doesnt anyone shoot 45acps anymore

[Lloyd Smale]

use to be there was always lost of once fired brass for sale on the net. Now i rarely see it.

[Adam20]

Seems like the last year bulk brass sales have been slim, at least at good prices.
The local indoor range around me sells brass to capitol cartridges.
Remanufactures are gobbling it up right now most likely.

[TyGuy]

Funny this was brought up. A friend was just at a LGS/range and said all their handgun ammo was sold out except 45acp. Said those shelves were full. Makes me wish I had a 1911...

[lawdog941]

In todays setting, I tend not to shoot much to conserve as much as possible. Losing a small percentage to grass/gravel adds up after awhile. With the uncertainty of the future, shortages and such, I'm just playing squirrel with my acorns. Might be a long winter...

[ShooterAZ]

Please don't make offers to sell brass on this thread! Use the PM function, or list it in S&S.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

My local police dept sure shoots a lot of 45 acp. I try to go to our Club's range that day after the local police have their Qual shoots. I usually get a grocery bag of 45acp, and another grocery bag of 223/556. It happens twice a year, but they like to do this in the wintertime, when snow covers our range...so then I have to wait for Spring, and try to be the first one there when it melts.

[bangerjim]

45ACP is my most UN-favorite hand gun to shoot! Worst investment I ever made. I have difficulty getting rounds to chamber and eject. Have tried shortening & messing with everything. I was hoping I could find one of those moon clips Rossi made for their long guns that shoot 45LC. W could easily shoot ACP's in those! They discontinued them. I may have to hog one on the mill if I could get some dims.

I can only shot commercial rounds in mine. Fortunate a bought a 1K ammo box of FMJ's a couple years ago at a LGS! Remember those? Used to be lots of fun.

I believe the ACP is falling out of favor. It sure did with me!

banger

[ShooterAZ]

45 ACP happens to be one of my all time favorites, to each his own I guess. I have zero problems getting rounds to chamber and eject. I shoot a ton of them, both in autos and revolvers. It's one of the most forgiving rounds to load for.

[jdfoxinc]

I own a combat commander, a 1911, a Tommy gun and a G21 1st gen.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

45ACP is my most UN-favorite hand gun to shoot! Worst investment I ever made. I have difficulty getting rounds to chamber and eject. Have tried shortening & messing with everything. I was hoping I could find one of those moon clips Rossi made for their long guns that shoot 45LC. W could easily shoot ACP's in those! They discontinued them. I may have to hog one on the mill if I could get some dims.

I can only shot commercial rounds in mine. Fortunate a bought a 1K ammo box of FMJ's a couple years ago at a LGS! Remember those? Used to be lots of fun.

I believe the ACP is falling out of favor. It sure did with me!

banger

I'm totally with ShooterAZ on this, Jim. I'm thinking that something is wrong with your dies or loading technique. The .45 ACP is quite easy to load. You've got me a little confused though :veryconfu when you mention half moon clips. Most of us are shooting the semi-auto 1911 pistol, and the half moon clips only have application to a revolver. Is your Rossi a revolver that uses half moon clips? It's not always necessary to use them if your cylinder's chambers have a shoulder in them for the cartridge case's mouth to rest against and to prevent it from sinking deeper into the cylinder where the firing pin can't reach, but the clips do work for easy loading and fast ejecting. No clips? You can always punch them out with a pencil. I've never heard of a moon clip associated with a long gun, but I learn new stuff everyday. The .45 L.C. wouldn't need a moon clip because it has a rim which accomplishes the same thing as the clip, and if your revolver is chambered for .45 ACP you can always use .45 Auto Rim cases. If your reloaded rounds won't chamber, I'd try a different set of dies and a Lee Factory Crimp Die. As for the .45 ACP falling out of favor, maybe a bit since the popularity of the 9mm Luger round which has less recoil and is less expensive, but there are still lots of us old diehards out here using the 1911 and 1917 revolvers. Good luck with getting your ACP problems straightened out. :D

[SweetMk]

A LOT depends on the gun,,
the neighbor across the street could only shoot store bought ball ammo,,

This was back in the late 1980's,,

The gun was some Brazil made 1911 look alike, to my eyes, the loading ramp looked different than a normal 1911,,
I offered to work on it for him,, I was taking a gunsmithing class,, he decided to just sell it,,,

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have a recent production S&W 625-JM with tight chambers in the cylinder (not tight throats, the throats were fine), I had a heck of a time loading moon clips into the cylinder, they should just fall in, but my usual 45 ammo would NOT. After trying a few things, including sizing boolits to .4515 instead of .4520, also using only R+P brass which seems to have thinner walls, and finally a Taper crimp in a separate step...I had success, reliable loading of ammo filled Moon clips.

Now, I've had other 625 guns, never seen this before. If I were to ever start shooting this 625-JM a lot, I'd have the cylinder chambers honed out...they just gotta be under spec???

[SweetMk]

Oh, yea, as far as brass, I was just on that "5.56" discussing site,, members had literally buckets of 45ACP for sale,,

[MUSTANG]

I love my Springfield 1911, Kimber 1911, and 1937 Brazilian contract .45acp revolver. Not so much the three Glock .45's the sons bought for me. I am not shooting as much .45 ACP because I am shooting a lot of rifles; and the .38's are the wife's choice/plus I can get almost 2 for one in amount of lead used between .45ACP and .38's.

Now as for the range; seems that 9mm's; 40's and 10MM pickups are about 4 times as much (total aggregate of all them) compared to .45 ACP's. I suspect that is because most people are recoil shy - never having learned proper shooting technique. This coupled with too many Grade B/C movies where the characters spray and pray thousands of rounds every 5 minutes.

[ShooterAZ]

I have a recent production S&W 625-JM with tight chambers in the cylinder (not tight throats, the throats were fine), I had a heck of a time loading moon clips into the cylinder, they should just fall in, but my usual 45 ammo would NOT. After trying a few things, including sizing boolits to .4515 instead of .4520, also using only R+P brass which seems to have thinner walls, and finally a Taper crimp in a separate step...I had success, reliable loading of ammo filled Moon clips.

Now, I've had other 625 guns, never seen this before. If I were to ever start shooting this 625-JM a lot, I'd have the cylinder chambers honed out...they just gotta be under spec???

I'm guessing they might be under spec Jon. I have three 625's, and on all of them the moon clips drop right in. For these I like the RCBS 45-230-RN, cast from Isotope Cores. Feeds and ejects like a champ, very accurate with my pet loads.

[10-x]

Wow, love .45 ACP, best target pistol ever. Been loading them since 70’s, use Keith style 201 grn. semi wad cutter with Taper crimp seating die( RCBS) zero issues. Might go shooting next week as have enough to splurge once a month, lol. All depends on ones training and experience.

[Winger Ed.]

The world is moving over to 9mm & .40S&W.
.38Spec., .357Mag. as well as .45ACP is drying up.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I have a recent production S&W 625-JM with tight chambers in the cylinder (not tight throats, the throats were fine), I had a heck of a time loading moon clips into the cylinder, they should just fall in, but my usual 45 ammo would NOT. After trying a few things, including sizing boolits to .4515 instead of .4520, also using only R+P brass which seems to have thinner walls, and finally a Taper crimp in a separate step...I had success, reliable loading of ammo filled Moon clips.

