast HP from the right alloy going the right speed to make it expand is hard to beat no gimmicks needed

Maybe I could have used better wording. What I envisioned was taking an empty cavity, sprinkle in some glass/shrapnel, then pour some lead in on top of it. It'd cool to fast for the fragments to float to the top (which in this case would be the tail of the bullet).

As far as expansion....not from what I've seen and even when it expanded, it's not even remotely similar in wound channel capability as the copper jacket acting like claws against muscle/organ tissue. Now if I'm mistaken, please share or link to some pics of it.

Thanks

[emt1581]

I'm not sure what you mean that hollow point lead bullets don't compare to jacketed.

It takes some work to find a load that gives expansion in some of the lower velocity calibers, but generally JHP's have problems in those same calibers.


Lower velocity as in 9mm vs .223? or are you talking something different? From what I've seen JHP's do pretty well in gel.

[NoZombies]

Lower velocity as in 9mm vs .223? or are you talking something different? From what I've seen JHP's do pretty well in gel.

I meant like .38 special and .32 long. I've never had any difficulty getting things like 9mm HP's to expand.

Here's a little of one member's work with .45 ACP:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?410314-Expansion-without-fragmentation&p=5007330&viewfull=1#post5007330

[ShooterAZ]

Imagine what glass shards and shrapnel imbedded in cast boolits could do to a fine rifle or pistol barrel. Probably not a good idea IMHO.

[JohnSmiles]

Jacketed bullets are usually pure lead in a copper jacket. The jacket simply prevents lead fouling at higher velocities.
The lead HP itself would do just as much damage with or without the copper jacket, all other factors being the same.
Save yourself a potentially agonizing court battle and stick to the basics.
At least until the zombies appear....

[emt1581]

Imagine what glass shards and shrapnel imbedded in cast boolits could do to a fine rifle or pistol barrel. Probably not a good idea IMHO.

A modern gun that's barrel allows the nose of a bullet to touch the sides of the barrel?

[emt1581]

I meant like .38 special and .32 long. I've never had any difficulty getting things like 9mm HP's to expand.

Here's a little of one member's work with .45 ACP:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?410314-Expansion-without-fragmentation&p=5007330&viewfull=1#post5007330

Appreciate the link. I didn't see any gel blocks but admittedly I didn't read beyond the pics either. I see petals for sure which is definitely new to me. But I don't see anything pointy/sharp that would rip quite like copper jacketing.

Thanks!

[emt1581]

Jacketed bullets are usually pure lead in a copper jacket. The jacket simply prevents lead fouling at higher velocities.
The lead HP itself would do just as much damage with or without the copper jacket, all other factors being the same.
Save yourself a potentially agonizing court battle and stick to the basics.
At least until the zombies appear....

So you're saying the jacket provides no real advantage to organ/tissue damage over cast? I'd love to see some gel tests that compare traditional defense JHP side by side with cast HP in regard to the wound channel.

[Bloodman14]

That has got to be the the most legally dangerous and morally irresponsible question I have ever seen posted on a public forum. Can you possibly be considering doing such a thing?! This is tantamount to premeditation, and will land you behind bars for the rest of your life if you were to deploy such ammunition in a handload. For the most part, lawyers are NOT our friends; an anti-gun lawyer would have a field day with this. I am not suggesting banning the OP, but, I would definitely delete this entire thread before it gets too far.

[porthos]

i don't think that you would find a lawyer to defend you in court

[country gent]

Old technologies will aid in casts performance. A paper patched soft lead hollow point bullet will perform very well at moderate velocities. Casting bullets to fragment also works. Another might be to add a buckshot pellet to the hollow point.

When a bullet fragments then the pieces not only open more but travel in a farther radius. a 100 grn bullet that fragments into several pieces will produce a better wound channel. Think bout the glasser slugs with a jacket and shot core.

[emt1581]

That has got to be the the most legally dangerous and morally irresponsible question I have ever seen posted on a public forum. Can you possibly be considering doing such a thing?! This is tantamount to premeditation, and will land you behind bars for the rest of your life if you were to deploy such ammunition in a handload. For the most part, lawyers are NOT our friends; an anti-gun lawyer would have a field day with this. I am not suggesting banning the OP, but, I would definitely delete this entire thread before it gets too far.

I asked about the logistics of it. I don't have a use for such an animal personally. I carry JHP in most of my carry guns, which are specifically designed to do exactly what I was aiming at logistically with the question. Save for Jersey, I'm not aware of anywhere in my AO that pitches much of a fit about JHP's legally speaking. A good shoot is a good shoot in the court cases I've sat in on. My hopes are this, at the very least, continues to be responses on why this is a bad idea for logistical/functional reasons instead of continuing on the route of legality.

[emt1581]

Old technologies will aid in casts performance. A paper patched soft lead hollow point bullet will perform very well at moderate velocities. Casting bullets to fragment also works. Another might be to add a buckshot pellet to the hollow point.

When a bullet fragments then the pieces not only open more but travel in a farther radius. a 100 grn bullet that fragments into several pieces will produce a better wound channel. Think bout the glasser slugs with a jacket and shot core.

That pellet idea is interesting, how would that work in practice though...getting the pellet in place?

EDIT: Also, designing the cast bullet to fragment, how is that done? Haven't seen any molds that talk about it.

Thanks!

[bedbugbilly]

If it were even possible, if used in a SD round, I would like to hear your defense for doing it when a team of lawyers representing the individual you used it on - or his surviving family, sues you, which is a very common thing. Even if ruled a justifiable shooting - the bullets will be examined and eyebrows would be raised. Not unlike why explosive rounds were banned by the Geneva Convention. Just sayin' . . . .

[emt1581]

If it were even possible, if used in a SD round, I would like to hear your defense for doing it when a team of lawyers representing the individual you used it on - or his surviving family, sues you, which is a very common thing. Even if ruled a justifiable shooting - the bullets will be examined and eyebrows would be raised. Not unlike why explosive rounds were banned by the Geneva Convention. Just sayin' . . . .

Once again, I was asking about logistics, not legality.

[mehavey]

What I envisioned was taking an empty cavity, sprinkle in some glass/shrapnel . . . Don't even think about it,
...much less post in a public forum.
The Internet never forgets.
Drop it now.
;):coffee:

[emt1581]

Don't even think about it,
...much less post in a public forum.
The Internet never forgets.
Drop it now.
;):coffee:

And now I see why no one knows the answer in regard to doing it. Never heard of constructive possession (in regard to some sort of intent to illegally weaponize a bullet) being used even remotely close to a cast bullet topic but damn it if I didn't do it!!

