weight inconsistancy with 30 cal FMJ pulls from the 60s.

[redhawk0]

Hi guys...about 25 years ago I purchased a large quantity of advertised 147gr FMJ .308" military pulls from the 1960s. I was told that they were pulled from 7.62x51 NATO rounds.

I've always just taken it for what was advertised as 147gr but recently I was loading some of this stuff (just fun plinkers) and decided to take some weight measurements as I was starting a new load for my SIL and his new 308win.

I found these bullets weight range from 143.4gr to 146gr. None were 147gr as expected. Did the military have any kind of specs that were to be adhered to...or was it that these may have been manufactured so quickly due to the VN war that they didn't care about specs at that point?

Or...maybe the spec was pretty wide say 143gr - 150gr was the window.

Anyway...I loaded them up starting with minimum load data numbers for a 150gr....so they should certainly be a safe load.

Any insight welcome.

redhawk

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I've pulled a couple hundred plus bullets of various foreign 'NATO' 7.62x51 (TZ, OFV, others). Most have been 144 grains +/- a grain, few have made 147. What military arsenal might(?) make a difference.

[Larry Gibson]

There are numerous reasons for "pulldown" bullet availability. Inaccuracy [not meeting the accuracy standards] is a primary one, especially for 7.62 NATO ammunition. Not meeting the weight standard +/- Additionally, pull down bullets usually come from different lots of ammunition that had the bullets made from several different machines during varying years of manufacture. Thus a large variance in weight and even canalure location on pulldown M80 bullets.

Back in '05 I ordered several thousand M80 pulldowns and found a large discrepancy of weight and form as mentioned, the same as with all other such commercial pull downs [pull downs from a specific lot of milsurp ammunition that one pulls down himself is another story]. I have tried weight sorting, visual sorting based on base, by length and by location of canalure groove. Appears the bullets were made in 8 - 10 different machines (dies). Accuracy improved a little after all the sorting but they are still 3 +/- moa bullets regardless of the load or rifle shot out of. My suspicion is accuracy or the lack of was the reason this last bunch I got were pulled down. I have just accepted the accuracy level and use them anyway.

In the past I have gotten some lots of pull downs commercially that shot very well, usually 2 - 2 1/2 moa but not often. Also, in the past, Winchester 147 gr M80 bullets that were production over runs were available. Those shot quite well.

[redhawk0]

Thanx guys...I figured it might be something like that. Mine are all identical in appearance (crimp groove), and they do mic to 0.308". It was just the weight that seemed inconsistent. Some of the bases show them fuller than others. (a 1/8" hole where the internal lead is visible). I don't think they were poured...but swagged that way.

My question was more out of curiosity than an actual issue from the bullets. 3moa(ish) from these is fine...they are just for fun anyway.

much appreciated.

redhawk

[1Hawkeye]

If you look up the projectile weight specks in an old copy of cartridges of the world GI .30 cal ball was allowed a 5.0 gr weight variation. I guess back then it was fine but now a days yikes.

[redhawk0]

Thanx Hawkeye....that's what I was looking for.

much appreciated.

redhawk

[GhostHawk]

5 years ago Tulammo in 7.62x39 was no better. Big swings in bullet weights, powder charges (as much as 5 grains difference from low to high in one box)

When I stopped shooting cheap ammo in my SKS and started shooting my own reloads accuracy went way up.

[LynC2]

After adopting the 5.56 as our infantry rifle round the primary use of 7.62 was for machineguns. They certainly weren't very concerned about match grade accuracy as some built in dispersion was considered desirable in that role.

[Larry Gibson]

Over the course of many years I delinked a lot of 7.62 NATO US M80 ball and shot it in several M1As, M14s and even several M24s. That M80 ranged from 1960s through 1990s production. I never found any that exceeded the accuracy requirement as prescribed in TM 9-1305-200. I found several different lots of late '60s and early '70s production (TW, WCC and LC) that actually were as accurate [ 2 moa or less] as M118 (White Box) out to 600 yards shooting 22 shot strings [600 yard slow fire stage of the NMC].

However, as I previously mentioned, many "pull down" bullets come from lots not meeting the accuracy standards of the TM.

[samari46]

Swiss GPII is almost like match ammunition in my K31, it's that good. Think the British bullets in their 7.62Nato ammo weigh in at 144 grains. U.S. M2 ball is supposed to be 150 grains but there is a dispersion factor when used in machine guns as it refers to the beaten zone where the bullets are targeted. Same with the M80 used in U.S. 7.62 ammo. The only mil surp ammo I've tried that shot well was Hirtehpatronenfabrik or HP for short made in Austria.Bullets that measure 7.82-.7.83 shoot very well, bullets that measure 7.80-7.81 don't shoot as well. I had two lots of this ammo and broke down a couple rounds from each lot both had boxer primers. Although some were reloaded with Berdan primers.
I have one lot of West German MEN 7.62 ammo that shot well as well. Frank

[Winger Ed.]

Not sure how they do it now, but in the old days, a buddy had spent several years on the Marine Corps shooting team.
He said due to the minor variances and tolerances in GI ball, making them 'look bad', they didn't even use it for practice and training.

With the mix-match of lots and manufacturers possible in your pull downs-
the problem would be exacerbated compared to having them all from one lot.

Yes, there are specs. on military ammo. Even if all your pull downs were from the same lot:
There was a reason they were pulled apart and scraped out.
Whatever the reason was, I doubt if it was because they were perfect and held to sub MOA groups.

[waksupi]

Take some modern premium bullets and weigh them. Inconsistent weights.

[Larry Gibson]

"He said due to the minor variances and tolerances in GI ball, making them 'look bad', they didn't even use it for practice and training."


For Marines, that doesn't surprise me. In the Army we used M80 ball (boxed, in stripper clips and delinked) with rack grade M14s for position and timing (cadence of getting into position, shooting and reloading) drills for the rapid fire (RF) stages of the NMC. Used the six inch 25 yard pistol target at 100 yards understanding that shooting for "score" was not the point. Rather to simply hold "black" while practicing and perfecting the cadence/timing and movements of the RF stages. Once the shooter could consistently hold the black during those drills the switch was made to match grade M14s and M118 (White Box) ammunition shooting the 200 and 300 yard RF stages and the slow fire stages of the NMC at actual distance. Didn't burn out match rifle barrels or shoot up match ammunition that way just learning the "drills".

[gschwertley]

"Location of cannelure groove" as mentioned above. Since I shoot this type of bullet in gas guns (crimped bullet), this lot variation in some of the pull-down bullets drives me nuts. Not only in military pull-downs, but also in factory seconds sold by Midway, et al. In the case of the latter, I suspect mixed lots are the reason for factory seconds classification in some cases.

As to the military pull downs. I used to buy pull-downs from Jeff Bartlett in Kentucky. This has been quite a few years ago but he told me that companies bid for the government contract to dispose of condemned ammunition. Different contractors used different methods of demilling the ammo. But the reasons that ammo was condemned and sent for destruction were many. Improper storage was probably a common reason. Physical damage. Observable or reported defect outside manufacturing tolerance within certain lots would cause recall of an entire lot. Discovery that one particular component was later found to have some kind of defect unknown at the time of manufacture. Stuff like that.

It isn't just with military ammo. Rocky Mountain Reloaders does a nice business largely selling pulled bullets, factory seconds, overruns and that sort of thing. I think a lot of his stuff comes from Vista Outdoor companies (Speer, Federal). I've bought pulled bullets and casings from them.

But if you want to avoid hassles like lot variations, don't be cheap like me, just go ahead and pay full boat for the good, first line product.