Now, I've had other 625 guns, never seen this before. If I were to ever start shooting this 625-JM a lot, I'd have the cylinder chambers honed out...they just gotta be under spec???

I'm just guessing that the taper crimp is what solved your problem. Maybe the mouth edges of the cases were catching on the mouth edges of the cylinder chambers. You might chamfer the cylinder edges just a small amount.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I'm just guessing that the taper crimp is what solved your problem. Maybe the mouth edges of the cases were catching on the mouth edges of the cylinder chambers. You might chamfer the cylinder edges just a small amount.

I thought about chamfering the cylinder edges, but figured I'd work on the ammo first. Because it was likely one of the problems, because sometimes I would have to wiggle and wiggle to get them started. But sometimes a Moon clip full of ammo would be "sticky", but still go in all the way, and then sometimes it'd go in "sticky" and then get stuck the last 1/4" and would have to be removed, Cuz it wasn't gonna go in all the way.

With my new technique and recipe, they drop in like they should. I'm good, until I start shooting a lot of ammo.

[DDriller]

I have never had any trouble shooting reloads in my 45s. Easier to load than 9mm with cast.

[daloper]

My RIA 1911 did not like my cast hand loads but shot factory just fine. Sent the barrel off to DougGuy and now there is nothing it won't eat. Now it is my favorite shooter.

[Thunder Stick]

I find my 45 acp is less finicky to reload than 9x19. A low end load of 5.5 grains of Unique behind a 230 grain LRN makes one hole groups at 7 yards. It is boring accurate form my Springfield 1911A1.

[bigjake]

45ACP is my most UN-favorite hand gun to shoot! Worst investment I ever made. I have difficulty getting rounds to chamber and eject. Have tried shortening & messing with everything. I was hoping I could find one of those moon clips Rossi made for their long guns that shoot 45LC. W could easily shoot ACP's in those! They discontinued them. I may have to hog one on the mill if I could get some dims.

I can only shot commercial rounds in mine. Fortunate a bought a 1K ammo box of FMJ's a couple years ago at a LGS! Remember those? Used to be lots of fun.

I believe the ACP is falling out of favor. It sure did with me!

banger

I dont believe its falling out of favor :roll: There will always guys that will favor this round

[Kevin Rohrer]

I shoot one of my eleven 1911s in God's Caliber each week and recover my brass for reloading. I have a 4-gallon bucket filled w/ it, as well as a 50cal ammo can w/ my reloads. Am always in the hunt for more brass. Two of the ranges I goto have brass, but no one to separate it.

[rbuck351]

45 acp and 38spl are my two favorite handgun rounds. I have an old Ballister Molina in 45acp that will eat anything including a boolit loaded backwards to make a wad cutter that I load flush with the case mouth. I also have a Springfield xds in 45acp that so far has been 100% reliable with all the cast and factory loads I have tried in it. I haven't looked for 45acp brass as I have more than I will ever use. Same with 38spl brass and with it being shot mostly in a Colt Officers Model 38spl, I never have to search for the brass.

[45workhorse]

You mean there are other center fired cartridges!:bigsmyl2:

[2A-Jay]

I hve never left the Range I belong to without coming home with20 or 30 .45acp more than I shot. Sometimes as many as 50 more than I shot. I just don't understand why an avid shooter would not reload for what he shoots. IF I find .45acp Cases NIB at the Gun Shop I will buy as much as I can at that time too.

[stubshaft]

271394

I hate mine so much I take it with me wherever I go...

I also have 4 different 1911's but HATE picking up brass.

[richhodg66]

When I first started getting serious about handloading maybe 30 years ago, any range you went to you could haul off truck loads of 9mm brass from any range, but .45 shooters kept theirs. I don't shoot on public ranges much anymore, but for the past ten years or so, I could haul off more .45 ACP than 9mm, and ten times that of .40 S&W. Maybe your problem is regional, but from where I stand, the .45 ACP is more popular than ever.

[Lloyd Smale]

45ACP is my most UN-favorite hand gun to shoot! Worst investment I ever made. I have difficulty getting rounds to chamber and eject. Have tried shortening & messing with everything. I was hoping I could find one of those moon clips Rossi made for their long guns that shoot 45LC. W could easily shoot ACP's in those! They discontinued them. I may have to hog one on the mill if I could get some dims.

I can only shot commercial rounds in mine. Fortunate a bought a 1K ammo box of FMJ's a couple years ago at a LGS! Remember those? Used to be lots of fun.

I believe the ACP is falling out of favor. It sure did with me!

banger

what kind of 45 do you own. Ive got kimber colt and springfield 1911s a M&P compact and glock 30 and they all run like sewing machines. Ive had a couple bad 1911s in the past (mostly the older springfields) and had on xd and my buddy bought one at the same time when they first made a 45 and they were crap. But even the xds and springfield 1911s made in recent times are great guns. Most of the complaints ive heard of 45acps not being reliable were guys who bought those cheap 4-500 dollar import 1911s. If all you have is 500 dollars buy a M&P or a used glock. theres just something relaxing about going to the range with a GOOD old school 1911 and listening to its dull boom vs the crack of something else and throwing those big chucks of lead down range. Every time i do it i wonder why i dont shoot them more.

In the big picture they even make more sense for concealed carry. Yup my officers kimber only holds 7 rounds. But then raise your hand if you even had to use your concealed carry gun and find me a case where a guy shot 7 times and ran out of ammo that wasnt a soldier or police officer. That little officer 1911 actually prints less them my glock 43 or smith shields to and you can quote me all the fbi studies in the world but if i had to get shot id take getting shot with a 9mm any day over a 45 with a 200 grain hp. Dont get me wrong. I love 9s and even 40s. Probably shoot more 9s then all other calibers combined but thats becasue there cheap to shoot. Couple gains of powder a primer and half the lead of a 45. Want moon clip gun? Get yourself a 4 inch smith 25. Mines a great shooting gun. I guess i dont see much advantage to shooting acps in a 45 colt rifle. Yup brass is a bit cheaper but at 45 acp velocitys 45 colt brass lasts A LONG TIME and with the acp brass your going to get alot of gunk in the chamber of your 45 colt thats going to be a bugger to clean.

[Lloyd Smale]

271394

I hate mine so much I take it with me wherever I go...

I also have 4 different 1911's but HATE picking up brass.

love that thing!!

[Lloyd Smale]

When I first started getting serious about handloading maybe 30 years ago, any range you went to you could haul off truck loads of 9mm brass from any range, but .45 shooters kept theirs. I don't shoot on public ranges much anymore, but for the past ten years or so, I could haul off more .45 ACP than 9mm, and ten times that of .40 S&W. Maybe your problem is regional, but from where I stand, the .45 ACP is more popular than ever.

i dont go to public ranges anymore. At least rarely do. I have my own range. Used to have guys bring me over brass all the time. For a while it was 45acp then came the 40s and about all I got from my cop buddys and prison guard buddys was 40s. Then recently the 9s took over. When you can find 9s there usually half the price of 40s or 45s anymore. Used to be you could hardly give away 40 brass now its almost as rare in the classifieds as 45 is. It may be a regional thing rich but i watch on here and on a couple other forums and i havent saw any 45acp in months and very little 40s either and when there selling the there pretty proud of it. I guess my main reason is that i have so much 9 and 40s loaded that my stash of 45s looks small in comparison and winters just starting and im already about out of reloading projects. The 556 loading will be done today and then i have about a 1000 9s i shot in the last month to load back up and i need a project. that and i might break down and by pc carbine of some sort in 45 and then my use will probably double overnight.

