Trouble with target shooting. Hitting low and left.

[VariableRecall]

I know it's quite embarrassing to post not so great groups, but I've got to improve somehow.

On both occasions that I've went to the range, I've been shooting about 2 inches lower and to the left from the center of my bullseyes at around 15 yards, putting most of my hits on paper at about 7 O'clock from the bullseye. Keep in mind that if I attempt to deviate from my natural point of aim (which hits low and left) I can't reliably predict where these rounds will go.

Here's a photo with my approximate 6 round group. Not so great, but it's my first time trying out .45 Auto. The shot away from my group was where I deliberately put my aim away from the bullseye to try and hit closer to it. Obviously, that wasn't a smart move.
The target's brand is Thomson and the grid is graduated to 1 inch.

271066

This is me using GalvinGround's RIA 1911, shooting right handed with my left supporting the firearm, and using my right eye to line up the sights.

I have a suspicion that the solution to this problem may be that I'm left eye dominant and don't know it. I am shooting about 2 inches from where I'd expect them to go (about the width between someone's eyes) but that's just a theory. I see overall more clearly with my right eye than my left.

The range technician suggested that I may not be supporting the firearm enough with my left hand. Would shooting it one handed help?

Just throwing some ideas into the wind on how to fix this.

[Thumbcocker]

It often takes several different tests to find a load that shoots to the sights on a fixed sighted gun. The fact that you are getting recognizable groups shows that you are getting a handle on the basics.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[VariableRecall]

It often takes several different tests to find a load that shoots to the sights on a fixed sighted gun. The fact that you are getting recognizable groups shows that you are getting a handle on the basics.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

What's interesting is that on both occasions with my .38 Special Model 10 AND the RIA 1911, I have shot low and left. That's completely different to how my bro GalvinGround shot as well. He was quite surprised to see me hit like that, but, he seemed to be hitting a lot closer to target that I have, but with a less defined pattern.

Also the two of us were switching from PMC .45 Auto to our reloaded Semi-Wadcutters. This turned out to be a really easy way to tell which group was which.

[elmacgyver0]

I don't get out to shoot much anymore. Just don't have the ambition to go by myself anymore.
I like my guns and have some that have never been out of the house.
I want to get out more but with cold weather coming on it won't happen.
I got an email about something called Strikeman, well I bit.
Cost me $99.00
What I got, a 9mm laser bullet that gets activated by the firing pin, a plastic target in a plastic stand and a plastic tripod with a holder for your cellphone.
You download a free app for for your phone and the phone using the camera looks at the target to score where the shots hit.
If you think $99.00 is too steep you can find laser bullet on Ebay for $30 to $50 apiece in several calibers that work fine.
Also you do not need to buy the target package, targets are downloadable that you can print that work fine.
I find this as a fine tool for practicing.
I bought 6 laser cartridges off ebay for 45 Colt, they are a hoot!
Great for practicing point shooting as you can immediately see where you are hitting and make adjustments, all without leaving your home.
When I do finally make it to the range I'm sure this will help my score.

[toallmy]

My wife used a eye patch to see what was happening with her handgun shooting a while back , it didn't fix or change anything , but it took out possible variables + helped her with confidence .

[NoZombies]

Could well be shot anticipation and 'pushing' the gun subconsciously. Since the gun recoils up and right for a right handed shooter, subconsciously pushing the gun down and left in the split second before firing is a fairly common occurrence.

[toallmy]

I don't get out to shoot much anymore. Just don't have the ambition to go by myself anymore.
I like my guns and have some that have never been out of the house.
I want to get out more but with cold weather coming on it won't happen.
I got an email about something called Strikeman, well I bit.
Cost me $99.00
What I got, a 9mm laser bullet that gets activated by the firing pin, a plastic target in a plastic stand and a plastic tripod with a holder for your cellphone.
You download a free app for for your phone and the phone using the camera looks at the target to score where the shots hit.
If you think $99.00 is too steep you can find laser bullet on Ebay for $30 to $50 apiece in several calibers that work fine.
Also you do not need to buy the target package, targets are downloadable that you can print that work fine.
I find this as a fine tool for practicing.
I bought 6 laser cartridges off ebay for 45 Colt, they are a hoot!
Great for practicing point shooting as you can immediately see where you are hitting and make adjustments, all without leaving your home.
When I do finally make it to the range I'm sure this will help my score.

Thank you for your post - I hope you have a nice relaxing winter . I found your post very interesting , with the ammo shortage going on the practice at home with a laser could really be beneficial .

[VariableRecall]

Could well be shot anticipation and 'pushing' the gun subconsciously. Since the gun recoils up and right for a right handed shooter, subconsciously pushing the gun down and left in the split second before firing is a fairly common occurrence.

I had done my best to not try and resist the recoil to harshly, and just rode through it. I kept a firm, but not to the point of shaking grip. The deviation of down and to the left has been almost identical to the results using my Model 10.