Ok, fair enough. I'll accept the lack of a straight answer due to everyone fearing the question.

[mehavey]

:drinks:

[emt1581]

:drinks:

HEY! Careful with those glasses!! We don't need anyone calling the internet police on us if one of them breaks and we also have bullet molds!!!

... :mrgreen:

[Winger Ed.]

I wouldn't bother with all that.

If ya want a hollow point to open up more: cast it with a softer alloy, powder coat it, and push it faster.
If that doesn't get ya where you want to go--- do the same with a bigger case & larger caliber.

[mehavey]

If ya want a hollow point to open up more: cast it with
a softer alloy, powder coat it, and push it faster.
See http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?409893-Pure-Lead-amp-PC&p=5001471&viewfull=1#post5001471

[longbow]

If you want an HP boolit that fragments that's easy... cast it hard!

I have the Mihec version of the H&G #503 with 3 HP pins, one being penta. When cast from ACWW and shot into water jugs or expansion testing media the entire nose blows off leaving only the base at the bottom of the HP cavity. Granted, my testing was done from a .44 mag. Marlin so velocity somewhat higher than handgun velocity but I suspect any large cavity HP boolit cast hard would do very much the same at handgun velocity and close range which is what SD is.

Also, for rifle but the Ness safety bullet was the same idea. They were to be cast from brittle alloy so they simply exploded on contact with about anything minimizing the chances of ricochet.

Easy enough to test for your gun, just get some hard cast HP boolits and try them out.

As for the glass/shrapnel idea, I'll agree that it isn't likely to work and you risk the possibility of damage to your barrel if it doesn't stay where you want it. You would need lead to "soak" through the "stuff" you put in the mould to hold it together then you would also be depending on expansion to expose those sharp edges. Much easier I think to use a large cavity/thin wall HP boolit cast from hard alloy to fragment and leave a ragged nose on the remaining boolit to tear through or use a properly designed HP for expansion at your velocity and of course cast from a malleable alloy to ensure expansion without fragmentation.

Just my opinion.

Longbow

[M-Tecs]

I haven't seen so much misinformation and lack of understanding of the mechanics of wound channels since the MSM convinced the sheeple that Winchester Black Talons cuts like a buzz saw.

The one area that does have some merit if increased fragmentation. That can be done with various bullet designs like the Glasser Safety Slugs or relatively heavy materials like copper/brass, lead pellets., tungsten or depleted uranium. Light items like glass not so much.

The how and why's of wound channels here.

https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/ballistic-resources/terminal-ballistics#:~:text=This%20wound%20channel%20is%20t he%20same%20diameter%20as,way%20and%20tries%20to%2 0absorb%20the%20bullet%E2%80%99s%20energy.

https://www.everydaymarksman.co/marksmanship/terminal-ballistics/

https://ammo.com/articles/handgun-wounding-factors-guide

http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf

[poppy42]

I don’t think putting glass shards in a cast bullet is logistically possible. As far as legal as others said I don’t see is there being any difference between doing that and making a mercury tipped bullet or one that was dipped in poison. A very bad idea to even attempt! Furthermore it probably shouldn’t even be discussed on an open forum!
As for Cast Bullets not expanding and not being effective for self defense, let’s not forget that arguably one of the best self defense rounds for 38 special is the so-called FBI load which was if I remember correctly 160 grain hollowpoint semi-wadcutter! Unless you’re talking about 38 special plus P ammunition it’s still in my opinion the best self defense round for 38 special! IMHO Discussions like this serve no purpose on this form

[Bloodman14]

It isn't the question we fear, emt1581, it's the answer. If this is an academic question, as someone said, 'try it and see'. As far as using them? I wouldn't.

[44Blam]

I remember "frangible rounds" back in the day. I don't even know if they make them anymore. I think that is what OP is thinking.
The frangible rounds were a copper jacket with a bunch of ceramic / glass inside so they were super light and would go really fast. They also wouldn't go through multiple layers of drywall. So, kind of apartment safe home defense.

I have no idea if this is still legal or legal wherever OP is...

Those are kind of a specific sort of round and don't really live in the same world as cast boolits...

[M-Tecs]

I remember "frangible rounds" back in the day. I don't even know if they make them anymore. I think that is what OP is thinking.
The frangible rounds were a copper jacket with a bunch of ceramic / glass inside so they were super light and would go really fast. They also wouldn't go through multiple layers of drywall. So, kind of apartment safe home defense.

I have no idea if this is still legal or legal wherever OP is...

Those are kind of a specific sort of round and don't really live in the same world as cast boolits...

That would be the Glaser Safety Slug

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2020/10/7/is-the-glaser-safety-slug-good-for-self-defense/

According to the Cor-Bon website, the Glaser Safety Slug “was designed in response to the possibility of having to use a handgun on an airplane by the Sky Marshals. The concerns at the time were over-penetration on soft tissue and ricochets on hard surfaces and possible excess penetration.” According to online sources, the Glaser was designed by Jack Canon, with the original loads produced under the banner of Deadeye Associates. In 2002 Cor-Bon purchased the company and has been manufacturing the ammunition ever since.

The Glaser Safety Slug, in its current form, is a bullet with a thin-copper jacket capped with a spherical, polymer tip that provides a bullet profile very similar to an FMJ (full-metal-jacket) projectile. Behind this polymer cap is the hollow core of the bullet, which is filled with either No. 6 lead shot (Safety Slug Silver) or No. 12 lead shot (Safety Slug Blue). When the Glaser Safety Slug—Blue or Silver—impacts soft tissue, the bullet ruptures immediately, releasing the lead shot. The jacket fragments will penetrate to between 1 to 4 inches, and the No. 12 shot will push as deep as 6 inches, with the No. 6 shot going as deep as 8, depending on the cartridge. The shot also radiates outward in a cone that can be as wide as 4 to 5 inches.

[Winger Ed.]

I remember "frangible rounds" back in the day. I don't even know if they make them anymore. .

I think I remember someone making a version of those to market for target shooting in lead free indoor ranges.
They were more or less copper powder compressed into something like a glorified dirt clod.