[dverna]

I used to shoot a lot of .45's and had three Kimbers in that caliber. Had a 1050 set up in .45 and never loaded anything else on it. Wound up selling it as I was not using it. One Kimber I gave to my son, and a buddy is buying the other one. I will be down to one and not sure I will keep it. If I did not have 8k bullets for the .45 I would sell the last .45 for sure. Might sell/trade the LP brass for SP so I do not have to switch our primer systems.

I used to carry the Kimbers, but once I stopped being such a gun snob, went to those evil plastic pistols. Lot's of reasons why I drifted away from the .45's, but the one was the triggers on the Kimbers were too good and I was worried about an AD if I got into a situation were I was crapping my drawers and pumped up on adrenaline.

I like having more than 7 rounds in a carry gun and not needing a spare magazine. Then with the Glocks in .40 I can get a 9mm barrel and mags and have two popular calibers on one frame with a 5 minute change over. The newer bullet technology closed the performance gap the .45's had as well.

I shoot both 9mm and .40's in the semi's and have not fired a .45 in 5 years. 9mm and .40 brass is so cheap, I do not get anal about losing a few. Mostly shoot .38's for fun now as i hate picking up brass.

[ioon44]

I don't shoot .45 ACP's any more but then I don't shoot them any less, with 6 of them I shoot some every week.

[MUSTANG]

Several decades ago (at least 35 years ago) I would occasionally have problems with chambering on a .45acp round. Started using a taper crimp die for .45ACP and have not had a problem since. I also use taper crimp dies for 9mm and 40 S&W; as well as .223, .308, and 30-06 when loading cast bollits.

[elmacgyver0]

I put together a 45 from parts I picked up here and there, cheapest stuff I could find. (poor man's 45)
Built on an Essex frame.
It will chamber a piece of empty brass from the magazine.
All just a matter of getting things right.

[1hole]

I love my old 1911. It shoots quite well and gobbles up anything I load for it. It's sad that we are so susceptable to fads in both guns and cartridges.

I also love my .357 Black Hawk and S&W .44 mag. Both are highly accurate and, like the .45 ACP, they shoot well above the league of current pop-gun cartridges. In fact, the highly hyped 9mm wonder gun is little more than a .38 +P with light-for-caliber bullets!

I believe a .357 revolver is still the best all-around rig for all shooters and all purposes on the market; it far out performs the 9 and 10 mm.

Reloads that won't easily chamber rises from ONE problem; they're too big in one or more dimension - find that and fix it. Perhaps the most common cause of jamming is reloading oversized cast bullets.

[375supermag]

Hi...
Don't really have a problem with .45ACP brass.
I have lots stashed away.
Always seems to be some laying around at the two gun clubs where I have memberships.
Sometimes other shooters will give me their fired brass.

I usually have to sweep the fired 9mm brass off the wooden deck at one of the gun clubs, there is generally so much of it laying around that it isn't safe to walk. I have thousands of that caliber also.

What I never find is big bore revolver brass...probably haven't found more than a dozen or so pieces of any caliber over .38/357 this entire year.
I did find a few pieces of .45AE brass laying around the rifle range one day about a year ago.

[John Boy]

https://www.capitalcartridge.com/45-acp-brass-nickel-s/115.htm

[tja6435]

I just loaded 1200 45’s with LBT 452-230-LFN over 7.8gr VV3N37, shoots very good in the SR1911 Dougguy throated for me.

[mdi]

I believe the influx of "Wonder 9s" with newer shooters and reloaders has cut into 45 ACP sales. Some who only reload for money reasons go with the smaller cartridge because components are cheaper. Many new 9mm striker fired, "plastic" pistols are cheaper than a full/normal sized 45 ACP. Many are recoil shy and a 380 or 9mm is much easier to shoot then a 45 ACP. The military adoption of the 9mm also had an affect on 45 ACP popularity. There are other reasons (9mm is a "cool" cartridge), but the 45 ACP hasn't gotten "worse" just surpassed by a small lighter shooting, mega magazine capacity, 9mm pistols...

[W.R.Buchanan]

I just shot 400 rounds of .45 ACP in my Glock 21SF two weeks ago at Front Sight. Plenty of 1911's in that class too. I shoot this gun much better than either my G35 or G23 in .40S&W,,, which is another caliber that people refuse to believe is better than the 9MM!

However my Glock has had only 2 Factory rounds fired in it. The other 5000+ have been my reloads with either plated boolits or my Cast and PC'd Lyman 452374 boolits. Both are plenty good for shooting at Paper or Steel Targets.

Randy

[Winger Ed.]

I believe the influx of "Wonder 9s" with newer shooters and reloaders has cut into 45 ACP sales.

At our range, there are so many pistol cases on the ground it looks like gravel.
I pick up my .45s, and all the other ones I see, plus a hand full of .38s, the .45s that I didn't fire usually will fit in my hat.
All the rest is 90% 9mm & .40S&W.

When I qualified for my CCW, I was the only one in the class with a .45 auto.
I was on the left end, and felt like Arlo Guthrie when I started shooting----
'and they all moved away from me on the group W bench'.

[Gunslinger1911]

Winger Ed - "and creating a disturbance"; And they all came back.

[Gunslinger1911]

I still see some 45 acp in the range bucket (the few times I go).
LOTSA 9mm, some 40
15 years ago it was LOTSA 40, some 9
Me thinks 40 has lost it's charm. Round count guys want more in mag, caliber guys want 45.
The 40 was a compromise, I (and others don't compromise). 40 seemed "whippy" to me anyway.
I got 2k 45 from DiamondK a few months ago (they are still flush, just checked, I may get some more, ya know - just in case).
I'm wondering if the "real" shooters (ya know, real cartridges start with 4 or end in magnum), are hoardin their 45acp cases for the coming festivities.
And a 1911 that's finicky ? Something wrong with the gun there. Guessing under spec chamber. (Buddy has a Kimber 380 with that issue)

45acp is my favorite round - full size Springfield 1911, full sized RI 1911, Colt Officers (carry gun), Smith 625, and recently I built an AR15 in 45acp - now that's a hoot boy and girls ! (Glock mags) (didja know ya could get 28 round 45acp mags for a Gock ?)
Cheap to shoot, doesn't have the ear wrenching crack of a 223, and is gods caliber as someone mentioned.
Col Cooper loves his children

Looking for a convertible Blackhawk to round out the stable.
And no, I couldn't afford the Marlin 1894 45acp conversion darn it ! Would a been sweet !

And I have a metric butt ton of large pistol primers, not so much small, for the 9; family needed to stock up the feed their crunch-n-tickers (we'll see who gets the ref). I loaded 3000 9mm in a week.
Ya try and try, to edjumicate them, they still want the tactical tupperware in 9.
Don't get me wrong, I carry a HiPower sometimes for the cool factor (and don't feel under gunned)
And sometimes, if I'm feeling sporty, a HiPower in 41AE - yea, I'm that guy.