[VariableRecall]

I don't get out to shoot much anymore. Just don't have the ambition to go by myself anymore.
I like my guns and have some that have never been out of the house.
I want to get out more but with cold weather coming on it won't happen.
I got an email about something called Strikeman, well I bit.
Cost me $99.00
What I got, a 9mm laser bullet that gets activated by the firing pin, a plastic target in a plastic stand and a plastic tripod with a holder for your cellphone.
You download a free app for for your phone and the phone using the camera looks at the target to score where the shots hit.
If you think $99.00 is too steep you can find laser bullet on Ebay for $30 to $50 apiece in several calibers that work fine.
Also you do not need to buy the target package, targets are downloadable that you can print that work fine.
I find this as a fine tool for practicing.
I bought 6 laser cartridges off ebay for 45 Colt, they are a hoot!
Great for practicing point shooting as you can immediately see where you are hitting and make adjustments, all without leaving your home.
When I do finally make it to the range I'm sure this will help my score.

I had heard about that product. Didn't know that the system could work without the need for their official laser pointer. I'll see what I can find for that!

[NoZombies]

I had done my best to not try and resist the recoil to harshly, and just rode through it. I kept a firm, but not to the point of shaking grip. The deviation of down and to the left has been almost identical to the results using my Model 10.

I would try dry-fire practice, maybe even record a video of the first time you try it, to see if you're pushing the gun in anticipation. If you're getting the same results with several guns, I would say that it's a good possibility that the issue lies in technique. It sounds like you're trying to correct it, and I suspect you'll be able to fix it with a little practice.

[VariableRecall]

I would try dry-fire practice, maybe even record a video of the first time you try it, to see if you're pushing the gun in anticipation. If you're getting the same results with several guns, I would say that it's a good possibility that the issue lies in technique. It sounds like you're trying to correct it, and I suspect you'll be able to fix it with a little practice.

If I were to post a video on this website, how would be the best way to post it? I've used Streamable before but now they have a 30 days before deletion policy on all Non-Premium accounts.

[chutesnreloads]

Your buddy hitting closer to point of aim means absolutely nothing if you are shooting different ammo and/or different guns.
Changing ammo will often change the point of impact.
This is where being a reloader becomes your friend ... especially with a gun with fixed sights

[NoZombies]

If I were to post a video on this website, how would be the best way to post it? I've used Streamable before but now they have a 30 days before deletion policy on all Non-Premium accounts.

I wouldn't necessarily post the video, but rather try to study it yourself. If watching the video doesn't reveal anything, then maybe post it for more opinions. I'm afraid I don't know what the best video hosting site might be, but I'm sure someone here will.

[VariableRecall]

I wouldn't necessarily post the video, but rather try to study it yourself. If watching the video doesn't reveal anything, then maybe post it for more opinions. I'm afraid I don't know what the best video hosting site might be, but I'm sure someone here will.

Here's GalvinGround's first group he made with the RIA 1911.
271076
Seems a little more common amount of dispersion, especially for a first timer like me.

[Bazoo]

Pulling left and down with a two handed grip will be the off hand pulling you off.

[VariableRecall]

Pulling left and down with a two handed grip will be the off hand pulling you off.

So, try and split support of the firearm evenly between both hands? When I was gripping it, I gave almost all of my support to my right, and my left hand was more dedicated to distributing the weight a little bit.

[Huskerguy]

Start eliminating one thing at a time. I do this with new load work ups and I try to take as much guess work out as possible. Consider the following.

Do you know how to determine your dominate eye? Hold a pencil or finger up, with both eyes open out the top on a fixed point. Don't move and close one eye at a time. One eye will out the point right on, the other off to the side. I am right hand dominant and shoot left eyed, it is not a problem for me. My focus is better with my right eye anyway.

Use a rest. This will eliminate a lot of issues. Sit on a chair, hold very tight and it should tell you a great deal.

Your grip can make a big difference. I ascribe to the 70-30 rule. The left hand has 70% of the pressure and the right 30.

If you can get a bit more consistent group then you can start adjusting sights. Too many people do that right away and it may not always be correct. Try to get out one more time before it gets too cold or go to an indoor range.

[VariableRecall]

If you can get a bit more consistent group then you can start adjusting sights. Too many people do that right away and it may not always be correct. Try to get out one more time before it gets too cold or go to an indoor range.

Both of our pistol's sights are fixed, so there's not much that can change them other than violent force.
Also, We only have access to an indoor range. It's prices are fair and the people there are very friendly. There's no chairs in the range but perhaps a crouching stance would be acceptable since there is a small bench to put down your gun case and ammo in front of the bay.

[reddog81]

Could well be shot anticipation and 'pushing' the gun subconsciously. Since the gun recoils up and right for a right handed shooter, subconsciously pushing the gun down and left in the split second before firing is a fairly common occurrence.

This is a possibility and hard to tell. Load up a couple dummy rounds with no powder or primer to test and see if there's a flinch or "push" Load up a magazine without looking or have someone else load it for you so you have no idea when they are located. Have someone watch you fire and pay attention to your follow through and nothing else once when the shots are breaking.

Dry firing can be helpful but you know every round will have no recoil. You behave differently when anticipating recoil versus just pulling the trigger.