[M-Tecs]

https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/what-is-frangible-ammo/#:~:text=%20ammo%20is%20a%20training%20training%20 round%20designed,note%20the%20%E2%80%9Cfine%E2%80% 9D%20texture%20of%20the%20inner%20round.

https://www.nrafamily.org/articles/2020/6/19/frangible-ammunition-pros-cons-myths/

https://ammo.com/bullet-type/frangible

[wch]

[QUOTE=joatmon;5032384]Dang, this should be good. Don't think I want to go to trial on this![/QUO

You're right, the prosecutor would have you "cast" as a maniac.

[kevin c]

My understanding of the effectiveness of hunting bullets that put down animals immediately is that, excepting shots that hit brain or bone, it's related to energy transfer causing hydrostatic shock, and that a big meplat transfers the high kinetic energy of a fast moving and/or heavy bullet the best. I imagine self defense bullets would be subject to the same ballistic physical and physiologic parameters.

Pistol rounds being inherently underpowered compared to rifle bullets, mushrooming hollow point designs which effectively give the bullet a huge meplat are used to improve the energy dump. The petals are the result of the need for the jackets to split all around to let the soft lead core expand. The points on those petals were not the primary goal of the design, and, as far as I know, aren't contributing much to whether the round is going to be effective for its intended purpose. In other words, the "Black Talon" press may be not much more than marketing hype; if it was ever effective at all (and I don't know the data) I'd think it was the mushrooming of the bullet rather than any points "clawing at muscle/organ tissue".

So, as far as ballistics go, any bullet produced with the suggested additives doesn't strike me as useful for self defense. As far as practical production, it sounds problematic. As far as liability goes, it'd be indefensible. As far as ethics and morality go, I wouldn't touch it.

And as far as your language goes, it'd be way too easy for anybody unsympathetic to your curiosity to throw out the word "bloodthirsty".

[Edward]

I asked about the logistics of it. I don't have a use for such an animal personally. I carry JHP in most of my carry guns, which are specifically designed to do exactly what I was aiming at logistically with the question. Save for Jersey, I'm not aware of anywhere in my AO that pitches much of a fit about JHP's legally speaking. A good shoot is a good shoot in the court cases I've sat in on. My hopes are this, at the very least, continues to be responses on why this is a bad idea for logistical/functional reasons instead of continuing on the route of legality. With said ammo it will (NEVER) be a good shoot and yup delete this crap !/Ed

[Edward]

And now I see why no one knows the answer in regard to doing it. Never heard of constructive possession (in regard to some sort of intent to illegally weaponize a bullet) being used even remotely close to a cast bullet topic but damn it if I didn't do it!!

Ok, fair enough. I'll accept the lack of a straight answer due to everyone fearing the question.

You got the answer consistently the same ,the truth is it is a stupid question !!!!!!!!!!!!/Ed

[jonp]

Just how would one mix in that sorta thing . It would all float on top of the pot even with a ladle pour it would end up at the base of the bullet when poured into the mould . Imo not a good idea . A cast HP from the right alloy going the right speed to make it expand is hard to beat no gimmicks needed

is that true? If you put the glass into the mold first I think the lead is heavy enough to keep it in the nose. I don't think that it would be worth the effort, though

As for the legality in court if forced to use one in a self defense scenario, who actually knows since no-one I'm aware of has been prosecuted beyond the legal standard in the "reloaded ammo" scenario despite dire warnings to the contrary. I can't see much difference between casting solids or making HP's as you are taking an extra step there, too. As for me, I would probably try it just to see if it could work but i wouldn't carry such rounds myself as I can't see cast not being up to the job of disabling someone enough for you to escape the situation.

[Lloyd Smale]

just coat them with alox. Even a non lethal hit would be about impossible to prevent from getting infected.

[Castaway]

I don’t see where logistics enters this inane concept. There’s no procurement, warehousing, or transportation of men, material or equipment involved. An ill conceived idea, not thought through in either the making of the bullet, or application; based on the false premise a lead bullet doesn’t expand.

[emt1581]

With said ammo it will (NEVER) be a good shoot and yup delete this crap !/Ed

Ok, since your comment was something no one else shared in the two pages prior....how would this be any different from specifically designed defensive ammo including the cast HP, cast fragmenting, and JHP rounds in your legal experience?

As for the thread, mods can feel free to lock it or delete it.

[Plate plinker]

A crappy court appointed one after the first leech takes all the money this fella has.


i don't think that you would find a lawyer to defend you in court

[44MAG#1]

People, people, people keep responding to this keeps it alive.
Let it die a quite death.

[Hanzy4200]

I think people way overthink defensive projectiles. The reality is that in 98% of cases, you could use a plain RN bullet and achieve results. People tend to have a severe reaction to being shot, with anything. HP deliver the goods, but is it worth casting defensive loads? Buy one box of good defensive loads every year or so and you are set. Factory SD loads have two things most handloads don't. Flash suppressant powder, and sealed necks and primers. Your life is worth $25 a year. I like Cor-Bon 124 gr +p's.

[GregLaROCHE]

This has been an interesting thread to read. Mostly individuals opinions and examples of why not to do it.

I feel the major ammunition producers have spent enormous amounts of time and money to develop the best legal/ethical projectiles possible, hoping to get an edge over the competition. People still try to build a better mouse trap, but very few ever do. If to want to make a hobby of developing a round that expands or even disintegrates the way you want, fine. Otherwise leave to engineering and experimenting of something new to those who have the big bucks to spend on development and testing.

[Eddie Southgate]

Dang, this should be good. Don't think I want to go to trial on this!

Exactly. Try explaining your need for this to a jury . Even OJ couldn't beat this one .

[JimB..]

Hollow point cast bullets don't compare to their jacketed cousins in defensive performance. But what if they had some glass shards or shrapnel sprinkled into the alloy...maybe in the nose of the mold? To be clear, I'm suggesting truncated cones or round nose molds. Only thing that would determine effectiveness is if the alloy was soft enough to deform a bit when penetrating clothing and make the steel/glass protrude even more through it's path. To be honest, not sure if/how it would work but has this idea been tried when casting and/or in gel?

Thanks!

All sorts of inventions have come from people asking dumb questions, so I tend to encourage them.

I think that you’ll find that a cast hollow point, or even a cast wadcutter, will be sufficient for your self defense purposes, so tinkering will yield, at best, marginal improvements.