[gwpercle]

Back in the day everyone shot 45 acp and the 9mm Luger was despised as that whimpy German round .
I stated shooting handguns in 1961 and never owned a 9mm luger until 5 or 6 years ago when my Dad gave me a WWII era Walther P38 he had for some strange reason ... my Dad wasn't a handgunner ... it lived in his sock drawer . After he gave me the P38 , I had to shoot , cast and reload for it ... but before that time it was 45 acp and in 1911 form !
Casting , reloading and shooting the 45 acp is like taking a pretty girl on a date ... nice , easy and a lot of fun !

Back in the 1970's I would get up early Sunday morning and sweep up at the local public range...I still have buckets of 45 acp brass and 38 special too !
Gary

[Kevin Rohrer]

I believe the influx of "Wonder 9s" with newer shooters and reloaders has cut into 45 ACP sales. Some who only reload for money reasons go with the smaller cartridge because components are cheaper. Many new 9mm striker fired, "plastic" pistols are cheaper than a full/normal sized 45 ACP. Many are recoil shy and a 380 or 9mm is much easier to shoot then a 45 ACP. The military adoption of the 9mm also had an affect on 45 ACP popularity. There are other reasons (9mm is a "cool" cartridge), but the 45 ACP hasn't gotten "worse" just surpassed by a small lighter shooting, mega magazine capacity, 9mm pistols...

Yes, there is a definite lack of testosterone in this generation, along w/ using guns that allow "spray and pray" shooting. Sad.

[Winger Ed.]

along w/ using guns that allow "spray and pray" shooting. Sad.

Every time I hear that phrase, I'm reminded of the S&W team shooter who said, "You can't miss fast enough to win".

[richhodg66]

I love my old 1911. It shoots quite well and gobbles up anything I load for it. It's sad that we are so susceptable to fads in both guns and cartridges.

I also love my .357 Black Hawk and S&W .44 mag. Both are highly accurate and, like the .45 ACP, they shoot well above the league of current pop-gun cartridges. In fact, the highly hyped 9mm wonder gun is little more than a .38 +P with light-for-caliber bullets!

I believe a .357 revolver is still the best all-around rig for all shooters and all purposes on the market; it far out performs the 9 and 10 mm.

Reloads that won't easily chamber rises from ONE problem; they're too big in one or more dimension - find that and fix it. Perhaps the most common cause of jamming is reloading oversized cast bullets.

Agreed, a .357 revolver is the end all to the handgun argument about what's best, but I'm kind of opinionated there.

[1hole]

Agreed, a .357 revolver is the end all to the handgun argument about what's best, but I'm kind of opinionated there.

It's hard to not have an "opinion" when you're honest with the facts! I know of nothing a handgun can do that isn't equalied with the old reliable .357.

[Winger Ed.]

Agreed, a .357 revolver is the end all to the handgun argument about what's best, but I'm kind of opinionated there.

My wheel guns are almost all gone, but my Marlin lever action in .38/357 is still a 'go-to' favorite
any time I want to shoot anything smaller than a deer or hog and inside of 100 yards.

Casting and re-loading, it doesn't cost much more to feed than the price of premium/decent .22LRs.

[Harter66]

I feel like Banger Jim may have intended for that to have been in purple .....

I have a few cases in the prep'd bucket and a few that need to be . I also have a few in clips and some more in mags . Probably more than that boxed and canned .
The Auto Rim sister isn't the answer that it seems like it should be .

A touch of blasphemy here ...... I ran a whole bunch of brass , ala' push through , through a gutted Lee FCD because I had chambering issues with the bottom 1/10 inch of the cases . The High Point Carbine doesn't care but the 1917 and Ruger BH ACPs were cranky about it . A quick pass through and no problem .

As for 9/40/45 I don't know what the big deal is .
The only advantage that the 9 has over 38+p especially over 130 gr is 8-14 rounds vs 5-8 .
The 45 is in fact the hammer that men in harm's way trusted for 60 years and the Corps for another 35 or so . It also makes the best part of a half inch hole and even if it doesn't make a hole it's hard to breath with broken ribs . A 900 fps 230 is a formidable impact no matter what shape it is .

I'll tell what I like about the 40 . The XD 2.5" I had would run a 175 LBT or RCBS RNFP and the TC/SWC thing at 940 fps and is just stupid easy to shoot . It'll run as hard as as any heavy 9mm will out of a long slide +P ever advertised . It's just not that far behind the 45 ACP in a similar package . 12 rd mags are nice also .

Cost to load is pretty close across all 3 , although you do get twice as many bullets per lb in 9mm vs 45 Colts .

I've got it the ultimate 9mm edge !
There aren't any LPP brass to throw off the flow !

[Der Gebirgsjager]

It's hard to not have an "opinion" when you're honest with the facts! I know of nothing a handgun can do that isn't equalied with the old reliable .357.

Aye, Lad, may well be true, but nothin' warms the cockles o' me heart like the ol' four an five. Just feels good, it does! :D

DG

[Winger Ed.]

Back in the day everyone shot 45 acp and the 9mm Luger was despised as that whimpy German round .


Reminds me of a buddy. When you came up all proud and wanted to show off your new acquisition:
He wouldn't tell ya he didn't like it or approve.

Instead, he'd say something like, "Yeah, my sister really likes hers".
Or, "I'll bet they sell a lot of those in San Francisco".

[Baltimoreed]

I usually shoot .45 something at any match that I go to, zombie, ipsc, Wild Bunch or cas. And while at 69 I’ll probably not ‘run out’ I still police up my brass and any other that left behind. Stuff that I can use will get cleaned and prepped while the stuff I don’t need becomes recycle brass.

[468]

.45 ACP FOREVER!!! LOL

It’s a great round. Comfortable to shoot. Easy to reload. The recoil is milder than a .40 or 10mm. There are about a bazillion good recipes. You can go basic traditional 1911, high capacity in steel or alloy, or composite. Compact to longslide...

“.38Spec., .357Mag. as well as .45ACP is drying up”...my three preferred calibers!

That being said, I pretty much enjoy shooting everything. But .45ACP, with it’s history, will always be a favorite.

[kevin c]

The pistol brass found at my range is driven by different things. The public line leavings reflect what Joe Public shoots, and that's quite a mix, mostly auto pistol and that mostly 9mm, though .40, .45 and revolver are there too. The action range bays are for police training, private self defense schools and action pistol competition. For all those, 9mm and 40 S&W make up almost all of what is shot. Even in a limited capacity magazine state, for agencies and the military standard capacity magazines are the norm, and grandfathered versions are common in competition. For all those users, the extra rounds in the mags, the greater controllability of recoil and for non competition use the similar terminal ballistics available through bullet design have made the 9mm much more common than 45 ACP, though JMB's SA design still dominates many action pistol divisions, just in smaller bored versions.

So, lotsa 9mm, a good amount of 40, and a little .45 ACP. Each year there's less .45, and 40 used to be more common than 9, but in recent years that's reversed.