[DougGuy]

VariableRecall, you need to practice the dry fire drill. What's happening, is your trigger finger is jerking the sights low and left when the sear breaks out from under the hammer. Pick a spot or post a target and stand in the two handed stance, dry fire the unloaded gun, take a mental picture of the sights the instant the hammer falls. If the sights jump any at all, there is the reason for your POI being low and left. Do this with both guns. When you can hold the sights motionless in dry fire, your groups will be cut in half and you will shoot to POA.

[Winger Ed.]

+1 on working on one thing at a time.

I'd try the eye patch and then a solid rest.

[VariableRecall]

This is a possibility and hard to tell. Load up a couple dummy rounds with no powder or primer to test and see if there's a flinch or "push" Load up a magazine without looking or have someone else load it for you so you have no idea when they are located. Have someone watch you fire and pay attention to your follow through and nothing else once when the shots are breaking.

Dry firing can be helpful but you know every round will have no recoil. You behave differently when anticipating recoil versus just pulling the trigger.

Thankfully we have snap caps in both calibers for practice. They have been a real help in inducing malfunctions for practicing double feeds.

[jimlj]

VariableRecall, you need to practice the dry fire drill. What's happening, is your trigger finger is jerking the sights low and left when the sear breaks out from under the hammer. Pick a spot or post a target and stand in the two handed stance, dry fire the unloaded gun, take a mental picture of the sights the instant the hammer falls. If the sights jump any at all, there is the reason for your POI being low and left. Do this with both guns. When you can hold the sights motionless in dry fire, your groups will be cut in half and you will shoot to POA.
^^^This.
I dry fire (DOUBLE check that your gun is unloaded, all ammo away from where you are practicing) hundreds of times. I like to do it while watching TV. Watch where your sights move to when you pull the trigger. If I place the pad of my right trigger finger on the trigger it pulls low and left every time. Try placing the first joint or a bit further on the trigger and watch your sights when you pull. I've found for me if I place the finger just past the first joint my sights don't move. The same thing happens when live firing at a target.

Double check your gun every time you start this exercise.

[VariableRecall]

^^^This.
I dry fire (DOUBLE check that your gun is unloaded, all ammo away from where you are practicing) hundreds of times. I like to do it while watching TV. Watch where your sights move to when you pull the trigger. If I place the pad of my right trigger finger on the trigger it pulls low and left every time. Try placing the first joint or a bit further on the trigger and watch your sights when you pull. I've found for me if I place the finger just past the first joint my sights don't move. The same thing happens when live firing at a target.

Double check your gun every time you start this exercise.

my finger usually rests on the first joint, kind of in the crease. so, that's similar to me.

[Petander]

On both occasions that I've went to the range...



Both? Are you a new shooter? Concentrate on your grip, especially left hand. Can you see the muzzle flash?

More range time will help. Hitting low left is almost always anticipating the recoil, a 45 is not the mildest for a beginner. Can you alternate and shoot a 22LR,too? Where does it hit?

My guess is, the impact point will mysteriously change after some more rounds / range time.


Good luck!

[dverna]

If you are a new pistol shooter, I echo the advice for TONS of dry fire practice, but add one other suggestion. Get a .22 pistol like a Ruger Mk IV and shoot 3-4000 rounds. A target .22 will shoot 1” groups at 15 yards and you will learn trigger control and sight alignment.

[Minerat]

I don't know if this will help but I found this target that explains what happens if your are shooting around the target and a possible cause. I'm not sure where is came from, or even to whom to give the credit for it so for what it's worth.

271095

[VariableRecall]

Both? Are you a new shooter? Concentrate on your grip, especially left hand. Can you see the muzzle flash?

More range time will help. Hitting low left is almost always anticipating the recoil, a 45 is not the mildest for a beginner. Can you alternate and shoot a 22LR,too? Where does it hit?

My guess is, the impact point will mysteriously change after some more rounds / range time.


Good luck!

I'm not completely new to shooting sports. Although, this is the first time that I've owned a firearm of my own. I've used my friend's firearms on an occasional basis but not very often. I had started out bench shooting with .22's in the Boy Scouts and earned my Rifle and Shotgun Shooting Merit Badges that way.

In my opinion, .45 ACP is certainly something to get used to. Recoil wasn't unpleasant but it sure was a LOT more stiff than my .38 Special revolver. I'm starting to see that a subcompact .45 ACP pistol would be an immensely uncomfortable proposition. The stiffest caliber that I've tried out besides .45 ACP was .357 magnum, which was quite stiff as well, but with the somewhat lighter weight it made the recoil less comfortable.

For a first time using .45 ACP, at least I could put everything within a 8x8 inch square of where I wanted at 15 yards. It's a start! I don't expect myself to become instantaneously proficient in handguns by getting to the range a couple of times. This was quite literally our first 30 rounds or so out of the pistol.

If anything, it makes me very excited to go and reload more ammunition to fine-tune our load. I'd say I'm very satisfied with my brother's purchase, and he is as well.

