NY RSO killed during USPCA event

[shooterg]

Any of you NY guys have details ? Not a good thing !

[nagantguy]

No , not in NY but I hadn’t heard this-terrible news for the RSO and his family and assuming this is an accident the guy whom caused it.

[varmintpopper]

Try This:

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/ny-range-safety-officer-killed-by-negligent-discharge-during-uspsa-competition/

Good Shooting

Lindy

[Shawlerbrook]

That is horrible ! I am surprised our egotistical gun hating Governor hasn’t chimed in yet.

[megasupermagnum]

The comments only hint that the gun was dropped while holstering, and discharged. I have no idea if it is true. It is a very unfortunate incident, police determined it an accidental discharge, not intentional.

[contender1]

I'm assuming you meant a USPSA event?

I'm a RSO & run USPSA matches at my range.
Tragic.
Awaiting more details.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

That is the biggest fear for a club that hosts matches. A serious injury or death could easily be the end of the club with lawyers getting involved.

[MrWolf]

Was trap shooting at an ATA event in South Jersey when someone - behind the line of shooters - decided to play with his shotgun. Took a nice piece out of the base of a wooden post. That will make your heart skip a beat. He was promptly evicted to never return. You just never know. Be safe folks.

[nagantguy]

At a private club a few years ago I actually called the police because of the insanity in witnessed, old guy took his grandkids to the range- cool! Except no hearing protection no eye protection and he started them - I’d guess boys 9-11 or so on full house 44 loads and yelled at them for not hitting the target and then he breakers out his AR and as the first boy was shooting actually putting rounds down range the old idiot steps over the line of fire and try’s to deploy the flip up sights and the kid who didn’t know what to do just dropped the rifle.
When I told them all to stop and step back and asked the old guy for his range card ID he went into a rage, I took a picture of his license plate called the police and range President and got the hell out of there- no one got hurt just by a miracle and he was booted permanently from the club. Terrifying

[clum553946]

I was shooting a steel challenge match when there was a novice on the line. When he drew he literally dropped his pistol & all of us behind the line went diving to the ground or behind a post (that’s what I did.) It’s something that you never forget as I’m always vigilant now when I’m at a match & the RO says “ shooter is ready, stand by!

[fatnhappy]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/greece-man-dies-after-accidental-shooting-at-indoor-range/ar-BB1aSrp3

[David2011]

My heart goes out to the RO and his family as well as all involved and present.

There were only two of us at the range and we agreed to call it cold. While I was changing targets I heard the unmistakable sound of the other guy's bolt racking. He told me he was just making sure the AR-15 was clear, while I was down range. While I was discussing the meaning of a cold range with him I saw something on his belt. It was his badge. HE WAS A POLICE OFFICER! Then I really chewed on him.

One day I asked some shooting friends at a USPSA match if I was the only one that had concerns about shooting myself while drawing my gun. Every one of them said they shared the same concern.

[Sig556r]

Devoid of details from the incident, accidental discharge can only happen while shooter is engaged in a USPSA course of fire or unauthorized handling of a loaded firearm outside of it. If its the latter, that may be a negligent discharge with legal repercussions, if the former, fundamental safety protocols must've been breached. In an indoor range, ricochet is a possibility depending on backstop & sidewall compositions.
My heart goes out to a fellow RSO's family...

[Plate plinker]

Unfortunate and unfortunately there are people out there who are a menace. Safety first and above all at the range.

[enfield]

with all these great examples of poor handling of firearms, do those that have witnessed these dangerous activities believe that these people should still be able to possess , carry and / or visit our ranges. I'm just curious what people have for an opinion.

[megasupermagnum]

with all these great examples of poor handling of firearms, do those that have witnessed these dangerous activities believe that these people should still be able to possess , carry and / or visit our ranges. I'm just curious what people have for an opinion.

We don't even truly know what happened yet. Accidents in the shooting competitions are so insanely rare it is hardly worth worrying over. They are about the safest sport competitions there are.

[MrWolf]

with all these great examples of poor handling of firearms, do those that have witnessed these dangerous activities believe that these people should still be able to possess , carry and / or visit our ranges. I'm just curious what people have for an opinion.

There is no way to guarantee it will not happen anywhere. We can train, teach, inform, and share experiences to further educate. Realize the number of gun owners is increasing and partially due to the Chinese flu, a lot of them were not able to get training. There is a chance for increased incidents but there is also a chance you will get hit by lightning. Depends on how you look at life.

[fatnhappy]

Since it was a competition shoot I seriously doubt anyone involved is a neophyte. That being said, familiarity breeds contempt, and I've seen just as many safety violations from avid shooters as new shooter simply because they're very comfortable with their firearms. I like to call it casual stupidity.