[Lloyd Smale]

I still see some 45 acp in the range bucket (the few times I go).
LOTSA 9mm, some 40
15 years ago it was LOTSA 40, some 9
Me thinks 40 has lost it's charm. Round count guys want more in mag, caliber guys want 45.
The 40 was a compromise, I (and others don't compromise). 40 seemed "whippy" to me anyway.
I got 2k 45 from DiamondK a few months ago (they are still flush, just checked, I may get some more, ya know - just in case).
I'm wondering if the "real" shooters (ya know, real cartridges start with 4 or end in magnum), are hoardin their 45acp cases for the coming festivities.
And a 1911 that's finicky ? Something wrong with the gun there. Guessing under spec chamber. (Buddy has a Kimber 380 with that issue)

45acp is my favorite round - full size Springfield 1911, full sized RI 1911, Colt Officers (carry gun), Smith 625, and recently I built an AR15 in 45acp - now that's a hoot boy and girls ! (Glock mags) (didja know ya could get 28 round 45acp mags for a Gock ?)
Cheap to shoot, doesn't have the ear wrenching crack of a 223, and is gods caliber as someone mentioned.
Col Cooper loves his children

Looking for a convertible Blackhawk to round out the stable.
And no, I couldn't afford the Marlin 1894 45acp conversion darn it ! Would a been sweet !

And I have a metric butt ton of large pistol primers, not so much small, for the 9; family needed to stock up the feed their crunch-n-tickers (we'll see who gets the ref). I loaded 3000 9mm in a week.
Ya try and try, to edjumicate them, they still want the tactical tupperware in 9.
Don't get me wrong, I carry a HiPower sometimes for the cool factor (and don't feel under gunned)
And sometimes, if I'm feeling sporty, a HiPower in 41AE - yea, I'm that guy.

yup primers will have me shooting more 45s next summer. Ive got a ton of loaded 9s and 40s but am finishing up my 9 loading and will be down to two bricks of primers. Ive got two cases of large pistol so ill be much more apt to shoot my 45 stash because it can be replaced.

[gnappi]

I just shot 400 rounds of .45 ACP in my Glock 21SF two weeks ago at Front Sight. Plenty of 1911's in that class too. I shoot this gun much better than either my G35 or G23 in .40S&W,,, which is another caliber that people refuse to believe is better than the 9MM!

>>SNIP<< Randy

For sure!!! Go to a match on a windy day where they're forced to set up pepper poppers or other steel reactive targets at a steel match to not fall down from the wind and see the nines go...

Bang, clang, Bang, clang, Bang, clang, Bang, clang, on one popper or other steel target that doesn't fall and see the shooter abandon the poppers and take mikes, OR see their "tactics" of Bang,bang,bang,bang----clang,clang,clang,clang THUD (That's hysterical) and then watch a .40 go Bang, THUD --- next popper Bang, THUD... one shot each, one down steel.

Or a pin match where 18 round 9mm guns are leaving five pins on the table spinning around AND reloading while .45's .40's, 10's and .357 mags shoot five times and have no dead wood, and yet they STILL are delusional about the "power" of the 9mm.

I've seen that too many times.

Sorry don't mean to start a caliber war, but if you shoot a LOT and say you haven't seen this, you're ahem, looking the other way too much.

[Kevin Rohrer]

Yes, any case as small as the Wonder-9 has no room to grow, and it is definitely undersized and underpowered. Pass.

"The 9mm Punibellum. A cartridge fit only for women and Europeans." --Me

[AZ Pete]

Yes, any case as small as the Wonder-9 has no room to grow, and it is definitely undersized and underpowered. Pass.

"The 9mm Punibellum. A cartridge fit only for women and Europeans." --Me

yet it has probably accounted for more human deaths than any other caliber....

[RC46]

Yes, shot my Sig 220 today, in fact. Love the cal. and the Sig; also own a custom Colt 1911. What's not to like? Accuracy, check; mild recoil, check; fun factor, check; historical significance, check.

[mongo40]

I shoot it and have for years, so I've got a pretty healthy supply of brass as I always pick mine up, Haven't looked for any but with everything else being sold out it just goes to figure that it would be to, with the popularity of all the plastic pistols that shoot 9 and 40 you'd think there'd be plenty of 45 around.

[Bmi48219]

Ranges I frequent the ratio of centerfire brass lying about is:
9 mm 72%
10 mm <2%
40 7%
45 acp 15%
All others 4%

Once in a while see a lot of 40s, same with .380.
10mm are harder to find than chicken teeth.

[ioon44]

Ranges I frequent the ratio of centerfire brass lying about is:
9 mm 72%
10 mm <2%
40 7%
45 acp 15%
All others 4%

Once in a while see a lot of 40s, same with .380.
10mm are harder to find than chicken teeth.

That is close to what I find on a local range, after USPSA matches there is some .38 super, also find plenty of .223.

[dale2242]

I don`t frequent public ranges often.
Most of the shooting in this area is in rock pits and logging landings on public land.
I`m not seeing much brass left in the last few months with the ammo shortage.
Probably a lot less people shooting and/or people picking up their brass.

[1I-Jack]

My local police dept sure shoots a lot of 45 acp. I try to go to our Club's range that day after the local police have their Qual shoots. I usually get a grocery bag of 45acp, and another grocery bag of 223/556. It happens twice a year, but they like to do this in the wintertime, when snow covers our range...so then I have to wait for Spring, and try to be the first one there when it melts.

Same here :) I didn't realize they used our range because they have their own "tactical" range just down the road but I didn't check the club calendar earlier in the year and happened out at the range on one of the two days they use ours. Asked when they would be done and showed back up to collect a LOT of .223 and 45 ACP brass.

[Kevin Rohrer]

yet it has probably accounted for more human deaths than any other caliber....

Only in the inner-cities.

[onelight]

When 9mm is cheap I shoot a lot of factory loads , and a often don't pick it up. I always pick up my 45 brass.

[AZ Pete]

Only in the inner-cities.

and every battlefield in the 20th and 21st centuries

[gnappi]

yet it has probably accounted for more human deaths than any other caliber....

By virtue of sheer numbers of launching platforms in the population, your comment though while "probably" factual is like saying knives cause more wounds than garden clippers.

Things to consider (facts or fallacies depending on your biases) ...

1. A .40 or .45 make a larger hole. An unmistakable advantage for wound channel or target scoring.

2. Statistically, (I have read various anecdotal accounts / sources none confirmed) according to FBI stats which (are reasonable to accept as an axiom) say the average gunfight includes three rounds fired over three seconds from a distance of 3 yards. 9mm capacity advantage = zero that is unless you miss a lot. These stats are of likely averaged from one shot stops and PD's emptying hi cap 9's at perps and hitting air. Also if a gunfight ends in many multiple gunshots (as in say a drug deal gone bad) as might be expected saying "it has probably accounted for more human deaths" becomes a weighted "fact". The old crap on the wall sticking makes sense. Throw enough and invariably something sticks.

3. As far as the "caliber" goes, there are and have been superior cartridges on paper and in ballistic gel than the 9 para, but "diminutive" shooters object to the recoil. I have no issue with the caliber. In fact, I'm "diminutive" by male standards, and have no issue with carrying a .40 or .45 exclusively.

4. Also (anecdotally) no single typical defensive cartridge or caliber (excluding .380,.22, .25 etc which at earlobe range are as lethal as any) can claim superior stopping power in gunfights. All this postulating means nothing when confidence in what a man carries matters most be it capacity or caliber.

[AZ Pete]

I have made no claim about "greater magazine capacity", "diminutive shooter" or wound diameter. Dead is dead. The 9mm has been in service for a very long time and has been deemed acceptable by many armies, police departments and other armed forces for many, many decades.