I had also received a tip that the 1911's sights should be shrouding the bullseye at close range, so that should help at least with elevation, I believe.

[VariableRecall]

+1 on working on one thing at a time.

I'd try the eye patch and then a solid rest.

I'd tried out that eye test, and the results were kinda mixed. I have astigmatism, so both my eyes are kind of messed up in their own ways. I've determined that I'm Right Eye Dominant but I've noticed that I can drift my point of aim into the left eye sometimes. It makes me very glad to have eye protection that fits OVER my glasses since the RIA 1911 in the indoor range bounces brass all over the place.

I'm excited to pave the way to improvement!

[VariableRecall]

Both? Are you a new shooter? Concentrate on your grip, especially left hand. Can you see the muzzle flash?

More range time will help. Hitting low left is almost always anticipating the recoil, a 45 is not the mildest for a beginner. Can you alternate and shoot a 22LR,too? Where does it hit?

My guess is, the impact point will mysteriously change after some more rounds / range time.


Good luck!

These two pistols, the .38 and the .45, are the only firearms that our family owns. Other then these two recent acquisitions, this marks the first time that firearms would be in our family. We don't have a .22LR pistol, but perhaps that would be a good way to get my mom and old man into firearms.

[trebor44]

Look at the 'trouble shooting" technique target, use a solid bench rest, start at 7 yards and work out to 25. Dry fire practice, look at the intersection of two walls and the ceiling. Focus on the front sight and blink. Eye dominance is a factor but it can be mitigated with practice. My vote is grip and anticipation!
Have to create that muscle memory!

[redhawk0]

First...I'm technically left handed. I shoot rifle/shotgun left handed....however, pistol/revolver I shoot right handed. I play sports right handed...except to throw a frisbee...then I'm left handed....yes...I'm a mess.

I was having trouble with my S&W 380 BG from day one. I was shooting left and low similar to you. Because I was shooting Right handed it dawned on me that maybe my Left Eye Dominance was messing things up shooting right handed. So I switched to closing my right eye and sighting with my LEFT. Still shooting right handed. Things improved. My POI is closer now to POA than it was before, but I haven't had enough practice to say I'm proficient with the semi-auto. I also shoot revolver....funny thing is, right eye works fine for POA/POI.

I'd say go for it....switch eyes and see if things improve.

redhawk

[popper]

trigger pull. Put a cheap laser pointer on it, some firm foam behind the trigger. aim at target and watch the 'spot' move as you pull the trigger. Unloaded of course. vertical stringing is most likely you anticipating the shot/recoil. Or taking a long time to aim/ muscles get tired and jittery.

[Tripplebeards]

What does your trigger pull brake at? I have worked all my pistol triggers down to around 2 1/4 pounds and it’s helped my groups and POA quite a bit besides also using the “excuse” circle listed above. I also put my front sight post about 1/2 way up instead of level with my rear sight and I’m dead on at 25 yards doing so. I don’t want to file my front post because I will end up using many loads in my pistol which all change POA with higher and lower charges. I was shooting left with NV till I adjusted my trigger finger position.

[alfadan]

Maybe try a little more finger through the trigger. My dad taught me on a
45 to pull the trigger kinda hard on an empty chamber to see which way the gun moves. If to the left, use a little less finger-through and vice versa.

[rbuck351]

This is typical trigger control issues. Low left for a right handed shooter is the result of jerking the trigger. Low right for a left handed shooter. As was mentioned, get or make some dummy rounds and have a friend load a magazine with mixed rounds. Load a couple of dummy rounds with live rounds in a mag and watch what happens when you pull the trigger on a dummy. You will have your answer.

[VariableRecall]

What does your trigger pull brake at? I have worked all my pistol triggers down to around 2 1/4 pounds and it’s helped my groups and POA quite a bit besides also using the “excuse” circle listed above. I also put my front sight post about 1/2 way up instead of level with my rear sight and I’m dead on at 25 yards doing so. I don’t want to file my front post because I will end up using many loads in my pistol which all change POA with higher and lower charges. I was shooting left with NV till I adjusted my trigger finger position.

When the RIA 1911 is loaded with snap caps, it passes the basic safety check of supporting its own weight on the trigger when the hammer is cocked and the safety is off. So, the weight of the trigger pull is more than the weight of the pistol when loaded.

I'm very satisfied with Galvin's single action trigger. Not as wonderfully crisp as the single action on my Model 10, but considering how different they are in terms of action, it's quite understandable.

Not to mention, I'd rather not damage my sights in any way and keep them both stock.

[Conditor22]

Shots are to the all left and mostly low
Cause: Jerk/snap the trigger, on large bore guns - flinching


Gunblue490 Is a marksman/instructor and puts out many great instructional videos.