Setting the legal advice aside, I think there are a number of practical issues with adding glass.

Glass weighs a lot less than lead, and you have no way to cast a balanced bullet, so in general it’s gonna go in some direction that’s not where you’re aiming. In all shooting it’s hits that count.

Adding glass to the mold will cause the lead to cool too fast, you won’t get good fill. If you overheat the mold and glass then the glass will float to the back of the mold.

Glass shards held together by lead will be weak and brittle, so brittle that they will likely fall apart in sizing or in the barrel under pressure. Adding a gas check might help, but you still run the risk of having it come apart when fired and be an ineffective cloud of crap that doesn’t go 10’.

Glass shards will not likely produce any extra wound damage. Maybe you’re picturing lots of little knives traveling at 1,200fps, but any that break off won’t have the mass to move through any material, and any that stay attached will be well behind the shock wave in front of the bullet that does the damage.

You can read the links above, but for a self defense round think about how to increase the diameter, how to retain mass, and how to increase velocity. Adding glass doesn’t do any of those things well.

[SweetMk]

just coat them with alox. Even a non lethal hit would be about impossible to prevent from getting infected.

What do the Russians use? Do they coat their umbrella tips with Liquid Alox? [smilie=1:

[Doughty]

Talk about "mountain out of a molehill." In my opinion, a gross over reaction to a simple question. Reminds me of the big hullabaloo in the '70s about hollow point or "dum dum" bullets in pistol ammo. Oh the horror of it. Or "black Talons? The sky is falling. The OP is basically talking about a frangible bullet, or a least a frangible nose bullet. Is it the use of the word "glass" that has setoff so many? How about if he had used ceramic particles? Or tungsten particles? Or copper particles? Is it the use of the word "shrapnel?" That sounds like something that would be used in war. How terrible.

And yeah, "logistics" probably a poor choice of words for what he was meaning. As to the practicality of casting such a bullet, not that it couldn't be done, but in my opinion, too much effort for too little possible gain. But that's also how I feel about cast hollow point pistol bullets. Some might feel that way about casting any bullet. Or even reloading. Just buy factory ammo and be done with it.

I don't like the idea of something that is harder than steel going down a steel barrel. But what if it were powder coated, or even triple powder coated? Or paper patched, or,,,, something new?

One thing for sure, if I ever tried to market a new product, I would run it by the crew here to make sure I got the proper "spin":razz: on it.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Maybe I could have used better wording. What I envisioned was taking an empty cavity, sprinkle in some glass/shrapnel, then pour some lead in on top of it. It'd cool to fast for the fragments to float to the top (which in this case would be the tail of the bullet).

As far as expansion....not from what I've seen and even when it expanded, it's not even remotely similar in wound channel capability as the copper jacket acting like claws against muscle/organ tissue. Now if I'm mistaken, please share or link to some pics of it.

Thanks
the glass shards WILL float to the top, the solution is to pour them upside down :redneck:

[mdi]

Bullet expansion isn't the "do all-end all" for SD bullets. I wouldn't even hazard to guess the number of fatalities due to the old, fat and slow 230 gr 45 ACP load, or even farther back a .54 caliber ball at around 1,200 fps mv. For effectiveness on a living target (game or potential bad guys) I have always relied on bullet design/shape. A plus is a good designed bullet will work quite well at low and high velocities...

If the question was for theory, "jes wanna know", fine. But I read the OP as wanting the glass to do more damage/cutting as it enters flesh. I don't have to add any reasons not to (I don't buy the "extra persecution by prosecutors" as they don't need any real reason), but all in all not a good idea for practical reasons...

[waksupi]

I'd sure hate to explain that one in court,

[country gent]

Even the Black Talons were hammered for being overly destructive and a hazard to doctors ( the sharp petals cutting gloves and fingers) when they came out. The Silver tips also. almost all new technologies have been. How long was it before most police departments started issuing hollow points over the old round nose slugs.

While not easily doable as the OP asks There have been several attempts to improve effectiveness of small arms ammo with expansion, limited penetration and other things. The skived jacket on early ammo was a big start. The glassers carried his concept much farther with better wound channels and more complete energy dumps.

[derek45]

Been doing it for years, I love the satisfying sound of crunching glass when I seat a bullet.

https://i.imgur.com/vOKqqLl.gif

[1hole]

So you're saying the jacket provides no real advantage to organ/tissue damage over cast? I'd love to see some gel tests that compare traditional defense JHP side by side with cast HP in regard to the wound channel.

As a mental exercise my opinion on this issue is, first, use a defense bullet engineered to do the job and that will never be a cast bullet. Second, the presumed horrors of spinning bullet petals destroying large channels of flesh is greatly over rated.

Any cast bullet alloy hard enough to be shot very fast is simply too hard to reliably expand in flesh no matter how big a hollow point - or glass point - it may have. Therefore, as Lee Jarrus of SuperVel Bullets proved 50 years ago, the answer for good expanding handgun bullets is a thin copper jacket over pure lead.

Consider that the rotational speed for a bullet is only one turn for several inches of forward travel. Both travel and spin come to a rapid stop after impact; flesh and bone absorbs and stops bullet travel and spin very rapidly. Thus, contrary to breathless advertising hype, there is very little high speed "saw blade" damage that can possibly occur before a bullet stops dead still. Any surgeon getting cut gloves and hands while removing flowering bullet petals had better stay away from bone splinters because they are much larger, sharper and far more common within the wound channel than bullet fragments will ever be.

Over the last 50-60 years I've seen many side by side gel comparisons of wound channels. They all confirm that anyone seriously wanting to leave a large wound channel should be using a high velocity rifle bullet made for hunting, not a handgun cartridge and bullet.

My own solution to handgun "expansion" is to use bullets starting with a "4" or "5" and load them hot because, at best, they ain't much.

[Goofy]

Hysterical thread this is! 😂

Carry on please.

[USSR]

Hollow point cast bullets don't compare to their jacketed cousins in defensive performance.

Au Contraire!

Don

271487

[emt1581]

Pics of the gel those were pulled out of?

Thanks

[Goofy]

Fella really doesn't need to jump thru hoops trying to do something that can't be done.

Hollow points work, flat points work, problem solved.