Just because you prefer something larger, does not make it better for self defense or service use....unless you are fighting Grizzlies of course

[MUSTANG]

Shootem once with a .45 or multiple times with a 38/9mm. The reason why the US Army went to the .45 Colt & .45 Schofield and the .45 ACP moth than 100 years ago.

[10-x]

Amen Mustang. Carry a .45 cause they dont make a .46.

[VariableRecall]

Amen Mustang. Carry a .45 cause they dont make a .46.

So much for the "They Don't make a .46" when .50 Action Express exists....
That is, if you want to go down the Desert Eagle hole.

I suppose if you love huge handgun calibers, .500S&W would work if you want to be less of a tool.

[VariableRecall]

Also, in terms of you seeing .45 ACP drying up, perhaps it could be the case that people are likely just hoarding .45 ACP much like 9mm and other handgun calibers.

[AZ Pete]

Shootem once with a .45 or multiple times with a 38/9mm. The reason why the US Army went to the .45 Colt & .45 Schofield and the .45 ACP moth than 100 years ago.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the cavalry got the .45 Colt because it could bring down a horse.

[Kosh75287]

It's never fallen out of favor with ME! I shoot it by the BUCKET-load, time and money allowing! Although the round and its first platform were intended for short-range dispatch of bad guys and nothing more, both of them proved versatile enough to be favored for precision match shooting, action shooting, and more. With the advent of better-formulated propellants and the "+P" rating, a stock .45 ACP can even be loaded into a fully adequate (VERY) short-range white-tail getter, without straining anything inside.
In days when I could see better, I made a shot under time pressure on a man-sized steel silhouette at 131 yards with my competition pistol (I won the match, but not the tournament, sigh, alas). But the .45s flexibility in reloading was a big factor in making that hit. I was shooting a load that clocked just over 1000 f/s with a 200 gr. RNFP, which flattened the trajectory somewhat, and allowed me to connect. If I'd been running ball ammo (230 gr. FMJRN @ 830 f/s), I might STILL be trying to hear a "clang" from that silhouette.
I suspect the absence of spent brass laying around may owe to the apprehension of shooters regular shooters who may be picking it up for use in the near future. It's going to be a rough 4 years (at minimum) for gun owners, and I see a lot of people stocking up in ways I'd never considered likely.

[elmacgyver0]

I love the 45 acp just like I love every other caliber I own.

[Winger Ed.]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the cavalry got the .45 Colt because it could bring down a horse.

There was something I'd read years ago about the Army had armed Officers & NCO's with Colts in .38 Long.
Then in the Philippines, (1899-1902) revolutionaries all high on dope would take a few mortal wounding hits with them,
and still be able to cut ya in half with a hatchet before they 'expired'.
Then they went to the New Service revolver in .45 Long Colt.

[megasupermagnum]

Amen Mustang. Carry a .45 cause they dont make a .46.


Well... except the 460 rowland, 475 Wildey, 50 AE, and pleny more.

The 45 ACP is the largest, and most powerful of the light pistols. 10mm auto on up all require heavy guns, almost always a steel frame.

[elmacgyver0]

I have a few things that shoot .45 acp, that doesn't mean I dis respect other calibers.271768

[stubshaft]

I filled some cases up to empty this weekend.271770

[gnappi]

I have made no claim about "greater magazine capacity", "diminutive shooter" or wound diameter. Dead is dead. The 9mm has been in service for a very long time and has been deemed acceptable by many armies, police departments and other armed forces for many, many decades.

Just because you prefer something larger, does not make it better for self defense or service use....unless you are fighting Grizzlies of course

Actually, if you read my last reply carefully, I'm not in disagreement at all with what you said, just how you framed it.

When I said..."By virtue of sheer numbers of launching platforms in the population, your comment though while "probably" factual is like saying knives cause more wounds than garden clippers"
and: "Also (anecdotally) no single typical defensive cartridge or caliber (excluding .380,.22, .25 etc which at earlobe range are as lethal as any) can claim superior stopping power in gunfights.

Neither of us are incorrect, as I said, I'm in disagreement how you framed it like it MUST be good because everyone is using it.

[AZ Pete]

please explain, then, why the FBI, and many US police departments have left the .40 for the 9. They did a lot of real world analysis in selecting the 9 with modern ammunition. Not all of the police agencies and armed forces, world wide, that have selected the 9mm can be wrong.

[onelight]

please explain, then, why the FBI, and many US police departments have left the .40 for the 9. They did a lot of real world analysis in selecting the 9 with modern ammunition. Not all of the police agencies and armed forces, world wide, that have selected the 9mm can be wrong.
Issue guns have gotten lighter all else being equal they recoil less with small bullets , 9 s fit small hands better, when the shooter doesn't want to be there anyway a hit with any thing or perhaps even the report may cause them to leave or surrender , but the bottom line is $$$

[AZ Pete]

I think the recent FBI analysis went a little deeper than that.

And back to the original question, I still shoot a .45 acp some, just not as much, and no matter what I shoot, I don't leave my brass behind.

[MUSTANG]

please explain, then, why the FBI, and many US police departments have left the .40 for the 9. They did a lot of real world analysis in selecting the 9 with modern ammunition. Not all of the police agencies and armed forces, world wide, that have selected the 9mm can be wrong.


It almost always goes back to basics. It is easier to train most of the population (men and women) to shoot a 9mm more accurately than a .45ACP. Recoil; twist of the pistol in the hand due to mass differential of the bullets, and many other factors make it where most can shoot a 9mm more easily than a .45. With good training; almost anyone can be taught to shoot the .45 accurately; even that small petite 90 pound woman; just takes more time and hand on training.

The argumentative will go the route of saying: "Then why don't they all carry 22LR's". The answer is because the accuracy will go up; but the lethality/stopping power goes down with a .22LR to unacceptable levels. An argument for the 9mm still having sufficient stopping power allows it to be traded off for the greater recoil and other problem areas with the 40S&W, 10MM, .45acp etc..

When it comes to "Stopping Power" there are always outliers. two cases come to mind.

Many decades ago the MP's at Camp Pendleton apprehended a person at the main gate for aberrant behavior and took him to the Camp Pendleton Hospital. He became enraged at the hospital and managed to break away and get an improvised weapon, where upon the MP's shot him; two MP's shot 7 times each with .45's and he was still trying to attack them and others as he died on the floor. PCP and other drugs can do strange things in a body.

Not quite as many decades ago my Brother in Law was a LEO in Amarillo where he and 3 other officers (they rode two officers per car back then) pulled a "Wrong Way Driver" over. The driver jumped out with a tire iron and attacked the officers. With three .357's and one .41 Mag the "Wrong Way Drive" was shot 22 times before he finally quit and laid down and died on site. PCP once again.