I have no idea whatsoever how a RSO (which I am) found himself a shooting victim nor do I wish to speculate.

There's an ongoing criminal investigation. One of the sales guys in my company shoots there regularly and was likely in the competition. I haven't spoken with him yet. I know we have a couple members that shoot at the Genesee conservation league. Zombie Woof springs to mind. I'm not a member there, it's not a convenient drive for me, but I've shot there any number of times and several friends are members.

[Martin Luber]

There have been ricochet shots from plates that have caused serious injury. Not to say there aren't careless or arrogant shooters. I worry more about some of the old soaks in our regional league than the juniors.

Saw a riccochet on a trap field even. Kid in a lawn chair on the 27 yd line. Man shoots target, target breaks, split second later kid goes down with a single pellet in his cheek.

[flyingmonkey35]

I have been a certified RSO for years.

And I have had two AD go off on me.

One while I was in front of the firing line giving a safety briefing.

Black powder shoot guy out of the blue walks up in the middle of the safety verifying to pop a cap. And kaboom.

Yes it was poniten at the ground a foot away from him.

But I was pissed. Not just at the guy but the others around him.


2nd offense

I was chatting with a guy who was showing off his 22 on the firing libe and pulled the trigger it went off even though he swore it was unloaded.

it was pointed down range so no injuries

Rule 1 the gun is always loaded.





Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Old School Big Bore]

Training helps but there's a catch-22 inherent, as the students and their instructor need to survive the training to get the students up to "competent".
I had two different students, decades apart, shoot the ground inches from my foot. Both went to find a shovel while the line was cold and I lectured their classmates. Both recovered their boolit and thereafter wore it as a pendant - if I encountered them not wearing it they owed me pushups.
The first two gun shows I attended back in the '70s, I was within ten feet of ADs. Those incidents were part of the impetus to zip-tie weapons entering gun shows. I did not attend another gun show for literally decades. At my original agency where I was the "firearms incident investigator" in addition to every other task that involved things going BOOM, I investigated six different NDs by our deputies and I'm sure there were more wherein no one was advised.
Keep your booger hook off the bang button until it's time to bring the hate.
Ed <><

[Hamish]

There is absolutely no such this as an “accidental” firearm discharge.

[downzero]

I was shooting a steel challenge match when there was a novice on the line. When he drew he literally dropped his pistol & all of us behind the line went diving to the ground or behind a post (that’s what I did.) It’s something that you never forget as I’m always vigilant now when I’m at a match & the RO says “ shooter is ready, stand by!


The RO should never say that. The command is "Are you ready?" (a question), followed by "Standby." There is no "shooter is ready."

If it's really true that a person died from a dropped gun, that is truly sad and unfortunate. Obviously a dropped gun is serious and all of us as certified range officers (I've been one for over 10 years) are trained in how to pick up a dropped gun. We all hope to never see that happen, but it is an unfortunate reality of competition.

My range master instructor who taught my RO course stressed that the worst injuries he'd ever seen in competition were skinned knees and elbows from falling. It's such a bummer to hear about this. I have ran thousands of shooters at many major matches and it's been such a joy to do so. If I died doing it, I'd hope people remembered what a joy it's been for me to do it for all these years. Shooters are great people.

[clum553946]

The RO should never say that. The command is "Are you ready?" (a question), followed by "Standby." There is no "shooter is ready."

If it's really true that a person died from a dropped gun, that is truly sad and unfortunate. Obviously a dropped gun is serious and all of us as certified range officers (I've been one for over 10 years) are trained in how to pick up a dropped gun. We all hope to never see that happen, but it is an unfortunate reality of competition.

My range master instructor who taught my RO course stressed that the worst injuries he'd ever seen in competition were skinned knees and elbows from falling. It's such a bummer to hear about this. I have ran thousands of shooters at many major matches and it's been such a joy to do so. If I died doing it, I'd hope people remembered what a joy it's been for me to do it for all these years. Shooters are great people.
Actually the sequence goes, asking the shooter “Are you ready?” If the shooter acknowledges yes, then the quote I originally posted is announced. I just condensed it. So, when I hear the last part of the quote & Im behind the line, I make sure I’m paying attention! Also, I disagree, the RO should alway announce “shooter is ready” after affirming the shooter is ready to go so the shooters & spectators behind the line know that live firing is about to commence.

[cas]

Shooter made ready and messed up the re-holster, dropping the gun on the concrete floor. (CZ Shadow I believe) Landed on the hammer and discharged.

[fatelk]

I realize that many who train in safety use the phrase "Don't tell me it was an accident! There's no such thing as accidents!"

While it's a useful phrase to teach the importance of safety, it's not true, at least not by the dictionary definition of the word "accident".
accident: noun -an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.