.44 Mag, 300 gr pure lead...
https://i.imgur.com/a2DR8es.jpg

Sorry I don't have pics of the test medium, she died on the spot and wound up in the skillet.
https://i.imgur.com/RENinxM.jpg

About 287 grains retained weight, the shot was at 80 yards. Broke both forelegs, 5 ribs and cut the heart in half.

Not much sense in trying to reinvent the wheel. And yeah, they work just fine in the Blackhawk...all the time. No reason one can't do the same thing in lessor calibers. No reason one can't shoot a soft alloy in revolvers either.

[imashooter2]

Appreciate the link. I didn't see any gel blocks but admittedly I didn't read beyond the pics either. I see petals for sure which is definitely new to me. But I don't see anything pointy/sharp that would rip quite like copper jacketing.

Thanks!

I’ve never seen any study that suggests that hollow point jackets provide enhanced wounding.

I’ve seen advertising copy bragging about high rpm buzz saws, but those are not scientific studies and on the face of it ignore that the high rpm buzz saw will only make 1 turn every foot or so.

[Texas by God]

A bit of Ricin and a bit of JB Weld in the hp cavity, gosh....

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[charlie b]

If you want a 'shrapnel' round it was called a MagSafe or Glaser. Shotgun shot in a copper cup. IIRC they were developed for Air Marshals to prevent penetrating an aircraft cabin. They have evolved over the years. Depending on type and caliber they have different shot sizes.

Father-in-law and I worked on a cast hollow point fired at 800fps that would reliably expand after penetrating a layer of denim and wool. Surprise :) it was identical to the hollow point cavity in Winchester Silvertips.

Now days there are a bunch of commercial bullets that do the job better in all the various scenarios so I don't waste my time casting hollow points.

FWIW, there is data in here on .38 158gn HPSWC lead bullets.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#45ACP

[35remington]

The necessity of doing so set aside, it would not stay in the nose of the bullet. Hot lead alloy dropped into a hot mould (cold moulds do not produce usable bullets) is introduced into a mould as a heavy liquid at relatively high flow speed whether inserted with a dipper or a bottom pour pot. The lead does not solidify immediately....again, if it did, the bullet would not be usable.

The glass would have as much chance of staying in place under heavy fast liquid flow as toilet paper in a flushing toilet. As in none whatsoever. Won’t work. Since it won’t work, the need and effectiveness question is moot.

[emt1581]

The necessity of doing so set aside, it would not stay in the nose of the bullet. Hot lead alloy dropped into a hot mould (cold moulds do not produce usable bullets) is introduced into a mould as a heavy liquid at relatively high flow speed whether inserted with a dipper or a bottom pour pot. The lead does not solidify immediately....again, if it did, the bullet would not be usable.

The glass would have as much chance of staying in place under heavy fast liquid flow as toilet paper in a flushing toilet. As in none whatsoever. Won’t work. Since it won’t work, the need and effectiveness question is moot.

No desire to try it, but what about pinning the glass/metal down at the bottom (nose) with a small wire-like piece with a tiny circle/basket....then pour the lead in on top of it....then one it hardens, just clip the wire. Not sure if something like that would screw up balance of the bullet in flight though. Just an idea to force whatever additional payload to stay put.

[35remington]

No way to secure anything without preventing the mould from closing and letting the lead flow out. Anything unsecured will also move under the lead Niagara Falls incoming.

Sorry, but the concept isn’t viable.

[emt1581]

No way to secure anything without preventing the mould from closing and letting the lead flow out. Anything unsecured will also move under the lead Niagara Falls incoming.

Sorry, but the concept isn’t viable.

Preventing the mold from closing? I don't follow you. Correct me where I'm mistaken... Hold the mold closed in one hand, sprinkle in whatever, follow that with a circular section of wire or something like that that will rest on the "sprinkles" (maybe a third hand holds the wire to prevent it from be up-ended like a straw in a drink), then pour the lead in. Where's the flaw in that plan to make it not viable?

[35remington]

Because the wire also moves. It is light compared to very heavy lead. The toilet paper analogy applies.

I presume you are not a bullet caster nor have you seen it done. How would you cut the sprue? Where would this wire tail protrude?

It would be helpful to review the procedures inherent to casting bullets. Then you would see the problems that arise with your idea(s) and would have no further questions about what would be very apparently impracticable.

[emt1581]

Because the wire also moves. It is light compared to very heavy lead. The toilet paper analogy applies.

I presume you are not a bullet caster nor have you seen it done. How would you cut the sprue? Where would this wire tail protrude?

It would be helpful to review the procedures inherent to casting bullets. Then you would see the problems that arise with your idea(s) and would have no further questions about what would be very apparently impracticable.

I just cast a couple hundred 10mm and 308win bullets yesterday. So yes, I am a caster. Cut the sprue with the plate AFTER nipping the wire off. The wire tail would come out of the sprue hole where the lead gets poured into. I'm not good with digital drawings but I could draw it on a post-it and post a pic. Makes perfect sense in my mind. Well, except for the third hand. That seems clumsy and potentially dangerous.

[Winger Ed.]

Cut the sprue with the plate AFTER nipping the wire off. .

I don't think ya could cut the wire off short enough inside the solidified sprue for the plate to swing over and clear it.
The first time the sprue plate hit the wire, it would ruin the cutting edge of its hole.

[35remington]

Holding the wire in place is a failing. Even if you could do it by some miracle, you now have a bullet with a chunk of wire in it. Foreign objects in moulds that slosh around in unpredictable ways make unbalanced bullets.

Not good!

If you nip the wire off, the sprue plate still has to cut the remaining wire you did not nip. Sprue plates can’t cut wire....just lead. No go.

You are trying really, really hard to pursue a non viable idea. Not worth your time or anyone else’s. Realistic to presume that it is a non viable idea or it else would have already been done. It isn’t, and it hasn’t.

[emt1581]

I don't think ya could cut the wire off short enough inside the solidified sprue for the plate to swing over and clear it.
The first time the sprue plate hit the wire, it would ruin the cutting edge of its hole.

I thought the same after I posted it. Toothpick, 3d printing filament, etc. Maybe something that'll destroy itself as the lead hardens but still do the job of providing structure/integrity to hold the sprinkles in place. At this point I really don't care about it, just stretching my brain a bit thinking about the potential of the idea.