[rbuck351]

The reason many law enforcement departments went to 9mm is because it is easier to train folks to shoot that don't want to practice. And, the ammo is cheaper so more can be trained for less cost. While working for DOC, I shot with LEO folks a bit and found many don't shoot well. In our DOC only our transportation officers were trained and authorized to carry handguns. Our department chose the Glock 22 (40S&W). Although our qualification standards weren't all that high, many officers struggled to qualify. We also used the 870 Rem where all officers were supposed to qualify yearly. As a range master, I was able to take many of the officers to the range to qualify. If they didn't qualify they weren't allowed to man armed posts. As shotgun ammo (00buck and slugs) is expensive there was no yearly training only yearly quals. Many of our officers did not own 870 Rem shot guns or for that matter any firearms. Without expensive ammo and training time these folks were difficult to get qualified.
Less than 5% of our officers were qualified as prisoner transportation officers (PTO) because they couldn't meet quals. You had to "shoot in" to even be allowed to take the PTO training. Ammo and training are both expensive and many decisions are directly related to cost. 9mm is cheaper than 45 and we all know the modern ammo has made the 9 as effective as the 45 ball ammo and for some reason you can't shoot modern ammo in your 45 to make it even more effective.

[VariableRecall]

From my experience with .45 ACP it's going to take some time and experience to get better. I've honestly had a lot better groups with my Model 10, but we are all making progress.

While I see the appeal of higher recoil, "stopping power" calibers, people have to start somewhere. For me, 38 Special is soft shooting and comfortable to use. .45 ACP has stiff recoil, but I wouldn't call it unpleasant.

[gnappi]

The reason many law enforcement departments went to 9mm is because it is easier to train folks to shoot that don't want to practice. >>SNIP<<

Thanks for your further explanation of some of the logistical reasons for department equipment selection.

I've been to four NRA Law Enforcement training classes with a minimum of 23 licensed LEO's in attendance at each from many municipalities. All were there to get certified for their department as an instructor. The vast majority of them breezed through the course, but in each class there were some that actually needed some remedial training. The class instructors could not dedicate time to that task and typically paired those who needed help with those of us who were well able to sort them out.

From officers who "didn't like" guns (and / or did not own a personal firearm), to those who were given instructions by instructors who should have been a desk jockey, to some that were secretly fearful of firearms, we have seen it all. Invariably they all did well when paired with us. As to whether or not they prospered as instructors I have no idea.

As to your mentioning... " I shot with LEO folks a bit and found many don't shoot well" Having had so much time with LEOs in classes and shooting competition with them... Many officers who shoot a LOT have a nagging concern that if a shoot goes down and the attorneys for the deceased get wind of them shooting competition they "could" exploit the extra training as the officer being a "Rambo" wannabe.

Imagine that? Doing your best to train so that you increase your chances of staying alive being turned against you? That's an unnecessary mental burden no officer should have to worry about.

[Lloyd Smale]

The reason many law enforcement departments went to 9mm is because it is easier to train folks to shoot that don't want to practice. And, the ammo is cheaper so more can be trained for less cost. While working for DOC, I shot with LEO folks a bit and found many don't shoot well. In our DOC only our transportation officers were trained and authorized to carry handguns. Our department chose the Glock 22 (40S&W). Although our qualification standards weren't all that high, many officers struggled to qualify. We also used the 870 Rem where all officers were supposed to qualify yearly. As a range master, I was able to take many of the officers to the range to qualify. If they didn't qualify they weren't allowed to man armed posts. As shotgun ammo (00buck and slugs) is expensive there was no yearly training only yearly quals. Many of our officers did not own 870 Rem shot guns or for that matter any firearms. Without expensive ammo and training time these folks were difficult to get qualified.
Less than 5% of our officers were qualified as prisoner transportation officers (PTO) because they couldn't meet quals. You had to "shoot in" to even be allowed to take the PTO training. Ammo and training are both expensive and many decisions are directly related to cost. 9mm is cheaper than 45 and we all know the modern ammo has made the 9 as effective as the 45 ball ammo and for some reason you can't shoot modern ammo in your 45 to make it even more effective.

yup and add to that the fact that more and more women are going in the miltary and are becomming police and the 9 is just easier to shoot. Better? I hear all the time that the 9 is as good because of the new high tech bullets. News flash. those bullets are available in 40 and 45 too. High tech in a bigger size. Ive shot and hunted all my life. Spent 8 years in the military and ill say this. Ive NEVER seen where smaller is better or killed better. If you can handle it bigger is always better. If you cant you need more practice. A 9 will never be as effective as a 45 just like a 357 will never be a 44 mag no matter what magic bullet you think you have.

[AZ Pete]

Do you think that more women in the Army was a consideration when the German armed forces adopted the 9 mm in 1908?

[shootzemm58]

Ive shot ALOT of 45acp from a variety of 1911`s, Factory and race guns, all with reloads and not had the problems your describing. Were it my gun I'd strip and clean the slide thoroughly and Lightly lube it, Polish the feed ramp without changing the angle and then take a hard look at the brass i had. Especially trim length and COAL. I always clean my brass load to load. And disassemble and clean my die sets, they can get pretty grungy after just a couple hundred loadings. And remember its a machine, like your car/truck and metal wears with use. Replace the extractor and firing pin spring and check/replace the recoil spring matched to the load you commonly shoot. All these parts are available on the net, and no Covid!. As to Moon clips, well...i don`t know.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Great thread on a reoccurring subject, the grand old .45 ACP vs. the 9mm Parabellum. As touched on by some, it isn't your granddad's 9mm anymore. Bullet improvements like the Speer Gold Dot, PMC Starfire, Corbon, etc., etc. have made it a much more effective round. Even the lowly .380 ACP has moved up the ladder to almost acceptable for self-defense with bullet and load improvement.

I have to agree with the logically indisputable opinion of Lloyd S. that all things being equal, bigger will always be better. However, one has to contemplate just what is "good enough" or "adequate" to get the job done. I mean, incapacitated is incapacitated, and dead is dead. There are just so many combinations of pistols and calibers available today that it boggles the mind. If you want .45 ACP in a tiny package it is available with the recoil factor making it undesirable for some, and if you want to shoot all day with one magazine there are huge 9mm pistols that are difficult to conceal. And, everything in between, where the best choices are usually found.

I'm searching for the right word here to describe the entry of small statured females into the police and military services in larger numbers, and can't find exactly what I'm looking for, but I think "sad" and "unfortunate" come close. Unfortunate for the standard issue male officer or soldier who deserves and expects a partner or comrade of equal size and ability. In my highly biased opinion if "she" can't handle the more effective weapon, and handle it well, then "he" is cheated. If "he" has the same problem, then both should be seeking more suitable employment.

I've always carried a 1911 .45 ACP by choice, but sometimes weather and dress dictate something smaller and lighter. Viva el .45! :Fire:

DG

[Kevin Rohrer]

The reason many law enforcement departments went to 9mm is because it is easier to train folks to shoot that don't want to practice. And, the ammo is cheaper so more can be trained for less cost. While working for DOC, I shot with LEO folks a bit and found many don't shoot well. In our DOC only our transportation officers were trained and authorized to carry handguns. Our department chose the Glock 22 (40S&W). Although our qualification standards weren't all that high, many officers struggled to qualify. We also used the 870 Rem where all officers were supposed to qualify yearly. As a range master, I was able to take many of the officers to the range to qualify. If they didn't qualify they weren't allowed to man armed posts. As shotgun ammo (00buck and slugs) is expensive there was no yearly training only yearly quals. Many of our officers did not own 870 Rem shot guns or for that matter any firearms. Without expensive ammo and training time these folks were difficult to get qualified.
Less than 5% of our officers were qualified as prisoner transportation officers (PTO) because they couldn't meet quals. You had to "shoot in" to even be allowed to take the PTO training. Ammo and training are both expensive and many decisions are directly related to cost. 9mm is cheaper than 45 and we all know the modern ammo has made the 9 as effective as the 45 ball ammo and for some reason you can't shoot modern ammo in your 45 to make it even more effective.