How to REALLY Shoot the Handgun For Accuracy by Gunblue490

Part 1 ~ How to REALLY Shoot the Handgun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M3x_bdhZU4&ab_channel=GunBlue490

Part 2 ~ What is Precision Pistol Shooting, and how to do it yourself!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKtJgKNC5JY&ab_channel=GunBlue490

Part 3 ~ Understanding Sight Mechanics and Correct Sight Picture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui3jQL2D0Cw&ab_channel=GunBlue490

Part 4 ~ Area Aiming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNymQcADch4&ab_channel=GunBlue490

Part 5 ~ Trigger Control
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1yxrEek-Dw&ab_channel=GunBlue490

Part 6 ~ Natural Point of Aim
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkxXmX6nf78&ab_channel=GunBlue490

Part 7 ~ Breath Control is NOT what you've probably been taught!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjBxM4bKmv8&ab_channel=GunBlue490

Part 8 ~ Follow Through!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N1EYQuiqUU&ab_channel=GunBlue490

Part 9 ~ Target Analysis is KEY to becoming a good shot!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsFgTSKoJqw&ab_channel=GunBlue490

[Bazoo]

I like about a 5 pound trigger on a defensive gun. My Springfield milspec is set at a crisp 5 pounds. You should use the center of the pad of your finger, not the joint area.

Dry firing is good practice, but it also can create a disconnect between live and dry fire. I've seen people flinch during live fire but be able to dry fire perfectly. I like to incorporate a dry fire in with live firing on the range. Start by dry firing a few times, load a few, fire them, then switch back to dry fire a few minutes. Any time you notice flinching or trigger slapping or whatever during live fire, unload and dry fire a few minutes.

Have Galvin load the gun with a snap cap mixed in where you don't know, then you fire it. That will show a flinch instantly. Then do the same for him. You can also make a dummy round without powder or primer for this purpose in case, for example, you can see the snap cap as the cylinder turns on your beloved model 10.

One thing I teach people, is to become comfortable with their gun. Not complacent mind you. But I've seen many people that only handle their gun when at the range. If you carry your gun at home, or even in town if able, you'll become comfortable with it in a quick way. It needs to change from a loud scary thing you only use at the range, to a comforting constant companion. Clean it, hold it, admire it.

You and Galvin need to do something me and the wife do... No, put your pants back on! I'm talking about calling out bad habits so you both get safer. We call each other and ourselves if we muzzle one another, or if we leave a safety off or whatever it is. It will help y'all to get and stay safe if you have this agreement.

[FISH4BUGS]

Could well be shot anticipation and 'pushing' the gun subconsciously. Since the gun recoils up and right for a right handed shooter, subconsciously pushing the gun down and left in the split second before firing is a fairly common occurrence.

I would agree. Can you "bench rest" the guns to see if they are still doing the same thing?

[VariableRecall]

I would agree. Can you "bench rest" the guns to see if they are still doing the same thing?

There are no folding chairs in our indoor range to do that sort of work. I suppose I could find out next time if crouching and resting my elbows on the shelf in our lane would be comfortable. This range is rather long and narrow. I saw benchrest equipment in their inventory but I'm not sure if that would cost extra.

[blackthorn]

Check with the range to see if they will allow you to bring your own folding chair. If so, you should be able to find one cheap at your local thrift store.

[VariableRecall]

Check with the range to see if they will allow you to bring your own folding chair. If so, you should be able to find one cheap at your local thrift store.

I could just ask if they have chairs handy. Pretty simple.

[chutesnreloads]

Consider getting an airgun.You can shoot it in the backyard or even in the house.An average phone book will stop a lot of pellets before you shoot through it.
There are some really nice handguns that use air power

[VariableRecall]

Consider getting an airgun.You can shoot it in the backyard or even in the house.An average phone book will stop a lot of pellets before you shoot through it.
There are some really nice handguns that use air power

I think dry firing with the firearms I have on hand would work best. Maybe if I got a laser cartridge I could better understand where my point of aim is going.

Either way, I need more practice.

[Bazoo]

An airgun, or even an airsoft is a very useful training aid.

[DougGuy]

When you shoot, simply pull the trigger diagonally to the right some with your finger. You will see that immediately change your POI.

What is happening is this. You obviously have some fairly stiff triggers, and when the shot breaks, your finger jerks to the left as the trigger continues to travel rearward, they call this overtravel. Some guns are fitted with an overtravel screw to minimize this. You will often see the 1911 45 ACP pistol with a screw in the trigger shoe, that's what it does. As soon as the shot breaks the screw stops the trigger's rearward movement so it doesn't allow you to jerk it to the left.

For a Ruger single action revolver, you can swap in a Wolff 30oz. trigger return spring which will lighten the trigger pull appreciably. It will also make it MUCH EASIER to hold the sights motionless in dry fire. If you cannot dry fire the gun and keep the sights from jumping, it will always fight you until you master this one small task. Once mastered, groups will shrink accordingly.

[leeggen]

Variable recall, they make a target that has answers to most shooting problems listed on it. It is made 2 ways one for lefties and one for righties. It might hel you alot. I know several people I have put on the target found answers for themselves. Ihave a bad time to send things thru space. So I will send you an email on here of the target, Bet it will help you some.