EDIT: Ok, now I'm getting a little carried away with this one...but what about an electro/magnet to pull the metal in place at the bottom. No clue what magnet would withstand the heat but if the magnet was on the surface under the pot, mold rests on top of that (because LEE aluminum isn't magnetic....then again Lyman steel molds are)... Again, just my mind getting carried away.

[35remington]

At this point the problems with the idea should be piling up in your head to a greater extent than anything else.

Why don’t you fiddle around with cast hollowpoints and let this one go?

Introducing something that is light and solid to hold something light and powdery in place, all of which is likely to shift anyway under the somewhat irresistible force of very heavy hot liquid flow in a tiny confined area while maintaining bullet balance is not worth the effort because you can’t get it done in any worthwhile sense.

Why not worry about making an accurate load and practice a lot? The real value in a bullet is shooting it straight. With a handgun that is the real issue.

Besides, they sell shiny new Gold Dots for you to handload or HST’s to buy every day.

[emt1581]

At this point the problems with the idea should be piling up in your head to a greater extent than anything else.

Why don’t you fiddle around with cast hollowpoints and let this one go?

Introducing something that is light and solid to hold something light and powdery in place, all of which is likely to shift anyway under the somewhat irresistible force of very heavy hot liquid flow in a tiny confined area while maintaining bullet balance is not worth the effort because you can’t get it done in any worthwhile sense.

Why not worry about making an accurate load and practice a lot? The real value in a bullet is shooting it straight. With a handgun that is the real issue.

Besides, they sell shiny new Gold Dots for you to handload or HST’s to buy every day.

I've come close to buying the Lyman HP mold for 9mm a few times. But the last time I was going to pull the trigger, some pics were shared in a thread of how the bullets don't flower/expand as we've seen linked to here...but the gel/wound channels I saw made those Gold Dots you speak of seem like a night and day difference. That's why I've been asking to see gel for the claims made in here.

Speaking of Gold Dots, I do need to pick up a few boxes and I don't expect I'll find any in stock at this particular point in time. But stranger things have happened.

[35remington]

The need for such a bullet is so low it is nonexistent. It will not revolutionize handgun performance even if you could make such a thing.

No need to reinvent the wheel, or try to improve something that already has well defined limits in terms of impact performance. Everything you envision as been accomplished in some way before and has largely been rejected as undesirable to correct bullet performance. The Glaser was a dead end, just as a frangible bullet will be that penetrates poorly. Why try to (re)create that which is already known to be inadequate and undesirable by very difficult to impossible means?

I do understand this may be just thinking out loud, so to speak, but really.....

[35remington]

I picked up, amazingly, some Critical Duty when I happened to be in Cabela’s at just the right time a week ago. They lasted all of thirty minutes while I was in the store. Those are likely better than anything you can make in terms of a proposed frangible powdered unbalanced cast lead bullet that has poor accuracy and penetration.

[M-Tecs]

A pure lead or pure lead tin alloy has a very long and distinguished prove track record of extremely reliable expansion. Adding a jacket allows for increase velocity and increase RPM threshold. The jacket does not increase expansion. It is the exact opposite. The jacket can be used to decrease and control expansion. Before jacketed bullets became the standard hunting bullets were lead and tin. After jacketed bullets became the mainstay cast bullets mostly were relegated to cost effective practice loads or handgun competition with very little concern for expansion. The cheapest alloys that didn't lead and gave adequate accuracy is what was used. Can you say wheel weights? These alloys were, are and always have been lacking for expansion.

To the OP why do you believe the jacketed bullet expands better? Hint at the same velocity a jacketed bullet of equal design with a pure lead core will expand less than the same design out of pure lead without a jacket. Pure lead without a jacket will not withstand the same RPM or muzzle velocity as a jacket unless it's paper patched, polycoated or powder coated. They will also require a slower twist at high velocities.

As to glass in a bullet usage glass is to light and fragile to have any practical bullet application.


Hollow point cast bullets don't compare to their jacketed cousins in defensive performance.

At normal or lower handgun velocity the is simply not true if expansion and or penetration is the criteria. Jacketed bullets offer many advantages over lead but expansion is not one of them. Lack or leading, better accuracy in ill fitting bores and throat's, less critical bullet to case fit, withstanding higher rifle velocities and higher RPM limits are a few of the advantages.

To the OP since you made the above statement please tell us what testing or actual game killing experience you have to back up your statement? What calibers, velocities and alloys did you use for your test of actual game taking? Without a good baseline how do you tell if any changes are a benefit?

[rbuck351]

If you really want to do this, cast or drill a large HP in your boolit, then fill the HP with what ever you want and top off with a bit of glue. Then do some testing in some different mediums and compare it to the same boolit without the HP loaded backwards.

[35remington]

There has been a fair amount of experimentation here in that regard. Easier concept to implement all around.

[GregLaROCHE]

One night I drilled out the noses of some 500 grain .45/70 slugs and installed primers. At the time, drinking beer and wine, it seemed like an interesting thing to do. The next morning, I thought about it and decided to throw them away. My main fear was that they may go off before exiting the muzzle. Has anyone thought about or even tried that?

[M-Tecs]

One night I drilled out the noses of some 500 grain .45/70 slugs and installed primers. At the time, drinking beer and wine, it seemed like an interesting thing to do. The next morning, I thought about it and decided to throw them away. My main fear was that they may go off before exiting the muzzle. Has anyone thought about or even tried that?

Explosive .22 caliber ammunition was used in the assassination attempt on President Reagan in 1981. It had the power of a small firecracker. Until you get to military grade high explosives it's not effective.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/exploding-bullets-dont-exist-contrary-kera-claims/

[Ledhead]

It is my opinion based apon my research and my personal experiences that the "sharp" pedals or ridges on a jacketed bullet only
measurably increases tissue damage towards the end of the wound channel, after the round streamlines in the gel block. This is due to the temporary stretch cavity forming around the projectile as it penetrates. I'm not convinced this phenomenon directly occurs in living tissue based apon wound channels I find in deer.

When inspecting wound channels in deer I've found the flatter the expanded portion is and the greater the total surface area the greater the damage created by the bullet. This means that a bullet that creates multiple separate pedals will cause less internal damage vs a standard cast boolit that creates a flat top mushroom.