And don't forget that the 9mm Punibellum has less recoil and is more controllable for women and girly-men who do nothing except warm chairs (e.g. the FBI). What is sad is the situation we have found ourselves in where a non-Police agency dictates what Police forces should carry. Sad.

[Kevin Rohrer]

Great thread on a reoccurring subject, the grand old .45 ACP vs. the 9mm Parabellum. As touched on by some, it isn't your granddad's 9mm anymore. Bullet improvements like the Speer Gold Dot, PMC Starfire, Corbon, etc., etc. have made it a much more effective round. Even the lowly .380 ACP has moved up the ladder to almost acceptable for self-defense with bullet and load improvement.


DG

I fully expect that in 10-20 years the FBI will dictate the .380 as the ideal self-defense round for them, and the Police.

[John Wayne]

I fully expect that in 10-20 years the FBI will dictate the .380 as the ideal self-defense round for them them, and the Police.

No Kevin...it will be air soft by then!

[gnappi]

WOW, how to get off topic...

Lloyd said... "use to be there was always lost of once fired brass for sale on the net. Now i rarely see it"

And you're right, 9mm was cheap to shoot, had minimal shooter fatigue, high capacity and was fun to shoot.

Like the 1994 hi cap mag ban which saw a LOT of peeps going back to larger bullets, the same thing is likely to happen with the scarcity and cost of 9's. Why shoot a "modern" 9mm, when as another poster said larger caliber bullets have evolved too!

We may even see another hi cap mag ban soon. What then? like in the 90's carry less of more or less of less? That may be a question for the near future, but I "think" I already know the answer :-)

[Gunslinger1911]

Hot dang ! Caliber war !!

[Gunslinger1911]

Waaay back, I researched as much as I could (morgue monsters v/s Jello junkies ring a bell ?)
Seemed prudent
Ayoob v/s Sanow ?

Life or death situation is very fluid - no two will ever be the same. You have to go with what YOU are comfortable with.
Is there a 100 % right answer ? NO
Is there a 100 % wrong answer ? within reason, no
If you can put 10 shots from a Ruger Mark "X" in the chest in 2 seconds, you'll prob win

My 2 cents (worth less than the price)
99% of "bad guys" will bail at the sight of a gun
Of that 1% left, 99% will curl up and cry if shot (effectively-center mass) with just about anything
The 1% left of these are the problem, drugs, booze, body armor, just plain big bad sob.
Think Miami "shoot out". Feds decided 9mm didn't cut it IN THAT SITUATION.

Most agree, 357 125g HP rules as a man stopper.
(44 doesn't dump enough energy into the body on it's way through)

Can't quite get that in a auto loader - OK, you wanna buy / carry a Coonan ? lol
Guess I shouldn't laugh, thought about it.
No, the 357 Sig uses 9mm bullets, not the same
Ammo companies messed up, build an auto cartridge around the Rem .357 125 "tulip jacket" HP.
Get it up to 1400+ f/s in a 4-5" bbl.
THAT comes under the heading of "TAKE MY MONEY !"
It's possible, I sized down some Rem tulips, played around with making them "slippery" (no, don't ask), loaded in 38 Super Comp brass. Ramped bbl. Heavy spring for caliber.
5" 1911 - 1450 f/s
And no, I have NO idea what the pressure is, It worked for me. I wouldn't suggest trying.

I LOVE to debate caliber for "whatever". SD, hunting, 1000 yd, etc.
If YOU are confident in what you use, that's the better part of the journey.

Be well my friends, weird times a commin'.

[dale2242]

My minimum defense caliber is the 40S&W. 45ACP preferred.
The local meth heads and pot growers here shoot one another with 9MMs with FMJ ammo.
They get a trip to the hospital, the doctors dig the bullets out and send them home.
Seldom does one of them die from the gun shot wounds unless hit in the head.
Your results may vary.....

[Baltimoreed]

Many years ago one of my wife’s students came to an unfortunate end after he stole weed from his dealer, jumped into his car and attempted to flee. The dealer thug shot him in the head through the back glass with his .45, don’t know the gunmaker. Sad true story of 2 wasted lives. Really upset my wife as she loved all her kids. Taught English in a rural NC school for 30 years, even taught children of students that she had taught.

[468]

Do you think that more women in the Army was a consideration when the German armed forces adopted the 9 mm in 1908?

No. They just didn’t have the .45 ACP until 1911.

^no clue if that is true or not.

[468]

I filled some cases up to empty this weekend.271770
What a coincidence! I emptied some this week to fill this weekend.

[AZ Pete]

No. They just didn’t have the .45 ACP until 1911.

^no clue if that is true or not.

actually John Browning invented the .45 acp cartridge in 1904...

Nice you use a SDB. Love mine, got it to load .45 acp, but expanded to .38 spl. .44 spl., .41 mag, then 9mm. Dillon eventually replaced my 9mm sizer die because the original wore out, after the SDB was rebuilt the first time..

[Lloyd Smale]

Hot dang ! Caliber war !!

If you dont pack a 500 linebaugh your a girl[smilie=w:

[Dave C.]

Real men shoot 45acp one handed.

[Kevin Rohrer]

Real men shoot 45acp one handed.

Yup

272010

[10-x]

500 S&W, lol. Buddy got one when they first came out years ago. Took it up to our hunting club in Floyd, Va., shot it at ~225 yds at B-27 target. I used light weight gloves and after 1 cylinder, gave it back to him. All rounds in the black but hand felt like a Nun had used a ruler on it. Sorry, do not want any pistol or revolver that messes up one’s hand. Either .45 is fine with me as have nerve damage in both hands and arms.

[downzero]

Funny you mention that, because I don't think I've shot even a single round of .45 ACP this year.

[JWFilips]

The 45 Auto is the easiest Auto to load Cast bullets in hands down!
If you have a problem ....yes you do have a problem! Guess you have to figure that out!
The 45 is probably the most accurate Auto also ! But 50 /50 with the 32 acp! That little one is very accurate

[Lloyd Smale]

500 S&W, lol. Buddy got one when they first came out years ago. Took it up to our hunting club in Floyd, Va., shot it at ~225 yds at B-27 target. I used light weight gloves and after 1 cylinder, gave it back to him. All rounds in the black but hand felt like a Nun had used a ruler on it. Sorry, do not want any pistol or revolver that messes up one’s hand. Either .45 is fine with me as have nerve damage in both hands and arms.

back when i shot ppc for some fun i showed up at a shoot one day with my ruger alaskan 454 that was cut for moon clips. Shot a match with full power 300 grain loads. After the first segment the buddy who ran the shoot had to stop and have me finish by myself because the noise and concusion had the others even missing the target. I finished the round by myself and shot a 287/300. My normal average that time was about a 295/300. Guys still tell the story when i go to shoots today. I usually placed in the expert revolver class but didnt that day but when they handed out the trophys they called my name and i got a trophy for being the craziest sob that ever shot in that league.