[David2011]

After reading all of the comments several stand out. The troubleshooting chart is the first thing I thought of reading your initial post. Note that the six, seven and eight o’clock segments point to things that other responses said; jerking the trigger, pushing and squeezing too hard. Shooting on a sandbag or a bag of rice will reveal a great deal. If you hit near your point of aim using the bag that says that the problem is pushing/squeezing/jerking. Rifle shooting does not fully translate to handgun shooting mechanics.

The revolver is a great training tool. Have someone else load it for you with randomly placed empty cartridges, so you won’t know when a fired case is coming around. The empties will immediately reveal jerking, pushing or flinching. They will also help overcome those traits. Practice with the .38 and random empties until you no longer pull the sights off target.

Dry fire both guns until your follow-through keeps the sights on the bullseye. To see how important dry fire is, many top level competitors say they dry fire 10:1 over live fire.

[daengmei]

Some of this may help as well, a lot of illustrations and information.
Search "pistol marksmanship trigger control".

[leeggen]

Mr. VR. I have a target that might help you out.

LEE target WWW.Leeprecision.com Lee Precision, Inc
4275 Hwy. U
Hartford Wisconsin
53027
In each of 9 outer pies it tells you what went wrong. It has helped several new shooters and a couple old timers when shooting.It helped me when I changed from revolver to semi auto.
Good luck,
CD

[Echo]

Looks to me like a common jerk - rather than Squeezing the trigger, if one jerks the trigger, it will invariably pull the shot low and left. And, as someone said, dry-firing can make that show it's face!

[BamaNapper]

I too find the laser bullets useful. My wife and I have the iTarget and can shoot some friendly competition in the family room. There's a big difference at the range if we laser a couple hundred rounds the evening before. It's even more useful for practice now that I'm trying to stretch my primer supply. 5000 rounds through the laser is a $5 pack of batteries which are not in short supply.

I also agree with trying a group from a rest of some sort. Or maybe try shooting left handed? If you shoot a rifle lefty, maybe that's where the pistol belongs as well. I sometimes shoot better lefty, and I think it's because I don't have as much muscle memory and have to pay closer attention to what I'm doing.

[tommag]

I'll chime in with another vote for some loaded rounds with some empties interspersed. It's especially good with the revolver to show what you're doing. In the academy I went through it was called skip-loading. I can see what you're doing from the target, but seeing it for yourself by skip loading is a real eye opener.

[725]

Not seeing you in action is difficult to pinpoint issues. Some constants that may or may not apply to you are the observation of a vertical group ~ may indicate breathing. Constantly left ~ may indicate the finger not inserted deeply enough into the trigger guard/trigger. Could be that at the discharge, you are pushing the trigger to the left, (Conversely, those who put too much finger over the trigger tend to pull right. Other way around for lefties :) ). Shooting cross eye dominate opens up another bag of worms. I'm right eye dominate / right handed. However, while still a young gunslinger, I cut the end of my trigger finger off and had to carry my duty revolver left handed for about 6 months. Easy switch for me at the time, but I do remember dealing with the cross eye stuff. Once I trained my brain, it all worked out. Just remain flexible, open to new stuff, and don't get discouraged. As noted above, I had my finger wrestling contest with my radial arm saw on a Sunday morning and re-qual'd Monday morning with the M-16, 870, and Model 10. Train - practice - learn and keep moving.

[VariableRecall]

Not seeing you in action is difficult to pinpoint issues. Some constants that may or may not apply to you are the observation of a vertical group ~ may indicate breathing. Constantly left ~ may indicate the finger not inserted deeply enough into the trigger guard/trigger. Could be that at the discharge, you are pushing the trigger to the left, (Conversely, those who put too much finger over the trigger tend to pull right. Other way around for lefties :) ). Shooting cross eye dominate opens up another bag of worms. I'm right eye dominate / right handed. However, while still a young gunslinger, I cut the end of my trigger finger off and had to carry my duty revolver left handed for about 6 months. Easy switch for me at the time, but I do remember dealing with the cross eye stuff. Once I trained my brain, it all worked out. Just remain flexible, open to new stuff, and don't get discouraged. As noted above, I had my finger wrestling contest with my radial arm saw on a Sunday morning and re-qual'd Monday morning with the M-16, 870, and Model 10. Train - practice - learn and keep moving.

Thank you! I'll do some more dry fire practice when I get the chance.

[10-x]

Wow, from reading most posts seems you need BASIC marksmanship instruction. NRA, like them or not has basic pistol marksmanship, easy to get. Having been on AMTU team the basics are proper grip, sight alignment, breathing control and trigger control. Grip is the basic foundation, one should train to develop the proper grip without thinking. BTW, your pinky finger is an enemy, do not use it. 2 middle fingers should hold pistol or revolver securely against web of thumb and hand. Practice makes perfect. Sight alignment depends on one vision, buy cheap glasses at wherever you find them so you can focus on sights. Go in store hold your arm out at distance pistol or revolver would be and check which glasses allow you to Clearly see. + 125, 150 or whatever you need. Breathing control is needed mostly for target shooting but if one practices enough all come naturally. Trigger control needs much practice, use ONLY the fat part of first joint of trigger finger. Repeated practice of squeezing to the rear will get you good results. Just remember, practice makes perfect. By chance you can find a experience shooter to help you will make a huge difference. Good luck.