Expansion in cast without fragmentation takes a large effort and lots of testing. Once you achieve the proper alloy with the proper velocity you get reliable expantion. All the wile with near 100% weight retention for deep penetration, especially in hunting caliber velocity. ~1400 fps range

[emt1581]

A pure lead or pure lead tin alloy has a very long and distinguished prove track record of extremely reliable expansion. Adding a jacket allows for increase velocity and increase RPM threshold. The jacket does not increase expansion. It is the exact opposite. The jacket can be used to decrease and control expansion. Before jacketed bullets became the standard hunting bullets were lead and tin. After jacketed bullets became the mainstay cast bullets mostly were relegated to cost effective practice loads or handgun competition with very little concern for expansion. The cheapest alloys that didn't lead and gave adequate accuracy is what was used. Can you say wheel weights? These alloys were, are and always have been lacking for expansion.

To the OP why do you believe the jacketed bullet expands better? Hint at the same velocity a jacketed bullet of equal design with a pure lead core will expand less than the same design out of pure lead without a jacket. Pure lead without a jacket will not withstand the same RPM or muzzle velocity as a jacket unless it's paper patched, polycoated or powder coated. They will also require a slower twist at high velocities.

As to glass in a bullet usage glass is to light and fragile to have any practical bullet application.

At normal or lower handgun velocity the is simply not true if expansion and or penetration is the criteria. Jacketed bullets offer many advantages over lead but expansion is not one of them. Lack or leading, better accuracy in ill fitting bores and throat's, less critical bullet to case fit, withstanding higher rifle velocities and higher RPM limits are a few of the advantages.

To the OP since you made the above statement please tell us what testing or actual game killing experience you have to back up your statement? What calibers, velocities and alloys did you use for your test of actual game taking? Without a good baseline how do you tell if any changes are a benefit?

As to why I believe jacketed expands better......that actually came from pics/data someone shared in a thread over on ARF.com last year when I discussed shopping for a cast HP 9mm mold over there. Kinda crapped on the idea but through data not just their opinion. Admittedly, that and some light digging afterward was what I based by understanding on. Now another thread what linked to earlier here. But I did not see a mold company/model listed even though the expansion was quite impressive. While the Lyman is the cheapest mold I've seen, I would certainly be open to suggestions on molds that are known to produce excellent expanding 9mm (.356?) bullets that are actually available for purchase (i.e. still being made and not OOS due to the panic or pandemic).... and while I already have a few hundred pounds of ingots made I'd also welcome specific suggestion on alloy mixtures to produce said results/expansion.

Hunting...only ever took small game with a .22lr. Rabbits and goundhogs. As mentioned above, my experience was not first hand, but rather from searching around online over the years and most recently that thread on the other forum I referenced.

Appreciate the info you shared.

Did want to include something else that is pure observation just to chew on a bit here... When mining lead at the range, I wear nitrile gloves (just so I can rip them off and answer my phone/etc. if needed). I've never had a cast lead bullet tear through them when digging around. However, the copper jacketed ones are sharp little ********!! Not only will they tear through the glove but I've also received small nicks/cuts from them.

[emt1581]

Explosive .22 caliber ammunition was used in the assassination attempt on President Reagan in 1981. It had the power of a small firecracker. Until you get to military grade high explosives it's not effective.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/exploding-bullets-dont-exist-contrary-kera-claims/


Impressive. Did not know that. Your title is well deserved. ;)

[emt1581]

If you really want to do this, cast or drill a large HP in your boolit, then fill the HP with what ever you want and top off with a bit of glue. Then do some testing in some different mediums and compare it to the same boolit without the HP loaded backwards.

I've given that thought sporadically over the years. Never tried it though. Would be fun to test out at the range and certainly easy enough with a vise/press.

[emt1581]

There has been a fair amount of experimentation here in that regard. Easier concept to implement all around.

Need to do some digging on that one to better educate myself on results and molds. As I said in my other post today, I'm open to suggestions on 9mm HP molds (err...I'll start with one) to try to play around with different alloy and powders.

Thanks

[Ledhead]

Need to do some digging on that one to better educate myself on results and molds. As I said in my other post today, I'm open to suggestions on 9mm HP molds (err...I'll start with one) to try to play around with different alloy and powders.

Thanks

Look into NOE RG molds, that's what I have for my 44 and I love that thing. As far as alloys goes you're gonna need to leave out the antimony and cast pure lead and tin to best avoid fragmentation. Your target ammo can be whatever you have laying around, especially if you powder coat, but save the pure and tin mix for special purposes like defense or hunting.

[emt1581]

Look into NOE RG molds, that's what I have for my 44 and I love that thing. As far as alloys goes you're gonna need to leave out the antimony and cast pure lead and tin to best avoid fragmentation. Your target ammo can be whatever you have laying around, especially if you powder coat, but save the pure and tin mix for special purposes like defense or hunting.

Thanks for the info!! I'm going to be buying NOE's gas checked .50bmg mold so I can look at their "RG" mold for 9mm. Lead and tin is what I have in all my ingots now. Any particular ratio you'd suggest and maybe how you test for hardness when looking at the alloy itself (prior to casting bullets)?

Thanks

[charlie b]

If serious about this you will need to know your alloy hardness so a tester will be necessary. The alloy you want will depend on the terminal velocities of your bullets. Then you will need some medium to test with. It doesn't have to be ballistic gelatin, especially since you will need a lot of it for all the bullets you will shoot. Soaked newsprint or phone books work for initial tests. When you get a design that works in that medium then you can get a large roast, bones, etc to test it on. And a layer of leather, denim, wool or whatever else you will expect from the type of engagements you envision.

[emt1581]

If serious about this you will need to know your alloy hardness so a tester will be necessary. The alloy you want will depend on the terminal velocities of your bullets. Then you will need some medium to test with. It doesn't have to be ballistic gelatin, especially since you will need a lot of it for all the bullets you will shoot. Soaked newsprint or phone books work for initial tests. When you get a design that works in that medium then you can get a large roast, bones, etc to test it on. And a layer of leather, denim, wool or whatever else you will expect from the type of engagements you envision.

Hmm, never considered doing any serious testing but, for political/legal reasons, might be useful and important to be able to do in the future....if/when one can't just go online and stroll into a store and buy defense ammo.

I usually buy 5-6 turkeys when they are cheap this time of year (already have 5). I could buy a small one for a few bucks and shoot that. lol In all seriousness though, not sure of where I'd even find phone books or other medium. Maybe save up and bundle junk mail but that'd be inconsistent with the thickness of stock of everything varying.