So, unless the shooting was intentional, it was an accident. Accidents are most often caused by negligence, so the vast majority of accidental shootings are negligent accidental shooting, and simply calling something an accident is no excuse for negligence. Sorry, don't mean to go all grammar nazi; I understand (and agree with) the intent behind saying that there are no such thing as accidental shootings, but it's just not technically true.

[bdicki]

There was an older gentleman at the skeet range that would pop the primer out of shells and fill the primer hole with silicone and use them for snap caps. One day it wasn't one of his special shells and he blew a hole in the parking lot and scared the crap out of a bunch of shooters.

[Deakota57]

Prayers for his family, sad to lose anyone. I was a range safety officer in the Army.. I know every moment there is a chance of something could go wrong, at the same time you are relying on your training to get you through for the next day.. May he Rest In Peace. prayers again for the family and to all who knew him.

[303Guy]

A very unfortunate incident. Sad loss for all.

Many years go my uncle who was a gunsmith took a friend to the range to test a rifle he was working on. A 375 Holland and Holland. While he went up to the target the friend decided to fiddle with the gun. The bullet entered the back of his leg, missed the bone, pulped the muscle tissue and tore a large hole on the front side of his leg. There was a lot of luck involved in saving his life and his leg. Blood loss was the main issue. He actually regained full use of his leg and they had wanted to amputate but someone involved refused to allow that.


Shooter made ready and messed up the re-holster, dropping the gun on the concrete floor. (CZ Shadow I believe) Landed on the hammer and discharged.

The CZ has a floating firing pin so falling on the hammer won't fire it. Could the firing pin have been extended I wonder?

Something about hand guns that many folks don't realise is that a gun falling on the grip barrel more or less up, will cock and fire the gun. This is because the impact momentum causes the hammer and the trigger to jerk back.

This makes me aware of safety practices. Tomorrow I am to take a newby youngster to the range under my supervision.

[downzero]

Actually the sequence goes, asking the shooter “Are you ready?” If the shooter acknowledges yes, then the quote I originally posted is announced. I just condensed it. So, when I hear the last part of the quote & Im behind the line, I make sure I’m paying attention! Also, I disagree, the RO should alway announce “shooter is ready” after affirming the shooter is ready to go so the shooters & spectators behind the line know that live firing is about to commence.

No acknowledgment is required. You can disagree all you want; you're wrong. The range commands are always in English, everywhere in the world, and taught to every range officer. "Shooter is ready" is not a range command. Nothing should be uttered to a shooter in the box other than the "approved range commands" that are published in USPSA Rule Chapter 8.3.

"The lack of any negative response from the competitor indicates that he fully understands the requirements of the course of fire and is ready to proceed. If the competitor is not ready at the 'Are You Ready?' command, he must indicate to the Range Officer that he is not ready."

USPSA Rule 8.3.2.

The IPSC Rule is even more specific. The competitor, if not ready, must affirmatively indicate to the Range Officer by using the words "not ready" to indicate that the is not ready. As with the USPSA rules, silence in the approved start position indicates ready. I can't say exactly why the international rule is more specific, but it may simply be an embodiment that our range commands are always in English everywhere in the world, no matter who is competing. That way, a Russian can come to the United States, or the World Shoot can be held in Greece, and when someone steps to the line with a loaded gun in his holster, he knows exactly what to expect:

"'Are You Ready?' – The lack of any negative response from the competitor indicates that he fully understands the requirements of the course of fire and is ready to proceed. If the competitor is not ready at this command, he must state 'Not Ready'. When the competitor is ready he should assume the required start position to indicate his readiness to the Range Officer."

IPSC Handgun Rule 8.3.2.

The rules are specific and prescribe a sequence to avoid exactly the kind of ambiguity you create by uttering things other than range commands to shooters. People who don't speak English may not even know what "Shooter is ready" might even mean. What they do know is that after being asked "Are you ready?", the standby command follows, and the start signal tones 1-4 seconds later.

We train and do these things every single time in the same way because that is how we make competition safe and fair for everyone. I suggest two things if you wish to argue about this stuff in the future:

1. Review the rule book. Stop listening to what someone who has held the timer for decades but doesn't know what the rules are and learn them for yourselves. Someone's life may someday depend on your decision to do so.

and/or, your choice,

2. If you don't wish to review the rules and learn what you're talking about, don't hold the timer or clipboard or try to tell others how to officiate a match. Because those of us who trained and continue to study to maintain our status as "Range Officers" take this job quite seriously, because, especially those who have done it for a while, take this very, very seriously. Because we hope to never have the kind of circumstance happen that gave rise to this unfortunate death.