[VariableRecall]

Wow, from reading most posts seems you need BASIC marksmanship instruction. NRA, like them or not has basic pistol marksmanship, easy to get. Having been on AMTU team the basics are proper grip, sight alignment, breathing control and trigger control. Grip is the basic foundation, one should train to develop the proper grip without thinking. BTW, your pinky finger is an enemy, do not use it. 2 middle fingers should hold pistol or revolver securely against web of thumb and hand. Practice makes perfect. Sight alignment depends on one vision, buy cheap glasses at wherever you find them so you can focus on sights. Go in store hold your arm out at distance pistol or revolver would be and check which glasses allow you to Clearly see. + 125, 150 or whatever you need. Breathing control is needed mostly for target shooting but if one practices enough all come naturally. Trigger control needs much practice, use ONLY the fat part of first joint of trigger finger. Repeated practice of squeezing to the rear will get you good results. Just remember, practice makes perfect. By chance you can find a experience shooter to help you will make a huge difference. Good luck.

I have a good pair of prescription lenses, and a pair of shooting glasses that I can wear over my own, so I can see just fine overall. If I were to take my prescription glasses off, I wouldn't be able to see more than 2 feet from me. That's no way to handle a firearm safely.

Mainly I just need more practice.

[farmbif]

+1 on what 10x says. plus
not only will you probably enjoy a couple classes with a good instructor you will learn stuff you probably had not previously been exposed to.

[Land Owner]

[SARCASM=ON]

Try this (which does not "fix" a thing):

1.) move the aim point up and to the right.

Viola'. Hits on bullseye.

For defensive center of mass shots, compensate. Aim for the Perp's left shoulder (on your right hand as the Perp advances toward you).

[SARCASM=OFF]



In a serious vein, I viewed, and got excited about shooting a single shot at 3 yards, slowly squeezing the trigger and being surprised when the gun goes off (every time), then DELIBERATELY trying to put every subsequent shot of 5 into that SAME HOLE. Move back to 5 yds. and repeat. Move back to 7 yds. and repeat. Move back to 10 yds. repeat. Back to 15 yds. repeat. Back to 20 yds. repeat. Finally, back to 25 yds. repeat.

When all 35 rounds are WITHIN the "9-ring", you are learning hand, wrist, and trigger control through muscle memory.

Also, do not be afraid to TAKE YOU HANDGUN COMPLETELY APART (Youtube is helpful), to smooth and polish the parts of the action, and to reduce, but not eliminate, required pressure on the trigger that releases the sear and hammer. If you practice with a SOLID WEIGHT trigger (factory, some more than 12 pounds), that requires you to VICE GRIP IT to make the gun discharge, you will be giving yourself significantly greater confidence AFTER you smooth the action and REDUCE the trigger weight (say to 6 pounds).

There is a WORLD of difference from 12 to 6 pounds and a UNIVERSE of difference from 12 to 4 pounds. It is, imo, difficult to over polish when using non-cutting compounds on the sear, slide, hammer, etc. You may have to put the hand gun together a time or two getting the polish "just right", but when you get it right, that trigger becomes butter in the hand...and you DIY.

[VariableRecall]

[SARCASM=ON]

Try this (which does not "fix" a thing):

1.) move the aim point up and to the right.

Viola'. Hits on bullseye.

For defensive center of mass shots, compensate. Aim for the Perp's left shoulder (on your right hand as the Perp advances toward you).

[SARCASM=OFF]



In a serious vein, I viewed, and got excited about shooting a single shot at 3 yards, slowly squeezing the trigger and being surprised when the gun goes off (every time), then DELIBERATELY trying to put every subsequent shot of 5 into that SAME HOLE. Move back to 5 yds. and repeat. Move back to 7 yds. and repeat. Move back to 10 yds. repeat. Back to 15 yds. repeat. Back to 20 yds. repeat. Finally, back to 25 yds. repeat.

When all 35 rounds are WITHIN the "9-ring", you are learning hand, wrist, and trigger control through muscle memory.

Also, do not be afraid to TAKE YOU HANDGUN COMPLETELY APART (Youtube is helpful), to smooth and polish the parts of the action, and to reduce, but not eliminate, required pressure on the trigger that releases the sear and hammer. If you practice with a SOLID WEIGHT trigger (factory, some more than 12 pounds), that requires you to VICE GRIP IT to make the gun discharge, you will be giving yourself significantly greater confidence AFTER you smooth the action and REDUCE the trigger weight (say to 6 pounds).

There is a WORLD of difference from 12 to 6 pounds and a UNIVERSE of difference from 12 to 4 pounds. It is, imo, difficult to over polish when using non-cutting compounds on the sear, slide, hammer, etc. You may have to put the hand gun together a time or two getting the polish "just right", but when you get it right, that trigger becomes butter in the hand...and you DIY.

I really do not want to fiddle with such essential components as the sear. I don't have the components and I'd rather not permanently damage something so important. My Model 10's double action is fairly forceful, but clean. I believe a lot of is has to do with the factory stock not being optimized for medium-large hands.