So I need mold(s), alloy ideas, medium to test in before moving on to meat/bone (groundhogs will volunteer in the spring which would be free).

[Ledhead]

Thanks for the info!! I'm going to be buying NOE's gas checked .50bmg mold so I can look at their "RG" mold for 9mm. Lead and tin is what I have in all my ingots now. Any particular ratio you'd suggest and maybe how you test for hardness when looking at the alloy itself (prior to casting bullets)?

Thanks

For 9mm velocities I'd likely start somewhere around 30-1 lead/tin and go from there. I do the majority of my testing in soaked phone books and find that to be a pretty accurate representation of penetration and wound channels in deer. I've settled on basically 20-1 +1% antimony in my .44. It took years of testing to finally get it figured out. (only a few weeks with the help of the good folks here) Now I consistently get the most beautiful mushrooms and near 100% weight retention.

[emt1581]

For 9mm velocities I'd likely start somewhere around 30-1 lead/tin and go from there. I do the majority of my testing in soaked phone books and find that to be a pretty accurate representation of penetration and wound channels in deer. I've settled on basically 20-1 +1% antimony in my .44. It took years of testing to finally get it figured out. (only a few weeks with the help of the good folks here) Now I consistently get the most beautiful mushrooms and near 100% weight retention.

Just curious where you are getting phone books and enough of them to do testing? In decades past, I used to see boxes of them that no one wanted at different places I worked. Haven't seen one of any size in years.

Thanks

[Goofy]

Most everything you might want to know about alloys and such.

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

Little need to guess about hardness, Lee makes an inexpensive and functional hardness tester.

[pmer]

Here's some 45 acp shot into wet paper. Cast soft and powder coated

[1hole]

I once knew an old machinist who reloaded and salt water fished. He fished just off the Jetty at the mouth of the St. John's river in Mayport, Florida, and had troubles with sharks taking his fish.

Great rifle accuracy wasn't needed for close in shark shooting so he simply made a (rough) anti-shark bullet mold for his trapdoor Springfield. He hollow pointed the bullet to accept a tight fitted .22 RF cartridge, base forward, and with room for the powder from a few crushed kitchen matches packed into the cavity; in other words, he made illegal but workable explosive bullets for a .45-70.

I saw the mold and a few of his bullets in the early 60s but, sadly, I never saw it at work. It couldn't take any deep sharks of course but witnesses said it played rough with those near the surface.

(For the info of any indignant BATF men who see this post, I knew that man in the early 60s and he died in the late 60s. I don't remember his name now so I can't even help you dig him up for a trial and burning at the stake.)

[emt1581]

I once knew an old machinist who reloaded and salt water fished. He fished just off the Jetty at the mouth of the St. John's river in Mayport, Florida, and had troubles with sharks taking his fish.

Great rifle accuracy wasn't needed for close in shark shooting so he simply made a (rough) anti-shark bullet mold for his trapdoor Springfield. He hollow pointed the bullet to accept a tight fitted .22 RF cartridge, base forward, and with room for the powder from a few crushed kitchen matches packed into the cavity; in other words, he made illegal but workable explosive bullets for a .45-70.

I saw the mold and a few of his bullets in the early 60s but, sadly, I never saw it at work. It couldn't take any deep sharks of course but witnesses said it played rough with those near the surface.

(For the info of any indignant BATF men who see this post, I knew that man in the early 60s and he died in the late 60s. I don't remember his name now so I can't even help you dig him up for a trial and burning at the stake.)

That's interesting. I guess at short range, something like that could get the job done. I wonder if when he took aim he said "Smile you sonofa...." ;-)

[hiram]

I read about a 45-70 HP with a shotgun primer glued into the cavity. Solid side facing forward. Never did it----I swear. This is illegal because it would be considered an explosive device.

[emt1581]

I read about a 45-70 HP with a shotgun primer glued into the cavity. Solid side facing forward. Never did it----I swear. This is illegal because it would be considered an explosive device.

Do you mean Destructive Device? If so, you could do it (so long as your state said so), but you'd have to pay the $200 extortion fee....I mean tax and then engrave the casing with a serial number and your info.

While the mere discussion is likely to cause a sandy vag for some here, I'd be curious to know what such a thing actually does...the primer in the HP. Just not sure if the force would be enough to do anything of if it'd be like taping a firecracker to a cannon ball...little pop but no real enhancement in performance.

[USSR]

Thanks for the info!! I'm going to be buying NOE's gas checked .50bmg mold so I can look at their "RG" mold for 9mm. Lead and tin is what I have in all my ingots now. Any particular ratio you'd suggest and maybe how you test for hardness when looking at the alloy itself (prior to casting bullets)?

Thanks

Some info regarding the pic below that I previously posted. The bullet in the middle and on the right were shot out of my snubbie using my version of the .38 Special +P FBI load. The velocity of the middle bullet was 845fps, and the bullet on the right was 940fps. They were fired into water-soaked newsprint, which is a good and convenient medium for the layman. The alloy in both cases was 97.0Pb/2.5Sn/0.5Sb. Since your 9mm HP's would be at slightly greater velocity, I would try 96.0Pb/3.0Sn/1.0Sb. A couple of things to keep in mind with cast hollowpoints. It is important to keep your tin content high and your antimony content low if you want good expansion, and have a mold that casts heavy for caliber bullets if you want good penetration, which you do.

Don

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=271487&d=1501980404&thumb=1

[charlie b]

We did our testing back in the 80's so there were plenty of news papers and phone books.

You might be able to get phone books if your area still gets them delivered at the beginning of the year. The local post office will have a large bin to deposit the old ones. If you ask they will let you take as many as you want. One asked me to sign a recycling form, ie, I promised to turn them into a recycling center when I was done with them. :) Yes, we did cut out the lead path and recycle the rest.

I would never consider using a cast hollow point bullet on anything unless I tested it to my satisfaction.

[Ledhead]

Just curious where you are getting phone books and enough of them to do testing? In decades past, I used to see boxes of them that no one wanted at different places I worked. Haven't seen one of any size in years.

Thanks

They have them for free in some local stores alongside the classifieds and such in the front of the store.

[USSR]

Where I live, we get what's called an "E-Z Shopper" paper delivered in the mailbox. I save them up, bind them together, and dunk them in a water-filled plastic storage bin.

Don