And if you're still not convinced, you can read the rules for yourself, in the precise locations as cited, here:

USPSA https://uspsa.org/viewer/2020-USPSA-Competition-Rules.pdf

IPSC https://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf

While you're there, read above and below the cited sections and learn the range commands. They begin with "Make ready" (USPSA, IPSC unloaded starts) or "Load and Make Ready" (IPSC loaded starts) and end with "Range is Clear." And there is seldom any circumstance where it is appropriate to hear anything other than the approved range commands between those two terms, with very limited exception.

[downzero]

I realize that many who train in safety use the phrase "Don't tell me it was an accident! There's no such thing as accidents!"

While it's a useful phrase to teach the importance of safety, it's not true, at least not by the dictionary definition of the word "accident".
accident: noun -an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.

So, unless the shooting was intentional, it was an accident. Accidents are most often caused by negligence, so the vast majority of accidental shootings are negligent accidental shooting, and simply calling something an accident is no excuse for negligence. Sorry, don't mean to go all grammar nazi; I understand (and agree with) the intent behind saying that there are no such thing as accidental shootings, but it's just not technically true.

Thank you for this. It's especially true in this situation where a really unfortunate set of events resulted in a round firing where no person apparently pulled the trigger.

[cas]

The CZ has a floating firing pin so falling on the hammer won't fire it.

A lot of things that can't happen, happen.

It is possible they had a reduced strength firing pin spring to work in conjunction with a reduced hammer spring. This is just speculation as in my experience with them you don't need one. Or an extended firing pin. But they do make them.

[john.k]

Where I shoot ,there was once zero tolerance......now teenagers get away with all kinds of rule bending ,explanation being.."A family typically spends $150 for a tryout day at the range....you yearly paid members might buy a drink or two if we re lucky".........I dont do paper targets anymore,just steel .

[popper]

Why would one re-holster a loaded gun for gun games training?

[303Guy]

At my local range today I mentioned this incident to the RO. He told me of an incident in which a young girl was given an uzi to shoot at a range. The RO at the range was supervising her, set her up ready to shoot and moved behind her. She fired and the gun rose up out of control back over head, hitting the RO in his head, killing him. Not sure how that could have been anticipated. Very tragic.

[fatelk]

A tragic reminder that any kind of sport can be dangerous, and the more energy involved in the sport, the more potential for injury. For example, cigarette boat racing has a higher likelihood for serious injury than golf.

Being involved in firearms and shooting for decades, I've heard many, many heartbreaking stories like this (as I'm sure most of us have). I remember one where a guy bought a high-dollar custom rifle and was tinkering with it in his garage. He had it in a vice with the barrel pointing towards a brick wall, so he thought it was safe to chamber a live round to see if his reloads would fit or something. For whatever reason it fired. The bullet hit the wall and shattered, with a piece of the bullet ricocheting sideways through another wall out into the yard where his young daughter was playing. You can guess the rest. :(

I file these stories away in my mind, and they remind me of the potential for danger in relaxing safety rules even once. Safety is first and foremost, and I teach it to my kids every time they handle a gun.

[Plate plinker]

At my local range today I mentioned this incident to the RO. He told me of an incident in which a young girl was given an uzi to shoot at a range. The RO at the range was supervising her, set her up ready to shoot and moved behind her. She fired and the gun rose up out of control back over head, hitting the RO in his head, killing him. Not sure how that could have been anticipated. Very tragic.

That one was pure stupidity. Used to be video of it easily accessible. In that case IIRCC he was just to her right and not really behind her. That is why when I work with a new shooter they only get one bullet at a time until they are in control.

[Plate plinker]

Shooter made ready and messed up the re-holster, dropping the gun on the concrete floor. (CZ Shadow I believe) Landed on the hammer and discharged.

Wonder what type of holster it was? Some of the ghost style I do not like, they are not practical. As in usPsa.

[cas]

Why would one re-holster a loaded gun for gun games training?


Because that's how you usually start, with your gun in your holster.

[gnappi]

I'm wondering if the competitor had his finger on the trigger and discharged it BEFORE he got it in the holster and dropped it when it went off? Hmmm... more questions.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm wondering if the competitor had his finger on the trigger and discharged it BEFORE he got it in the holster and dropped it when it went off? Hmmm... more questions.

I can't even find any proof the gun was dropped, that was only chatter in the comments. The truth probably wont be known until well after we all forgot this even happened.

[Frosty Boolit]

There is no way to guarantee it will not happen anywhere. We can train, teach, inform, and share experiences to further educate. Realize the number of gun owners is increasing and partially due to the Chinese flu, a lot of them were not able to get training. There is a chance for increased incidents but there is also a chance you will get hit by lightning. Depends on how you look at life.

This makes the case for rigorous interviews to gain membership to a shooting club. The one I'm in also had really high fees for the first year, that is what kept me out for a couple years but I saved enough eventually.