271378

Just using my left hand as an example, if I grip my Model 10 with maximum purchase I have to contort my trigger downward in order to get a comfortable trigger pull.

The Houge Monogrip I have definitely stifles the aesthetics of the revolver, but does improve the trigger comfort significantly.

I'm thinking about getting a T-Grip, but I've called their shop a couple of times this week with no response.
I'd rather not send them anything until I know they are still taking orders.

[10-x]

Look around for some larger K frame grips such as Mdl. 19’s have, may help. Also try other grips on similar K frame Smiths if you know other shooters.

[VariableRecall]

Look around for some larger K frame grips such as Mdl. 19’s have, may help. Also try other grips on similar K frame Smiths if you know other shooters.

I'm honestly thankful that there are so many options in terms of grips/stocks for S&W K frames.

[downzero]

So, try and split support of the firearm evenly between both hands? When I was gripping it, I gave almost all of my support to my right, and my left hand was more dedicated to distributing the weight a little bit.

I despise telling people this because explaining a grip in terms of percentages or favoring one hand or the other really doesn't describe the process and most people who do that are telling you to do it wrong.

BUT

The support hand provides MOST of the grip. Whether it's 60%, 80%, or 99%, or some number in between, I can't really say. But your left hand, if you're right handed, should be doing a great deal of holding the gun to prevent the sights from moving when the trigger breaks.

Others have told you that you need to dry fire; I echo those comments. You need to see the sights ALL the way through the trigger press. You might be blinking or just mashing the trigger thinking you know where the sights are when the trigger breaks. But the good news is that dry firing is free and if you do it correctly, and continue good habits, one day everything will click and you will know where every bullet you fire goes before looking at the target.

[10-x]

HUMMMM????......The support hand is just that, support. Dominate hand grips pistol/ revolver as trigger finger it attached. Read any of the Masters works such as the late Col. Coopers. Support hand should form a “ cup” to rest firing hand in as seen in countless photos. Accurate marksmanship is a repetition of correct procedures which come naturally after much practice. Careful development of each action in shooting regardless if using 1 hand or 2 will create the ability to shoot accurately. You may consider looking for a range that has marksmanship instructor, take a class or 2-3.

[popper]

https://www.amazon.com/EZshoot-Tactical-Standard-Picatinny-Handgun/dp/B07TC3HS4S/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&hvadid=77859286630319&hvbmt=bb&hvdev=c&hvqmt=p&keywords=laser+for+pistol&qid=1605389405&sr=8-7&tag=mh0b-20
Put on gun, practice dry fire! Watch the dot. Not a sight replacement, just for hold and trigger control. Don't bother to aim, just squeeze the trigger & watch the dot. Even more fun, hold at shoulder height, NO aim. Sights are for target practice and hunting, NOT SD.

[VariableRecall]

https://www.amazon.com/EZshoot-Tactical-Standard-Picatinny-Handgun/dp/B07TC3HS4S/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&hvadid=77859286630319&hvbmt=bb&hvdev=c&hvqmt=p&keywords=laser+for+pistol&qid=1605389405&sr=8-7&tag=mh0b-20
Put on gun, practice dry fire! Watch the dot. Not a sight replacement, just for hold and trigger control. Don't bother to aim, just squeeze the trigger & watch the dot. Even more fun, hold at shoulder height, NO aim. Sights are for target practice and hunting, NOT SD.

Neither of our firearms have a place to mount a laser sight. Rather not mutilate my peice to make one either. I think one of those laser cartridges would be better.

[Conditor22]

VariableRecall
Watch the videos I liked to, with a little practice it will go away

[VariableRecall]

VariableRecall
Watch the videos I liked to, with a little practice it will go away

Thank you for the links! I managed to find his channel earlier and I love his content!
He's a very calm and serene creator, and has the sort of wisdom I really appreciate!

[Win94ae]

Could well be shot anticipation and 'pushing' the gun subconsciously. Since the gun recoils up and right for a right handed shooter, subconsciously pushing the gun down and left in the split second before firing is a fairly common occurrence.

That is where my money is.

[alfadan]

I have nice finger groove wood grips on my k frames. They really help with keeping a well defined and, importantly, consistent grip. Plus they look great!

[elmacgyver0]

Mr. VR. I have a target that might help you out.

LEE target WWW.Leeprecision.com Lee Precision, Inc
4275 Hwy. U
Hartford Wisconsin
53027
In each of 9 outer pies it tells you what went wrong. It has helped several new shooters and a couple old timers when shooting.It helped me when I changed from revolver to semi auto.
Good luck,
CD

If there is such a thing I could not find it on Lee's website that you posted.
Could you tell us how to find the "Lee Target"?
The search didn't work either.

[Dusty Bannister]

https://gallery.leeprecision.net/index.php?/category/Targets

Here ya go.

[VariableRecall]

https://gallery.leeprecision.net/index.php?/category/Targets

Here ya go.

Thank you! I'll save it to my desktop.